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message for christie or anyone else that may know

17 replies

maggiems · 09/10/2005 12:34

Hope you dont mind me asking a question but noticed that you are a teacher . i was reading the Biif and Chip thread with interest and couldnt understand what the note from the teacher meant when she said encourage your child to tell you what their real names are, so now I know.My questions is around phonics. My twin boys aged 4 started school last month and knew most of their letters beforehand. However I'm not sure they are grasping the phonics thing at all and not sure how to encourage it. I say things like " can you think of other words that begin with S after giving an example, doing the action and making the sound but I might as well be talking to the wall. both boys are very good at recognising shapes, symbols, letters and numbers but I'm a bit worried about the sound thing. Am I expecting too much too soon. They are the yougest in their class and were premature by a month so should really not be going until next year but where we live we dont have an option. thanks for reading . maggie

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Christie · 09/10/2005 13:58

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maggiems · 09/10/2005 15:56

Christie, Thanks for your reassuring response.I'm glad you enjoyed your name being in a title of a thread! I'm just sorry the content was not more exciting. I think you are right, there is just too much to take in. I suppose I felt i should be doing everything. There seems to be so much going on at once, Biff and Chip, phonics, writing etc. I just cant imagine them doing it all, ever. They dont have a great attention span and are a bit impulsive. Homework is a bit of a chore. It goes something like this" Ok, you only have to colour 2 diamonds in the set" Reply - I want to colour in 4, and the thing is wrecked before you know it.
I also think one of my boys in particular is a visual learner. do you think phonics is still a good way to learn to read if thats the case and does the fact that someone who is good at letter recognition and shapes generally find they can keep up with reading, or maybe the shapes thing is really maths?. My gut feeling is that the traditional way would be better for him but not sure really. i was just thinking this morning that they could answer all the "What sound does a cow/cat/pig make at 18 months and here they are at 4 and dont seem to be able to connect the sound in words to the letters. Ah well, the joys.Sorry for the rant, ignore me if you have any sense

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Christie · 09/10/2005 20:01

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maggiems · 09/10/2005 20:08

Thanks, yes there are parent teacher consultations the week after next. Yes, the coat thing is going well. they had that last year in pre school but now they have to change into indoor shoes, put their outside shoes in their shoe bag, hang it up etc etc. However they are quite good at this now, but as you say a lot to remember. have had an awful weekend with them getting chicken pox on friday and they are COVERED in spots at the moment, so no school to get stressed about this week but of course I am stressing that they will miss out as well! thanks again for your messages - Maggie

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fimac1 · 09/10/2005 21:20

Maggiems

Just to let you know my son was very prem and had to go into school year in ahead of what he should have gone into, he is a July birthday and youngest but one in the year (now year 3). The school did not let me hold him back so I kept him home with me one day a week as he did not enjoy it and was basically far too young for the structured envioroment - he is doing well now and did really well in his year two stats but still does not like school even though work wise he is doing really well!

I think the UK system expects far too much at too young an age - in the US they will not teach them to read until they are 6, for instance as they say they are not ready before it?

Ds did get homework in Reception but I did not make a thing of it and sometimes it did not get done if he was really tired (which he generally was in his first year)

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maggiems · 10/10/2005 10:14

Hi fimac, thanks for your message. its a pain isnt it this "youngest in the class" business. Your DS seems to be doing really well. I think its the premmie thing that annoys me the most. They are a June birthday, not due until mid july and here in Northern ireland the cutoff date is 30/06.I think if they were due in june i would think "ah well they have to have a cut off" but the fact that there are children out there who are really older than them that have another year at pre school gets to me. I try and look on the bright side and think of them as getting an opportunity to learn more at an earlier stage. Another upside is that i can always blame their age if they are struggling. If they were able to wait another year and still struggling i would have no excuses!!

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fimac1 · 10/10/2005 16:26

Maggiems

Yes its a pain isn't it? His school is always oversubscribed so they could not guarantee a place (he was due Sept, but was 8 weeks early). Although I think he has 'coped' he would have really done with another year at home, esp as the first three were mainly spent ill! If he had been kept back a year he would be much happier imo, but as dh says, at least the work side of it is OK - hopefully your twins will be put in a young year group like my ds, so they are not with children that are 12 months older than them!

I suppose we will never stop worrying about them!

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Catflap · 11/10/2005 21:11

maggie, can I jump in? albeit a bit late, but I thought I'd add a bit as 'someone else that may know'

It would seem that your boys have an excellent visual memories and have picked up a lot of stuff really well. I am assuming that when you say they know their letters, you mean that they know that S = ess, F = eff etc.

Phonics is quite different and involves auditory, listening skills. It is essential for learning to read. So using the speech sounds and especially in sequence so they can hear how individual sounds make up words is useful. In everyday, you could explore this by saying things like 'time to put your t-oi-z away (spelt to illustrate sound) or please can you get me your t-e-d-ee etc etc so they are practising hearing individual speech sounds making a whole word in context.

I'm unsure as to the origin of this horrible 'what begins with...?' business. Sure, it can be lots of fun for those that get it, but it actually involves quite a lot of skills that can be hard to pick up - and I'm not sure what the fixation on word beginnings is all about. Some children find it easier to hear the middle sound - many find it easier to hear the final sound, just because it's the last one you hear.

"What begins with 'ssss'(sound)?" involves the following skills:

knowing that words have individual sounds
knowing that 'sss' is one of them
knowing that words are individual sounds in sequence
being able to discriminate those sounds, particularly in its initial position
knowing that you are talking about a word not the actual thing. I remember once asking a not so able child 'what does cat begin with?' and he answered, after much thought, "it's head??"

Asking 'what begins with 'S' (name) involves even more skills:
all of the above PLUS
knowing that the 'S' refers to a letter
recalling what sound that letter stands for
recalling the shape of that letter
knowing that words are sequences of letters and to recall the initial one
to possibly picture a word in their heads which is incredibly hard for children just beginning to read: we can do it because we've seen them for so many (ahem) years.

I know that all sounds terribly pedantic, but I believe it's important to understand for the child that finds things with phonics difficult. Although I spy games seem fun, they are not to the child in total bewilderment as to what on earth you are talking about.

I would suggest:
playing I spy with the ends or middle of words - "something ending with the 't' sound" and phrasing it a little more clearly

Or just ensuring they are aware of all the 40+ speech sounds and can hear them in words. Then matching them to letters and practising reading them in sequence to make words.

When you said you were doing the action, did you mean that they are familiar with Jolly Phonics?

There is more I could add, but I'll leave it there until I know more, or in case that is quite enough.

HTH

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maggiems · 12/10/2005 18:37

Catflap,

Thank you so much for replying. I was actually going to post a thread to you today becasue, since posting my original thread I have discovered that you are the resident expert in JP.

Yes, when I say the boys know their letters they can recognise them visually . I taught them by doing the Letterland jigsaw( I'm sure I can hear a sigh?). I'm sorry I did it now although as you say, learning to read is different from recognising letters. At first they only recognised the letters when they were in the letterland pictures but by the time they started school they could recognise most (only lower case) on paper. At school they take a letter per week and have done K, S, M, B, F and H . I know they do phonics and I think from a parents evening in June , Jolly phonics was mentioned. There are going to be parent /teacher consultations in a fortnight so I will be finding out a bit more then. The school has an excellent academic reputation and class sizes are relatively small with 18 in the class. The school also do the enriched cirriculum ( not sure if you have this in Gb , we are in NI) which means that the school take children at their own pace and dont force them to learn, yet doesnt hold children back. It is meant to particularly beneficial for young boys and was one of the reasons that i chose the school.
Each Monday they are encouraged to bring in something starting with the letter that they are going to do that week, hence my attempts to encourage them to think about this. However I am pleased to hear that you think a lot of skills are required to do this as this would have been my view as well. I also wondered about what the fascination is with the beginning of the word, i.e. making it a bit difficult to think about whats in the rest of the word. I suppose its just a way of trying to interest the children in words generally and allowing them to bring in a favourite toy.

At the moment I think all the concepts are a bit of a muddle , i.e.. my questions seem to go along the lines of "What sound does ess make?" "I can think of a word starting with ess and give them a clue? " " can you write letter ess" . They are also doing the OLT and am I asking questions on it too. They can write lots of letters without me writing them first , a bit at random on pages rather than between lines , at least they are random at home. Don't know what they do at school . They can make a good attempt at copying most letters. Ds2 in particular has make great strides at writing and drawing in the last month or so. Ds1 was always better than him , as he is at most things but DS2 is doing quite well now.

I picked up the actions associated with the letters from the JP website and am not sure if they are doing them in school. they didn't seem to be familiar with them when I showed them and in a way I think its just adding another layer of confusion to the whole thing. However I have found it useful as I think it shows me what sound I should be doing for each letter, e.g. m is mmmm not Muh.

The more I read about JP, a lot from your posts , the more I am convinced that it is a great way of learning to read and it would seem that once the the basic skills are acquired great progress can be made. However as I have already said I think the boysm particularly DS2 , are visual learners and I am a bit concerned that phonics, which is an auditory way of learning and requires good listening skills may not be easy for them. DS2 in particular is not a great listener and is a bit impulsive. He sees letters in lots of things all the time, e.g. if the branch of a tree is in a Y shape he will be quick to spot it. In your view is good recognition of letters of any benefit to learning to read? I have read articles saying yes, there is a correlation between learning to recognise letters early and being a good reader and others which say there is not.

Both boys were able to recognise familiar words like Tesco, STOP, Boots quite early, i.e. 2.5 yrs and have known every car name,symbol and shape since that age also. Nothing spectacular in that but I think it possibly highlights that they are quite visual . They are not getting "Words" for homework yet, but will do so after Halloween. I get the feeling that they will cope ok with recognising words as a whole but may struggle with sounding out the words and breaking them down.

Sorry for the ramble, I know the boys are young and hopefully will grasp the concept soon . I think I will stop the "can you think of something that's starts with" and focus on the basic sounds of the letters but I would be grateful for any more tips on getting them to grasp the concept , given their leaning towards visual learning. I am probably being a pushy parent and raise the issue too often which is causing a negative reaction like " I dont want to talk all too frequently" but I am keen that they keep up.

Also DS2's speech although well within the "normal" range is not as advanced as Ds1.I take it speech development is very important to the development of reading ability?

Thanks for your help and sorry for the lengthy post

Maggie

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Catflap · 12/10/2005 21:06

Ooh, interesting post - I shall take it a bit at a time.

Yes, I did make a slight groan at Letterland...! It's great for teaching recognition of letters, as you've discovered, but is horribly limiting as regards sounds and then becomes terribly confusing whilst trying to rectify this within their little methodolgy. You get many children who can only recognise them in the context of the Letterland materials - because they are so visual. You also get children who cannot get past 'annie apple' for describing that letter or sound... v frustrating.

A letter per week is very slow. It fits in with the enrished curriculum you speak of, but I think there is quite an interesting debate surrounding child-directed learning and 'formal' teaching. Briefly, I agree whole-heartedly with learning being more child-initiated and wish that the Foundation Stage philosophy here was continued into Key Stage 1. However, I do believe it is necessary to teach children some things - indeed, they are crying out for it in many areas. They know things are done/understood a specific way and they want to be able to do it. I don't believe any school, however it is organised has the people and resources to truly deal with this truly individually. So, if you are going to directly teach something, I do believe it is best to do it properly - and synthetic phonics is ideal to teach to young children in that it is so multisensory and works so fast - the children see immediate results.

I'm sure the 'beginning with' fixation does come from the fact that initial letters are used a lot with our adult literate world when using abbreviations and anacronyms. BBC, ITV, Maccy D's, PS2, KFC etc all use initial letters. People's initials of course. However, it does seem to have gone a bit too far with reading. - maybe your children could take in some objects with the chosen sound in the middle and end??!! That would be a bit different!

I think your concepts are a bit muddled - but only because that is how we have been taught and led to believe the world of reading works, so it's quite normal. It's how I thought before I was introduced to all of this stuff. What is becomes clear you are doing is working from the letters of the alphabet first, when what is really effective is to work from the sounds first. In JP, the snake action is for the sound sssss, not the letter S (ess). It might seem trivial, but actually makes a lot of sense to children taught from that persepctive. So, the snake action and the sound 'ssss' can be heard in the words bus, grass, race, circle, scissors and base - and is of course spelt s, ss, c, sc, -ce and -se. For a child to think that everytime they see the letter 's' it is there for the 'ssss' sound is confusing when they meet the words 'please' 'sheep' for example. So, I never use the phrase 'what does this letter say?' as this indicates the 26 letters have one soudn each, which is far from the truth.

When taught fully, I have only ever found that JP complements anything done in school as it is the one thing that makes all the sense and pulls it all together for children. However, done in bits and inconsistently, I can see it would seem a little weird.

It is clear that your boys are very /good/ visual learners: however, I don't think that means that is their one strength and they can't manage any other way. The thing is, reading is a visual and auditory activity - learning to read can never happen on visual memory alone. It can often begin that way, but the human memory just hasn't the capacity to cope with all the words it will encounter by memory along: there has to be some understanding of the component parts. Plus, as more and words are encountered, so many have similar overall shapes, it can be very confusing. Often, children with good visual memories give the impression of learning to read with great enthusiasm, ability and progress at the start, only to really bomb a few years down the line with little hope of regaining their ability as too many bad habits are too well ingrained and they are almost past the threshold to 'relearn.'

It might be that for your boys, auditory learning is not as easy, but that can still be achieved with practice and reinforcement.

Of course the letters need to be recognised in order to learn to read; the fact that your boys know them so well means that matching them to sounds should be quite quick as they will only have one new thing to remember. I couldn't imagine how it could be a general indicator of potential learning ability as learning to read is dependent on so many other factors.

Quick question - do they know the letters by lower or upper case?

Familiar words like you describe are often picked up quickly by children with good visual memories - but they are recognised more as pictures than words. I have 'tested' children like this before - and often 'Tesco' or 'McDonalds' written in normal handwriting is a complete mystery to them.

I am sorry whole words are being given to them soon - I'm not convinced it will be good for them in teh long term, from what I described above.

I don't think you are being a pushy parents - I think you are concerned that your boys' learning is going to progress as it should and you should be proud of yourself to be a vigilant and caring mum to do so.

Speech development is key to reading - in its comprehension more than articulation. There is no point children learning to read words they have never heard before but I have had a few children with speech impediments read very well - as long as they are left to pronounce the sounds as they are able.

Hope this helps for now - dont' apologise about a long post....!!

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maggiems · 12/10/2005 22:21

Thanks for such a long reply. i dont know how you do it!. i am going to look through your reply again later or tomorrow but re your quick question regarding lower versus upper case, the boys just learned lower case as per letterland. However since they started school both lower and upper case are done at the same time. The only letter they have done to date that has a very different lower and upper case is "B" but even though they had never been familiar with "B" they seem to be able to write and recognise "b" and "B". I thought it best to leave the introduction of the upper cases until the school actually did it rathr than me doing it. However as they are both off this week with chicken pox and are recovering, I have done "H" and "h" , the latter they were familiar with but "H" was new. They can both write "H" and "h" but again the sound thing was the thing they were least interested in. I laughed at your less able child who said that cat started with head. Although reading may not have been his strongest point , at least he had some sort of logical answer. I feel sure I will be askiing for more advice- thanks again maggie

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maggiems · 13/10/2005 13:53

Hi catflap,I have been reading your response this morning on the way to work and its all very interesting.

Yes, I thought you wouldnt like Letterland. The boys are a bit stuck on Annie Apple A etc but they seem to be able to move on to the letter when doing it in school so hopefully it will come.
A letter per week may seem slow but I imagine after Halloween when they extend the number of hours at school from 3.5 to 5 they will increase the numbers of letters they do each week. I cant imagine they will wait 26 eeks before doing all letters and sounds (well 44 for sounds) .
The school advocate the enriched cirriculum where possible although they acknowledge that one to one is not always possible. One of the teaschers who I have spoken to was telling me about her 2 chilren who started school before the EC was introduced. Her son was not ready for reading when he started although he was nearly 5. Her daughter was more than ready. Her son struggled for a number of years and she dearly wishes that he could have availed of the EC system and is quite sure it would not have held her daughter back either.(Now whether JP was in place in the school at the time I dont know). The ethos in the school seems to be,if you are ready to learn then every enouragement will be given to the child through formal learning. If you are not ready to learn then every encouragement will be given to learn through less formal means. My concern had been What if your child is ready but not willing to learn but I am happy enough that the structure within the school is such that it is formal enough for that not to happen. Although a learning through play system is encouraged its light years away from the preschool environment that they were in last year which I believe had about as formal a structure as preschools go. At the end of the day I had to pick a school which had the correct balance for the boys who really should not have been there until next year if they had been born at the right time, ie not a hugely pushy school but pushy enough to get good academic results. TBH the education system is very good in NI and we had a range of really good schools to choose from , ranging from the local " we expect a lot from our children from day 1", 30 in a class type of school to a 3 in a class school which was able to do the enriched cirriculum to a greater extent. Lots of others in between. I'm not from NI so I can brag without boasting. I dont think there is any school in the area which does purely JP, so again I have to live with what I have. Just want to use the method that the most effective for them when I am with them.

Am I right in saying that you should not attach the sound to the letter, ie what does this letter say but rather identify the sound as part of the word like the sss sound in bus etc. Maybe you should not be looking at the letter at all in the early stages but I guess that would be silly as learning to write would be impossible.

yes , I understand anout the recognising of the words like Tesco etc not being recognised in normal handwriting. I have noticed that the boys recognise some words like "Spiderman"and their names in normal handwriting but I know its their visual memory at work rather than true reading. However as reading is a visual memory activity as well I suppose its better that they are able to do this than not being able to.

Regarding the whole words, would it not be the case that some children will be ready for words by then and is it not a good idea to do it as long as you encourage the sounding out of the word as you learn it?
I like the idea of sounding out some wordsaround the house like T-e-d-ee.

Thanks again Maggie

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Catflap · 14/10/2005 13:57

Hi there Maggie - thank you for your messages. I was interesting to hear of the NI schooling.

(I always visit the boards I use once dd is in bed and dinner eaten. OH is doing some online gaming and I don't watch much telly anymore...! And I can type fast. I have to - to keep up with my brain!)

Just to answer your questions and thoughts briefly, as it's actually nap time now, and i won't have long -

Of course sounds need to be attached to letters, but it's from the sound TO the letter, not from the letter to the sound. This might seem like a subtle difference, but it's an important one. Of course many children learn to read whatever you do, but if you want to make really sure your children will learn, this is a proven method with little chance of failure. This means that instead of looking at a letter as making whatever sound, you are identifying a sound as being spelt this way - and its various other ways.

The difference is that with the letters saying a sound, you are indicating that each of the 26 letters has its own sound, which it does not and then when digraphs are encountered e.g. ai, children are more likely to see 2 individual letters and sounds, rather than seeing it as one unit for one sound.

By identifying a sound and matching the spellings to it, children are more aware of the sounds in words and can more easily recognise all the spellings for that sound, rather than seeing 26 letters and 26 sounds all the time.

I found that a bit hard to explain, actually - do I make sense??

There are differing views about phonological awareness development in our out of the sight of print. The Americans believe a lot more out of the sight of print is beneficial but over here, in the sight of print is encouraged from the start. I do, however, work with just sounds for about 3 weeks before introducing letters and this has always worked really well for me and my kids.

The thing is, the sounds of our spoken language came centuries before writing did. SO I think it is important for children to have good understanding of those sounds before working with writing, and often pre-learnt things about letters from home or pre-school can inhibit sounds learning in some occasions.

Yes, reading is a visual activity so it is great that children who have a strength in that area can manage that side of it effortlessly. The danger just can be relying on it too much, as reading is an auditory activity as well and I don't believe that side should be ignored, just because children appear to be managing without it.

Your last point about children being ready for whole words should be encouraged as long as they are sounding out - the phonics teaching process can be done at varying rates for chidlren of differing abilities. I usually have one child in each class entering school reading very well independently. This is usually because they are very able and have picked up whole words and worked out the phonics (so some level) by themselves. This just requires rapid sound/letter teaching to fill in all the gaps and lots of reaidng focussing on sounding out with unfamiliar words. Often really capable readers will misread unfamiliar words because they look at the whole and find it 'looks' like something else so they just make a quick judgement and move on. I like to ensure children are really looking carefully at the whole sequence of sounds and letters.

HTH

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maggiems · 14/10/2005 19:22

Hi catflap, thanks yet again for your words of wisdom. I really regret not teaching the boys to sound out the letters first. A friend recommended that I contact my chosen school to see what method they used, but of course I ploughed on ahead regardless , determined as I was to get them to recognise the alphabet through the means that I knew they would find easiest. Ah well hindsight is a great thing.

I usually check in to the boards early evening when DH is bathing boys and again when they are asleep, hopefully tonight after some wine as its Friday. Its hard to keep away especially when nothing but housework beckons. maggie

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Catflap · 14/10/2005 19:53

ha ha - I know what you mean!

Please don't regret anything - it's pointless, if you made all the decisions as best as you could at the time. Remember, I'm not saying you will have done them any permanent damage by any stretch of the imagination - I'm sure you haven't at all. What you have done will have helped them and they have obviously enjoyed it. You are aware of the bigger picture now, so it can only get better and better.

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maggiems · 14/10/2005 20:08

Catflap have a nice weekend - Maggie

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maggiems · 15/10/2005 11:58

Well after not asking for the letterland video for about 2 months , Ds1 insisted on it this morning. Could he be diverted to the JP one, no chance,sods law.
I have been doing the sounds this morning and have had a good bit more success when I make the sound and ask what letter makes that sound. Not sure if this is the way to go but it seems to be easier for them than "What sound does that letter make".Only did it briefly with the ones that they done in school but happy to make any progress

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