Does school uniform really matter?(68 Posts)
Probably been done to death many times so just hide this if the topic bores you!
Does school uniform really make that much difference? For a number of years we lived abroad and DCs went to school without uniform. I know that some people worry about school becoming a fashion parade. We didn?t see that but does that really happen? I can understand on mufti days there is the novelty value but day in day out do you get that?
Does a school uniform foster a sense of pride in the school and a school ethos? Again my experience doesn?t really convince me of this. DS belongs to Army Cadets. He is very proud of this and spends over an hour each week polishing his boots and ironing his uniform. On the other hand his school uniform looks like it is ready for the rag man. So I suppose my experience says that pride in the organisation fosters pride in the uniform, not the other way round.
Does a school uniform somehow help young people get ready for the world of work? Certainly looking round Europe I would have to say that the British (and I include myself in this) are not better dressed than our continental (non school uniform wearing) counterparts.
In my opinion young people do need some sort of guidance especially at the start to make sure that they are dressed appropriately. What is appropriate can depend on circumstance ? what is suitable for a History lesson is not suitable for playing rugby.
My suggestion would be to have a very simple dress code and leave it at that. This does not stop classroom discussion around selecting clothes for different situations especially as students get closer to applying for jobs/apprenticeships/college.
"I don;t mind uniform, but why does it all have to be from one shop only, and each piece be set.
What is wrong with it being black trousers (for boys AND girls as they are warmer and more practical), a white polo shirt, and a jumper in the school colour, knitted by grandma, and so warm and cosy in these horrid cold days."
What's wrong with it, is endless back-and-forth between kids, teachers and parents with trousers that are really more like jeans, and a white shirt that isn't really a polo shirt and is too tight, and a low-cut revealing jumper, etc. If the rules aren't fairly strict they just get broken, and a simple way to try to enforce them is to say that the uniform has to be from one (or preferably 2 or 3) shop(s).
oh come on a polo shirt is a polo shirt. I really resent having to pay £10 for one with a logo on it from a specific shop when they come in packs of three for a couple of quid each. as so much 'education'it is just anti-parent.
Our secondary has a very strict uniform policy - it is one of the (many) reasons we chose it for our first choice school.. - I do like that the school has a bit of an obsession with obedience - the school has no problems with disruption in class - unlike the other school where pretty much anything goes... Sometimes the ethos goes through the whole school.
If DD's school wants all uniform from the same shop they can try to find something in that shop that fits her. I'm not doing it. I struggle enough to come up with 'roughly the right colour' (in this case a very tall, hipless, round tummied child; but same probs with her beanpole brother, who practically has to pleat his trousers round his midriff as he cold probably get both legs down one leg hole).
Bytheway: presumably it works at your school, but at DS's te atitude was very much 'Gosh, people are picking on you? I wonder what it is about YOU that makes them do that?'
Gah, can't type this morning!
DS1 is at 6th form now, where it's much easier to kit him out as he can wear skinny jeans (which still bag on him, admittedly). The dress code is 'covered, clean, decent' which seems to work.
Some of the sixth forms in town specify 'business dress'. Well, for one of our most successful friends, that would be cycling shorts and bare feet (was a bit startled by that one when I met him in the office!)
My dds go to primary school and they wear a uniform - recently changed to blue shirt/tie/v neck jumper/grey skirt/pinafore/trousers. The jumper costs £12, the tie came free with the jumper and everything else can be bought from wherever you want.
I have noticed since dd2 started P1 that I haven't had to get her new clothes as often - she is wearing the uniform for so long during the day,she usually just keeps bits and pieces of it on until bath time.
In my dd's case it stops agonising over what to wear and makes it a lot quicker to get ready for school. I dread the day when uniform is over. You get into co-ordinating outfits etc. I think they're essential for secondary.
I agree with uniforms bringing equality. Even if there is a simple dress code, some people may only be able to afford a couple of skirts and others will never wear the same thing twice. Very few parents would buy 6 or 7 different uniform skirts, but someone could easily have that many skirts/ trousers.
The proportion of girls who make their uniform skirts revealing is fairly small at least in my experience. To my mind this is the sort of thing that a simple dress code should deal with.
Encouraging pretty uniforms for girls is in my opinion part of the objectification of girls. It is encouraging girls to dress for school so that they look nice rather than that they dress for the rigours of a school day. It is encouraging girls to be ornamental and not necessarily practical.
What I keep seeing even on this thread is that school uniform is a convenience to parents. There seems to be no real evidence that it improves behaviour or attainment.
I suspect that in schools with strict uniform policy the uniform is used as a way of quickly identifying those students (and their parents) who the school feels dont belong. Very much a 'fit in or eff off' attitude. This is fine in the independant sector - you pay your money and take your choice. However I think that this is intrinsically wrong in the state sector. In the state sector we largely have no choice.
I don't think that those who dislike uniform will change their views or vice-versa.
Personally I am more inclined to chose a school with a strict uniform-code than one with no uniform.
So if a pretty uniform objectifies girls, does an unattractive one (and crikey there are some awful ones round here - peppermint shirts with brown jumpers and skirts) have the opposite effect?
Anyone who thinks that the majority of girls won't dress to look nice is kidding themselves. Uniform or no uniform. We are biologically destined to seek to make ourselves more attractive - as are all animals (and birds, fish etc).
I'd also prefer my daughter to think that trying to get away with a blue jumper instead of maroon is enough of a rebellion that she doesn't go for more extreme methods of shocking me. I believe in giving children strong boundaries to kick against.
I'm a teacher (might be relevant)
I think primary school uniform is a waste of time. Blazers for 6 year olds? Get over it!!
But at secondary (dd1 just went to high school this year, and I'm a secondary teacher by training, though I work in adult ed now) - I like it. Kids still customise it, but there's no fashion police going on. Maybe with shies, but no one cares if your school shirt is from asda, tesco, M&S or John Lewis. We have a school issue embroidered jersey, so no arguing there!
I'd do away with it at primary (if it wasn't a polo shirt and trackies - my younger kids school is shirt and tie!) but keep it for high school.
I also think that it's going to depend on what the school considers the uniform to be 'for'. If it's about practicality (comfortable, hardwearing clothes and shoes that mean no need to think too much about what to put on in the morning) then fair enough. But the more pissy the uniform (ties, fiddly fastenings, hats, impractical blazers, an obsession with sock colours etc) the more likely the aim is to make the children submit and conform - and also, if it can only be bought from one expensive shop, to keep the common, poor families away.
I am not interested in school simply from a point of view of behaviour and attainment. It should be a happy, relaxed place. I really think an element uniform (not ridiculously strict with blazers, ties etc.) helps that. I agree some state schools are a bit ridiculous about it (polo shirts embroidered with school logo for a silly price, ties on 4 yr olds, black shoes only, no trainers, and blazers) and I would agree with your argument there that it helps people 'stand out' if they haven't adhered to it. Our school is v relaxed, basically a red jumper, grey skirt/ trousers and white polo top. That, for me, is ideal.
I LOATHE school uniforms. I spend a vast amount of cash on stuff in ugly colours that don't suit my children, and polo shirts made of nasty synthetics that will end up in landfill. I didn't have a primary school uniform, I wasn't any less interested in learning than my dds. Its just a moneymaker for schools. Oh and my dds head said she "wouldn't recognise any of them" without it . I suppose I can vaguely see the argument for uniforms in secondary school, but even then I would prefer to see the children in normal clothes instead of drudging about in grey with maroon acrylic jumpers <shudders>.
I have to say as the mother of a DS as well as DDs, it made my teeth itch to see the difference between the girls' uniform price and what I paid for DS's. The boys could get navy trousers and blue polo shirts from anywhere. There was no school logo on the shirt. You could get whole packets of them for a school year. The girls' uniform had to be bought from two suppliers -- hence the amount of swoppage. The older girls' polo shirts had banded bottoms and they pretty much had to be bought from the suppliers too as they were hard to find. The reason to have the banded bottom white polos was to deal with the so called problem of girls untucking their ordinary polo shirts from their skirts and wearing them outside the top of the skirts. This was done by the girls to conceal the fact that their skirts were rolled up.. Kerrrrraaaaazyyy.
The difference in cost of outfitting a girl (if you bought the uniform and didn't use a hand me down) and a boy was substantial.
We have had experience both of uniform and non-uniform (roughly 50/50). I agree with Pyrrah that views arent changed by argument but certainly ours were changed by experience. When DD started at school in the UK we were very keen on uniform. However, we moved abroad and DCs went to non-uniform school. The novelty value wore off after about a week.
When we returned to the UK school uniform did feel strange and still does. The nonesensical restrictions about tie wearing no matter the weather. The weird obsession with proper black shoes. My DCs all walked a mile or more to school so wore out their shoes far quicker than they grew out of them. No way was I sending DD to school in pretty princess patent leather school shoes - they would have looked like a dog had chewed them by the end of the week.
Mathanxiety, I agree about the cost of school uniform but the other problem is availability. You can buy cheap uniform in the official 'back to school' season but you are on your own if one of your DC decides to have a mid-year growth spurt.
M and S do uniform all year round, and it is reasonable though not on a par with supermarkets. I generally have to top up a little with M and S but it's still cheaper than most clothes.
I think it would be better to instil a sense of acceptance in children of those who are different from an early age. Making everyone 'equal' artificially isn't really sorting the problem. We have a serious issue with bullying in UK schools, yet virtually all of them wear uniform.
And of course, uniform doesn't even do that. Kids know who has the tatty old blazer. Who doesn't style their hair in a 'trendy' way. Who has unfashionable or old scuffed shoes.
Non uniform days are a complete red herring too, of course students will go to town on their outfit when they only have a couple of days per year to show it off!
I'd much rather an absolute zero tolerance approach on bullying of every kind from day 1 of school to be honest, than pretending everything is great because you have a load of kids in ill fitting polyester blazers
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