Do you go into the FWR ? And what's your general impression as a man ?

(124 Posts)
MrGin Thu 12-Jul-12 14:11:24

Just that really. I have a young daughter so I'm interested in some women's issues, I find you can't generally post in there without getting accused of one thing of the other.

< prepares for glacial responses possibly followed by mass invasion >

NicholasTeakozy Thu 12-Jul-12 14:40:17

Yes. I post in there occasionally. I do lurk more though.

I have two daughters, and find FWR a great place to get information to help me to help them as they grow up. In the main their ideals coincide with my own.

I realise this is probably not what you expected, but you did ask.

MrGin Thu 12-Jul-12 14:47:44

No really Nicholas I'm just interested in experiences either way. I agree it's a great place to get info.

peoplesrepublicofmeow Fri 13-Jul-12 13:18:21

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername Thu 26-Jul-12 23:44:46

Of course, the radfem sub folder (as well as the suffixing of -chat onto the primary sub-board) was set up as a result of some spectacular infighting that appeared one weekend.

Changlingz Thu 02-Aug-12 07:26:34

I thought it was much better when Dittany was posting. It seems a bit bland now.

And I don't quite understand why a handful of men get upset about a handful of women posting on a tiny part of he Internet.

If you're worried about men's rights or whatever actively campaign, I don't think posting your objections on an anonymous forum is going to change the world.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 04-Aug-12 23:39:54


I found that when the "RadFems" where about there was almost no point in posting.

It is now still fairly hardcore but you don't get chased out of the section.

"If you're worried about men's rights or whatever actively campaign"
what and become one of those nasty MRA/F4J people, I think not. (sarcasm)

What I think we should talk about is more the fact that Saudi women can't go driving cars on their own. Isn't that much more awful?

I think you're playing the victim card, to be honest, I find internet posters always do this and don't think of the real victims of oppression.

Starting a thread like this and not acknowledging the great and manifest discrimination against women who can't go where they want to go, when your issue is so niche, dare I say, so extreme ... well, I find it hard to sympathize. And you know I want to sympathize, so you're making it very hard for me.

(I figured you'd enjoy the spoof, fellas. Hope it raised a little awareness along with the smiles.)

Changlingz Sun 05-Aug-12 05:41:42

'I think you're playing the victim card, to be honest, I find internet posters always do this and don't think of the real victims of oppression.'

Is that what you're doing?

Middle-class woman complaining about how oppressed they are?

HesterBurnitall Sun 05-Aug-12 05:47:05

Nah, LRD is just paraphrasing and parodying many of the posts that appear in FWR threads. She's being lighthearted.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Sun 05-Aug-12 05:58:35

LOL at LRD. wink

I know think I love you.

By the way I'm a radfem, I still post (not in the radfem section though) and I'm not middle class. I lived in poverty for a good chunk of my life, now I'm considered 'poor' according to statistics.

I think feminist topics are heated for many women as well as men, usually feminist issues are based around fairly sensitive topics (eg infantcide, rape, abortion etc)

changelingz - no, sorry, it was a silly joke. There are various posters who used to go into the feminism section and demand everyone should talk about other things instead, that they were interested in. I was just making a serious point in a silly way.

I'll shut up now and let you get on with the thread.

Changlingz Sun 05-Aug-12 11:16:36

Post where you want.

Feminists are famously known for not having a sense of humour, so I didn't spot your joke.

Thanks. smile

You take care now.

tethersphotofinish Sun 05-Aug-12 11:25:36

Good point, changlingz.

Perhaps any joke made by a feminist should have a mandatory BoomTish at the end, to avoid unnecessary confusion.

Can we get a BoomTish smiley?

amybelle1990 Sun 05-Aug-12 13:11:45

I wish rather then just 'feminist' threads they had a gender equality section, because it's incredibly clear that 'feminist issues' can only be resolved/ fully explored with male and female input and vice versa. Feminists that don't allow male discussion clearly don't understand the issues that they are discussing enough.

Just ignore the haters and post where you like. If your opinion is intelligently put forward, they should have nothing to complain about :D

tethersphotofinish Sun 05-Aug-12 14:51:55


Lexagon Sun 05-Aug-12 14:57:29

I find it's usually men who barge into feminist discussions with cries of "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WOMEN IN SAUDI ARABIA???!!!!!! YOU CAN VOTE THEREFORE YOU ARE EQUAL THEREFORE SHUT UP".
Sometimes it seems men just can't handle the fact that their opinions are not needed in a discussion.

ThePan Sun 05-Aug-12 15:14:42

oh this is really unfair laydeez!

You invade our sacred space with your highly developed sense of irony and acerbic wit, mock us with biting satire, charicature, and pastiche that you know we have no chance of every comprehending - it all floats over like a weather balloon.

We'll just have to employ tethers' Boom Tish emocion every time a woman posts something. I mean. We wouldn't want to look silly or anything would we?

Changlingz Sun 05-Aug-12 15:18:24

But if a feminist tells a joke, they can't be a feminist?

They must be a man pretending to be a feminist.

ThePan Sun 05-Aug-12 15:19:24


ThePan Sun 05-Aug-12 15:19:38


ThePan Sun 05-Aug-12 15:22:44

<for any feminists reading, I'll clarify that I was mocking posters mocking others. In case you were wondering. thank you.>

tethersphotofinish Sun 05-Aug-12 15:44:33

There were layers of meaning in your post, Pan. Layers.

I counted at least three.

tethersphotofinish Sun 05-Aug-12 15:46:24


ThePan Sun 05-Aug-12 15:46:55

just the three, tethers?smile

LineRunnerSpartanNaked Sun 05-Aug-12 15:47:05

I counted six. Boom Tish.

Changlingz Sun 05-Aug-12 17:37:31

'Three women walk into a pub and say,

"Hooray, we've colonised a male-dominated joke format".'

Bill Bailey.

BelleDameSansMerci Sun 05-Aug-12 18:58:02


BoneyBackJefferson Sun 05-Aug-12 22:22:57

At this rate we will overtake the snail.

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 13:10:08

Sometimes it seems men just can't handle the fact that their opinions are not needed in a discussion

Is there supposed to be a BoomTish after that ?

I think it's forgotten that the FWR section was set up as an area for discussion about feminist issues, for parents, on a parenting website.

There were certainly some who felt it was a forum solely for feminists, parents or not.

It wasn't or isn't about not being able to post about about men's rights because I'm not interested in discussing those issues here. It's more to do with it being hostile.

BelleDameSansMerci Mon 06-Aug-12 13:20:51

I find AIBU a lot more hostile than the FWR section. I accept that my gender may be the reason.

I have noticed, though, that some of my male friends get very defensive about things that they deem to be "man hating" but which I think are fair comments (often about rape or interpretation of behaviours). I struggle with that a bit as I can't see why they consider these things to be "man hating" when they are "rapist intolerant". I'm not expressing this well. I suppose it's that occasionally held belief that Feminists hate men or that pointing out the inequity of our daily lives makes them feel uncomfortable? As if we think men always have it easier or something?

BelleDameSansMerci Mon 06-Aug-12 13:22:03

Sorry, pointless pontificating and not answering the OP or subsequent posts at all...

Men are very welcome in the FWR section, as long as they tread softly, realising that it is a place where women come to talk about issues faced by women, which, while men may sympathise to some level, they will never fully understand. So we, quite understandably, I hope, get a bit antsy when men come barging in telling is what to think or feel or talk about. We get quite enough of that in RL.

But men who stop by to listen, to learn, to truly try to understand the varying levels of sexist bullshit women are exposed to on a daily basis, and how we actually feel about that, those men are very welcome.

May I suggest that any men who want to understand what it's like to be a woman living in the patriarchy should read through the Everyday Sexism Project. It should open your eyes a little, and hopefully let you understand why men may encounter hostility on FWR, even if they 'mean well' when they post there.


<sneaks back to share the bill bailey love>

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 14:03:55

Ah yes Annie, I see your point.

It would be perhaps a little like a man starting a thread in dadsnet asking for a male views on their experiences, as a man, in the feminist section, and finding a whole range of posts from women telling us where we're going wrong.

Sorry, I know that's a bit sarcastic, and I do welcome your input really, but it illustrates the point. I can only express my view as a man. Because I am one. So often that view is almost by default labelled on the FWR as wanting to derail and talk about the menz.

DuelingFanjo Mon 06-Aug-12 14:08:58

"There were certainly some who felt it was a forum solely for feminists"

I might be a bit stupid but shouldn't everyone be a feminist?

What's the opposite of a feminist?

BTW, not a boom-tish though it does sound like it should be one.

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 14:10:04

Is everyone a feminist ?

DuelingFanjo Mon 06-Aug-12 14:13:27

I don't know, but they should be shouldn't they?

If not then what are they? What's the opposite of a feminist?

LineRunnerSpartanNaked Mon 06-Aug-12 14:13:47

Everyone should want the best for women.

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 14:14:44

Are we talking about women again grin

DuelingFanjo Mon 06-Aug-12 14:15:16

aren't we talking about men and women. About feminists?

DuelingFanjo Mon 06-Aug-12 14:16:30

well, I googled it which is probably not the best for of research but feminism seems to be about "a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women" so not sure why anyone would reasonably not be a feminist. There are always degrees of everything I suppose.

ThePan Mon 06-Aug-12 14:19:01

why should everyone be a feminista? It is very possible to promote and defend womens rights and 'equal' treatment (which means treating people differently) without being a feminist.

DuelingFanjo Mon 06-Aug-12 14:20:57

you possibly have a different definition of a feminist then ThePan?

ThePan Mon 06-Aug-12 14:28:14

I wouldn't presume to define feminists!grin For lots of reasons but mainly there is a spectrum and variety and inconsistency amongst feminists and it isn't homogenous or easily defined, esp. re tactics

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 14:30:56

I think we can be certain that not everyone on the planet, or indeed in MN identifies as a feminist even if they have an interest in the issues and dip their toe into FWR.

Which comes back to the point that the FWR isn't a board for feminists, it's a board to discuss feminism and feminist issues.

ThePan Mon 06-Aug-12 14:31:02

< deliberately and sensibly avoiding the 'proper/right sort of feminist' debacle..>

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Mon 06-Aug-12 14:31:32

Great post Annie, exactly how I feel too.

BelleDameSansMerci Mon 06-Aug-12 14:31:48

Very wise, Pan... wink

ThePan Mon 06-Aug-12 14:33:59

thank you Belley.wink

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 14:35:06

:0 @ Pan.

< gaffa tapes fingers to desk >

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 14:35:32

grin @ Pan even

BelleDameSansMerci Mon 06-Aug-12 14:38:55


I have to gaffa tape (who knew that's how it was spelt?) my fingers when women on here explain why they're not feminists. Well, I have to refrain from typing in capital letters and being very rude about their mental capacities. Which is probably anti-something and bad of me.

MNsFavouriteManHater Mon 06-Aug-12 18:15:45

it's gaffer


tethersphotofinish Mon 06-Aug-12 18:58:58


MNsFavouriteManHater Mon 06-Aug-12 19:00:09

< twirls drumstick around head >

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 19:20:40

it's gaffer


I think you'll find both are correct , but thanks for the pointless post.


MNsFavouriteManHater Mon 06-Aug-12 19:38:46

You are welcome.

MNsFavouriteManHater Mon 06-Aug-12 19:39:32

You need all the traffic you can get on Dadsnet, don't knock it smile

ThePan Mon 06-Aug-12 19:51:09

We have standards. As low as they are.grin

MNsFavouriteManHater Mon 06-Aug-12 19:54:44


Point taken, Mr Gin. But I understood your OP to mean that you were looking resources to help your DD with women's issues. And I, perhaps mistakenly, though that as a woman I could help point you in the right direction.

Not sure why dads need tucking away in a corner of MN though, I wish more men posted all over the place.

tethersphotofinish Mon 06-Aug-12 20:09:39

Indeed. In fact, your low standards are your most attractive feature, Pan. grin

ThePan Mon 06-Aug-12 20:19:06

<bows. farts.>

yellowraincoat Mon 06-Aug-12 20:30:36

Men are always going to have a hard time when they go on FWR and argue against what a feminist says. When I'm told that my experience hasn't really happened by someone who can never really know because they aren't a woman, then I'm probably not going to really enjoy a polite intellectual discussion with them.

I gave up attempting to reason with that argument a long time ago.

All for having men on FWR, but I really wish that more would realise that by the very fact of their not being a woman means they are never going to get feminism like the women on there and they should, therefore, think really carefully about what they're posting and not just go "but men have pressure on them toooooo" 20000 times.

MrGin Mon 06-Aug-12 23:03:51


I like the cut of your jib me lady smile

Pan. Stop with the flatulance grin

Yellowcoat. It's not an issue of turning up and arguing against feminism, the issue is mearly about turning up on the FWR boards as a man. I've never turned up and told anyone their experience is invalid. I don't doubt you've experienced it , but it wasn't me !

And this comes to the root of, my at least , experience. You turn up on FWR and are instantly covered in everyones bad experience with shitty men.

One is judged and pidgenholed based on the mistermeaners of idiots who share my gender. And it makes me wonder about the mechanisms of descrimination and generalizations. Which is good of course.

I find MN in general to be quite sexist, with a fair degree of objectification and , again, it makes me wonder about how much group dynamics comes into play.

I'm sure there are short term male trolls who goad fwr, but I think any man who plays an active part in parenting and MN is unlikely to be such, yet as your post paints we have to start from a stance of defence.

It's almost like if you declare your a man you have to spend eons answering the crimes of others which are of course endless.

As for my daughter ( I always hoped for a dd over a boy fwiw ) my struggle with her obsession with pink and princesses who are being rescued by princess is with , in the softest way, with her mother who encourages it. I look to and put into action things I read in FWR. It has educated me.

I just wish I too could feel comfortable  posting in topics ( on the only web forum I use )  about being my experience of being sexually assulted by men, or my concerns about my daughter, or my views on PIV sex , or cmy views about make up on children, or my...... it does go on , I think it's sad things are seen in such divided terms. That a man can't share any of these experiences, doesn't have anything valid to contribute by virtue of gender. Good and bad. 

yellowraincoat Mon 06-Aug-12 23:07:32

MrGin the thing is though there may be objectification of men (I very rarely see it, I have to say) but it is not the same as when women are objectified, because women do not have power in the same way as men.

MNsFavouriteManHater Mon 06-Aug-12 23:15:06

MrG, perhaps you could start a group for men to talk about feminist issues, and how they affect men ?

Would that work ?

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 07-Aug-12 13:56:59

You can usually tell who the trolls are because they go away.

Unfortunately there have also been non-troll posters who have been chased off the boards by bloody minded posters who have decided that they are trolls.

But IME this happens on all forums not just this one.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 14:10:46

On the same token, some feminists have been run off too (not by anyone of this thread that I'm aware of, thinking of Dittany)

I think it's sad when we can't all have friendly debates. Heated, but friendly. Of course there are posters I don't like, and I'm sure there are posters who don't like me; just like in real life. I think it's a shame that -not just in FWR- some people can get so personal.

Pointless addition to the thread, probably too lovey dovey with all the 'let's all get along' stuff lol.

Now let's forget our troubles with a big bowl of strawberry ice-cream! --Stupid Simpsons feminist joke- blush

ThePan Tue 07-Aug-12 14:20:05

You can not be serious, Lurking. You are suggesting that dittany was 'run off' the FWR boards? I recall it that she was shown to be deeply and personally manipulative and dishonest, as well as using bullying tactics off the site when other feminists disagreed with her. After those revelations she had nowhere to go. In the interests of balance, she was also fairly dishonest and unpleasant toward anyone who disagreed with her on the site as well, male or female.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 14:39:27

There was some sort of Facebook business that came onto the forums, so IMO whether people agreed with her or not she was seriously attacked for personal reasons not relevant to FWR. She had very strong opinions, not all I agreed with but from what I saw, she was ganged up on.

I haven't been on the forums for very long so I don't know history between posters etc so I can only comment on what I saw, but I do believe just because one poster can be seen as a bully, doesn't give others the right to gang up IYSWIM? Two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz.

Dittany was just an innocent example, I genuinely didn't mean to raise anyone's hackles. Hell, I have no idea why she left. Perhaps I should have used somebody else, I wasn't meaning to piss anyone off.

ThePan Tue 07-Aug-12 14:55:38

She wasn't 'ganged up' upon either. But it's a bit redundant/useless picking the bones over it. Am sure lots of that sort of stuff has been done already.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 14:58:03


yellowraincoat Tue 07-Aug-12 14:59:33

To be honest, I never really see what people mean by "ganging up" on a forum. If I disagree with someone, I'll say so, if a lot of other people also disagree, it doesn't mean we're ganging up on them.

ThePan Tue 07-Aug-12 15:04:51

I suppose the FWR section had/has a fairly rarified atmosphere, a bit stylised where it is fairly easy to attract negative attention IF one doesn't employ the correct vocabulary. If you're a male this has been held against people on occasion as further evidence of their 'misogeny' and oppressor role, when simply they're diction was at fault.
As Boney says, the genuine trolls lack stamina.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 15:11:12

I really should have used a different example. blush Genuinely didn't mean to stir, sorry.

ThePan Tue 07-Aug-12 15:14:22

Lurking - you're right though - other women posting there have stated they have been 'discouraged' in posting there eg Leningrad, and SGM amongst others. I think a lot of it has cooled down now, though someone was complaining the other day it's become more boring. Like FWR posting should be an Olympic event.grin

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 15:18:11

Admit it, you'd watch it if it was an Olympic event!

MN vs F4J. grin

yellowraincoat Tue 07-Aug-12 15:19:37

I don't think it's become more boring at all. I think it's become more respectful, you can actually have a conversation without it descending into chaos.

kickassangel Tue 07-Aug-12 15:20:46

I think that a feminist is anyone who thinks that men and women are equal and should be treated equally. Sadly, there are not as many of those people as there should be. I think it's a bit sad that there even has to be a feminist section, just as we should never have needed a civil rights movement.

Anyway, I think a lot of posters like people joining in the discussions, whether male or female. I certainly think it's great that parents consider the impact of gender roles on their children.

Mr gin you could try reading 'Cinderella ate my daughter' or 'the Cinderella complex'. Both address the role of Disney pink in the lives of young girls.

I would do links but that would mean going to the laptop and I am being kneaded to death by a needy cat. (boom tish)

kickassangel Tue 07-Aug-12 15:26:49

And Pan, I heart you completely, but you should learn to spell myso misogeny misogeny misogyny.

Or is my iPad wrong?

Boom tish

Folk saying that the FWR section can get a bit hairy are right, and that applies to women too. There is a very small minority of radfems who sometimes express themselves in a way that makes you think that if you don't agree with them you're not a Proper Feminist. But that's bullshit, if you think women and men should be equal, you're a feminist and the rest is details.

It takes some backbone to ignore them sometimes, but ignoring is the only way forward because I've found arguing debate is useless. They start using bigger and more complicated words until you're so baffled you don't know whether you're coming or going.

The majority, though less shouty and thus less obvious, are welcoming, and diverse in their own personal feminist philosophy. They realise that their own philosophy is just that - their own - and don't try to shout down anyone who disagrees.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 16:07:45

I'm a radfem and I so agree on the big words! I find myself using Google: Define way too often. blush

NicholasTeakozy Tue 07-Aug-12 16:21:52

It can get lairy in there, that's when I avoid posting.

kickassangel Tue 07-Aug-12 20:31:18

I think that part of the problem is the range of ideas. If there was a section about Communism, you'd find a range of people from those who've read every political treatise on this, to those who just think it must be nice to share.

The same is true in FWR. Since going on that board I have been reading a lot more fem. writing, and there are some things that are just 'givens' if you've read the lit. Other people are just talking about their own ideas and experiences. It can make debate difficult as people are coming from such different backgrounds, even if they agree on what they want to say.

e.g. the concept of 'other'. If you've read Simone de Beauvoir then you get what is meant when someone says 'you're just saying that because you see me as other'. If you haven't read it, or don't know the concept, then that sentence doesn't even make sense. It's frustrating for both sides when trying to discuss along those lines.

I try to cite (or at least know the author, if not full ref.) of some things, but that can sound very condescending.

Sorry, Gin, I hope this feels like a discussion and engagement with your main point, not an invasion.

And yes, in every political arena, there will always be some who just like to be shouty, but I don't think that feminists are alone in that.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 07-Aug-12 21:50:47

would it be worthwhile putting together a list of "given" things then those that know could point the rest of us in the direction of the list.

But and its a big but it would have to be put together by those in the know.

MNsFavouriteManHater Tue 07-Aug-12 22:27:53

Boney, the problem with that, and it's been said countless times in FWR, is that it is no-one else's responsibility but your own to educate yourself

you don't go into the Litter Tray (for example) and say "so, what's the basics of them pussies then ?"

you would quite understandably be told to "go and read a book" wouldn't you ?

why would you expect feminists to be any more patient, understanding and willing to take you through the "givens" than anyone else ?

yellowraincoat Tue 07-Aug-12 22:30:51

I don't think the problem is that people don't want to educate. Plenty of people on FWR (and the animal sections of MN) seem to be more than happy to give advice and basic education.

I think the problem is that there are very few givens in feminism. You might have someone saying "pornography is abuse" as a given, and a lot of liberal feminists going "hold on, no it's not."

Causes more problems than it solves.

kickassangel Wed 08-Aug-12 02:21:41

Well, I've read a few books, and think I understand what people mean when they use the word 'other' but would hesitate to give a succinct and meaningful summary.

I don't think that any kind of ideology/politics can be summed up with a crib sheet like that, but there are books on it. I've got a little spiral bound thing that's like a one page summary of the main 'thinkers' in feminism.

As in any discussion, I think people should try to be aware of how knowledgeable they are and try to defer to someone who at least sounds like they know what they're on about.

People's opinions are always valid, but a lot of us have some experience of knowing/being female, and a few people then think they have the right to push their opinions even when they are only opinions, and they obviously have done little research/reading on the matter.

The same happens in 'education'. Lots of people have their own pet theories, and think that they must be right, just because they have experienced education. Even as a teacher, my experiences are fairly meaningless as they're statistically invalid. If someone was on an education board who appeared to know a lot of the latest research etc, I would defer to their better knowledge, not just keep spouting my own experiences. It doesn't mean my experiences were any less real for me, but they don't help much (except as witty anecdotes) when discussing the theories of education.

Mmm, not sure I agree about deferring to someone who sounds like they know what they're on about.

I think that's a really interesting issue, how people 'sound' when they're knowledgeable/authoritative. There are all sorts of ways of expressing yourself that imply authority and they're all quite different. If you use debate-club rhetoric, lots of complex Latinate syntax and long words, you might sound authoritative to one person; another would just find it confusing or would think you were being pretentious. If you use jargon like 'patriarchy', again, some people will appreciate you for using a term that has a precise frame of reference to them; others will not understand what's meant or will react against jargon because jargon is implicitly exclusive.

Personally, my hackles do rise when someone expects different treatment because of the way they think they sound - it happens a lot in my real life.

I know not everyone finds it easy to put good ideas into words that will be clear to lots of people (I really don't), but I don't think it's a good idea to judge content by how authoritative the speaker sounds.

kickassangel Wed 08-Aug-12 12:26:40

I'm meaning more when someone can give stats or references rather than form of expression, compared with someone who is just going off personal experience.

So, 'if you read ... And look at this survey' rather than 'all my friends do this'.

I hang out on education and fem (and other places) and find that often people put personal experience over any kind of statistical evidence.

Ah, fair enough.

I know I'm rubbish at citing statistics, but often notice people citing statstics badly, so I may be biased!

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 08-Aug-12 13:45:42

I'm not advocating you educating myself or anyone else.

but somw pointers would be nice

MNsFavouriteManHater Wed 08-Aug-12 13:54:58

There was a Feminism 101 thread at one point. Did that die a death ?

MNsFavouriteManHater Wed 08-Aug-12 13:55:35

Never mind, it was probs trolled by MRA-types. Silly me. wink

What pointers did you want, boney? I'm not very well read but I can probably point you in the right direction - just googling works for me, too, you'll find lots of blogs and I just click through until I find one saying something interesting.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 08-Aug-12 15:06:14

TBH I'm not sure what I want smile

Its more a case of being able to ask when something comes up and google brings 50,000 results.

I pretty much do the blog thing as well.

Fair enough, I know what you mean. I think the problem is, 'when something comes up' tends to be in the middle of discussions, and it's not rocket science to realize people tend to be, well, in the middle of discussions then. It's like in a pub - I don't jump into the middle of animated discussions about football to ask what the offside rule is. By the time the discussion is over, I've usually forgotten what the heck I was asking (and so I still languish in ignorance of that particular one), but, well .... if I cared enough I'm sure I'd remember another time.

(I'm not saying don't ask stuff, I think often during discussions some kind soul does take a break to go through the 101, but it's not fair to expect it). It's human nature, it's like if in my pub conversation I broke in to make a comment that showed I didn't know what I was talking about, even people who'd usually be fine with sitting me down to explain the basics are likely to want me not to spoil what they're in the middle of.

Shirazyum Wed 08-Aug-12 15:35:18

Many of you will probably have found this site, but I only recently discovered that it has excellent summaries re feminism. I agree that a crib sheet will always generate more disagreement than clarification but this site has helped me enormously when trying to follow conversations about different types of feminism.

I have not read everything in Stanford, however no where yet have I found a convincing argument against men being feminist. I hope my sons are anyway...

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 08-Aug-12 16:27:40


that is exactly it, I spend more time looking up the discussions than I do taking part.


Thanks for that, its one that I don't have.

MNsFavouriteManHater Wed 08-Aug-12 17:09:47

I don't have any truck with any arguments that men cannot have Feminist principles

I would argue that they can never possibly experience the visceral reasoning behind the feelings, though

MNsFavouriteManHater Wed 08-Aug-12 17:11:17

Bogey MrG tells us that his motivation for wanting to know more about Feminism is to be a better parent to his daughter

what is yours ? That's a personal question you don't have to answer if you don't want to, of course

boney - oh, absolutely, me too!

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 09-Aug-12 10:49:55


I have written this down 8 or 9 times know and it still isn't really right but in a nut shell:-

Similar to MrGin to start with in that although I don't have a daughter I have nieces, but when I started teaching I started to see behaviour that was accepted as normal that was just wrong and I wanted to be able to explain (in depth) why it was wrong not just in a "What would you feel like if X happened to your sister" (it doesn't always work) but in a much more in depth way making them think about their actions.

There is much more to it.

I wonder if there are blogs about teachers and feminism? It seems to be one of those professions where a lot of members are saying the same things you're saying.

I just started doing a tiny bit of teaching with young adults and it is good to think that people in schools are really getting behind some of these issues - I don't think that was so common when we were at school.

Changlingz Thu 09-Aug-12 11:24:49

I read an interesting exchange recently where RadFemHub fell out with Julie Bindel.

Now what's that all about?

Oh, yes, I heard about some of that, but not all of it.

Basically, Julie Bindel has in the past been very outspoken about her views about radical feminism and transsexualism, specifically I believe Male-to-female transsexualism. She was anti, she got a lot of flack for it.

More recently she modified her stance.

Some people on radfemhub disagreed with this and, in my impression, didn't see that she might be partly modifying her stance in the interests of getting a debate going that had descended into complete hostility, and of avoiding some really scary threats.

That's all I really know.

Changlingz Thu 09-Aug-12 11:35:31

I'll investigate more.
I've only ever met two trans, but I suppose I wouldn't know others could have been and I wouldn't realise.

Both were male to female, and didn't seem very happy (or convincing)

I don't really get the radfem versus trans, it seems to me they'd be bigger battles to win.

I get it, but I'd rather not get into it as I think it's both incredibly sad (for both sides), and incredibly complicated.

I think the 'bigger battles' thing always depends where you stand - I think you have to realize that for someone who has gone through something as big as that, even if to you they don't seem happy, they are naturally going to feel it's a huge battle. Same with some feminists, I think, who also have lots invested.

Changlingz Thu 09-Aug-12 11:37:50

But my view on feminism in the UK.

I think men were encouraged to take more of a hands on roll with their children, it's happening but I don't think a lot of women are ready to lose the main-carer tag.

My ex found it difficult. She was judged a lot.

Yes, I've seen that on here, women worrying that if they're not at home with the children they must be bad parents. It's an interesting one for me, because we don't have children yet but my DH really wants to be the one who stays home, because his dad did and he just likes the idea. Of course I don't know how it will work out in reality because you can never quite predict these things, but it has made me notice how slowly attitudes change.

This is completely off-topic, btw, but I was watching a programme about Amish culture the other day - it was, to me, completely off-the-wall in many ways and they had very rigid ideas of the man's role and the woman's role - but something that struck me was the dad saying that he was taking a different, less well-paid job because he felt he had to spend time with his children more. He was saying that that's how you build a relationship, lots and lots of time. It was really beautifully put and made me think.

MNsFavouriteManHater Thu 09-Aug-12 18:31:59

thanks for answering Bogey, it helps when you know where people are coming from

I don't understand why you had such a hard time articulating what you meant though. You are a teacher, you want to guide the children you have influence over, of both genders, in an equitable manner. Fair play.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 09-Aug-12 23:26:20

I think that I over think thingssmile

But there is a N in the name smile

MNsFavouriteManHater Thu 09-Aug-12 23:28:31

eh ?

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 09-Aug-12 23:46:41

you keep calling me boGey

Its boNey smile

MNsFavouriteManHater Thu 09-Aug-12 23:50:12

God, so I do

sorry about that


Pan Mon 31-Dec-12 17:57:49

So what's the current thinking on this? For me it's changed quite a bit. I don't ever post in FWR anymore, or even habitually lurk as I used to. Is it worth another go? Do chaps still post there?

Xenia Mon 31-Dec-12 18:17:33

Loads of men particularly fathers of daughters want to ensure fairness. I think it is inherent in most human beings. What can fathers do to help daughters (and sons for that matter)?
Don't let your wife go part time. Ensure you and she do the same jobs at home so there is no gender divide. Buy girls pen knives (I loved mine). Don't assume girls hate sport and do that stupid sexist father and son stuff which excludes girls. Girls love to climb trees and play with rope so make sure they aren't given clothes which restrict them from doing that kind of thing. Teach them that women often earn a fortune as leading business women and accountants and the like rather than girls serve and clean at home whilst men earn. Don't criticise them for characteristics which you would not criticise a boy for,. Don't go on about their looks all the time as if that is all that matters. Don't say - good girl you are pretty as if that were something they controlled or were admirable.

Pan Mon 31-Dec-12 18:22:59

Erm..well thanks for that Xenia, but, for me I wasn't asking how to be a good father, as much as I agree with a bit of what you say, globally. (pen knives hmm).
I was just wondering about Dadsnet chaps posting in FWR. Is all.

Xenia Mon 31-Dec-12 21:16:58

Of course men can post in feminist threads. I spend a lot of time trying to ensure equality for men, to ensure they have as much right to stay home as their wives, to ensure after divorce they have their children half the time, for all kinds of ways men are discriminated against often in ways which actually damage women too as they get lumbered with too much domestic stuff.

Pan Mon 31-Dec-12 22:18:32

Okay. You're still missing the point, I'm afraid. But thanks.

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