ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Violence against women - how we tune out of it..(115 Posts)
Interesting TED Talk about this issue and how we see such violence as women's issues.
It's about 17 mins long BUT your attention will be grabbed within seconds.
What do we think?
It covers the whole matter much in the way as I see it.
Well I watched all of it, makes some good points although the comment about silence meaning consent will not go down well with feminists.
Anyway enough about feminists and their issues, personally I do have one issue he assumes all men are confident and leaders.
Personally I feel that the best way to deal with male violence would be to start with the young, violence will never disappear it is as much a part of us as say empathy is obviously it will vary between people. We can start by giving boys constructive outlets for agression in a team building way backed up with motivational speeches by male role models.
Imagine someone like David Beckham said something similar to a bunch of 12year olds they would hang on his every word.
Agree massively about role models stepping in and that would be great.
I also read 'leaders' also as men being their own 'leaders' and doing what is right by example.
Outlet for aggression? I'm not sold on that idea to be honest.
Well after reading the thread about boys and rugby and many people on there saying how their sons were less aggressive generally or that it helped them somewhat I feel that an outlet can be beneficial as long as it is managed correctly.
oh sure you may be right, though I didn't see that thread.
I just query the idea that boys are more naturally aggressive than girls - I think if they are it's due to being socialised into it - it's 'expected'.
Younger I played A LOT of footie up to representative 'county' level. I loved it and never saw it as an outlet.
OTOH....by sister played hockey. It was carnage.
Well I just watched that. He is correct. Violence against women is a men's issue.
I know he concentrated on violence against women by men. But there is another issue, largely swept under the carpet. And that issue is violence against men by women. Why? Coz men won't acknowledge it. It's not "manly" to admit that a man has been beaten by a woman.
And in both instances, where does it start? Why does or can become a woman brasher? It can start out as friendly physical play between the two. But then it gets out of hand. What starts out friendly finishes up violent. What was it my mum and dad use to say? "Keep your hands to yourself".
Husbandplus3 - What you seem to be saying is 'yes, violence against women is bad, but let's forget about that for a bit and talk about women abusing me.' It's a bit like going to the scene of a famine and telling the staving masses how bad you have it because your hotel minibar was badly stocked. In a thread with a title that starts "Violence against women" it's probably best to stick to violence against women.
And as for your belief that physical abuse is physical play that gets out of hand...
...good grief! Please find out more about such a sensitive subject before you post such truly idiotic statements again.
Fuckin' hell Tiggy. Make sure you don't take any prisoners will you!
I'd think eviscerating someone's offering isn't really the way to go as a rhetoritician is it? . You'll be accused as being a radfem at that rate..
Husbandplus3 - yes the OP was about male violence as a thing that fades out the perpetrators in practice, largely, and it really isn't good enough to say it's a womans issue with support of 'nice men' here and there. So we'd agree it's a male thing, NOT a female thing.
and yes the notion of it being play fights that go too far does come across as not really able to explain how come so many women die at the hands of their male partners, or ex-partners. There's something more difficult and 'systematic' at play there, and the video wasn't offering a perspective on female violence (which happens) rather it asks 'what is it that men can do to recognise their problem'.
There is another TED Talk on how that violence affects us as men, but I can't find it right now. I'm offering those as 1. they say stuff much more eloquently than me and 2. it saves typing stuff.
Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.
Now go back to this thread and discover what they think.
Husbandplus3, I think Tiggy is trying to make the point that SO MANY issues / threads like this are quickly hijacked by men saying something along the lines of 'but what about the menz?'
It does tend to get women's backs up, perhaps you should think on
Why does or can become a woman brasher? It can start out as friendly physical play between the two. But then it gets out of hand. What starts out friendly finishes up violent. What was it my mum and dad use to say? "Keep your hands to yourself".
That's definitely the most likely reason...nothing to do with men having issues with control and then beating the shit out of their wives becase they haven't got their ways..like big spoiled toddlers.
How come "woman bashers" are usually "child bashers" too? Is that because they were rough housing with a baby and took it too far?
Women don't tend to play fight with men who turn it in to beating them.
I think a large part of what he's proposing a man does really depends on the company you keep. Obviously his job brings him into contact with men like that, I personally don't and am a complete softie. I choose my friends carefully. I don't hang out with racist / sexist gits or the kind of blokes who think slapping their partners is acceptable. If I did I'd challenge them, but I don't. I don't go to poker nights or sports events etc.
I'm also not a leader in the way he described ( football coach etc ) , so other than challenging the extremely rare ( for me ) random derogatory comment I might hear from a stranger ( after assessing if they're likely to kick my head in or not ) , I'm personally not sure what I can do in the way he's proposing.
I did step into a situation once where a guy was hitting a woman in a club which was obviously the right thing to do, but I then got my head kicked in by him as I'm not at all experienced in hitting people. In the famous words of Michael Jackson , I'm a lover not a fighter.. Not of small children obviously.
I agree with what he's saying, that these attitudes should be challenged ( as should racism etc ) , and i'd like to think myself and my close friends would do this anyways, already, but I think it probably has limited scope in terms of the root causes of violence, especially in the home which is where the vast majority of it goes on. Behind closed doors.
Personally I think it'd be more productive if the genders joined against violence per say rather than making it about violence towards one gender which seems to what he's saying overall.
Hi by the way. :-)
Ok, so my one of my posts got deleted. I'll get over it.. However, Mumsnet, if your going to do so, please do me the curtesy of writing to me and telling me what I said that was against the rules. As far as I can remember, I did not attack any one personally. All I did was to answer Miss Tiggy, who doesn't appear to like me. Like I said, I'll get over it. Really, I will.
I made a point, quite valid, regarding the video. I stand by that point. Violence goes both ways. Men against women and women against men. Both should be condemned. This person has honed in on men. He made valid points. But balance please.
Oh, and I don't get in here very often. Unlike some, I have a life to live. I get on for a few minutes late in the evening.
Thanks for posting this Pan, very interesting, and i think, very true.
Backonthefence i missed the bit about "silence meaning consent", so i'll listen again later and try to pick up on that.
However, and this is just my take, i didn't think he was assuming that "all men are confident and leaders", but that anyone in leadership roles have a greater responsibility to engage with these issues.
Putting aside the debate about boys/girls and aggression (i feel that in this case this is a separate issue, but i tend to agree with Pan here), i think that you are in fact in broad agreement with Katz: he is advocating that leadership and education must come from authority figures; in your example, Beckham is an authority figure and able to communicate to an engaged audience the absolute unacceptability of sexism and abuse.
husbandplus3 i don't think that any thing is being "swept under the carpet", but as Tiggy says, Katz' focus here is on violence toward women and the knock on effects to children caught up in this abusive cycle. As for "friendly physical play" that gets out of hand, i think you need to spend some time on the relationships board (lurking not posting!) to get some perspective and see how often this is true (like never)
Husband - a deleted post in dadsnet is a rare event indeed.
I'd put the video here as it was relevant for us chaps IF there were an improvement it will come from us. tbh I wasn't pursuing 'balance', just an interesting take on one aspect of violence. I don't mind consideration of female violence, but that wasn't what was being questioned here.
Miss Tiggy? Tiggy I know as a testosterone driven hunk, and as rough as a bear's arse. Your confusing him with someone else.
Paleodad I don't know about the UK, but here in Oz, many years ago, rough play was a known starting point to violence, particularly toward women. As I said, what started out as friendly rough housing turned ugly, when one hit a bit harder than intended. That's not excusing men, coz its not. Violence is violence is violence is violence and should never be condoned. Studies apparently also suggest that people can become accepting of the violence and eventually believe they deserve what they get. Which you and I both known is utter crap.
At one time here we were taught about the dangers of rough play.
Oh and while I am in this thread, my apologies to TiggyD. Your comments led me to the conclusion I made. I guess my assumption made an ass out of me! I did judge the book by its cover.
Firstly, I don't hate you.
Secondly, I didn't report your post so it got deleted. That can be done by anyone. (And can be a bit annoying sometimes.)
Thirdly, I'm not upset if somebody mistakes me for a woman, however, Miss Tiggy makes me sound like the pig from the Muppets.
Fourthly, my intentions were to give you advice on what to avoid saying so you don't piss off all the women on here and get thought of as a sexist ninny.
Fifthly, I think you really need to back to the thread you were mansplaining in after your first ever post on this site. (Link above).
i can honestly say that i have never heard of "rough play" being a starting point to violence, and to be perfectly honest it sounds like the kind of excuse an abuser/MRA might use (not that i'm accusing you of being either of course). I would also say it is both patronising toward, and belittles the experiences of, abused people of either sex.
not accusing either tiggyd or h+3 of being an MRA ect. promise
Good thread Pan
I'm a woman who's been the victim of DV, and grew up in a household where my father hit my mother. Rough play didn't ever come into it.
Hmmm if you don't know someone's marital status the correct title is Ms. Or if they ask for you to call them Ms, then it's also Ms.
It isn't Miss.
Assuming someone is a woman purely because they aren't behaving in a knobish sexist way says you don't think much of your sex.
However as we aren't so formal as to use real (or imagined) titles on MN should I assume actually miss was meant as an insult? Not just a woman..but a young unmarried woman?
Partridge - have you mis-threaded at all?
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