A B C ......

[Slink]

My dd is 2.7yrs and is at preschool. She has been there 5 weeks and doing well.

I want to teach her the ABC she can say it and recognises the letters but i want to reach her to write them and her name and then 123 etc am i going to fast? i have brought these flash cards and a star book but am i being a pushy parent? i wasn't a bright kid at school bullied alot, so want to give DD a head start.

[soyabean]

Slink I'm not a teacher but in my opinion, unless your dd is actively asking about letters and numbers, I would leave it for now, and spend the time reading loads of good books together, talking about the pictures and counting things if shes keen to. Also counting trees, cars, whatever wehn you're out, rather than using flash cards etc.
I think most reception teachers would say that the biggest diasadvantages some children face are not being able to communicate well, or appreciate books. These are things that all parents can do best.
Letters will be taught later on at nursery probably. The other difficulty can be that schools all use 'ah' 'buh' 'kuh' if you know what I mean, rather than Ay Bee See, so it can be confusing for children to have learnt one at home and another at school.
Hope this is useful

[chatee]

spend time playing games that will help her development in the long run,
jigsaws, reading stories, drawing, playdough,watching good kids videos at times...they are only little once...

[anais]

I agree, unless she's expressing interest herself, then leave it for a little while. Otherwise you may be running the risk of putting her off. I would say she's definately too young to start writing - she does not physically have sufficient control to do this.

My advice would be to read to her lots, and encourage her fine motor skills with things like puzzles and duplo. And just talk to her lots. She will pick up a lot, and when she expresses interest you can take it a little further and teach her numbers and letters.

[bunny2]

Ds, 3.5 still doesnt have the control to form letters so I'd guess 2.7 is probably too young. By introducing skills that your daughter cannot yet master you could affect her confidence. I agree with all the advice posted here, concentrate on communication and vocabulary, your daughter will be taught her alphabet at school.

[Eowyn]

my dd is just over 3.5 & has recently managed to hold a pencil reasonably properly & loves practising letters etc - but a year ago wasn't at all interested, think it has all happened since she was 3ish. I had flash cards ages ago & she just used to throw them all over the floor so i hid them for ages, but is now really keen.
So would advise, be led by her & see if she's interested every so often, but don't bother if she isn't. Hope that helps.

[Angeliz]

Slink, i'd tend to agree with the others, if she is enjoying it then i guess it would be o.k but if she gets frustrated then she might just decide that that is not a fun thing to do......even later on.my dd is the same age as yours and sounds the same, knows the letters but cant write them!

[aloha]

You can't make her cleverer by pushing flashcards IMO. Read to her, talk to her and play with her. That's what will make the difference. The idea of the head start may not work. There is lots of evidence that children who are pushed to achieve early on don't exceed their peers by the time they are seven or so - sometimes the reverse. In most of europe children don't learn to read etc until they are seven and they very quickly overtake British children. I know how you feel. I worry that ds is going to be as rubbish at sport as I was (he's a particularly clumsy, unathletic child) but I really don't think I can do much to advance his abilities except give him lots of opportunities to run about and climb on the slide at the park etc. Go at your child's pace and enjoy her for what she is and don't project your anxieties on her - and all that is the excellent advice that was given to me by fellow mumsnetters when I posted about my gorgeous but clumsy son. I think it's good advice and I'm trying to act on it.

[SueW]

My DD is in Y2 and I am seeing even more the reasoning behind not starting school until that age. Suddenly the children who couldn't read so well are catching up with those who started early and those who couldn't run so well are becoming more co-ordinated. DD's not a runner and is thought to be clumsy by some in our family (because she walks into doors) but she is incredibly graceful in dancing and pretty good at handstands, cartwheels, etc. so obviously not ocmpletely unco-ordinated.

Slink it may help your DD if you give her opportunity to explore materials - lego, duplo as mentioned - and if you want to encourage letter writing perhaps mixing some cornflour and water (magical stuff) and letting her draw circles and lines in it with her fingers, or doing something similar with sand.

DD knew the alphabet song, long before she could say the alphabet or understand it!

[aloha]

I beleive in some countries they test children's readiness for proper school by asking them to touch their hand to the opposite foot on both sides - unless they are coordinated enough to do this they are not considered coordinated to sit at lessons or to learn to write etc.

[Jimjams]

Agree with aloha. TBH I find the idea of using flashcards with a 2.7 year old a bit odd. The early years of school aren't really all about regurgatating facts (although that comes too soon in this country imo) - they're about things like learning about seasons, and the world around you. I think you'd be better off taking walks and talking to her about things you see, taking trips to different places, telling her historical stories, and dressing up etc. Far better (and more fun) than a pile of flashcards.

if you do want to go the flashcard route then make that more interesting by turning it into a posting game or something. I have used flashcards with my son to teach vocabulary (as he has a major language problem and isn't learning language at all- has to be "taught" every single word), but after a year or so of them (he's now 4) he now switches off whenever he sees them and we've had to move onto other methods which are more rewarding for him. I guess I'm saying even if she enjoys that to begin with (as its novel) you may well just switch her off the whole thing.

As for letters- again make it fun, cornflour as someone mentioned, or grwo cress seeds in the shape of different letters. Make it about more than just remembering a letter- there's plenty of time for that.

[robinw]

message withdrawn

[LIZS]

I wouldn't push anything formal yet. She will ask when she is ready provided she is given enough opportunity through sharing books and conversation whilst doing activities or being out and about. I'd agree with others that expanding her vocabulary and working on motor skills through play are more important at this age.

dd is interested in what words say and will copy her brother "reading" books but she is nowhere ready for "teaching" - they just do not have long enough concentration spans or enough coordination. We have a TomyMegaSketcher which has some activity sheets for joing dots, forming letters and making pictures, which I like because it is less messy than pen and paper ! She is getting an Imagination Desk for Christmas because she loves to colour.

[Bozza]

Slink my DS is a similar age and I raised a thread on this a few weeks ago. So if you could find that it had lots of good advice on it. DS does want to learn his letters and now has got them all except q and z. I have taught him 'ah' 'buh' as soyabean says and lower case but he keeps asking about capitals. He has a puzzle from M&S which is a train alphabet (I think they do a boat now) which he does nearly every day (his choice I'm sick of it) which has helped a lot.

We were driving along the other day and he took his hat off and said "is that a 'm', mummy?) and promptly got all the letters on the front of his hat (it was from mexx). I was coping quite well until he started on the care label! So he has a genuine interest and also a sense of achievement when he learns a new one, gets it right and lots of praise etc.

Personally I think he is a bit young to do writing yet. I've been encouraging him to draw shapes (circle, line etc).

And DS loves his shapes/colours flashcards. But I'm bored with these too - we just rattle through them so I am going to get him some more challenging ones. But because he enjoys them despite the negative comments from others on here. He definitely sees them as a game.

[kmg1]

SueW and others - I'm intrigued by this assertion that children 'catch up' with early achievers, as this has not been my experience. Does anyone know of any research or non-anecdotal articles? Links?

Last year I helped in school listening to readers in yr 1, and was surprised at the range of abilities - but it is quite normal. This year I am helping in yr 3, and was astonished to find the range has widened almost immeasurably. I discussed this with the teacher, and she agreed. She said that although poor readers at age 7 may be average readers at age 10, in the meanwhile they have missed out on many learning opportunities because of the reading difficulties.

Sorry, bit off topic here, but as I say I'm intrigued by it.

[Jimjams]

I think that what people mean kmg is that if you llok at other countries where reading is introduced at a later age than here (so everywhere else in the world! ) then there is no difference between children's acheivements as a whole. Of course there will be wide variation within the group. if you are helping out in year 1 then there will already have been a lot of reading input etc iyswim, so you will already have divided the children who find reading easy from those who struggle. But if you took that same group and introduced reading in year 2 you would probably see the same dividion in year 3. In other words introducing reading early does bugger all to help slow readers except label them as failures early on!

If they are missing out on learning opportunities then surely the learning opportunities should be altered to avoid the need for reading - certainly at KS1 level. I agreeit does become more of a necessity at KS2

[SueW]

Perfect Jimjams - exactly what I would to have written.

[kmg1]

OK - thanks SueW and Jimjams - I misunderstood.

[hmb]

And a lot more resources (esp teachers and TAs) need to be put into helping children with reading problems in KS2. In our area a child needs to be 5 years (!!!!!) behind his/her chronological age before they can get statemented help for literacy problems. Which explains why we get kids coming to school at the age of 11 with a reading age of 6. And do they get removed from classes to get them the help they need? Nope, I get to try to teach them science, when they can't read what I put on the board. Poor devils have spent 5 years 'failing', is it any wonder that they often become disruptive.

[SueW]

Here's some links

BBC news 1998 . I think this is related to the Panorama programmme which looked at primary education on the continent/in Scandinavia and also covered the research mentioned in the US. Unfortunately if you follow the link, you can't watch the prog live as it suggests!

There's a huge parliamentary report from Dec 2000 here if you have lots of time to spare. This bit about scientific research points out that:

"Other skills, such as reading, writing and maths require teaching, but there is no convincing evidence that teaching these skills early (before about six) is advantageous. International studies suggest that a later school starting age (age six or seven) might be beneficial, provided that school is preceded by high­quality pre­school provision."

[kmg1]

I'm actually completely torn. I did German at university, lived out there, have friends out there, and have always been an advocate of late formal schooling - and still am in some ways. BUT I'm no longer a fan of non-introduction of formal literacy until, say, age 7. Both by sons are very keen readers, and I can see the joy this gives them, but also the advantages this gives them. Of course I am not saying that all 4.5 yr olds should be reading fluently, many are not ready even to start at this age. But if they are ready, they should be given every encouragement.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Your dd is a very able and keen reader isn't she SueW? Are you saying you would prefer her to be in a system where she wasn't reading at this stage?

I don't want to be at all confrontational on this - I normally find myself agreeing completely with you both - SueW and Jimjams - so a bit of a shock to find myself 'in opposition'

[Jimjams]

kmg- I have no problems with a child learning to read early, before school etc if they want to. I learned to read before school- I was desperate to read and I spent a lot of time in the library getting new books. I do think that is different though than forcing reading on all children at age 4- some just aren't interested or ready. Often they're not ready as they can't sit still for long enough to concentrate- so school becomes a whole negative experience.

I do think that in this country there is far too much emphasis on reading early, and not enough on whole child development. I don't see why it has to be a race. As long as children can read fairly fluently by the later years of primary school then great. I would prefer the emphasis on early years education to be about play and developing social skills and exploring the world rather than about reading and writing.

Early reading may bring great enjoyment and be good for some children, but for many it does nothing except turn them off education.

Now if anyone has any ideas at all on how to teach ds1 to read I'd love to hear them! (I'm quite keen for him to learn as soon as he can as I think it'll help his language development). He's taught himself a few words. I've been making some books up for him with words and symbols (so the pecs symbol is printed above the word) which he loves. Any other ideas pass them on please

[hmb]

Jimjams, tie it into kinesthetic learning? Jolly phonics might be better for your ds, as there is a lot of physical learning of the letters. I think it tends to be better for the physical learners

[tigermoth]

I've decided not to try and push my 4 year old at all. I had intended to do more pre school worksheets with him and get him forming letters but have now decided against it. I too wanted to give him a head start because he will be the youngest in his year. But he really wasn't that interested in worksheets - he did a few, got the hang of drawing up dots and matching pairs etc but that's it. He likes books, he's intersted in things around him, his fine motor skills seem OK - lots of consruction toys in our house. I do believe he will catch up eventually.

When he starts school in January he will not be able to write his name or recognise specific letters. He has no grasp of phonetics ie things that begin with 'buh' or 'luh'. He knows the alphabet song and can count to about 20, knows what 2, 3, 4, 5, sweets look like but that's about it. Gulp.

For better or worse I am putting my trust in his teachers and will back up their methods at home. I am not going to worry about it. I am not expecting things to even out in class until the end of year 1 at the earliest. I have absolutely no idea how he will get on academically. Before my oldest ds started school, I felt he had academic abilty. My yongest ds plays his cards closer to his chest, so I am not so sure.

He is confident and communicates well. He is not too bad at listening. I think, for him, this is all I can ask for for now.

I do agree that if your pre school child really wants to learn the 3 Rs there's no harm in starting - making things a game. I'm sure I did more pre school preparation with my oldest ds, but this was led by him.

[kmg1]

WOW Thanks for those links SueW - fascinating stuff ... I can see I'm going to get nothing done today! BTW why does the government have these massive reports done, and then not follow up on the conclusions and recommendations!

I am interested that
'many of those giving evidence argued that the age of school entry was less important than the kind of curriculum and teaching young children encounter when they enter statutory schooling.'

My fundamental objection to starting school at 4 is not the formality or otherwise of the education, and the high/low staff:children ratios; but rather the fact that ds2 is there for 6.5 hrs a day, it's just far too long for a child that age.

[tigermoth]

jimjams, my youngest ds recognises toy trademark words. He watches toy ads on TV - loves these to bits - and picks up the words when he sees them on other toys. 'hotwheels' 'matchbox' 'beyblades' etc. Not quite you had in mind I bet But I am sure it's through seeing and having toys, even seing toy ads - that he's learned about the importance of words and can pick out words form pictures - instructions, price, name etc. He does like books and stories, but toys make him far more excited.