Violence against women - how we tune out of it..

(115 Posts)
Pan Sat 02-Nov-13 12:51:19

Interesting TED Talk about this issue and how we see such violence as women's issues.
It's about 17 mins long BUT your attention will be grabbed within seconds.

What do we think?

It covers the whole matter much in the way as I see it.

Pan Tue 05-Nov-13 13:25:54

Husband , must admit to being with others in not recognising the 'play fight' analysis. Yes for some lads who are belting each other and when asked why they say "Because we're mates!"...which can be quite smile on one level.
In reality the explanations go like this generally:
- I was pissed (sometimes deliberately so..)
- I thought she fancied/was shagging someone else, veeerry common.
- she knows how to push my buttons
- it was just a slap and she fell over hence the injuries.
- I have an anger management problem ( though only shows any evidence of hitting women)
- I only hit her because I love her so much.

Appreciate this isn't news just in to lots of folk, it seemed worth saying though to separate out the reality from 'play fights gone too far' notions.

Pan Tue 05-Nov-13 13:34:07

Also:
- I was under stress, it was out of character. (well it's just been evidenced that it's actually part of your character...)

Paleodad Tue 05-Nov-13 13:40:22

not a mis-thread but perhaps a correct identification of a pejorative (if unintended?) use of the noun, assuming that partridge interprets Husband's use of 'Miss' in a 'silly young woman' kind of way?
Not to heap more criticism on Husband, but it does seem to be thus.

Pan Tue 05-Nov-13 13:41:42

oh I seeee! Missed that. Thanks Paleo.

APartridgeAmongThePigeons Tue 05-Nov-13 13:46:45

What Paleo said. (but in a cleverer way)

Paleodad Tue 05-Nov-13 13:48:58

thanks, but not cleverer (had to google correct spelling pejorative....)

Paleodad Tue 05-Nov-13 13:50:33

see: *of pejorative

Pan Tue 05-Nov-13 13:57:43

If anyone's got further stomach for it, here's the other TED I'd lost.
about the recognition of sexually abusive conduct
I like esp. the bit 2 mins in where he asks 'what do men do on a daily basis to ensure they aren't molested'.

A sceptic could say 'well these are rich successful m/c men spouting off to the less successful in life'. One defensive posture, yes. But,
- they are doing it when they could be doing something else/earning more money.
- they are speaking up and as likely getting judged and insulted on-line for it.
- it's more effective when a man says it, for lots of reasons.
- importantly, it doesn't change the message whatsoever.

Back to "working at home for the day". Ha.

APartridgeAmongThePigeons Tue 05-Nov-13 14:04:31

I had to google cleverer!

I wrote it then it looked just like clevererererer in my head. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to say more clever. Wiki answers assures me my cleverer is right though.

Paleodad Tue 05-Nov-13 14:19:53

not to derail, but 'cleverer' does just look/sound just wrong doesn't it, i checked too.

Biggedybiggedybongsoitis Tue 05-Nov-13 16:14:05

It's an interesting talk, Pan, and one I have seen before. However, I think this one gets closer to the root of the problem;

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVI1Xutc_Ws

Let me know what you think.

Pan Wed 06-Nov-13 11:07:47

Well that was hard-hitting wasn't it Biggedy!

I'd agree with a lot of it, especially the alexithymia notion, that men are prone to not be able to produce a description of how they are feeling esp at times of high emotion and will rather walk away from that challenge. And certainly that a cause of that is a discouragement to not reflect on our own feelings, and so not have a 'vocabulary' for them. I'd recognise that in me from time to time, where I'd take a time-out and order myself better when others have an easier avenue to how they express themselves.

The first 3 elements he talked of (sports achievement, money and sexual prowess) are a bit tricky, in that overall, women often give credence to those things too, with other things being equal. And those 'validations' are immediate and gratifying so become rather attractive, imo. They don't require much emotional effort, or challenge, but the 'rewards' are satisfying in the short term and when young that's the time period people tend to think in.

I'd also question the 'team' ideal of mutual respect and dignity bit. Successful teams do not have to even like other team members. Conflict is a useful engine to manage improved performance. As a manager/leader I'd spent waaay too long under this illusion, and wasted time in trying to resolve differences etc (and these are/were female-dominated teams). Until realising I don;t care too much about how/what you think of each other, only at how any of that impinges on the quality of service our client group gets.

Backonthefence Fri 08-Nov-13 01:46:45

Hey pale,

I see you and pan are of the same mind in that aggression in males is totally socialised. Whilst I would agree that the level of aggression a population may have will be affected by their society I still believe males on average have a higher tendency for aggression.

This is because hormone levels between the sexes differ and hormones have a huge impact on behaviour. Many people think that humans are on some higher plane we are not virtually all our basic behaviour and actions is similar to other mammals.

In virtually all mammals the males of the species are more aggressive. You then have the fact that the males are on average larger than the females for the sole purpose of aggression and generally against males of their own kind.

Now I am not saying violence is enivitable just that we should set up a plan with the right goal and not go for an unrealistic and unobtainable goal.

Backonthefence Fri 08-Nov-13 01:46:49

Hey pale,

I see you and pan are of the same mind in that aggression in males is totally socialised. Whilst I would agree that the level of aggression a population may have will be affected by their society I still believe males on average have a higher tendency for aggression.

This is because hormone levels between the sexes differ and hormones have a huge impact on behaviour. Many people think that humans are on some higher plane we are not virtually all our basic behaviour and actions is similar to other mammals.

In virtually all mammals the males of the species are more aggressive. You then have the fact that the males are on average larger than the females for the sole purpose of aggression and generally against males of their own kind.

Now I am not saying violence is enivitable just that we should set up a plan with the right goal and not go for an unrealistic and unobtainable goal.

Backonthefence Fri 08-Nov-13 01:46:57

Hey pale,

I see you and pan are of the same mind in that aggression in males is totally socialised. Whilst I would agree that the level of aggression a population may have will be affected by their society I still believe males on average have a higher tendency for aggression.

This is because hormone levels between the sexes differ and hormones have a huge impact on behaviour. Many people think that humans are on some higher plane we are not virtually all our basic behaviour and actions is similar to other mammals.

In virtually all mammals the males of the species are more aggressive. You then have the fact that the males are on average larger than the females for the sole purpose of aggression and generally against males of their own kind.

Now I am not saying violence is enivitable just that we should set up a plan with the right goal and not go for an unrealistic and unobtainable goal.

Backonthefence Fri 08-Nov-13 01:47:06

Hey pale,

I see you and pan are of the same mind in that aggression in males is totally socialised. Whilst I would agree that the level of aggression a population may have will be affected by their society I still believe males on average have a higher tendency for aggression.

This is because hormone levels between the sexes differ and hormones have a huge impact on behaviour. Many people think that humans are on some higher plane we are not virtually all our basic behaviour and actions is similar to other mammals.

In virtually all mammals the males of the species are more aggressive. You then have the fact that the males are on average larger than the females for the sole purpose of aggression and generally against males of their own kind.

Now I am not saying violence is enivitable just that we should set up a plan with the right goal and not go for an unrealistic and unobtainable goal.

Backonthefence Fri 08-Nov-13 01:47:08

Hey pale,

I see you and pan are of the same mind in that aggression in males is totally socialised. Whilst I would agree that the level of aggression a population may have will be affected by their society I still believe males on average have a higher tendency for aggression.

This is because hormone levels between the sexes differ and hormones have a huge impact on behaviour. Many people think that humans are on some higher plane we are not virtually all our basic behaviour and actions is similar to other mammals.

In virtually all mammals the males of the species are more aggressive. You then have the fact that the males are on average larger than the females for the sole purpose of aggression and generally against males of their own kind.

Now I am not saying violence is enivitable just that we should set up a plan with the right goal and not go for an unrealistic and unobtainable goal.

Backonthefence Fri 08-Nov-13 01:49:23

Omg stupid phone sorry some major mishap there.....

Daddyofone Fri 08-Nov-13 07:14:49

I'd agree with all of it. I think the underlaying reasons are partly socialised , partly biological and partly socio-economic. I'd throw religious dogma in there too.

I'd note that in the OPs original video the guy mentions the military a lot. I'd think that if you ask someone to be a professional killer, and put them in a war zone , and then ignore their PTSD and fly them home, it's a recipie for disaster.

At a guess I'd bet that cases of DV in military families shoots up after troops return home. I suppose you could argue that this is socialisation in that we largely ask men to do the dangerous unpleasant stuff. But I think the solution there is more in supplying specialist professional help like the guy in the original video offers ( I think )

That's not to say men shouldn't be vocal about how unacceptable DV is, but I don't agree it's purely down to socialisation or any kind of prevailing attitude towards women. I think a lot of factors come into play.

I agree with you Daddy that a lot of factors come into play. And I've heard a lot about DV in soldiers: I agree too that there needs to be lots of help for people returning from war zones. I think PTSD isn't well supported in the main, and I'm sure that contributes to the number of ex-service personnel becoming homeless.

I don't think there are any easy answers.

Backonthefence Fri 08-Nov-13 13:58:44

Accepting it will lead to a greater understanding rather than trying to hide it or believe it is not an issue.

I personally feel for something like this you would need to target boys earlier. Its a bit like when elderly people make racist comments, people tend to ignore it and say they are stuck in their ways.

But how can you reduce violence against women without trying to reduce violence in general. Men assault and kill other men in greater numbers than they do women. Would it not be best to aim to reduce violence overall?

lostdad Fri 08-Nov-13 17:08:49

I'm an old-fashioned soul. I think violence against anyone regardless of their gender is unacceptable.

I would also question the motives of anyone who considers violence against one particular section of the population is worse than violence against any others too.

Pan Fri 08-Nov-13 17:33:52

lostdad evening!

yeah of course any violence is unacceptable, irrespective of gender.

I'm a bit curious about wot you mean about the last bit - I'm failing to see anywhere here where there is a competition for importance being set up?

Can I guess at what you mean? Is it because the video didn't address female violence? Or violence in general?

I'd think the video maker was pretty straight-foward about what he was looking at, and not looking at. As I was when I saw it. He had 20 mins max ( I think that's the TED limit) and so did his stuff on one aspect.

or have I guessed utterly wrongly?grin

RE the 'importance' I would say that violence where most damage is caused would appear on a hierarchy of violence. Where children are hit or witness abuse, where it is done by someone much bigger onto someone much smaller, where other more vulnerable people suffer, and where it is regular and 'hidden'. I'd wouldn't be 'suspicious' of the motives of people who wish to prioritise on gender lines once they have explained themselves perhaps.

Am I catching your drift at all? < 70's refugee here..>

Pan Fri 08-Nov-13 18:24:24

In fact, to add, I wouldn't mind commencing a thread about female violence and it's profile. I've been subject this, and one accusation of committing an act of violence on a female partner, so if/when I have the space yes.
Violence and the fear/threat of it is so compromising of a good quality of life.

Daddyofone Fri 08-Nov-13 22:57:06

backonthefence but don't you think boys are already ingrained with the idea that 'hitting girls' is unacceptable ? It certainly was when I was a lad.

You could hit boys of course, or be hit by them. But if a boy started hitting a girl he would have been demonised by virtually the entire school.

I've a fuzzy recollection that the DV figures in the UK have a very large slant towards poorer areas. And I can well imagine that if you take a couple who possibly aren't that well suited, put them in an acutely cramped home, take away any chance of work, introduce drugs and alcohol , stress, and offer a crap education, a crap childhood, It's like a tinderbox just waiting to go off.

I think everyone is capable of it if you push them enough.

lostdad I agree wholeheartedly. Any violence is terrible. I know the feminists bring up the 2 women a week figure a lot, which is terrible truly, but if you have a son and a daughter, your son is far more likely to be murdered. But it doesn't really help to find a solution to just focus on one gender. We're all potentially at risk from mad violent fuckers.

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