Why would you watch porn?

(194 Posts)
AmIHumanYet Sun 02-Feb-14 00:00:54

How can anybody ENJOY seeing a woman being treated as a sex object? I watched some as research (seriously!) a few months ago, the general themes were men disrespecting women. it was focused on the mans pleasure and orgasm, why do some of you think that that's okay? There's NOTHING equal about this industry

Young men are getting weird and wrong ideas about women and how they should be treated from watching porn. Women are shown as sex OBJECTS, not human beings, they're shown as always being up for it, that basically using her as a wank-tool is enough to make her orgasm, that being selfish and focused on your own pleasure and orgasm is acceptable

I really want to hear some male opinions on this, it has been really upsetting me for a long time now and I feel powerless.

AmIHumanYet Sun 02-Feb-14 00:12:39

The women in porn are very often coerced into acts that physically hurt them, like anal sex and performing oral sex on a man where he pushes her head, the women usually pretend to have an orgasm from these things. Porn is so readily available and influences the way men and boys view women and girls and what they expect of them during sex.

The women in the porn videos are literally being destroyed both mentally and physically. When you watch these videos, you are seeing real life human women being hurt and abused, how could anybody justify this?

AmIHumanYet Sun 02-Feb-14 00:15:01

PLEASE READ THIS.... PLEASE!!!
http://www.covenanteyes.com/2008/10/29/ex-porn-star-tells-the-truth-part-2/

BOFtastic Sun 02-Feb-14 00:24:57

The link doesn't work for me, sorry.

I'd guess that the reason is that it's a shortcut to what we (metaphorically) used to use, ie our imagination. Much like many people ignore kids stitching footballs and cheap clothes, people prefer not to think about the conditions of the people producing the stuff.

The part that worries me (apart from the obvious) is that as well as exploiting actors, porn actually limits the imagination, and warps it in ways which are particularly damaging to women. It conditions men into fantasising about abuse.

Nobody wants to go back to covering piano legs, but there has got to be a space for the erotic imagination outside the fast-buck capitalist misogynistic shite which is ubiquitous now, surely?

Sadly the prevalence of such porn in the modern age will have a lot to answer for in future generations IMO.

I agree with the pp who analogised the porn industry with child labour. Its very easy yo turn a blind eye, because its the internet/so geographically distant Unfortunately with porn, there is no 'free range' alternative.

I think people will always search out ways of exploring erotic fantasy via self pleasure, whether it be the top shelf magazines or youporn. The ideal would be to find a way of producing 'fairtrade' porn, where the actors rights and content can be assured

rpitchfo Mon 03-Feb-14 12:43:10

Some of this maybe wrong but just writing down my initial (male) thoughts.

I think the short answer is that a lot of men just don't think about the arguments your raise. It's not even a conscious decision to ignore the issue but complete, blissful ignorance. Masturbation is the ultimate self-gratification, the less thought that goes into the act the better.

I maybe doing men a disservice here but I've never had a debate about the rights/ and wrongs of the porn industry with friends - but i have had plenty of conversations about porn in general.

Secondly this is a humanist topic but an issue feminists are arguing. An argument the feminists are losing badly. The porn industry and the pro-porn lobby seem to base their arguments around "empowerment" of women; but for the vast, vast majority of porn "actors" this couldn't be further from the truth. This probably isn't going to go down well but feminists need to find a way to engage in this debate sensitively. Men have become normalised to all sorts of porn - it's not going to be an easy education to persuade us that its morally and fundamentally wrong. Antagonistic arguments demonizing the male users aren't going to win people over especially when the alternative argument does appear on the surface to be "pro-women".

Personally, i've stopped watching porn, but only because i stumbled across the feminist section of mumsnet.

For me men need to start having the conversation with each other about what they feel is acceptable.

MsAnatomist Tue 04-Feb-14 23:13:35

I'm a woman and I watch porn - I watch it because it turns me on, that's the simple reason.

Do I watch any old thing online? Absolutely not, lord knows what the production was like for that. Coercion, exploitation, unsafe sex, low pay etc etc.

I order my porn in DVD format from the web, that is created by reputable directors and production companies, with a clear ethos about upholding ethical standards in the sex and adult entertainment industry. Much the same as buying meat products with the little red tractor logo on it or the way I buy soap without palm oil used in it.

I'm all for watching consensual, adult sex. I'm also all for people having an honest talk about such things with their teenagers so they have sensible ideas about pornography coming into adulthood.

If someone wants to watch porn where the script is a woman being used for a man's pleasure, what is wrong with that? As long as the actress wasn't ACTUALLY being used for a man's pleasure, it was all safe, consensual, well-paid, non-coerced acting, and there is an expectation that the viewer (male or female) has been properly educated about the difference between fantasy, expectation, and reality from an appropriate age, along with other relevant issues around sex such as consent, there is nothing to despair about.

I don't think a man that can say "Hey dear, after we put the kids to bed and eat that new tub of ice cream, let's get it on. Can I roleplay demeaning you, since you like being demeaned in a roleplay? Yes? Great. By the way, are we painting the kitchen tomorrow? Love you too" is a bad person.

MannishBoy Wed 05-Feb-14 14:23:36

I often find myself conflicted over porn. Logically I feel it is wrong, generally exploitative and, with an almost 18 year old daughter, some of it an be slightly disturbing. When I'm horny, however, my logical mind goes for a walk while the other head takes over. I tend to look at stuff from my own age group, so none of the teen stuff. But in the moments I'm watching it, I'm not thinking about it in a subjective way, just as a means to get me off when I'm home alone and horny.

Not the proudest admission in the world, but there you are.

Honeysweet Wed 05-Feb-14 14:27:03

Perhaps it needs to be talked about more, to help enable it to stop happening as much?

AmIHumanYet Wed 05-Feb-14 16:56:43

Are you doing anything to try and stop supporting it MannishBoy or simply accepting that it's wrong and carrying on?

NeoFaust Wed 05-Feb-14 17:08:33

Pro-porn here.

Of course it's good wank-material, but honestly I regard it as an artform with a multitude of sub-genres that I enjoy as entertainment as much as titillation.

I try to make sure it's from ethical, legally scrutinised sources. I feel no need to apologise for it - if the women are free participants and agreed in advance to every element of the performance, then really - what's the harm?

Homemade sex videos are the BEST. Commercial stuff fills a gap, but I hope one day everything will be homemade amateur porn. Real women and real men having really wild sex in a real relationship. Nothing hotter.

Frankly it seems that feminism just carried on the Edwardian narrative of male sex = brutish, animal, violent and female sex = pure, emotional, civilised. Trying to demonise porn is just one element of this attack and, to be honest, makes me enjoy it even more. My ultimate kink is that thought that the sex I'm having makes some prudish harpy grind her teeth (no kidding).

TunipTheUnconquerable Wed 05-Feb-14 17:17:50

I think people who make out they're all worldly-wise and 'oh sure, I use porn because it's fun but only the ethical sort' are often sadly naive about what happens behind the scenes.

Eg the idea that homemade porn is fine - but there have been an increasing number of cases where women have been forced to make amateur porn as part of an abusive relationship (or, as happened to a MNer a few months ago, photos or film her dp took of her was put online without her consent).

If you worked in the porn industry and know the actors and really know what's the background is like, fine, but most people who insist that they don't use anything exploitative don't actually have much information to base it on.

curlew Wed 05-Feb-14 17:19:36

The answer to the OP's question, either because you are a misogynist arse or you are stupid with no idea how the world works. Hope this helps.

curlew Wed 05-Feb-14 17:20:57

I've now read the thread.

I endorse my previous post. Examples of both aplenty.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Feb-14 17:42:46

Neo, did you realise your post makes you sound like you really hate women ?

TunipTheUnconquerable Wed 05-Feb-14 17:43:40

Indeed Curlew, and sometimes both.

MsAnatomist Wed 05-Feb-14 17:54:17

Tuniptheunconquerable, it's really not that complex or hard to know for sure. I will probably have to change my forum name after this but I have worked in the sex industry truly happily (no boss, self employed, good hours, good money, nice people, my own safety measures), and in that time met people working in sectors different to mine, like in pornography. I think that's when I really started to care about it, and didn't believe the half of the pro porn lot on "Oh it's really all great for the girls." There's this awful seedy side to pornography, much like sweatshop-type manufacturing, field working for little pay etc etc - downright disgusting. (That doesn't mean we say "Oh you can't buy fruit, it could be from a slave farm - you do your homework and know what's what). But like with these other industries, it is extremely easy to find out the work conditions of pornography, if you give enough of a damn to do it. The best thing is to start with the actors and actresses, particularly the ones which own their own production companies, and read things like the charters they've signed up to, ask queries about independent inspections and certificates, and most importantly make use of previous groups freedom of information requests. Porn made in the UK is definitely on the whole more worrying that it's US counterparts, the industry in the USA still has massive black spots obviously, but there are very promising ex-actress/still-actress-lead producers running their own studios. Obviously it means that you are not able to get new material on demand, but like any sort of film, quality and assurance speaks for itself.

To me the bottom line will always be education - of teenagers and even people my own age. I am very glad I found out responsibility on my own because I surely could have ended up one of these poor lads in their early twenties that have an awful misconception of women/men and can only get off from tabboo odd things they see in porn.

If people were to actually take the steps I mentioned about finding porn to be proud of watching, even just for research purposes so they know that it really does exist, and then told all their friends about it, debates like this wouldn't be going on. That also goes for talking to teenagers about it honestly, and in a non-judgmental way. We'd eventually destroy the demand chain for disreputable pornography.

MsAnatomist Wed 05-Feb-14 17:57:33

And Tunip, I totally agree with you on homemade porn - awful awful idea to endorse such a thing.

Neofaust, I do think you're missing the point of what other people have been trying to say. They are genuinely concerned about working conditions, impact on the ability to imagine on your own etc. It's not just about what you find hot - it's also about a moral obligation.

TunipTheUnconquerable Wed 05-Feb-14 17:57:59

'Porn made in the UK is definitely on the whole more worrying that it's US counterparts'

That's very interesting, can you elaborate?
What is it in particular about the UK industry that makes it dodgy?

AnyFucker Wed 05-Feb-14 18:00:13

MsA, how would you reliably check the credentials of home made porn as so enthusiastically endorsed by our very misogynist wanker here ?

Give 'em a call on the blower ?

MsAnatomist Wed 05-Feb-14 18:00:30

*could have ended up like

AnyFucker Wed 05-Feb-14 18:01:08

Ah, cross posted. I see we are on the same page with misogynist Wankery at least.

MsAnatomist Wed 05-Feb-14 18:03:12

I wouldn't! How on earth can you check that??

Well the main thing with the UK is the attitude to safe sex. It is abolsutely appalling. They do the whole "Get tested, show us your certificate, you'll only have sex with someone that's been tested recently, UNPROTECTED." It is madness, you can get tested, go out and pick up an STD, two weeks later get the call from the clinic saying your last tests were negative, and then get your certificate and are allowed to work.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Feb-14 18:06:39

Yep

BOFtastic Wed 05-Feb-14 18:19:53

From what I've read, the same applies to Hollywood porn. There have been outbreaks of HIV among the actors; I think Louis Theroux featured a rather sad young man that this happened to for one of his documentaries.

MsAnatomist Wed 05-Feb-14 18:26:44

I agree with that, there was that massive syphillis (Pretty sure it was that) outbreak, it shut down the LA scene for ages. The thing is that america is so big it is like comparing say, the whole of europe with the UK. There's these bubbles of good repute that are larger than what's positive with the UK. Although from the ladies and gents I spoke to who worked in the UK, the pay seemed to be on the whole better here? Although how you can put a price on your health/safety is obviously a question no one likes to think of at all.

KlausDupont Sat 08-Feb-14 20:44:57

My wife doesn't have sex with me so I watch porn.

If she did I would never consume porn - it's unerotic and crass but adds a little piquancy to the five knuckle shuffle so there you go.

divisionbyzero Wed 19-Feb-14 16:29:28

Not a fan really, and just to be clear I wouldn't be ashamed of it if I was. I think that for men who are out of the "awkward phase", it is used as an attempt to quell the sexual part of the sexual, financial, social, intellectual, conversational and emotional void man endures in settling for one woman once she has been with him for thirty seconds, the act is dropped and a lifetime of sad indentured servitude is truly embarked upon. smile

normalishdude Thu 20-Feb-14 08:59:58

sexual, financial, social, intellectual, conversational, emotional voids. OK, porn= sexual side. What do they do about all the other factors?:0)

Yawn, another porn thread. Why has this been posted on Dadsnet?

TiggyCBE Mon 24-Feb-14 11:09:25

They have women in porn now?

AmIHumanYet Sat 01-Mar-14 14:40:07

Toadinthehole, I hardly think 'yawn' is an appropriate reaction to the abuse of women or to the extremely damaging effects this is having on children and adults.

LouiseSmith Sat 01-Mar-14 17:42:19

I watch porn, I'm a woman. I've watch it with and without my partner. Why? Why not.

First time I found porn I was 15, did it colour my view of how I should be abused by men in bed. No! I enjoy a little slap and tickle who doesn't now and again

TiggyCBE Sun 02-Mar-14 09:50:49

I really want to hear some male opinions on this

No you don't.

Your OP went like this:
'Porn is wrong and horrible in every way and everyone who uses it is pure evil scum because it's wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG!'

That kind of approach is never going to provoke a discussion. Anybody reading that would probably have worked out that any opinion that differed from yours in any way would be quite aggressively attacked. And generally, porn discussions never go well on here

AmIHumanYet Sun 02-Mar-14 20:44:30

Yes I do, Tiggy. I wanted to hear how it can be justified, I wanted to know if the viewers actually give a shit or realise how damaging it is/can be.
Have you actually watched any of the mainstream stuff? It is obviously sending a very negative message to the viewers about women and sex.

Technotropic Mon 03-Mar-14 00:14:24

I would say its wrong to think porn changes the expectation of men. I think most men are fully capable of understanding that porn is fantasy so is a little insulting to think men want to make their wives gag on their cocks, or that they should be 'up for it' 24/7.

Porn has probably changed as many men as 50 Shades has changed women.

OP, you sound as if you're spoiling for a fight.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 10:57:27

Toadinthehole, is it so hard to understand why someone would be upset/worried about this issue?

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 11:13:20

LouiseSmith, that's nice... do you honestly believe that the media doesn't affect the way people think?

If we are using our personal experiences to prove out point then- I'm a 21 year old woman who has had lots of sexual partners, I KNOW that young people are being heavily influenced by porn! Young women/girls ARE expected to perform sex acts like 'deep throat', anal sex etc.

I don't think you realise what is going on in schools, statistics say that 50% of 11-14 year olds have viewed porn. Things have only got worse since I was in school, I volunteer with young people (mostly girls) and the issues we talk about most are things like young girls being pressured to send naked photos, those photos then being sent around the school, girls being filmed on mobile phones performing sex acts, the pressure to look a certain way ('if you have pubic hair, you're gross') etc.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 11:19:20

I would definitely say that the majority of young boys 'sex education' is coming from porn these days. Where are they learning to respect women and not see them as sex objects? The media DOES heavily influence people! I am certain that most parents don't teach their children about these things and from my experience and what I have been told, schools aren't teaching it. Where does a girl learn that sex should be respectful and equal? Where does a boy learn that women should be treated respectfully and equally during sex?

NeoFaust Mon 03-Mar-14 11:30:31

I think the media, including porn, is affected by the way think, then sells our own fantasies back to us. Porn is just a reflection of trends in our society. Back in the 90s/early 00s it was all busty shaved blondes with the rare brunette. Since then the variety had really taken off - women of all body shapes becoming stars in their particular niches. I think porn as an art form is developing its own maturity as societies sexual ethics move away from Edwardian prudent and its feminist off shoot.

As women throw off the patriarchal attitudes to sex, they are increasingly consuming, and more importantly influencing, the evolution of more inclusive porn. Perhaps the OP should examine whether their attitude comes from their own opinion or is a remnant of patriarchal slut shaming.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 11:39:17

NeoFaust, I think you've completely missed my point.
None of that changes the fact that women are being used as and seen as sex objects, none of that changes the fact that women are being abused in the porn industry

NeoFaust Mon 03-Mar-14 12:00:19

Noone is disputing that there is abuse in the industry and noone disputes that abuse in a sex industry is off greater concern than, say, the abuse of women workers in a mobile phone factory.

What is in dispute is :

A: that the majority of women in porn are being abused.

B: that porn represents abuse in itself.

C: That people should not be permitted to present themselves as sexual performers ("objects" in your parlance) in a limited context for money or their own amusement.

TiggyCBE Mon 03-Mar-14 13:58:16

I wanted to hear how it can be justified, I wanted to know if the viewers actually give a shit or realise how damaging it is/can be.

If you want to hear how it can be justified in some people's eyes you'll need to approach it in a more neutral way.

At the moment you're approaching it in kind of the same way as a toddler approaches bird watching. By screaming and running at the birds, scaring them away.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 18:52:01

Thanks for your contribution, TiggyCBE. I am perfectly entitled to voice my opinions about something, of course I am going to speak negatively about something I view as damaging and usually misogynistic

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 18:54:51

NeoFaust, I do suspect that you're missing my points deliberately...

TiggyCBE Mon 03-Mar-14 20:07:01

You are entitled to voice your opinions. But if you do that you'll find that nobody will want to answer your question.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 20:11:27

People already have answered
Of course I wanted to try and draw peoples attention to this issue, Tiggy. Thanks for the input...

RiverMan Mon 03-Mar-14 20:12:53

OP Tiggy is right. You don't really want a debate, or to understand a different view, you just want to rant about your perception of porn and brow beat anyone with a different view.

I suggest you repost in FWR section, you'll get a lot of reinforcement of your perspective there.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 20:22:17

RiverMan
As I said in the OP, the issue 'has been upsetting me for a very long time and I feel powerless' which surely explains why I tried to voice my concerns..?
I feel honoured to be on the same thread as a mind-reader though!
I posted here for the reason I stated in the OP, my opinions, experiences and facts are not a 'rant', RiverMan hmm
If you believe it would be better suited to the FWR section then does that mean that you think the Dadsnet section isn't feminist or pro-womens rights? I thought it was relevant to this section because I did want to read mens answers to the question (despite being told that I don't want to confused )

RiverMan Mon 03-Mar-14 21:38:42

amI

Well, your OP relies on the premiss that all porn is abusive. This is not a universally held view. It is not a fact.

As such your upset that anyone using porn is masterbating to abuse relies on subjective opinion, not fact.

If you want to deny the existence of porn that involves consenting humans, free from weird or violent sex acts, it's your shout. But it seems to be upsetting you.

And if there is a ( undeniable ) problem with young men watching abusive porn ( which is a fact ) then to deny there is porn that just shows people having 'normal' sex pushes it further into the margin.

There's been a lot of press about the crap sex education children get recently. And as I'm sure you know, a problem is that that young men aren't being shown what ''normal' sex looks like because they're only watching weird stuff with women gagging or whatever.

The other problem ( in the context of young adults ) is that we have the internet. When I was a boy we had 3 TV channels, and they all went off air in the day time. I reminder when the internet turned up at a whopping 28k per sec. I have 60mb a sWell, your OP relies on the premiss that all porn is abusive. This is not a universally held view. It is not a fact.

As such your upset that anyone using porn is masterbating to abuse relies on subjective opinion, not fact.

If you want to deny the existence of porn that involves consenting humans, free from weird or violent sex acts, it's your shout. But it seems to be upsetting you.

And if there is a ( undeniable ) problem with young men watching abusive porn ( which is a fact ) then to deny there is porn that just shows people having 'normal' sex pushes it further into the margin.

There's been a lot of press about the crap sex education children get recently. And as I'm sure you know, a problem is that that young men aren't being shown what ''normal' sex looks like because they're only watching weird stuff with women gagging or whatever.

The other problem ( in the context of young adults ) is that we have the internet. When I was a boy we had 3 TV channels, and they all went off air in the day time. I remember when the internet turned up at a whopping 28k per sec. I have 60mb a second today.

And as for objectification. Why are you surprised this is a turn on ? I've plenty of happy memories of partners putting themselves, willingly, in a position where they very much wanted to be an object of sexual desire.

I don't think they wanted me to discuss Proust.

And as for women's rights and Dadsnet. Well, not agreeing with you doesn't negate any pro equality views or actions I might adhere to. But if you're upset about these issues, you're much more likely to get support and agreement over there < waves arm in direction of FWR >

RiverMan Mon 03-Mar-14 21:43:45

Balls, clearly a copy and paste garbled that reply.

RiverMan Mon 03-Mar-14 21:44:51

heres the same without the screw up

Well, your OP relies on the premiss that all porn is abusive. This is not a universally held view. It is not a fact.

As such your upset that anyone using porn is masterbating to abuse relies on subjective opinion, not fact.

If you want to deny the existence of porn that involves consenting humans, free from weird or violent sex acts, it's your shout. But it seems to be upsetting you.

And if there is a ( undeniable ) problem with young men watching abusive porn ( which is a fact ) then to deny there is porn that just shows people having 'normal' sex pushes it further into the margin.

There's been a lot of press about the crap sex education children get recently. And as I'm sure you know, a problem is that that young men aren't being shown what ''normal' sex looks like because they're only watching weird stuff with women gagging or whatever.

The other problem ( in the context of young adults ) is that we have the internet. When I was a boy we had 3 TV channels, and they all went off air in the day time. I reminder when the internet turned up at a whopping 28k per sec. I have 60mb a second today.

And as for objectification. Why are you surprised this is a turn on ? I've plenty of happy memories of partners putting themselves, willingly, in a position where they very much wanted to be an object of sexual desire.

I don't think they wanted me to discuss Proust.

And as for women's rights and Dadsnet. Well, not agreeing with you doesn't negate any pro equality views or actions I might adhere to. But if you're upset about these issues, you're much more likely to get support and agreement over there < waves arm >.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 21:53:13

RiverMan, you can talk about the exceptions all day but that doesn't change the fact that the MAJORITY of porn is misogynistic, that mainstream porn sends the wrong message to the viewer, that is it hurting people etc.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 21:58:39

While being treated as an object may be a turn on for some women, surely you agree that sex shouldn't just be centred on the mans pleasure and orgasm. I am talking about the MAINSTREAM porn, RiverMan and the general themes are that using a woman as a 'wank tool' is enough to make her scream in pleasure, that sex is for the mans enjoyment, that women are objects to be used for sex

Backonthefence Mon 03-Mar-14 22:01:41

If you really want a males opinion on this you would be on a more male dominated website not mumsnet.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 22:03:43

Wait... 'If you want to deny the existence of porn that involves consenting humans, free from weird or violent sex acts, it's your shout. But it seems to be upsetting you.'
It's as if you haven't bothered to read my posts at all hmm

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 22:06:21

Yet another mind reader... I would appreciate not being told what my own intentions are. This is the Dadsnet section, Backonthefence, the name would suggest that it is male dominated.

Backonthefence Mon 03-Mar-14 22:20:36

You might not have noticed but this place is pretty dead, there are threads from 2012 still on the first page, you would be lucky to see a post a week. There are very few men on this site and fewer that post with any regularity.

Any thread here which does receive a lot of attention is normally female dominated.

Anyway I wish you luck.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 22:22:48

Backonthefence, I fail to see how that means I don't want male opinions..?
Any suggestions then?
Every male dominated forum I have been on has been full of misogynists and trolls (just my personal experience)

Backonthefence Mon 03-Mar-14 22:38:01

Well it's probably best I don't inflict those probable misogynists on you, or you on them. I have just read the thread and well I'm not sure you actually want opinions.

Sorry my mistake as you were.

AmIHumanYet Mon 03-Mar-14 22:53:46

All I have posted are my opinions, experiences and a few statistics. I do want to hear opinions but that doesn't mean I shouldn't express mine! If you have read the thread then you would have read the post where I describe my experience with the young victims of this culture, quite frankly I am surprised at your apathetic, irrelevant and petty response

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 07:27:06

amI

It's pretty clear that you just want affirmation of your own views. You're being rude and dismissive of anyone who offers an alternate view.

You don't want to hear opinions... You want to hear your opinion.

Keepithidden Tue 04-Mar-14 09:06:53

If you have read the thread then you would have read the post where I describe my experience with the young victims of this culture, quite frankly I am surprised at your apathetic, irrelevant and petty response

If you're basing your opinions on your experience with the young victims of this culture then it isn't surprising you rail against it so much. Maybe there are significant numbers of porn consumers who aren't victims? Or at least not to the same scale (I think the performers is a different issue).

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I have come accross a similar attitude before. I used to work in a GP surgery in a deprived estate in an urban area. The drug users (herione, crack) who visited were definitely victims of that culture, unfortunately the Doctors who ran it only saw that side of drug culture. They preached complete abstinence without recoginsing the more prevalent drug culture in existence elsewhere e.g. the students getting pilled up for a club night, the professionals relaxing after a day at work with a smoke, the local hacks snorting lines while writing up their latest reporting. None of these impacted on the culture the Doctors and I saw at the surgery.

I just wonder whether you experience is limited to the really nasty results of the industry/consumer?

Roussette Tue 04-Mar-14 09:28:19

AmI you are never going to get a big response from men if your mind is made up and you won't listen to anything that anyone else says.

FWIW I agree with some of what you say but do watch some carefully chosen porn myself.

Not all porn is like you say although I agree that mainstream porn is produced by men for men and I am in agreement that it objectifies women far too much. However, I'm a woman and I watch porn from time to time so where does that leave me?

I get where you're coming from but you are a tad aggressive in responding to those that have posted.

BTW good post Riverman, I agree that not all porn is bad and in general I prefer erotic literature than mainstream porn. I think we should face up tot he fact that some porn can be a form of self expression and joy for some people if it's done right and we should support good porn producers rather than write off the entire gengre as you are doing AmI

Roussette Tue 04-Mar-14 09:31:25

*genre

Can't type

JustForThisThreadNotATrollHonest Tue 04-Mar-14 09:43:25

I just wanted to add to the debate, I am a woman who does enjoy gagging on my DP's cock - it makes me orgasm. I also enjoy having him spunk all over my face.

I have never watched porn.

These are just things I like, it's not weird.

I don't want to watch anyone being abused, but don't assume that because it's not something you enjoy that nobody else could possibly enjoy it either.

NeoFaust Tue 04-Mar-14 09:51:33

I'm not ignoring your points, I'm refuting your 'facts'. Different thing.

neiljames77 Tue 04-Mar-14 10:12:00

Porn doesn't dress itself up to be anything other than what it is. It's porn. The biggest danger to attitudes being shaped is Rap "artists" objectifying women in the guise of music and culture. Referring to them as bitches and ho's, treating them as trinkets to go along with the fast cars and big houses.

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 10:29:09

No, NeoFaust, you're making this up as you go along
for example- "C: That people should not be permitted to present themselves as sexual performers ("objects" in your parlance) in a limited context for money or their own amusement." hmm

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 10:33:04

JustForThis
Fine, YOU enjoy it! That doesn't mean that women and GIRLS should be expected to or believe that they should! That doesn't mean that men and boys should expect women to.

Neiljames, I am going to have to disagree that that's the biggest danger
Firstly, not all young men and boys listen to that music or watch the videos, whereas men and boys with different tastes in those types of things view porn.
I agree that those messages in the music and videos are extremely damaging

NeoFaust Tue 04-Mar-14 10:34:47

Personally I think porn is less damaging than music videos. Yes, a some porn involves word-less humping, but that low-grade eastern european porn is only a part, not dominant. In quite a lot of porn, the women present a persona - artificial and very male-fantasy orientated, but an element that is as important as their body. Hardly simply an object.

Take Belladonna or Sasha Grey - neither fits into the old fashioned busty-blonde stereotype, but both are among the best known performers for the attitude they bring to the role. Artificial personalities most likely, but far from an empty headed victim.

Music videos just use women for window dressing, gyrating body parts to detract from the appalling lack of quality in the music. I think this is more demeaning.

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 10:35:39

But wait, JustForThis, do you have a clitoris in your throat?
Porn shows women screaming in pleasure and pretending to orgasm from things like which gives the viewer the idea that a mans pleasure is enough to make the woman orgasm which relates to my previous comment about mainstream porn being all about the male orgasm, using the woman as a tool for his enjoyment

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 10:40:21

NeoFaust, I think you're doing this on purpose, I'm going to choose not to engage with you in this thread because you ARE missing the points whether you think you are or not.
Yes, a woman can have an 'attitude' but still be objectified and still be a part of something that affects the viewer and the viewers sexual partners in a negative way.

neiljames77 Tue 04-Mar-14 10:42:55

The point I'm making is that the rappers are hero worshipped whereas the pornstars aren't. They are held up and portrayed as something young men and boys should aspire to be. They are shallow, materialistic and offensive yet they and their offerings are displayed on mainstream tv and they get richly rewarded for their efforts.

God, I'm sounding like a real old fart, aren't I? smile

NeoFaust Tue 04-Mar-14 10:56:22

Actually AmI my last comment was a rumination inspired by neiljames77. (Incidentally neil I'm under 30 and still appalled by the materialistic misogynistic drek in rap, so I guess I'm an old fart too).

I'm interested in what points you feel I am missing. Please elucidate them so that I can address them systematically. This is a subject I feel strongly about, so I welcome the opportunity for discussion.

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 11:02:02

< runs Turing test on *amIhuman >

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 11:05:36

I know, NeoFaust, but the fact that you just don't get it means I'm wasting my time and the fact that you choose to concentrate on things like the hair colour and personality of porn actresses, your 'not all porn is like that!' remarks when actually what I have described are the running themes in mainstream porn and the conclusions you jump to from my posts even though I think I have put across plenty of straight-forward messages meaning there shouldn't be any need for comments like this- "C: That people should not be permitted to present themselves as sexual performers ("objects" in your parlance) in a limited context for money or their own amusement."
Just... what?!

neiljames77 Tue 04-Mar-14 11:06:17

<runs off to google what rumination means>

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 11:06:35

Very helpful, RiverMan hmm

neiljames77 Tue 04-Mar-14 11:18:28

I think with porn, it's just a case of "know your audience". The vast majority of porn is, I suspect, viewed by men. It's a masturbation aid, by and large. The women moaning with pleasure at the very sight of a cock is what the customer wants. Most right minded people recognise it as fake and nothing in relation to real life. Real life sex on dvd wouldn't really sell too many copies. Who wants to see a bloke fumbling around on top of his wife, half pissed, her losing patience at his clumsiness until she eventually says, "oh for fucks sake, give it here", then him propping himself up on his elbows and handing out half a dozen vinegar strokes, rolling over and farting?

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 12:16:29

Good article from the guardian here

Porn's influence is real. Sex education is the answer

HelpfulChap Tue 04-Mar-14 12:24:35

I dont.

Never felt the need.

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 12:27:31

I'm not sure, even if the sex education given to young people was fantastic, they could still view porn every day and learn from that instead, just like people do now. The real answer would be for the patriarchal society that we live in to change, along with the misogynistic media so that the public would stop being brainwashed

neiljames77 Tue 04-Mar-14 12:36:45

Unless somebody 'cool' or somebody who they respect is trying to get the message across, they won't be the slightest bit interested. It's not just men that are to blame though. Lots of girls are influenced by the likes of Katie Price and those plastic dummies from the only way is Essex.

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 12:55:01
TonytheTiiger Tue 04-Mar-14 13:13:05

Blimey OP, you still here? Even the MN Royalty who popped in on their "Perv Patrol" got bored & stopped posting their letterbox views after the second page.

Either you like the sound of your own voice or you get paid every
time you type "Patriarchal" or "Misogynistic"....

I like sex, wanking and porn, I don't have sex with my wife as frequently as I would like and respect her right to say "no".

I don't read "erotic literature" or use my imagination because I don't live in the 1800's and I happen to appreciate the offerings that are a mouseclick away.

A large part of that is seeing people engage in (normal) sex - which involves both parties being treated as sex objects - male orgasms tend to be visible which is why the camera treats that as a climax.

Porn and the ramifications for society as a whole don't bother me in the slightest - it's a mean to an end for me & that's it. I don't buy porn and have ad-block software running so am not financing it by that means - a fully clear conscience here....

Anyway - hope that helps. Please don't bother trying to convert me as you'll be doing nothing more than wasting your time!

NeoFaust Tue 04-Mar-14 13:33:34

I think that if the message of consent is hammered home hard enough by sex education lessons much of the harm of porn (which I dispute, but is a premise I'll accept for the purpose of discussion) could be mitigated. If people accept that their partner has every right to refuse, why not use porn to garner ideas for mutually satisfactory experimentation. It's one of the things I've used it for; My girlfriend doesn't enjoy porn (too crude, not enough context) but has embraced the opportunities if offers to explore potential sexual activities. That's one of the main reasons I watch porn - to explore possibilities to share with my partners.

neiljames77 Tue 04-Mar-14 13:38:22

Going back to the opening post, in a monetary sense there isn't any equality. I was offered the opportunity to do porn over 20 years ago. The pay was £300-£400 a day for 5-6 days work. The women were paid £2000 a day.

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 14:31:27

TonyTheTiger, you sound absolutely great 'Porn and the ramifications for society as a whole don't bother me in the slightest'

AmIHumanYet Tue 04-Mar-14 14:34:34

Apparently, some of you watch/think you watch respectful porn which shows the woman and the man as equal. If that is even true then it still doesn't change the fact that mainstream porn is neither respectful nor equal

Keepithidden Tue 04-Mar-14 14:42:07

If that is even true then it still doesn't change the fact that mainstream porn is neither respectful nor equal

You can say the same about anything in society though: Hollywood films, magazines, newspapers, employment opportunities, division of labour, pay etc. all rife with male priviledge, i.e. disrespectful and not equal.

I suppose if you wanted things to change you should target your ire at the disrespectful stuff and leave those who enjoy the 'safe' stuff to enjoy it. Tarring everyone with the same brush tends get peoples backs up.

brighteyedbusytailed Tue 04-Mar-14 14:48:34

I think the biggest issue in porn is how violent it is/has become...

if it was just people being filmed having different kinds of sex I don't think it would have the same damaging , desensitising effects it has on men,
also its sad/worrying how many habitual porn users become very sexually incompetent, there was that program 'date my porn star' where a lad who was very promiscuous was also unable to finish ..26 years old FFS sad
Is this what is in store for future women?
hoardes of mentally warped young men who can't ejaculate without inserting a 10 inch dildo in someones arse whilst suspending them from the air grin ...
One way to control the population!!!

horsetowater Tue 04-Mar-14 15:04:19

A lot of young people have seen porn from about the ages of 9 or 10 when their parents back off the internet controls. Many have probably seen it younger and it probably depends on each individual how it affects them. I think many young people are walking around in a constant state of mild trauma as sex is something that repulses most children so to see it so openly is probably quite disturbing. It's not just when they are in front of the screen, the trauma will be giving them flashbacks. Some will be afraid to look again, others won't.

I think as they get older, teenagers self-regulate and peers regulate each other. They work out what is acceptable from each other and learn to understand what is right and what's wrong.

The crazy thing about it is that they do this on their own. They have no adult leading them through it and those adults that do think they talk them through it or have an honest and open relationship with them are kidding themselves if they think that their children tell them what they have seen or what they might be looking at.

I think any children growing up to adulthood not believing that prostitution, pornography and the objectification of women are not perfectly acceptable, will be in the distinct minority. It is very very sad that we have almost got to the point of reaching gender equality and our own children will be growing up believing women are just toys for men's entertainment simply because we have been too scared and embarrassed to face it and address it.

I think we have to be prepared for our children to want to be porn stars when they grow up. As a society we have been completely negligent in tackling this.

brighteyedbusytailed Tue 04-Mar-14 15:06:34

although horse, I think parents of this generation will be much more tech savvy than certainly my parents/friends parents were so there is still hope.

i have 2 boys I dread when this happens.

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 15:21:04

A lot of young people have seen porn from about the ages of 9 or 10 when their parents back off the internet controls. Many have probably seen it younger

The issue there though isn't porn, it's children having unrestricted access to the internet.

horsetowater Tue 04-Mar-14 15:22:16

Yes you are probably right. Now our politicians offspring are reaching the age of internet access things will change. Sadly they are still torn and tied by libertarian issues such as privacy laws. These hold back the prosecutors and anyone else trying to maintain any level of control over the internet.

It is marginally better than it was about 5 years ago in terms of pop-ups and search security, but there are other dangers hidden within the realms of online games which appear safe but aren't - like chat etc. Online forums are also dangerous as the traffic is too heavy to moderate effectively.

RCheshire Tue 04-Mar-14 15:29:25

The children are always more tech-savvy than the parents.

Today's parents believe they have blocked access using parental browser controls and/or ISP parent control options. Today's teenagers bypass those by travelling via acceptably addressed proxy servers.

You can do a lot to prevent access by younger children who have limited technical skills, but the technical know-how is going to be within younger and younger children as time passes. Parents are technological dinosaurs next to children/teenagers.

Given:
- you can't stop the production of pornography (too geographically diverse)
- you can't stop the hosting of pornography (too geographically diverse)
- you can't stop the access to pornography (although you can make it more difficult)
- you can't easily spot access to it (if your child is more tech-savvy than you)

What's left? The only thing left is education and guidance. Despite this being an area talked about and promoted frequently, the content is too coy to be necessarily explicit about the range of material available online and how it relates to commonly acceptable realities.

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 15:41:18

Well a lot of ISPs are introducing age restrictions by default now , which can only be a good thing.

But it counts for nowt if a child has duff parents.

I think giving a child an internet enabled phone without restrictions or policing is like dumping them in an adult bookshop for the afternoon.

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 15:43:15

X post

Technotropic Tue 04-Mar-14 21:59:28

RiverMan

Porn's influence is real. Sex education is the answer

Interesting link but there is lots of conflicting data out there.

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6287772

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22987051

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_pornography

RiverMan Tue 04-Mar-14 22:52:47

Well the dilemma is of course you can't do a test to see if violent porn makes people more violent, because they'd all sue you if it did.

But it's worth mentioning in my view that the worst violence against women, like being stoned because you've been raped, happens in very under developed countries. Countries without instant violent porn at everyone's fingertip. So I question that correlation.

I'm not defending violent porn. But I'd question whether the consumption of porn, 'standard' stuff results in unhealthy behaviour any more than drinking results in alcoholism. It happens of course, but as a poster up thread said, the real question is to what extent does it affect people...

It's the binary view that I can't get on with.

And I'd take issue with a Gail Dine's statement in the BBC link. Finding non violent porn is pretty easy, very easy.

horsetowater Wed 05-Mar-14 08:41:22

RCheshire I agree with what you say and there should be guidance, but it would also help a great deal if the Government took a very severe stance on it, set an example by massive prosecutions and very public raids, it has to become a morally repugnant thing again, as it was in the past.

The challenges faced by governments is not that the internet is geographically diverse it is because they don't want to face the conflict involved in order to change this. I don't think it's good enough to say 'well it's out there, there's nothing we can do'. People are starving around the world, do we say that about them? No - we make very clear to other governments that it's not acceptable. It's a bit half-arsed to say the internet is cleverer than us so we can't control the horrific things it condones.

Teenagers are at huge risk of addiction as their brains develop an extra sensitivity to the reward centres. We are treating them like mini adults yet they are, for a time, an almost entirely different species for a number of years with entirely different psychological needs due to this neurodevelopmental stage.

The present stance is pitifully inadequate and I would say neglectful.

RCheshire Wed 05-Mar-14 10:32:17

When you refer to prosecutions and raids are you talking about greater enforcement of the laws that exist or changes in the law to encompass broader content?

If talking about existing laws and focusing on identifying and prosecuting UK-based publishers of 'illegal pornography' (by which I mean that defined as 'obscene' under the OPS (a painfully vague definition by the way)) then I agree that this is simply a question of focus and resources, or to be more blunt - how much the electorate cares.

You can't control the production or publishing of pornography worldwide because not only does each country have it's own approach to legislating against it (or not) but fundamentally each has its own cultural and moral definitions of what is sexually explicit vs obscene. I accept that common agreement on certain genres (e.g. pornography depicting rape) should be easier to get a relatively broad consensus on.

This issue though is that even if you can agree common definitions and legislation on certain genres with a select group of countries (i.e. those you have a relationship with that enables this) then you still have the same content produced and published from those countries that you cannot control.

If you accept you can't control production/publishing/hosting globally then how do you prevent access over the internet to those places it is still available. The simple answer is that you can't, at least not without blanket address bans as per China, N Korea etc, but even then there are ways round it.

There are a number of approaches that I believe could work
- focusing more on the identification and prosecution of producers of illegal pornography in the UK
- Expanding the definition of obscene to specifically target certain genres, e.g. rape
- Working with other countries to agree common governance and legislative approaches for certain genres, e.g. rape.
- Education of children and teenagers beyond that available today.

There are a few approaches I do not believe can work:

- expecting all parents to be more internet security aware than their teenage children. Parents are being lulled into a false sense of security that ISP controls, browser controls and/or reviewing browsing histories are sufficient.

- getting an international consensus against 'milder' pornography, e.g. pornography that presents apparently consensual sex between adults.

- identifying pornography which has been published without the knowledge and/or consent of one or more participants.

There is a shift from 'studio' pornography to 'amateur', and my final point above is one which does concern me. We've all heard of examples of the trauma caused to children/teenagers when pictures/videos have been published without their knowledge. I do not see how this can be prevented. Although (subject to support from hosting companies) the publisher could be identified retrospectively in some cases and prosecuted under the CDA.

RCheshire Wed 05-Mar-14 10:49:54

The other approach of course is changing the UK law to make pornography (challenge #1 is definition) illegal full stop, including the possession/consumption.

I believe this would have an impact on how much was viewed (although I'm not sure how large) but I'm not remotely convinced there is the breadth of support for such a change in the law. Policing it would be as near as impossible as makes no odds. I've some exposure to the police computer forensic audit teams investigating child pornography access - the man-weeks of effort expended for each machine confiscated/investigated may surprise some.

If a major issue for you is public attitude (i.e. the lack of broad moral repugnance) then I believe this could only be addressed by introducing a 'step-gap' between what is acceptable and what is not. Girls in rap music videos were mentioned earlier - that is one example of the sliding scale that makes each next step of material to consume not such a big jump.

RCheshire Wed 05-Mar-14 11:02:02

PS. I may not reply to this again for some time. I have to avoid web distractions and work!

NeoFaust Wed 05-Mar-14 12:56:57

I still struggle to understand why a woman appearing naked should magically alter my opinion of her agency, humanity or otherwise.

It seems like male sexuality is like the White Witches wand in Narnia - you point it in someones direction and poof! suddenly they are less of a person.

I think it's tragic that so many women (feminists in the main) want to perpetuate the victorian idea that women are without sexual agency, or those women that like to explore/expand/display their sexuality are somehow undermining other women. It honestly makes me sick.

NeoFaust Wed 05-Mar-14 12:58:11

Damn, not victorian, behind closed doors they were quite liberal. I mean the goddamn edwardians, with their "men are barely restrained beasts, women unsexed-childlike-victims" mentality. Gives me rage.

Technotropic Wed 05-Mar-14 22:52:53

NeoFaust

I think the majority of feminists on here are of the anti porn side whereas there are many sex positive feminists that do not necessarily think this way. Sadly this type would be given short shrift on MN so this type of discussion only goes one way.

But I agree with your sentiments entirely.

horsetowater Wed 05-Mar-14 23:07:46

Not liking pornography has nothing to do with not accepting that women have sexual agency. Absolutely nothing.

There is no feminist divide here. Pornography isn't entirely a feminist issue, it's an issue of humanity and society - of where do you draw the line, what should be private and what should be public, what should be bought and sold.

You can very easily say that pornography reduces womens power but you can just as easily say that it elevates their power. Ultimately it reduces the power of human relationships, it's a cheap quick way to get sex without the integrity and accountability it deserves.

The power games played out in some porn are more often than not misogynistic and of course that is a feminist issue. But porn per se isn't.

horsetowater Wed 05-Mar-14 23:14:33

I think RCheshire's idea of a step-up is a good one. Let's not have a sliding scale. They only very recently cut misogynistic music videos - was it last year? And Page 3? Glamour models in newspapers read at the family breakfast table is just weird. You'd think they would have phased that out before newspapers died their natural death, which they just about have now.

Neofaust

Your remark about the Edwardians is interesting. I'd have said the Victorians were no different. Care to comment?

RiverMan Thu 06-Mar-14 07:22:49

I agree techno. Had to laugh at a comment up thread about the 'perv patrol'

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 08:21:27

I disagree, I consider myself sex positive but you know, misogyny negative...
Please tell me what's equal about mainstream porn and stop denying that it has strong negative effects

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 08:22:29

horsetowater, misogynistic music videos still very much exist and are extremely popular.

RiverMan Thu 06-Mar-14 09:20:12

amI

You've done a one week course on porn and you're an expert ?

I've watch porn on and off for 20 years ( whilst managing to treat women in RL with respect ) so forgive me for not taking your dogma views as red.

Virtually everything in life has a negative side to it. A sizeable number of relationships involve some pretty nasty aspects , I've yet to see a thread calling for a ban on them !

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 09:32:11

I've done a one week course on porn?!!?!
You may have watched porn but have you actually experienced any of the negative effects? You're not a woman for a start
Just because YOU treat women with respect, it doesn't mean that all viewers of porn do.
This is particularly affecting whole generations of young people, young women and girls who feel like they must do what the women in porn do, even if it physically and mentally hurts them, whole generations of young men and boys who have learnt how to treat a woman during sex FROM PORN i.e. like an object, disrespectfully, selfishly

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 09:32:59

Are you trying to patronise me, RiverMan? hmm

RiverMan Thu 06-Mar-14 09:53:46

Sorry my mistake. You haven't done a week course ... You "watched some research"

I'm even less convinced that makes you an expert on the matter.

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 10:04:37

I have watched enough to see that mainstream porn is focused on the mans pleasure, objectifies women, shows dangerous acts like anal sex followed by a blow job, degrading and physically painful acts (for the women) etc. etc.
More importantly, I am a young women, I am part of the generation that porn has had a huge and damaging effect on!

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 10:10:23

It seems that none of those things matter to you though, I get the impression that you'd rather ignore these issues because YOU don't disrespect women

NeoFaust Thu 06-Mar-14 10:31:20

Toadinthehole I saw a fascinating documentary a while back, which I wish I could remember the name of. It was examining misconceptions about the Victorian attitudes to sexuality and I found it so interesting that I did a bit of digging of my own.

Turns out that when you start looking at diaries, private memoirs and other source materials at the time that the Victorians were relatively sexually liberal when not projecting their formal image. Men carrying on 'hidden' affairs were common (male sexual entitlement throughout history, naturally) but upper class women, after producing an heir, were also subtly permitted a high (if discreet) level of promiscuity. The lower classes, always written out of official histories, were cheerfully bawdy and debauched. Most interestingly the Victorian period was literally when most modern kinks and fetishes originated.

There was an example of a diary that was found where an upstanding, churchgoing middleclass housewife used to dismiss her servants, put on blackface makeup and ask her husband to spank her like a naughty slavegirl. According to her diary the whole mutually satisfactory activity continued for years and was just one example in the documentary that was totally 'wtf?'

The whole neo-puritan family values thing started appearing later in the Empresses reign, at least partially as backlash against the social hypocrisy of the earlier period. The Edwardians, children of the Victorians, took it to extremes - the whole anti-sex attitude, as opposed to pro-discretion, really exploded from this period to infect the nascent suffragette movement and poison a good deal of future feminist discourse.

Examining pro-discretion versus anti-sex is going to be a good starting point to respond to your post horsetowater as soon as I've got a little more work done... please be patient, this is all good intellectual discussion and a little less bitter than I normally get on this topic in the CiF.

RiverMan Thu 06-Mar-14 15:13:22

amI you're just going round in circles.

IMO young men need to be shown an alternative narrative. It exists widely in porn but they choose not to watch it. Improve compulsory sex education ( in the pipeline ) , teach young adults about consent.

If you as a young women were asked to perform a sex act you weren't comfortable with what would you do ?

RiverMan Thu 06-Mar-14 15:19:36

neo interesting post.

NeoFaust Thu 06-Mar-14 16:14:52

AmI

You do realise that for some women "degrading and physically painful acts" are just what they want?

Rare, perhaps, but not as rare as you think; And even so, why should that side of sexuality be a source of shame and repudiation? If people are into that, why shouldn't an industry produce material that fits the niche?

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 22:11:46

RiverMan, porn has affected my generation massively! I have (and so has every woman my age who I know) been asked and pressured into performing sex acts which are demeaning and/or PHYSICALLY PAINFUL!
Young women and girls are EXPECTED to do these things because men have learnt from porn that this is how you treat a woman and that it's what women should do, that we are here to be used for sex and that sex is for the mans pleasure.

Daddyofone Thu 06-Mar-14 22:48:30

Yes I get that. But you're asking for opinion on a board that has a few dads on it. You're in the wrong place if you're seeking to castigate young men.

All I can say other than what I've already said and that you've not engaged with at all is a quote from the Guardian article I linked.

"Porn in and of itself is not the problem; after all, it's just people, having sex, on a screen, sometimes not especially convincingly. No, porn is not the problem: it's the complete and utter absence of any other narrative that is, and the disappointing failure of our government to provide one."

That's my opinion too. You asked. I gave.

Daddyofone Thu 06-Mar-14 22:50:54

Oops.

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:02:24

You may think you 'get it' but are you concerned in any way shape or form about these issues, do you actually give a shit?
No, it's not 'just people, having sex on a screen'! The porn actresses are often abused, MAINSTREAM porn features acts that can be physically and mentally painful.
Just one of many porn actresses experiences, she was abused and suffered injuries as well as contracting diseases and being treated appallingly, these cases are not rare at all.

Link

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:06:37

Genital bruising, anal prolapse, sexually transmitted diseases, HIV and psychological trauma are just a few of the effects working in the porn industry can and do have on the actresses

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:08:45

But it's not just young men who watch porn, Daddyofone...

Technotropic Thu 06-Mar-14 23:14:17

AmI

I provided links that show your beliefs are non conclusive yet you still try to bulldoze your pov. I happen to agree that some porn is misogynistic but its effects are not black and white, unlike your views.

I watched a documentary, 'after porn ends' and it examined a large number of stars and their lives. It's worth a watch although you probably would like to hear that their experiences of the industry were varied. Some regretted it whilst some felt it was the best thing they ever did. It's easy to selectively pick the worst stories but not the ones where women found the industry incredibly rewarding.

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:20:31

MAINSTREAM porn is misogynistic, Technotropic. You can argue that the effects are not black and white but the fact is that my generation have been hugely affected by porn and so are younger people
What do you have to say about this, does it concern you?

Technotropic Thu 06-Mar-14 23:33:18

Ok, so let me put it this way. I read your OP and then decided to learn more to find if your views held water. I did this with a balanced view as a lot of people have a similar view to you.

Yet, as I've posted (including a school education website), the effects are not conclusive so you claim whatever 'facts' you like.

I'm not arguing but presenting information that is readily available on the internet.

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:35:52

But what about real life experiences? hmm

Technotropic Thu 06-Mar-14 23:44:58

We'll given research is based on thousands of real life experiences then I'd say yours is valid but not an indicator of the bigger picture, obviously.

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:49:50

How very odd, what a strange coincidence that porn has had a huge, extremely negative effect on me and the vast majority of young women I know

Technotropic Thu 06-Mar-14 23:54:05

No not odd as I'm not discounting your experience but saying the evidence suggests your claim isn't true.

You clearly don't get what I'm trying to say so let's just leave it as we'll end up going round in circles.

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:54:46

I wouldn't like to tell somebody what they think but this type of denial and refusal to see an issue comes across as apathy to me. The fact that you claim that only a bit of porn is misogynistic gives me the impression that you have no idea about mainstream porn OR that you don't see the objectification and degrading of women as a bad thing?

AmIHumanYet Thu 06-Mar-14 23:57:58

Actually, I understand exactly what you're trying to say and it does come across as you couldn't care less about these issues.
Which claim do you think isn't true? The links you provided each reference a piece of evidence that suggests porn does have a negative effect.
Do you honestly not think the media affects and influences people?

NeoFaust Fri 07-Mar-14 10:02:40

Disagreement is not apathy. Your life experiences can be true; They can also be the minority.

Mainstream porn features acts that my girlfriend and I enjoy together on a regular basis - including the acts that are 'painful' and degrading. She does not consider this abuse because she (enthusiastically) consents. It is not therefore impossible that porn actresses consent, enthusiastically or otherwise, to an experience which they are fully knowledgeable of beforehand. As such, this is not abuse.

Indeed, where is female agency in any of your statements? Or do you believe that these women possess none? Perhaps you should examine your own prejudices against women in these industries - they are not by any means all stupid or unaware just because they make life choices you do not understand.

AmIHumanYet Fri 07-Mar-14 15:53:31

Again NeoFaust, you sound clueless and are missing my points entirely.
WHEN did I even imply that these women are stupid or unaware?! It is obvious to me that you are missing the points on purpose and making my posts into something that they're not.

Just because your girlfriend enjoys certain things, it doesn't mean that women and GIRLS should be EXPECTED to! What part of that don't you understand?
Just because a porn actress consented to appearing in porn, it doesn't mean she consented to Genital bruising, anal prolapse, sexually transmitted diseases, HIV and psychological trauma.
Oh, I forgot, some porn actresses enjoy being hurt, that's fine then.

I have no prejudices against women in these industries, actually. Why haven't you mentioned the men? The men that control what goes on in the industry?

NeoFaust Fri 07-Mar-14 16:15:59

I haven't mentioned the men, because without women legally consenting to participate there would be no industry. I admit that I would like to see more high level women in the industry, but that's true of just about all of them! Those women that are directors and producers are to be applauded for their gumption and drive.

Nobody says girls should be expected to act out what is seen in porn. Indeed, I'd say that the whole 'boys expect x y and z because of porn' is massively inaccurate. You're saying that men are asking women to carry out certain sex acts. So? What's wrong with asking? How is asking someone forcing them or the same as saying there is an expectation? Actually forcing someone to do something sexual against their will is morally foul and illegal, but there is nothing wrong with suggesting sexual activities and definitely nothing wrong with expressing your own sexual preferences. If someone does not share your sexual desires you have every right to try and find someone who does. This is not the same as forcing or expecting - it's the natural pursuit of a fulfilling sex life.

I'm guessing you're going to say these 'preferences' have been instilled by porn and would not otherwise exist. However, you are definitely wrong on that one. Male/female anal sex has been around since the victorian age and probably long before. Solid records exists of just about every perversity imaginable being experimented with at one time or another - it's just now we're throwing of the Neo-Edwardian prudery and both men and women's sexuality is flourishing as never before.

With regards to potential damage that women suffer during porn, I'd point out that the information exists to make women aware of the potential dangers and risks; indeed, in many polities the industry is obligated to provide information, health support and insurance. As such, women are consenting with full awareness of the risk, the same as my brother did when he joined the Forces.

AmIHumanYet Fri 07-Mar-14 17:26:19

Wait, I DID NOT SAY asking, I said EXPECTING. It really is as if you cannot read the words I am saying! Have you heard of the word 'pressurising'?
And YES, women and girls are expected to do things that can demean them and cause them pain.
Do you really think the horrific examples of the childrens experiences I have given are the exception?
Have you watched mainstream porn? Is it centred on the mans pleasure or not? Yes, it is! It gives young viewers false expectations about what sex is like, it teaches boys that it's okay to use women as sex objects.
You seem to think these things are fine though.

I am absolutely appalled that you are trying to justify porn actresses suffering genital bruising, anal prolapse, sexually transmitted diseases, HIV and psychological trauma because 'they consented with full awareness of the risk'
Do you honestly see nothing wrong with what you're saying?

AmIHumanYet Fri 07-Mar-14 17:44:49

& I don't just mean the woman or girl being pressured into certain things during sex, there's also the pressure that comes with living in a society that views women as sex objects, the images and ideas they're bombarded with, peer-pressure, the expectations of men and boys etc

FastLoris Fri 07-Mar-14 22:37:16

AmIHumanYet -

Can I ask: Where did you get the idea that men's oppressive sexual expectations of women were only invented after the onset of internet porn?

You do know that marital rape wasn't even a crime until fairly recently, right?

AmIHumanYet Fri 07-Mar-14 23:16:10

FastLoris, I don't have that idea and have not claimed to during this thread, we live in a patriarchal society and have done for a very long time.
I have raised issues surrounding and related to porn though

Technotropic Sat 08-Mar-14 00:00:17

Have you watched mainstream porn? Is it centred on the mans pleasure or not? Yes, it is! It gives young viewers false expectations about what sex is like, it teaches boys that it's okay to use women as sex objects.

No AmI

Porn does not give anyone anything. people interpret what they will from porn based upon their personal values. This is why research shows your claim to be inconclusive. You forget that people have the ability to make their own minds up and are not thoughtless empty vessels that watch things on TV/DVD and accept it as the norm.

Give people some credit FGS. The trouble with feminists and people like yourself is that you forget people have things called minds and use them to make all sorts of value judgements. Not all people that watch porn are bad and many have quite respectful relations with their partners. Believe it or not, many normal women watch porn nowadays too.

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 00:28:35

This is the point where I stop paying attention- 'The trouble with feminists and people like yourself is that you forget people have things called minds' hmm

OK. Bye then.

Neofaust

Re Edwardian attitudes to sexuality:

The history of sexuality in society interests me greatly and it is a pity that research into it is only now being done. I've never read much on the subject directly, although what I have read bears out your comment and the programme you watched.

Certainly if mediaeval and early modern literature is anything to go by, women's sexuality was something accepted as a fact at all levels of society. It only seems to have started going into the closet in polite society in the eighteenth century. Still, it seems to me that by the start of the Victorian era, women were already seen as sexless.

Against this is of course the dismal continuity of absolute double standards to the detriment of women. Women were expected to keep themselves safe, and "seduction by" a women was, even on the facts as admitted, simply rape of a woman. And while the often-repeated remark that women were legally the property of men is not true, it is not surprising that society should be characterised in that way.

Re the Victorians: I suspect the couple you mentioned are the Kingsleys (the husband being Charles Kingsley, CofE vicar and author of ^The Water Babies^) and it is true that their marriage was pretty remarkable. However, they were exceptional - and very fortunate to be rich enough to have the privacy to express themselves that way. I think we forget just how little privacy people had until after the War. I think the probability is that sexual expression was pretty confined.

As for the Edwardians - I'm prepared to accept that is at the point that female sexuality became most invisible, although possibly not the time that was most sexually repressive - it is too close to the prime of Oscar Wilde and Aubrey Beardsley for starters.

For sheer out-and-out repression, I'd go for the republic of Ireland in the 50s: exemplified by archbishops censoring lingerie catalogues for being provocative - their motive being to protect men from being led into the sin of lust. Now we live in a time when people can be more open about sex - and porn, or so it seems to me, is a contingent part of that openness. I daresay there are people who would prefer no porn to exist - but that seems to go hand in hand with sexual repression - and for that matter - no contraception or abortion. I suspect that the endless debates on porn would generate more light and less heat if people took history into account.

Roussette Sat 08-Mar-14 10:07:43

I only have to see the words 'patriarchal society' and I switch off. I found this thread informative and interesting until I read that.

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 11:19:22

Roussette
It is obvious that we do live in a patriarchal society, I am reminded of that every day and so are many women. If you honestly believe that we don't live in a patriarchal society then maybe you should open your eyes!
Do you believe that women and men are seen as equal in society or do you just think that women are in their rightful place right now? confused

NeoFaust Sat 08-Mar-14 11:31:29

Toadinthehole

Very interesting. Your point about the Kingsley's having the wealth to gain privacy might play into your point about female sexuality starting to vanish in 'polite (rich :D )' society. The middle of the 18th century is roughly when beginning of the rise of the middle classes can be traced.

From what I have read it seems that the middle class culture was (and in many cases still is) abstemious and somewhat puritan in comparison to the aristocracy or the working class - indeed, back in my sociology A level (too many moons ago) our course material characterised it as a deliberate counterpoint. This might explain why feminists have such a difficulty with porn - there has been a lot of soul-searching within feminist discourse lately after claims that it focuses almost exclusively on the desires and wishes of white middle-class women.

Perhaps the vanishing of female sexuality is not a matter of the Victorian or Edwardian eras, but the shifting values of a distinct class, focused on Godliness, Homelife and 'Family Values'. Motherhood was considered the most valued aspect of a woman's life - everything else was ungodly frippery. Middle class values came to dominate the aspiring working class and the 'virtuous' aristocracy, thus spreading the anti-female sexuality messages up and down the hierachy.

All this is pretty shallow analysis, mind you, but isn't it fun to roll this around in the skull and see what connects and comes together? Kudos to AmI for starting the thread, whereever it might now have taken us.

Roussette I know what you mean, I hate the term as well. However if we don't use their language feminists just refuse to engage and if we can't engage, we can't change hearts or minds. Personally, I switch 'patriarchy' for 'The Old Ways', preferably said in dramatic and disapproving tones.

"Times were dark when we followed The Old Ways".
"The Old Ways still cast a shadow on the world".
"If we slip in our vigilance, we will fall back into The Old Ways".

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 11:32:46

NeoFaust, I will ask you aswell,
It is obvious that we do live in a patriarchal society, I am reminded of that every day and so are many women. If you honestly believe that we don't live in a patriarchal society then maybe you should open your eyes!
Do you believe that women and men are seen as equal in society or do you just think that women are in their rightful place right now? confused

NeoFaust Sat 08-Mar-14 12:25:27

There can be no dispute that society still has quite a way to go to eliminate sexism. Women's contributions in the 'traditionally feminine' areas - raising children and caring for the vulnerable - are still hugely undervalued, as can be seen reflected in wages and attitudes towards those areas. Women are still struggling to move into 'traditional masculine' areas, likely as a result of both internalised and external prejudice. Both of these and many other examples of anti-female prejudice intensely anger me - the human race cannot afford to waste the potential of any of it's members, while injustice leads to legitimate resentment and deplorable conflict. I regard the continued dominion of The Old Ways as a stain on our society.

Linking your present question to the overall topic, I strongly believe Female sexuality is one area where The Old Ways still have a huge degree of control. The idea that women cannot or worse should not be permitted free sexual agency is anathema to me. The belief that women lose value due to sexual activity is abhorrent - the virgin/whore complex fills me with rage, whether it's generated by a feminist or religious bigot. Whether someone thinks that a woman who is promiscuous or exhibitionist is a betrayer of their gender or a betrayer of god is irrelevant - the individual espousing it is morally vile. Just as vile are those who think women have no control over their own desires or are somehow responsible for the desires of others.

In conclusion, yes, there is still gendered injustice against women in our society and I think that feminist* attitudes to porn are an excellent example.

*As Technotropic reminded me upthread, the egalitarian strand of feminism tends not to be so proscriptive - but that hardly undermines the point that anti-sexuality (or certainly anti-MALE sexuality) dominates feminist discourse.

NeoFaust Sat 08-Mar-14 12:26:05

Argh! Dominates MAINSTREAM feminist discourse.

Roussette Sat 08-Mar-14 12:41:35

I can't put it better than Neo. It's the term that gets my goat and makes normal women like me switch off. There are very many women out there who understand the feminist point but can't cope with those out there who come out beating their --tits- chest and spouting on about the patriarchal society whilst not listening to reasoned and interesting discussion on a subject such as this. Neo's first para on his last post sums it up for me.

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 13:39:12

NeoFaust, I am a sex-positive woman, I have had lots of sexual partners and see nothing wrong with that. What I do see something wrong with is the expectation boys and men had of me and my all of my peers to perform degrading and physically painful acts, to see it as my duty to provide pleasure with no regards to me own, to be a sex object, to be treated selfishly and to be seen as less important than a man These expectations are the norm in my age group and as I mentioned earlier in the thread, with children

Of course the patriarchy exists, I am reminded of it when I walk down a street, when I switch my TV on, when I speak to my younger siblings or the girls I volunteer with and hear what is happening to them and their peers... when huge numbers of women are raped and/or suffer domestic abuse and are blamed, when I shop for clothes or toys for my daughter...

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 13:42:16

*my own

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 13:44:15

NeoFaust, I think you will find that you're completely wrong, feminists are generally against slut-shaming and the attitudes towards females and sex that you mention. I have absolutely no idea where you could be getting these ideas from!

NeoFaust Sat 08-Mar-14 13:58:11

AmI I was about to simply dismantle your assumptions again (the idea of 'degrading' sex acts to my mind betrays an ugly attitude towards alternative sexual practices) but instead I'm going to ask for some clarification.

What forms do these 'expectations' take? I assumed up page that you were simply referring to men asking, for instance, 'can we try anal'? but I feel I should make sure we are thinking on the same lines. If you're referring to some sort of direct or indirect coercion ("come on, everyone does it, don't be frigid") then this is an example of unaddressed sexual entitlement; Separated from specific acts, this disgusting attitude has been around for millennia but is now part of a package of gendered privileges now being slowly resolved. It can't be considered specifically related to porn just because of it's contemporary flavour.

Roussette Sat 08-Mar-14 14:02:53

Of course the patriarchy exists, I am reminded of it when I walk down a street, when I switch my TV on, when I speak to my younger siblings or the girls I volunteer with and hear what is happening to them and their peers... when huge numbers of women are raped and/or suffer domestic abuse and are blamed, when I shop for clothes or toys for my daughter...

And when you switch the telly on, and you listen to other women and observe some behaviours, do you ever note how men are sometimes derided and emasculated ? It works both ways. There is often the view that a man can't find his way out of a wet paper bag without the help of a woman, and he is portrayed as some bumbling idiot. Women don't deserve to be treated as less, or paid less or demeaned in any way - but men don't deserve to be demeaned either and in trying to level the playing field we are on our way to allowing that to happen. I think half the time men can't do right for doing wrong.

neiljames77 Sat 08-Mar-14 15:02:05

AmIHumanYet - Do you believe in positive discrimination to redress the balance or do you believe that the best PERSON should be chosen for any particular role?

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 15:12:58

NeoFaust, I'm not even going to bother, if you can't understand a simple word like 'expected' and completely disregard the negative effects of certain things on people, including children FFS then I think I'm wasting my time

Roussette- very common silencing tactic 'but things are bad for men too!!!' and you completely ignore things like rape, domestic abuse, child victims of this culture etc. to do so

AmIHumanYet Sat 08-Mar-14 15:14:06

Happy International Women's Day
-sigh-

Jellymum1 Sat 08-Mar-14 15:31:58

I have never met a man who has treated me as if my orgasm and enjoyment is as important as his...and I have been around the block a bit. Mainstream porn turns my stomach really some poor woman getting ragged about. And I am submissive in nature and into kinky stuff but porn doesnt display the deep and meaningful connection you have with a partner AFTER you choked on his c***. Anyway I watch it sometimes but tend to stick yo women's porn, sensual porn ect rather than the look how big your ass hole is if I stand on your head type stuff....

Roussette Sat 08-Mar-14 15:47:41

Well... I have met men who have treated me as if my orgasm and enjoyment is far far more important than his by far and I too have been around the block in my time. I also tend to stick to sensual porn or literary eroticism and I do agree that some mainstream porn is just awful.

AmI - I take offence at me - a woman - completely ignoring rape and domestic abuse. It goes on and it's awful and I was in fact in a professional capacity talking to someone the other day who had suffered at the hands of her husband for very many years - it's not something that goes by unnoticed or brushed under the carpet as far as I'm concerned. I just wish also to look at the other side of the coin with regard to men and 'the patriarchal society'. And I don't think I could silence you even if I wanted to! Which I don't BTW.

notyetpastit Sat 08-Mar-14 15:55:54

JellyMum1 - I am really sorry that your sexual experiences have been only with selfish men. I cam assure you they aren't all selfish.

AmIHumanYet I believe that we do still live in a patriarchal society although it is not as bad as when I was a young(er) winkwoman but there is still a long way to go.

I consider myself a feminist but I don't hate men even if I hate some of the things they do. Women don't have to entirely demean/emasculate men to make ourselves understood or to get what are our rights such as equal pay.

As for porn - I haven't read every post on this thread, sorry - it worries me considerably how easy it is to access porn and I do fear for the sexual education of children now and in the future if this is what they are subjected to.

NeoFaust Sun 09-Mar-14 10:07:27

AmI I'm really trying my best to properly engage with you. I just wanted clarification on your experiences because obviously I haven't experienced them. I'm a man and do not recognise my gender or mentality in anything you describe, or recognise any other men I know. Please, let's try to have an open and reasoned dialogue without assuming the other is being deliberately obtuse. After all, you haven't presented a reasoned argument or non-biased evidence source, but I'm still gamely trying to have an adult discussion.

So again, please clarify what forms these expectations take, because I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting the entirely legitimate search for a sexually compatible partner with someone trying to force you (and the female gender) into a particular mould.

Other people on the thread, please speak out if you've identified a gap in my understanding as If hate for this discussion to end shortly just because I'm missing something obvious.

NeoFaust Sun 09-Mar-14 10:08:43

Dammit *end sourly, sodding auto correct.

AmIHumanYet Sun 09-Mar-14 11:19:06

'So again, please clarify what forms these expectations take, because I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting the entirely legitimate search for a sexually compatible partner with someone trying to force you (and the female gender) into a particular mould.'

I find it EXTREMELY offensive that you are telling me that I have misinterpreted the experiences I have had, I find your attitude to be fucking disgusting and for some reason I don't want to describe to you the times I have done things sexually that I didn't want to, that caused me pain or demeaned me

Technotropic Sun 09-Mar-14 11:19:43

NeoFaust

FWIW I don't think you're missing anything at all and agree with what you've written thus far.

Expectation comes in all shapes/forms, from the small everyday stuff to the other end of the scale. Everyone has some sort of expectation when entering a relatiionship and sex is no different.

In our household we have an extremely balanced relationship and the pleasure of both is equally important, as is our desire to please. I have, however, been on the end of one-way relationships. IMHO just because people have different expectations, it does not mean that any party is more/less obliged to indulge them.

Sadly I think women are on the end of a very thin wedge and when I look at my circle of friends see a lot of selfish males. However, do I think this is wholly attributable to porn? No of course not and in this respect, believe that porn only serves to indulge an already selfish persons view of women.

As I tried to say to AmI previously, people are perfectly capable of distinguishing the 'real' and 'fantasy' and for most, it really is obvious what the differences are.

AmIHumanYet Sun 09-Mar-14 11:24:43

Really, Technotropic? Does that include children? Are children perfectly capable of distinguishing the real and fantasy? Are you going to disregard entire groups of women and girls experiences too?

Technotropic Sun 09-Mar-14 11:46:39

Yes, AmI

Why are you completely bypassing and ignoring the TES link I provided about children and porn. Studies have been conducted with thousands of young children about the expectations you're talking about. Of course your personal experiences are valid but that does not exclude significant research that has been carried out on a wider scale.

But yes, I have no doubt that children are fully capable of distinguishing between what's real and fantasy. Do you have children yourself?

Really, we cannot win and I have seen this kind of reverse argument all the time on MN.

If a non feminist says, "I don't see a pay gap because all the people I know earn the same or more than their male peers", then the typical response is that personal experiences are not as valid because the bigger picture shows that there is a huge pay gap.

If a non feminist says, "I don't see much sexism in my immediate surroundings because I live/work in an equal environment", then the response is the same.

This type of feminist argument occurs constantly on MN. Can you not see this with your approach here?

Neo and others are trying to engage but I feel that this is completely futile as there is absolutely no give/take with you. You're not even intersted in having a rational conversation with him. It should have been patently obvious from your OP that you had only one agenda i.e. to give men a bollocking, and 7 pages on, this has not changed.

How on earth are men/women to engage on various issues if it's really like talking to a brick wall biscuit

NeoFaust Sun 09-Mar-14 12:01:59

AmI I don't want to hear about the specifics your partners sexual requests (though do feel free to share if you think it will aid my understanding), I want to know what form the coercion you obviously felt under took. Was it physical? Emotional? Some sort of social?

You see, I do accept that women are under a lot of pressure in society to confirm to certain roles. I also accept that the pressures on women are different to the pressures on men and, to a degree, more limiting. However I certainly don't agree that the source of that pressure is solely, out even primarily, from men, or that is influenced by porn to any degree other than in its nuance.

I agree with Technotropic that the vast majority of people are able to distinguish between reality and fantasy, and therefore between what they hope for in a partner and the real boundaries of those they fall in love with.

I agree that the access of young people without that understanding to porn is unfortunate - however it is also unfortunate when the far-too-young get access to alcohol, motor vehicles or any of a dozen forms of legitimate adult recreation. That 10 year old who stole his parents car to go to his grandmother - should this make us question the appropriateness of car ownership, or make us more vigilant in parenting?

Also, I should note that you have consistently dismissed the experiences of everyone on this thread who disagrees with you, but none of us have called your attitude disgusting despite its appallingly self-centred arrogance. Please extend us the same courtesy in return.

AmIHumanYet Sun 09-Mar-14 14:03:32

I don't wish to engage with you after your offensive comment regarding me (and the huge groups of women and girls I suppose) misinterpreting the pressure to do certain things and the expectations that men have of us. Silly us, it's our fault hmm

Technotropic Sun 09-Mar-14 14:22:52

So are you saying that women never have any expectations of men?

Expectations are interesting things. My MIL comes from a village where the men are dominated by women. It might be a minority village in the uk but it is a place where women have clear and definite power over their men. Many out earn them but the interesting aspect that I find rather oppressive are things like the need to dress them. My MIL is the same and FIL is not allowed to choose what clothes he wears as he is incapable of working it out for himself. In the village, these women treat their men like dolls, to be fashioned and styled exactly as they see fit. It's quite extraordinary.

It extends to all parts of life too, from what money can be spent, how the house is decorated and how they spend time with their kids. One of the men wanted to be a sahd but was not allowed.

All this within a patriarchal society. Expectations are fine but it should be understood that there is no obligation.

Roussette Sun 09-Mar-14 14:30:47

AmI seeing your post about your awful sexual experiences and being forced to do demeaning things that you just did not want to do, I wonder if you have had any help in dealing with this. What you describe is tantamount to assault, if not rape (I mean this sincerely and not as some point scoring exercise on this thread.)

Not all men are like this. Not all men engage with porn or indeed ever even look at it, and those that do aren't necessarily mysogynist monsters. I have never had a demeaning or nasty sexual experience but maybe I have just been lucky. However, I am feisty and I just don't do anything I don't want to (but I appreciate that there are those out there not so forceful or confident in themselves as me).

I do worry about children and their access to porn because I think it's dark influences can affect those vulnerable children in our society. If they are not being parented with care, mobile access to porn can and will be extremely damaging to children. They need to learn about healthy respectful relationships and sexual education should happen in the classroom and not from some seedy sex site on their mobile. Parents should be doing their very best to ensure their children don't have free access to any sort of porn. Unfortunately, peer pressure to have a smartphone from a young age is prevelant. Somehow or other I think pornography should become 'top shelf' again but god knows how that will happen.

NeoFaust Sun 09-Mar-14 16:05:31

AmI I'm not being dismissive - I've been asking for clarity, to try and understand your position. I've not stated that you or anyone else is misinterpreting their experiences, merely advancing the possibility and asking for you to explain what you have seen so that I can improve my understanding and see things from perspective. Your inability to provide this insight leaves me questioning the veracity of your other statements.

But whatever - you have won the field as I'm bored. I'd need demolition charges to break through that wall of arrogant dogmatism you're trying to use to conceal your obvious misandry. I'm sure that your resentment legitimately, but however much the men who hurt you deserve your hated and contempt I assure you that they are a minority.

I'll leave you with this; you're on the wrong side of history. Bigotry is dying and the rights of prudes to force their oppressive attitudes on the rest of us is dying with it. I'm sorry to be so blunt. I hope you find peace one day, for your daughters sake.

AmIHumanYet Sun 09-Mar-14 16:51:07

Excuse me, NeoFaust... misandry!? You hope I find peace for my daughters sake? All I have done is raise an important issue that is affecting huge groups of women and girls. I have already explained some of the things that are happening, NeoFaust and you have pretty much ignored them.
I have not expressed hatred to men on this thread. I could also say that I don't think you give a shit about the issues I have raised, I have described how they're affecting children and what I have heard from the girls I volunteer with, it's more than unfortunate, NeoFaust.

AmIHumanYet Sun 09-Mar-14 16:59:03

How would being passionate about the rights of women/believing that they should be treated equally to men/believing that they shouldn't be viewed as objects affect my daughter negatively? What a ridiculous thing to say. It's strange how you interpret the belief that women should be equal as hatred of men.

NeoFaust Sun 09-Mar-14 19:42:00

ROFLMAO " It's strange how you interpret the belief that women should be equal as hatred of men ". I've been saying that to gender-feminists for years. Bye!

FastLoris Tue 11-Mar-14 21:51:02

AMI -

I am a sex-positive woman, I have had lots of sexual partners and see nothing wrong with that. What I do see something wrong with is the expectation boys and men had of me and my all of my peers to perform degrading and physically painful acts, to see it as my duty to provide pleasure with no regards to me own, to be a sex object, to be treated selfishly and to be seen as less important than a man These expectations are the norm in my age group and as I mentioned earlier in the thread, with children

RE my point earlier: I have no problem sympathizing with you and agreeing that these things are bad. My problem is with the idea of ascribing them directly to internet porn.

I say that simply because I grew up long before there was any such thing - before even the rise of home VHS players that led to the previous wave of porn video consumption, which seems so tame compared to the present one. And you know what? The boys I knew talked about girls in terms AT LEAST as misogynistic and dehumanizing as I've heard anyone do today. Rape myths were taken for granted. It was taken for granted that if you could get away with raping someone, it was OK. Girls who had multiple partners or appeared to actually like sex were "sluts" and "fair game". It was all there: everything you're talking about, and more.

Maybe there wasn't such a thing about anal, I don't know. That's never been something I'm particularly into anyway so I don't really get the whole thing about it with internet porn. But I don't see how that changes the principle. The idea of being a boy was that you did anything you could to get a girl to do what you wanted, and didn't give a toss about what she wanted. Including getting her practically unconscious with drink if that was the easiest option.

So it has been since time immemorial. Read some history. Nobody learnt this stuff from internet porn. We learnt it from our parents' marriages and the many examples of every sexism embedded in every interaction of everyday life.

Girls need to be taught to be assertive and not feel pressured to do things sexually that they don't want to. No doubt about that. But girls in the 70s needed to be taught that too. As did girls in the 50s - although they weren't taught any such thing; they were just taught to get married and obey whatever their husbands wanted.

There's no evidence that internet porn has led to a rise in sex crime or sexual aggression against women. In fact there's some compelling, if limited and specific, evidence of the contrary. This may seem counterintuitive until you realise that nothing much has really changed, other than that society has become a bit more open about sex - and porn for all its faults is one part of that openness.

Fastloris

I agree absolutely. The recent scandals involving Jimmy Saville and others should remind everyone just how much better things have got. I am too young to remember the 1970s, but I am astonished and appalled at what passed for acceptable behaviour by men to women back then. My mother once said that in the 70s, the decorum ended but the sexism remained. Hence all the groping, fumbling, crude remarks, oppressive behaviour and coercion.

Even in the early 90s, when I turned 18, things were worse than now. I remember a high-profile rape trial where the accused was acquitted on the basis that his victim was drunk. That wouldn't happen now. This is because - in reaction to changing social norms - the law relating to rape has been expanded. Society has become much stricter about the importance of consent. I know someone whose early sexual experience involved his girlfriend slipping him some acid and shagged him while he was off his face. He liked it, but he said he hadn't much idea what was going on at the time. Was it rape? Unquestionably. But back then, not many would have considered it as such, particularly as it was done to a man.

Similarly, while domestic violence and marital rape were becoming unacceptable, there was nothing like the campaigns against them now. As a man growing up in the 90s, I was strongly encouraged to be a 'new man'. But that does not indicate that men treated women back then. Rather, the changes that benefit women now were still taking place back then.

There was also a lot less openness about sex generally, except in certain quarters.

I am not suggesting that women have it great now, but I am suggesting it was worse in the recent past before porn became as ubiquitous as now. And sexual openness historically has gone hand in hand with graphic descriptions of sexual activity, either pictorially and in writing. It's quite natural. I'm not particularly pro or anti the commercial porn industry, and I do believe that the prevalence of porn does have issues. However, trying to put it all back in the box and shouting down those who point out its advantages as the OP has done, does not assist in finding solutions that keep the good and remove the bad.

BreakingDad77 Thu 27-Mar-14 14:33:59

I'd agree with the need for education and that porn is framed correctly, its different aspects. Some people appear to have done well out of it others not very well at all.

I never realised until recently about how some men are affected by porn addiction and this needs addressing.

The sexualisation of young people also needs to be looked at, e.g mums buying trendy thongs/heels etc for their young girls, early porn exposure in boys etc

Yeah, but how many men in percentage terms actually suffer from "porn addiction"? Likewise, where are all these sexualised young girls and boys? I don't see them. And as I've already pointed out, the increasing availability of porn hasn't stopped men's attitudes to women improving.

It strikes me that there is a lot of hysteria about the subject at present.

goatypoos Thu 17-Apr-14 14:46:09

This thread is full of such nonsense, flat out lies and dangerous misinformation.

I've worked in the porn industry for 10 years and have never seen a woman coerced into anything.

Many many women enjoy anal sex and love having their heads pushed down during oral sex.

Not all enjoy that, but many do. If you don't like it, that is obviously fine, but suggesting no woman likes it is ridiculous.

There is no peer reviewed, scientific evidence whatsoever that porn influences adult sexual behaviour. There are some flimsy, badly researched and very badly written papers by anti-porn people claiming that. But no actual evidence.

Women are not being destroyed.

There are many different genres of porn. Female Domination is incredibly popular, there the woman controls the entire situation and degrades the man, who enjoys that activity.

You all need to stop believing what you read in the Daily Mail.

I work with one webcam site where the women regularly earn 3 or 4 thousand dollars for one night's work where often times they don't even get naked and the men pay $4 a minute to talk with them. Who is getting exploited there? The woman or the customer?

Sure, there is some porn that is made to look like the woman is suffering, but it is PRETEND! kink.com shoot before and after interviews with the actors and actresses to prove it is all voluntary and enjoyed.

In the UK at least I have met most of the bigger adult actresses and have never even HEARD of coercion or force. This is a very well paid job and most of the women I know doing it love their jobs.

Woman (and men) that act (key word there, ACT) in porn films make a lot of money, enjoy their work and the hours they have to do.

One could argue that people working in McDonalds or some other low wage job are being exploited much more than adult film stars and no one seems to be moaning about that.

MostWicked Thu 17-Apr-14 20:41:16

I am a woman who enjoys a bit of porn.

If the porn industry only ever produced ethical porn, with consenting adults who were not being abused or pressured in any way, would that be ok?

Or is it more, that you object to some of the sexual acts that some people enjoy? You have described some acts as demeaning, which implies your personal disapproval of them. Their very existence on film, causes you to feel pressured into doing them. Because some people enjoy them, you are pressured by the men you have met. It's a pressure I have never felt from any man. There have been times when I have been asked to do something that I didn't want to do, I simply said no. Most men, when they know how, are more than willing to focus on the woman's pleasure. I personally wouldn't tolerate a selfish lover in a relationship. Maybe we should also be teaching women that it is ok to enjoy sex when it is more than lights out, under the covers, missionary. And you must say no to anything that you don't want to do.

I suspect that it is inconceivable to you, that any woman could truly enjoy anal sex or having their head held during oral sex. I have to say that I love both. I used to avoid watching any anal sex in pornography, because the idea of it never turned me on. It was only after having explored it in real life, that I began watching porn that included it, and the exploration was initiated and controlled by me at every step.
However, I am more than willing to accept that my likes and preferences, may not be the same as the majority of women. Does that mean that my tastes cannot be catered for in porn, because other women then feel pressured to do the same? Boys have ALWAYS pressured girls into doing things, long before internet porn ever existed. Porn is not the cause of the pressure, natural drives, curiosity and hormones are responsible.

I think you have a very limited view of what mainstream porn consists of. I see a lot of lesbian porn and cunnilingus, which wouldn't really fit your description of harmful and focussed on the men's pleasure. I have seen very limited violence, though I suspect that you would include consensual BDSM as violence.

Porn can never be banned, so we have to work with the fact that there is a market for it and there are men and women, more than willing to partake. Parts of the industry do need cleaning up, ethical porn is attempting to offer a meaningful alternative. We also need to protect young children and educate older children. Both boys and girls need to develop healthy attitudes towards sex, which may well include the enjoyment of acts which are not mainstream and which you and others may find distasteful.

Sometimes, (after no sex for 6 years,) I've looked at Youporn. But it makes me gag. Every bloody time. It's so pathetic, sad and boring.

Women being rammed from behind and going oo ahh and then close-ups where blokes squirt their semen in the womens gobs or all over their faces while she gazes at the camera looking like..well. like she's just had a load of semen squirted all over her face or in her gob or around her bum.

It's about as attractive as seeing a hedgehog being killed with a spade.

I feel crap, sad and violated after watching these women being rammed in their bums or having semen squirted all over them.

I have no idea what one does about it.

It makes me feel ill to think/know that my 6 year old son will one day probably watch these women having stinky semen squirted all over their faces and down the backs of their throats til they gag.

He'll grow up like most other men I know - ie thinking it's what women want.

Well it's not what I want. It's defiling.

Oh and to make it even more crap, it's usually ugly blokes with ridiculous sized dicks that they cling on to like their out-of-control palm trees with a will of their own, which they try over and over again like rapists, to ram up the woman's arse.

And then she apparently loves it and then she gets quirts with glue and never even gets a glass of water to help her stop drowning.

yaaaaawn.

goatypoos Fri 25-Apr-14 15:48:35

UnlikelyAmazonian Wed 23-Apr-14 23:26:11
I feel crap, sad and violated after watching these women being rammed in their bums or having semen squirted all over them.
I have no idea what one does about it.

--

Here's a CRAZY idea. Don't watch it. I know, it's out there, isn't it?

But if I don't like something, I don't look at it. Try that approach and let us know how it works out for you.

HTH

goatypoos,

congratulations on a cool MN username and a cool attitude.

You rock.

I wonder if you would apply the same argument if it was your 16 year old daughter being rammed and squirted.

Oh well yes you would. Right?

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