Question about ESA and Job Centre Plus

[insanityscatching]

Ds1 is currently unwell and claiming ESA. He has had the medical assessment and been placed in the support group.He had the letter informing him of this on Thursday.
He has previously been seeing an advisor at the Job Centre voluntarily monthly. The last appointment was cancelled 10 minutes before the time he was due to attend (ds was outside as appointment time was 9am) and rearranged. Before that appointment was due he had a letter rearranging the appointment which is due on Tuesday next week. On Saturday he had another letter rearranging the work focused interview and informing him failure to attend will mean he could lose benefits.
Ds is ill and confused, he has no idea which appointments are being cancelled because none of the letters refer to which appointment is being rearranged and the letter on Thursday said that being in the support group he didn't have to attend work focused interviews anyway.
Is this typical? Ds is going to take all the letters on Tuesday and ask them to clarify which appointments he should be attending and which have now been cancelled and whether or not they are voluntary and if being in the support group he has to attend anyway.
It's the first time ds has been out of work since he left school 9 years ago, he is genuinely ill and he is finding the cancelling and rearranging incredibly stressful as it takes considerable effort for him to get himself there.
Any advice would be welcome.

[Becca19962014]

Yes this is typical.

Despite not needing to attend work related interviews in support group, in my experience at least, I had letters saying if I didn't go I would be sanctioned. Even when contacted and told i was in support group by my support worker I was told to go or lose money - I'm a member of a disability forum where people in support group have been unfairly sanctioned for not going to work interviews despite not needing to and forced to appeal.

The ONLY appointment he needs to attend is a medical to remain in support group. Attending anything else, even voluntarily can trigger reassessment and a person put into work group or onto JSA because they have been going voluntarily - this happened to me after I lost my support worker (due to service cuts) and had no choice but to ask the jobcentre for help with benefits as there is now no help at all for people claiming without family or friends to help which is my position.

He should go and say he is in support group and too ill to do any work related work activity showing the letter confirming support group. That should be an end to it, no idea if it will be or not though.

[PausingFlatly]

If he has a verbal discussion with them on Tuesday, he should ask insist on something from them in writing stating what it is they have advised him.

Failing that (or in addition to it) he should write to them after the meeting saying, "This is to confirm that in our discussion on Tuesday, [named person] stated the following."

Also, if they say anything he thinks is inaccurate (eg that he needs to attend a Work-Focussed Interview), he should add a phrase about "because I wish to be clear about your statements for when I discuss this with my MP".

And having laid the paper trail, be prepared to follow up on that and take it to an MP.

I know it will be physically and psychologically hard for him to do all that.

It absolutely sucks that, when you're too ill for even your normal day-to-day work, you find yourself having to work at Kafka-esque admin games of the sort normally associated with the worst utility companies. Such is the JobCentre.

[insanityscatching]

Thank you for the replies, it's a shoddy way to treat people who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in need of help. It would help if the letters they sent referred to the appointment that is being rearranged but it's just a new appointment with rearranged scrawled across the top. Because each new appointment is with someone else he has no idea whether they are all for the same interview or not. I'll give him your advice.

[tiggerworld]

I've been on ESA in the support group for eight years and never had to go to a WFI. I did once get called to one when I was first put on it, but I queried it with my CAB and they cleared it up with the DWP and I didn't have to go in the end. I've never been to see any advisor at the Jobcentre, just gone for the odd assessment.

[Becca19962014]

I hope his meeting went well today.

[insanityscatching]

Thank you for asking, he went with his four letters and his letter telling him he was in the support group. He explained that multiple letters cancelling appointments not referred to and giving new appointments was very stressful at a time when he was already ill and stressed.
The advisor said although the letters sent out don't mention that they are voluntary and refer to them being work focused interviews and warning of sanctions because he is in the support group they are in fact voluntary they just don't have a letter for that
Ds said in that case she could cancel the next two appointments as he wouldn't be attending and anymore sent whilst he was in the support group he would cancel the day before unless he felt up to attending.
He had to wait an hour as they were "running late" even though his appointment was 9.10am (how can you be running an hour late when you have only been open ten minutes?
With your advice though he felt better able to cope and less cowed and worried by them so thank you

[Becca19962014]

they just don't have a letter for that

Of course not. Like when I was first on ESA and the first payment into my account was JSA and I was told it didn't matter as it was the same amount (it wasn't) and from the same computer I was also told that as I had a degree I shouldn't be in support group but in work anyway (they knew about the degree from a JSA claim many many years ago) I really wish it was true that degrees prevented my disability though

It really is set up to be as complicated and difficult as possible [anger] I asked my MP why once and was told it was to stop the fraudsters, he didn't get at all it actually was much harder for those who were ill who were likely not to claim or be sanctioned due to additional stress.

He'd be much better concentrating on getting better and not going to any of the appointments - the support for finding work will be there when he gets better (assuming he is in that position).

The running late just meant they were late into work.

[insanityscatching]

He's not intending to attend any of the voluntary appointments now tbh but thought it sounded inflammatory than telling them not to bother sending more out.
What makes me really annoyed is that currently ds has a severe chest infection on top of the severe asthma and so is struggling to breathe. This has nothing to do with the reason he is signed off but makes it even more difficult as the job centre is a distance away. So he struggled to a needless appointment, had to hang about for an hour when he is signed off just because they don't have a letter saying it is voluntary Can't imagine any of the JC employees would have turned up if they were struggling to breathe though can you?

[PausingFlatly]

Phew.

OK, now it may be helpful for him/you to write a letter saying exactly what you've said above, stating the clerk's explicit advice. He should keep a copy (photograph?) and if possible send it signed for (though I appreciate the trip to the PO to do that may be hard).

Does he actually get anything at all out of going to the JobCentre? Unless they're doing something he finds hugely helpful and can't get elsewhere, I'd agree with Becca he's better sacking them off completely. Allowing them to make appointments will lead to more of the same and possible sanctions every time they fuck up, as happened in Becca's forum.

Agree, "running late" either means they were late into work or they tell a dozen people to turn up at 9 am and plan to just let them sit there. ATOS used to do both for the medical interviews.

[PausingFlatly]

x-post.

In that case, state in his letter that he will not be attending any further interviews, and they are not to send any more appointments.

For the love of god, don't give them the opportunity to claim that he agreed to do something voluntarily and then failed to turn up. If tries to phone and cancel appts there will be no evidence he cancelled, and IME they never answer the phone anyway.

Sorry to hear about the chest infection. Posting his letter can wait a bit.

[Becca19962014]

It isn't inflammatory saying don't send any more letters, in fact it is totally reasonable.

I agree with pausing that he needs to look at what he is getting from these appointments and unless they are really useful he should write and say he won't be attending anymore as too ill (evidenced by being in the support group).

[insanityscatching]

Right I think what I'll do is write him a letter (in his name obviously) confirming what the clerk says and then state that if and when he feels well enough to attend the JC he will ring to make an appointment. Hopefully that will sort everything out.
The appointments are a complete waste of time tbh,he waits on average 40 minutes they ask if he's any better and then send him on his way.You would think that the GP who signs his sick note would be a better person to ask really as don't think JC advisors have any medical training.

[Becca19962014]

Actually reading pausings x-post that is far more reasonable advice. Not going at all will remove any possibility of sanction.

[PausingFlatly]

Can I suggest a tweak to the language?

"If my condition changes and if I feel there is anything useful the JobCentre is offering, then I will get in touch."

It's pernicketty, but I'd be uncomfortable positing going to the JobCentre as in any way a norm that he should conform to whenever he's not actually too ill to leave the house.

From what you say, they have nothing even remotely useful to offer him. He's much better off putting his focus elsewhere (getting better, honing skill or hobby).

[insanityscatching]

Will use that wording Flatly, I'm just a bit peeved with them today as he really wasn't well enough to leave the house today. GP wanted him in hospital because of his chest on Monday he could still end up there tomorrow for IV antibiotics and nebulisers if there is no improvement.

[PausingFlatly]

Hope he improves soon.