Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

(652 Posts)

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tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 00:56:58

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

Metabilis3 Fri 27-Apr-12 17:45:02

The Grammars that get the best results allocate places according to test score and only take proximity into account for the final place, if there is a draw on the score achieved. If Tiffins were to change its policies to favour depth of pockets over merit that would be a sad day, I reckon.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 17:46:59

@soupdragon: Do Sutton parents like that? I still remember complaints to the School Adjudicator and public meetings.

Besides Nonsuch and Wallington girls have most places on catchment basis and their catchment is also very narrow (5.25km and 6.7 km respectively).

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 17:47:09

I had to move to get into the catchment for my preferred schol - i didn';t try to rewrite the catchment to suit me. hmm

if you prefer how the other 90% of schools work, then move to one of their catchments.

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 17:49:14

I think catchment grammars are quite nice because they have a more local feel and find the Tiffins a bit hot-housey personally, but then clearly lots of parents disagree - hence the high number of applications.

More grammars is one solution - then you can have a local catchment grammar AND a super-selective grammar to pick from.

Why not campaign for that?

SardineQueen Fri 27-Apr-12 17:50:47

As far as I am concerned, schools near me have places based on performance in examinations.

So to me that is quite usual.

I also think that introducing a "being able to afford a nearby house" criteria goes against the concept of entrance on ability.

I really don't understand the problem with this.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 17:53:53

@metabilis3: if Tiffin adopt proximity rules, how it would be favouring depth of pockets? Kingston and surroundng areas also have some low income areas and comparatively low price housing. Do you find housing cheap in Ealing/Greenford/Harrow?

Secondly, if the cutoff score goes down to 220 from 226, that would hardly make any difference to the quality of the intake. Also those who live nearby, could study better due to less travelling time. They would also be able to participate in after school activities. They would also not need to catch the bus at 6:30 am as some children have to do now.

Currently, Tiffins are isolated from the local community. Schools need to be part of the local community; They are continously scoring lowest on community cohession in the Ofsted reports.

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 17:54:27

Catchment grammars are intrinsically fairer in poorer areas - as nearly all kids can afford to live in the area. Hence they prob work quite fairly in Kent, say, but not in posher areas like Kingston, as it is so expensive anyway. Hence it would become selection based on ability to afford house prices.

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 17:55:37

Sorry - cross-posted.

Where is cheap near Kingston? All seems fairly pricey to me!

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 17:56:03

Not ansered my earlier points I see - why should the school change rather than you move??

higgle Fri 27-Apr-12 17:59:21

We have several grammar schools in Gloucestershire, all without catchment areas. This means if you are a parent with high aspirations for your child you get them into Pates and drive a long way. If you are a lazy parent like me you send them to the local grammar and they go on the bus.

ReallyTired Fri 27-Apr-12 18:07:28

Kingston is a funny shaped borough. Should children who live in Molesey / Hampton/ Teddington get similar priority to children who live in the Maldens?

I think the issue is the boundaries of Kingston. This throws up odd anomolies other than education. It is silly that people in Molesey cannot use the Surbition refuse dump or Kingston libraries.

I suppose the answer is for Tiffins to set up an anexe like a Kent grammar school has done in Sevenoaks. However kingston has many outstanding secondaries, that Tiffins is bit of an irrevelence.

CecilyP Fri 27-Apr-12 18:35:33

@ CecilyP; Children from Chesington would have far better chance in my proposal than at present. Chessington is far nearer than Harrow or Slough.

Can't argue with that. Do you know how many children come from as far afield as that?

corlan Fri 27-Apr-12 18:51:22

tiffinboys - you say you have evidence that most pupils at Tiffin live very far away - what statistics do you have? I'm genuinely interested.

legallady Fri 27-Apr-12 19:10:59

Might be worth mentioning that the Tiffin schools haven't always been open selection. Some posts on here suggest that the ethos/character of the school will change for the worse if open selection is removed.

I attended Tiffin Girls when you had to live in the Borough (with the exception of one or two pupils) and it was still an excellent school. I suppose then we didn't have the neurosis inducing league tables so people weren't as fixated with which schools were "the best." After the Greenwich Judgement, the school moved to selection on a different catchment basis from living in the Borough.This was scrapped, however, when it was seen that pupils living in the South of the Borough were not gaining entry in as many numbers as those in the North.

Not advocating which system is better by the way, just wanted to make it clear that the move to open selection is a relatively new thing in the 150 year history of the school grin

AllotmentLottie Fri 27-Apr-12 19:20:09

Where is the level playing field for the children in Ealing, Southall and Greenford you propose to exclude? There are no grammars available to them.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 19:49:40

@allotmentlady: Ealing is in the catchment of Langley Grammar; Out of catchment children cannot even sit for Slough test there.

@legallady: you are so right. Tiffins have no local charecter now. In fact, some one claiming to be a Tiffin Teacher said on another forum that 'we have no responsibility to the local children'. Even after Greenwich, school had proximity criteria, which was upheld even in 1992 Judicial Review.

BeingFluffy Fri 27-Apr-12 20:00:45

Tiffinboys you seem peculiarly badly informed about TGS in particular. There are aren't any after school clubs (apart from the sports on the adjoining site). If the girls are all so stressed travelling why are they consistently near the top of the league tables? The local community does make use of the Tiffin Girls sports facilities etc which is more than can be said for my other child's local school. It would be nice if we all had local grammar schools but that is not the way education in the London area works anymore. I would like to work near my home but I can't do that either. There are NO grammar schools in central London. Why should my child be discriminated against - they scored a higher mark in the test than some of the local applicants - though as already stated most of my child's friends at the school are from the local area. To be honest I think the new admissions procedures for TGS will benefit local applicants anyway, as no doubt through networking, they will be able to communicate what they are looking for.

BeingFluffy Fri 27-Apr-12 20:13:11

Tiffinboys - How come you claim to be representing the local community when you (or your buddies) were saying on the "elevenplusexams" website that hardly anybody in the local community even bothered to comment on the new admissions proposals?

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 20:53:19

Any reason why there are no after school activities at TGS? Is it because all girls have to rush to catch no. 65 or walk to train station to get on with their long travel back home? And then do home work? If they were within 5 mile zone, they could do even better.

You are right about the second point. Few parents write to the Schools because over the last 20 years, they have seen the attitude of the School Governors. Now we don't write to the schools; we will put pressure on them. As these are Kingston Schools, they would eventually have to listen to the local people and have to look after the local children. Example of Reading Schools is the very recent one.

BeingFluffy Fri 27-Apr-12 21:04:00

Absolute bollocks - most at TGS come from the local area, not commuting for hours as you want to put across. In my child's class I would say that well over 90% are within 3 miles of the school, let alone 5 miles.

The consultation was on the Borough's website - anyone could have commented on it online and from the comfort of their own home - but very few chose to. I don't believe you represent the local community at all.

If your kids cannot get in then don't try and change the rules for that that can.

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 21:15:55

Repeated - why don't you move if you would prefer a catchment-based grammar? Why assume the school should change to accommodate you instead?

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 21:17:23

Nobody has forced you or anyone else to live in kingston - others move to areas because they like the local schools. It's not rocket science.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 21:19:30

Why should we move, when we have a grammar school with 4 mile radius and If our children meet the ability standard......

Why Tiffins should not have proximity criteria when other 95% grammars have this criteria?

mumofjust1 Fri 27-Apr-12 21:24:00

My friends son has been offered a place at tiffins. He lives in Greenford

corlan Fri 27-Apr-12 21:28:15

Once again I'd ask - where is your evidence that the majority of pupils live 'very
very far away'?

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