TTC Super Ovulation part 3

(978 Posts)
Arianrhod Mon 08-Oct-12 08:30:07

Hey ladies -

There are a few of us who are ttc after mc's, however there will be ladies out there who are also ttc for the first time or second or third without success. If anyone is on, considering or had success on a super ovulation programme then do join us. How long did it take ? Did you try IUI with it.. ? Did you have PCOS?

Kicking this off and hoping some of you will join....

part 1 here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1385998-TTC-Super-Ovulation

Part 2 here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1475108-TTC-Super-Ovulation-part-2?pg=1

Arianrhod Mon 08-Oct-12 08:31:19

Hope everyone finds this smile

Arianrhod Mon 08-Oct-12 09:07:26

Apologies if anyone got a PM twice from me with the new thread, and equally if you didn't get one - my PM system threw a bit of a wobbly and was refusing to give me a 'send' button some of the time!

Technology ... sigh ... remind me again why I work in IT? smile

duggs1976 Mon 08-Oct-12 09:54:11

marking my place.. thanks Ari

mollieboo Mon 08-Oct-12 12:57:30

Thanks ari just saying I've found the thread. I got one email so it worked ok! Hope you're doing ok.

Hello to everyone else too x

Pebbles73 Mon 08-Oct-12 14:47:33

Hi all and thanks for starting the new thread Ari.

Hope everyone is ok on this miserable Monday!

Mel3062 Mon 08-Oct-12 16:33:10

Thanks ari, well I need gonal f 75 for day 2-7 then a scan. She said shed fax the script over as its cheaper but not sure who too or what it will cost!! Yikes. Back to opk for me this month and then guess pred!! Would it hurt to take it if not yet ovulated?? X

BellyD Mon 08-Oct-12 17:35:09

Just marking my place. Thanks for starting the new thread Ari.

Arianrhod Mon 08-Oct-12 17:47:31

mel They fax it to Central Homecare who will then ring you to arrange delivery. They charge £90 if you're just getting gonal-f, £110 if you're getting Ovitrelle as well. And did they say you have to inject days 2 to 7? Interesting - I do mine days 2, 4, 6 and 8 but with Letrozole days 2 to 6 as well. Are you going to just be on gonal-f on its own?

Mel3062 Mon 08-Oct-12 18:05:04

Thanks Hun yes their was no Letrozole as well mentioned. What is the difference between the two? Why are you on both? X

lemonsherbet Mon 08-Oct-12 22:00:40

Thanks Ari

How is everyone today

holldoll Tue 09-Oct-12 07:33:40

Isaw mr s yesterday and he's definitely lost weight! I'm now on the super ovulation programme. He's also ordered some bloods. Sorry to hear both Ari and Mollies news. Fingers crossed this works
Ari thanks for starting the new thread.

Arianrhod Tue 09-Oct-12 09:25:38

mel I'm on both because ... erm ... Mr S told me to? smile No, it was because although I did respond on Letrozole alone it varied from month to month; one month I got two good sized follies, the next just one. They're both ovarian stimulants but they work in different ways. On the Letrozole alone only my left ovary produced any eggs, the right nothing. On the combination of Letrozole and gonal-f both ovaries produce eggs. Mr S will put you on whichever combination of medication he believes will get the best response out of your body. Remember it takes a few cycles to get the best adjustment of medication for you, hence why they say they get the most pregnancies out of cycles 5-6 - by then, they should have worked out what combination gets the best response.

holl Welcome to SO smile

Mel3062 Tue 09-Oct-12 18:16:09

Thanks ari x

Pebbles73 Tue 09-Oct-12 21:48:02

Hi Holl wishing you lots of luck with the super ov programme and welcome to the thread.

How are you doing Ari? I bet you have been in research mode, hope you have found some useful info and are feeling ok.

How are you feeling Duggs, are you planning to see out your six months of super ov or do you think you will go for more ivf? Can't believe I only have one more round of super ov and then it's big pay out for ivf..,,.

Has gone v quiet on here over the last few days.

Waves to everyone else.

duggs1976 Tue 09-Oct-12 22:51:44

Hey guys... pebbles I'm going for my 4th or 2nd ( depending on if u discount pre infections back in feb time or not SO round. Last month was tough not sure i can handle another failed IVF or FET cycle so soon. Didn't realise just how much a failed FET would hurt. It's just as bad somehow. Anyway off for my mid cycle scan on Friday at NLC. How r others? Looking forward to our meet up in a few weeks. smile

holldoll Wed 10-Oct-12 06:48:27

Thank you for the welcomes, I'm going to be on a little break before I start - partner away.
Sorry duggs - Its so frustrating when these things fail. Fingers crossed for this SO cycle.
Has Mr S done amh's on you? He has requested this for me plus some basics not done before.
How have you all found taking the letrozole? I tried clomid last month and I did not like the side effects.
Fingers crossed for all x x

Mel3062 Wed 10-Oct-12 07:08:18

Hi all
welcome holl. Letrozole was fine Hun no side effects! Except I get spots?!
Im getting a line on my opk so hoping I've not ovulated yet and those follies have grown!! I need to see mr s for my next scan which I hope is in half term!! Gonal f is on its way.
Duggs I'm so gutted for you xx

Arianrhod Wed 10-Oct-12 11:47:36

Hi ladies

duggs I think any IVF failure is so very hard, considering you're doing the majority of Nature's work for her, you feel that all your body has to do is get the egg to implant and if it doesn't, it's almost like a double blow. Let's hope that SO has the answer for you finally. Good luck with the scan on Friday - are you on just Letrozole, I forget?

pebbles Don't forget what happened with abney - she did 6 rounds of SO, nothing doing, then her first TTC after being off SO she got happily pregnant. The body works in mysterious ways!

holl Letrozole had very little effect on me, other than making me get days of spotting long after AF ended and I think IIRC it makes me a bit hot at night, but that's about it, no real problems.

Me ... well still very deflated by the whole thing and still wondering where we go from here, if anywhere. OH says to wait and see what Mr S says ... but I got an email yesterday from Cheryl saying Mr S has had a quick look at my results and says there is a "slight problem" but will discuss in detail when I see him. A "slight problem"? I think he's completely discounting the LAD results, and just looking at the DQa match. I'd have said even that, with a 50% chance that any embryo we produce is identical to me, is a bit more than a "slight" problem, but maybe I'm just thick.

I've pretty much decided LIT is out of the question - I know it's a heck of a lot cheaper to have them done in Athens (something like £400 compared to £1500 here) but I don't know if I can face all the hassle, let alone the cost (by the time you've added in air fares, etc). And I don't think OH is keen on throwing yet more money at something that may or may not help anyway.

Mind you .. I've had a doh! moment this week. If anyone else is also taking agnus castus (as I have been for the past year), I just discovered that it counterreacts with Letrozole, gonal-f, and anything else that attempts to raise your FSH/oestrogen etc. Agnus castus works to balance your hormones, reduce FSH and oestrogen, promote progesterone etc. You can see where I'm coming from here already, can't you? Fantastic for sorting out your cycle and hormones, but if you're trying to increase certain hormones (as do Letrozole and gonal-f) it's quite probably the last thing you need! So I've stopped taking it for the moment, bit of a pain if it isn't having a detrimental effect on the Letrozole etc as it takes 3 months to build up in your system.

And incidentally I'm exploring soy isoflavones, which is supposedly a natural version of clomid but without the side effects. I may try it out for a couple of cycles once I'm no longer on SO, it certainly can't make things any worse, since it seems to do much the same thing as Letrozole. Can't take Agnus Castus with that either, obviously!

/waves to everyone

Pebbles73 Wed 10-Oct-12 13:38:41

Understand exactly how you feel Duggs re the ivf. You go through all the drug taking and injecting, feeling like crap with migraines during down regulation. The long journeys to the clinic for all the scans etc before work and is gutting when it is all for nothing. I remember thinking thank god after my first round resulted in a positive that it hadn't been for nothing only for it to turn into a chemical. Sending you a big hug and make sure you indulge in some vino!!

Holl generally letrezole was fine but one month had horrendous headaches that nothing would shift and some night sweats.

Ari you certainly have a lot to take on board but wait and see what Mr S says about it all. Have been thinking of you and hope you are indulging in anything that makes you feel better.

Interesting about the Angus cactus, has made me wonder if taking the starflower caused my bad follie result this month as previously have always had at least three and have over stimulated if anything. How annoying that I may have caused it to happen, think I will stop taking it!!

duggs1976 Sun 14-Oct-12 14:16:43

hey ladies.. this thread dropped off my watch list for some reason.
How is everyone ?

I had my 5th SO scan on Friday at NLC and only had one follicle.. not sure why...again like u pebbles started taking starflower oil this cycle doesn't seem to mix well perhaps?

Dr S said he'd put me onto 7.5mg letrozole for my 6th cycle in November.
I havn't bothered to update him on anything as I just need him for SO for now.

Big sigh.. oh well... whatever.

Who is left on this thread still ttc on SO programme ?

LJ71 Sun 14-Oct-12 15:51:06

Hi - I dropped off the thread too, there was clearly a blip as lots of us have not posted for a few days.

I have done one round of SO, conceived and mc'd. We are trying naturally for 2-3 months before we go back on it - largely down to financial reasons, but also trying to minimise visits to the clinic as it's so hard to come up with excuses to keep disappearing from work. xx

lemonsherbet Mon 15-Oct-12 06:50:33

I am also still here. Tend to not post much because feel everyone else other than a few seem to start Mr S programme and then it is BFP. Whereas I am no further on than I was over a year ago. Anyway my DH says in Nov if no luck we can go and see Mr G. I suspect that I will be like duggs and ari and must have something else wrong so am not wasting more money having some time out of doing SO till get to see MrG to see if that gives us answers.

duggs1976 Mon 15-Oct-12 08:18:15

Am hearing you loud and clear lemon think the ethical thing would be a warning - you'll be pregnant within 6 month if not probably worth getting checked for further tests - he just happily takes our £ each month. Hoping it doesn't come to that but moving forward with answers is better than hitting your head against the wall each month...

duggs1976 Mon 15-Oct-12 08:21:39

ari forgot to say I discovered soy isoflavones before all this dr s cr*p and am sure it was really helpful in regulating cycles. I only have one more SO cycle after this one so might have to research them again. . Def worth a shot if not on SO..

Arianrhod Mon 15-Oct-12 08:38:43

Hi ladies .. yes, still here, although not doing much this cycle due to MC.

duggs Sorry to hear about your scan but do remember that it only takes one follie, right?

lemon I'm hearing you - how many SO cycles have you done so far? I know they say most ladies that are going to, get pregnant on cycles 5-6 of SO but as you say, there may be other factors at work.

LJ Can't you just say you have a medical appt? That's what I do - you aren't obliged to go into details smile

duggs Well I took the soy isoflavones day 3-7 (now day 9) and I don't know about anything else but it's the first time in weeks I have slept like a log (most people seem to take them at night). I have had definite twinges in the ovary areas, don't know if that's coincidence but I don't usually at this time of the month, so I don't know if it's doing anything or not. TBH the only reason I took them now is that I seem to have delayed ov the cycle following any kind of miscarriage (from the usual CD14 to CD18), whether 'chemical' or otherwise, and I wanted to see if SI would do anything about that. I'm back to tracking ov via my Clearblue monitor, so I'll see what happens. Plus OH is away for a week from CD14 this month, so if SI doesn't bring my ov back to normal then this is a wasted cycle anyway.

Seeing Mr S on Wednesday afternoon for 'post-MC' consultation (and results from LAD/DQa blood tests, which I already have of course), not that I'm expecting anything new out of that, and then presumably my last SO cycle. Not expecting anything out of that either, to be frank. OH wants me to ask Mr S if there's any point us carrying on TTC, with so much against us. I'm half expecting the IVF speech again.

/waves to everyone

Pebbles73 Mon 15-Oct-12 13:30:44

I wondered where everybody had gone!!

Duggs it must be the statflower oil then as you always responded well previously if I remember rightly? Am annoyed with myself for taking it now and virtually wasting a month of super ov!

LJ I wish you lots of luck trying naturally and hope it happens for you.

Understand how you feel Lemon have been seeing Mr S since January and all that has happened is one chemical after ivf. I am different to the rest if you anyway as never had a natural bfp so if not pregnant this cycle or the next which is the last super ov will be back to ivf for me.

Pebbles73 Mon 15-Oct-12 13:37:41

Whoops didn't refresh the page before posting and missed your post Ari!
Hope your cycle returns to normal quickly and let us know how you get on with Mr S.

duggs1976 Mon 15-Oct-12 17:47:23

I'm with you pebbles this is SO round 5?ive just ovulated on if it doesn't work with my one follie it is 7.5mg for my last SO attempt ! If that fails then a few natural cycles as we will be in sydney for xmas and ny before second IVF round which I'm not looking forward to! Where r u now pebbles in cycle?

Pebbles73 Mon 15-Oct-12 17:56:41

I am 13 days post trigger shot and due to test Thursday. I am also on 7.5mg next month if this is a negative, have to say feel totally unpregnant!

Will be good for you to have a break before the ivf and have a drug free couple if months. Will be doing something similar as if super ov doesn't work we might be off to Thailand for Xmas. Are you going to ARGC next time?

duggs1976 Mon 15-Oct-12 18:09:17

Have pm'ed you!

lemonsherbet Mon 15-Oct-12 21:39:04

Ari just remind me did you see MrG or are you going to see him. I would be very interested to see what MrS says with regards to the results that you have. To be fair, I suspect it is the pred that stops me getting pregnant but with one of the highest NK count I do not feel that I can stop it so end up in a catch 22. I either stop the pred and have a chemical or take the pred and don't get pregnant. It is quite funny when you think about it.

Anyway good luck for Wednesday.

duggs if you are going to CARE is this for more IVF or is it for immune issues. I am not very familiar with them but know a lot of people going through IVF use them

pebbles so sorry about your chemical after IVF it must be heartbreaking. I keep telling myself that we will all eventually get there.

Sorry if my message sounded down this morning I am just waiting for AF to rear her head. Keep doing POAS and of course I know it is a BFN but think it may change--I must do something about my POAS addiction--

Mel3062 Tue 16-Oct-12 03:44:37

Yey hello ladies!! Missed you all.
Well after an awful month 5 I'm confused!! Just to remind you all I had scan day 11 just 2 small follies on one side, scan day 15 showed 8 small 4 on each biggest only being 9 mm. Told not to ovitrelle but do opks then steroids. Started opks and thought I got positive tues day 19 but continued with opks and keep getting a line :/ Sundays looked positive too day 24?! So continued to bed and took steroids from Sunday but of course af normally comes day 28 which is fri and now I'm to pot with steroids and haven't tested early as I've only had 3 days worth!! Don't know what to think. Hope follies have grown and ovulation just later. I have had a cycle of 32 last month. Argh!! Poor hubby is knackered!! Would steroids delay af? Should I just continue and see if af comes? Next cycle is clexane and back to mr s for scan which should be half term if he's not away?!
Waving and hugging you all. Confused. Com!! X
Oh and it's 3.44... Steroids!!!!

Mel3062 Tue 16-Oct-12 03:46:01

I ment gonal f not clexane!

Arianrhod Tue 16-Oct-12 11:57:30

lemon No I didn't go to see Dr G in the end, I just requested the blood tests I wanted doing from Mr S and he agreed to request them. Problem comes of course if something comes out of these tests that Mr S doesn't believe in - as with the LAD test - as you then can't get treated for it via Mr S.

I empathise with you totally on the steroid front, since I also believe steroids bugger around with my fertility. OH and I were discussing this the other day, we had more 'success' with getting/being pregnant before we started seeing Mr S - irony isn't in it! The problem is exactly as you say - a pregnancy without steroids is doomed for us anyway, but what when the steroids stop you being successfully pregnant in the first place? Catch 22, as you say. I honestly don't know what the answer is.

mel Steroids can indeed mess around with your cycles, but I can't say if that's what is happening with you. Hope the gonal-f does the trick for you!

pebbles crossing fingers for your Thursday testing smile

duggs and pebbles I must say I love the sound of your two's Christmas plans, how exciting! smile

Pebbles73 Tue 16-Oct-12 13:42:42

Lemon I think we are guilty of poas addiction! Although having said that I am waiting until official test day this month after confusing myself with a Ssinsburys digi one last month! I really hope your bfn changes, when is your official testing date as such?
Since your treatment with Mr S have you miscarried or not been pregnant at all?

Mel not surprised you are confused, I guess you will just have to wait and see if af comes....

Must be such a nightmare for those of you who got pregnant easily before the steroids, as it had always been difficult for me anyway not sure it makes any difference!

Ari just couldn't face another Xmas still not being pregnant or having a family of our own and doing the same thing....

Arianrhod Tue 16-Oct-12 13:55:05

pebbles Understand that! Have you thought of getting further testing, out of interest? In case there's something else that's preventing you getting pregnant?

Pebbles73 Tue 16-Oct-12 14:20:03

If the super ov doesn't work then I think I will ask Mr S to test for the things you had done before we pay out for ivf. I would then like to go to ARGC and maybe have the ivf there but will have to work out costs....

Mel3062 Tue 16-Oct-12 17:32:00

Thanks ladies ill wait it out and keep on steroids x still got a line tonight that's over a week now!

Mel3062 Tue 16-Oct-12 17:32:31

Pebbles we surely deserve it now!!

lemonsherbet Tue 16-Oct-12 20:42:57

pebbles to be honest I have no idea-according to ovulation sticks and CB monitor I have not ovulated this month. AF would be due Thurs/Friday if it follows its usual course. However, I have had lots of family issues the past month so it would not of surprised me if I ovulate at a different point to usual.

Ari I am surprised that Mr S agreed to do the tests, since he does not believe other things like hidden infection. I wonder if he is opening up to other immune problems being the cause of miscarriages. I imagine that even if your DH asks if their is any point continuing he will say yes.

duggs How are today?

Mel just to put this out there. I am now wearing my POAS addict badge. The OPK can act has a form of pregnancy test. Do you think the second positive if it persists could be a BFP? Sorry if I am giving false hope but you could be 7-8dpo and just saying it could be that.

LJ I am sorry about your work. That is one of the similar reasons we struggle with the SO. My work are so nosey that you can not just sneak off and come back. Added to the fact that I am not local to Mr S means taking a whole day off to see him makes life difficult.

Nothing new really to report here. Just thought I would say hi

Arianrhod Tue 16-Oct-12 20:55:17

lemon Ah, Mr S didn't order the hidden infections tests, I did that off my own back through the Serum clinic in Athens. I did tell Mr S I was doing it and did send him a copy of the results when I got them, but he did say he thought them not worth doing. The test he ordered for me at my request was for LAD and DQa, as well as karyotyping. He seems very dismissive of the LAD results which in my case are so very low as to be non-existent (this is bad), which is less than helpful.

Mel3062 Wed 17-Oct-12 06:00:57

I did hear of that but trying to be good and wait and not get hopes up ESP as it was not a good response. I've had cm still and during the night had tummy pains so who knows what's going on it seems just so late for ovulation day 27 today!! Oh we'll wel see and in meantime keep up the bd but hubby needed night off yesterday so hope mon and tonight is enough. Louise forgot to fax my gonal f! Mr s is free over half term for scan yey!
Good luck pebbles for tomorrow and everyone else who's having such a hard time of it all.
Thanks for being so helpful ladies xx

Pebbles73 Wed 17-Oct-12 13:22:32

If I was you Mel I would do a pregnancy test as seems rather late to be ovulating. Not trying to get your hopes up but might be worth checking..,,,

Must be tricky for you ladies who find it hard to get out of work. After my miscarruage last Octobet I told my manager about th treatment and stuff and she is really great about it.

Not holding out much hope for testing tomorrow, have had to wee a lot last few days but must be the pred or prob just imagining it! smile

Arianrhod Wed 17-Oct-12 14:37:54

Don't think extra weeing is a side effect of Pred, is it pebbles?? Soooooo ... smile Well crossing fingers for you for tomorrow anyway smile

Sat here at NLC feeling like I rather live here these days, I seem to be here so often. Wondering just why I am actually having this appt, since I know my test results and Mr S can hardly say anything enlightening about yet another CP. Rather thinking I'm wasting yet more money, ho hum.

Arianrhod Wed 17-Oct-12 16:33:45

Well, I take it all back, it was definitely worth seeing Mr S. And it's just reminded me again why I stick with Mr S.

He actually really surprised me. He said he'd discussed my LAD results with someone he works with and respects, Dr Nick Tsagiris in Athens (I know of him, quite a lot of ladies on FF go to him for LIT treatment), and would be happy to arrange LIT treatment with Dr Tsagiris if we felt we wanted it! Mr S doesn't believe it has that much of an effect himself (and he did say he hoped I didn't mind him discussing me with Dr Tsagiris - as if I'd mind getting another expert's opinion!) and Dr Tsagiris did say they have mixed results, LIT doesn't always make a difference, but Mr S is quite happy to arrange for this if we want it. And of course it's way cheaper getting it done in Athens. However, as I discussed with Mr S and as I already knew, because of the 100% DQa match between OH and me, paternal LIT almost certainly won't work (and Dr Tsagiris advised this too) - it would be a bit like trying to get your body to produce antibodies against yourself - so I would have to have donor LIT, and I'm really not comfortable doing that. I also asked the question of Mr S, if very low LAD levels were such an issue, would one of our babies have got to 9 weeks before dying, and his feeling is that it wouldn't.

But I was really surprised - very pleasantly so - that he was certainly prepared for me to have LIT treatment, and had in fact discussed it with someone who could do it for me.

He also spent quite a long time discussing things generally with me - NK cells and their likely effects (I had a few questions around this), whether it's worth us still carrying on, what we do next, etc etc - and seemed quite happy to talk things through. He said he really does feel it's worth us continuing (and I honestly don't believe this was anything to do with ££ here!), and that since SO is clearly working for me (this was my second pregnancy in 5 cycles) we should carry on for a few cycles more at least. He did suggest IVF again when I first started talking with him - not with DE, but my own - but he clarified this with it's not to help get me pregnant, since I appear to still be able to do that, but purely to be able to rule out chromosomal issues by only putting back eggs that are chromosomally ok. I explained IVF isn't ever going to be an option for us, financially, so at least we know that isn't something we're going to explore.

Anyway, won't bore you all with all our discussion but he did say he is very open to testing for things other than his 'standard' set of tests, he just doesn't want to waste people's money ordering all the tests under the sun just for the sake of it. I'm glad I asked him to do the extra tests, and if there were other tests that I felt worth doing I wouldn't hesitate to ask him to order them.

Not sure how OH will take the news that we're to carry on for a while longer, but I'll cross that bridge later!

Pebbles73 Wed 17-Oct-12 17:16:17

Just a quickie from me, just wanted to say I am so pleased that your appointment was so positive Ari and that Mr S thinks you are still in with a chance. So you will carry on with super ov and possibly have lit alongside or do you really not want to? You must be feeling much better about things?

Have had cramps all afternoon so think af is well and truly on the way for me so good luck to Lemon and Mel

Mel3062 Wed 17-Oct-12 17:47:58

Aw fab news ari more hope sometimes we can lose sight of how good he is when we just pay the bill!
Sorry to hear pebbles I had abit of tummy pain overnight sad
Not testing no no!!
Spoke to Louise gonal f comes tomorrow £135!!!! She said there was something new they were doing to help concieve quicker so that sounds interesting! X

FrankelSaysRelax Wed 17-Oct-12 18:08:17

Hello ladies, can I ask you a couple of questions?

I've just started ovulation induction treatment through Addenbrookes and am on Day 3 of daily Menopur injections. I wanted to ask, did those of you that have used the same injections, did you notice a quick increase in CM? This afternoon I've noticed a lot more CM than I'm used to and am paranoid that I might be over stimulating. My next scan is not until Monday and while I'm sure this is normal, it's my first cycle of treatment and I'm a control freak!

Also did you suffer any side effects? I've noticed I've been getting headaches over the last few days but am not sure if that is linked to the medication or more paranoia!

Arianrhod Wed 17-Oct-12 18:15:21

Hoping you're wrong about the cramps pebbles - I had major cramps the night before I tested this last time, but it wasn't AF. Still crossing fingers smile
Not going to do LIT, no, but will carry on with SO for a while.

mel Oh that sounds interesting - did she mention at all what else they might be doing? Mr S didn't mention anything to me today, it does sound interesting!

Hi Frankel - I'm afraid I can't help as I've never had Menopur, only Letrozole and Gonal-f. Maybe one of the other ladies might have experience with this.

Mel3062 Wed 17-Oct-12 18:15:31

My opk is a lot lighter tonight so must've been ovulation sad

Pebbles73 Wed 17-Oct-12 18:51:03

Sorry Frankel have also only had letrezole on the super ov.

Well suddenly couldn't wait a minute longer as home alone with a frer test and if course it was another bfn for me. I think that unfortunately the only thing that is going to work is forking out ££££££ for ivf.......

Sorry your test was lighter Mel but don't give up yet.

duggs1976 Wed 17-Oct-12 19:21:19

Ok frankie yes I had menopur in April and exactly as u described. ari so good news. just so i understand then is it dr s doesn't see DQ match as a show stopper because he doesn't believe in it or that it is an indication and there is a chance ? Is this causing your mc's then?
Sorry I didn't quite understand and am v interested!
And WHAT is this new quicker conception thing fekkin bring it on or I'm likely to gauge my eyes out with a pencil one of these days or heading for a divorce. sad pebbles r u doing gonal F ?

lemonsherbet Wed 17-Oct-12 19:34:58

Frankel welcome to the SO thread. I also do not know but a quick dr google search and it looks like it can cause chance to cm. I know I should not use dr google.

Ari am glad Mr S was so positive and open minded. I am glad it is good news.

Pebbles73 Wed 17-Oct-12 19:38:18

Yes also want to know about this quicker conception thing', need all the help I can bloody get!! Duggs I am just on letrezole and this last go will be on 7.5mg. Slightly concerned don't really need it it the starflower oil caused the problem last month and will end up with too many follies. Having said that will take the risk of multiple pregnancy over one follie any day.
Really cheesed off can't make the meet up next week, really don't want to work as not a nice place to be at the mo. sad

lemonsherbet Wed 17-Oct-12 20:10:18

Do we know where we are meeting? Can someone pm me

lemonsherbet Wed 17-Oct-12 20:11:17

PS is there some badge or identifying handshake that we are meant to do. Just worried am going to walk up to random people going are you pebbles

Mel3062 Thu 18-Oct-12 03:10:38

Wish the meet was week after in half term sad nevermind one day...
I'm seeing mr s week after next so ill keep you informed....
sad pebbles, what did the starflower do? I got too many small ones without taking that so I think it can just happen sometimes. I hate the bfn or af sign with such a passion it's all so hard sad
Hoping rainbows is ok too.
Sorry frankel I've just had Letrozole but start gonal f soon. It was funny as its getting delivered to work and my friend wanted to give me it I just had visions of laying on the staff room floor!! They all know my cycle better than me!!
Bloody 3.06 hubby's just left to work away tonight bloody steroids.
Aw duggs it's so hard isn't it sad
Xx

duggs1976 Thu 18-Oct-12 05:58:16

Oh am thinking about the meet up I'd rather meet up with ladies on here in similar boat as nice as it is to meet pred ladies it would be so nice if we could meet. . Pebbles and mel would u prefer to push it back perhaps?

Chasinrainbows Thu 18-Oct-12 07:13:34

Hi Mel , thanks for thinking of me. I'm ok so far . Had a scan on Monday and saw the heartbeat. I'd had some bleeding ( just pink) on the Sunday night so I was worried. Currently at 6+5 so still a few milestones to pass. Hope you are ok? Waves to everyone. Sorry I've not been around much. Work has been full on so it's been work then bed sad

Pebbles73 Thu 18-Oct-12 13:40:02

I would live to be able to meet with you Duggs is just hard to say a date at the mo as font know how many Saturdays will need to work. Shall we see what dated works for Mel and I will sim for that? So sorry to sound so vague.

Mel because I have pcos (as does Duggs) we tend to over stimulate if anything with this kind of treatment and gave shears had at least three good size follies. The only thing I changed this month was taking the starflower oil and ended up with one follie as did Duggs so am pretty sure it might be down to that.....
Hope you get some sleep tonight!!

Rainbows you must have been relieved to see a heartbeat! Hope all goes well for you.

Pebbles73 Thu 18-Oct-12 14:08:09

Sorry for all the mistakes, on the iPhone!

duggs1976 Thu 18-Oct-12 14:13:39

interesting thing here as I emailed Louise (she is the loveliest person I've encountered during this whole hiddeous 3 year nighmare) and she mentioned Dr S has a new test he is using TNF Alpha - (which isn't new to Dr G and Ndwke etc) so it seems some of the other tests are proving themselves slowly to dr S. Anyway, Pebbles have you thought about this if Dr S seems to be coming around testing this ?

Don't worry if you are working weekends, it is difficult to get everyone on a fixed date.

Mel3062 Thu 18-Oct-12 17:15:21

Awe rainbows how lovely keeping fingers crossed.
Please don't change arrangements for me I'm sure they'll be another but that's so kind. Shame I'm so far away.
Wow about the starflower!!
Duggs it must be the same test they'll be telling me?!
Work and bed sounds like my life!!
X

Mel3062 Thu 18-Oct-12 20:33:52

Well after niggles and backache and saying no more opk... I did and there's still a line bizarre!! Wish I knew how to post a pic!

Arianrhod Thu 18-Oct-12 21:37:57

Mr S mentioned to me yesterday that he's now starting to use the TNF-alpha test routinely for those who are having difficulties getting pregnant, rather than for those who are recurrent miscarriers. Maybe this might help?

Arianrhod Thu 18-Oct-12 21:39:09

Btw remember choccy had the TNF-alpha test with Mr S.

Arianrhod Thu 18-Oct-12 21:46:28

Whoops, missed your question duggs. No, it's not the DQa Mr S doesn't believe in, he does recognise that could cause problems. However it should just be a case of immune suppressant since it is the immune system that will try to kill off any DQa match. It's LIT treatment that Mr S isn't convinced makes a difference, but even so he was prepared to arrange it for me if we wanted to do that. I also spoke to him about taking Clexane from BFP and he's very happy to do that, he is prepared to throw everything at it .. assuming we ever stay pregnant long enough to warrant taking it, of course!

Mel3062 Thu 18-Oct-12 22:57:11

Posted pic on opk photo club babycentre if anyone can spare a look x

duggs1976 Fri 19-Oct-12 08:14:53

Mel just checking you know most opks always have a line it just has to be as strong or stronger than the control line! Clear blue have a smiley face when u ovulate so there is no doubt. Haven't seen photo as on iPhone but just thought I'd better mention as ovulation will be a surge that happens over 24 -36 hours then it is over and this is what we look for! Sorry if you know all this and you have a permanent strong line if so that would be a bit strange and confusing!?

duggs1976 Fri 19-Oct-12 08:16:58

Well that's good ari I'm sure if it was not worth it he'd say as it won't look good on his statistics and would be un ethical. What a roller coaster!

Pebbles73 Fri 19-Oct-12 13:30:44

That sounds like something I need testing for seeing as it is so difficult for me to get pregnant. I never thought life would be shitty enough for me to take years getting pregnant only to then miscarry or be a chemical pregnancy. Ahhhh!!!
Currently waiting on af which seems to be delayed this month, must be cyclogest I took this month delaying it.
Was feeling really down yesterday say oh has booked a nice meal this evening and we are going for a few drinks first.

What cycle day are you on now Mel?

lemonsherbet Fri 19-Oct-12 18:31:37

Feeling a bit low, I got a BFP a couple of days ago and was feeling good yesterday-had the sore breasts and nausea. Today loss of pregnancy symptoms and getting period like cramps. Am still testing positive and no bleeding yet. Have a bad cold at the moment and part of me wonders if that triggered my immune system to be more active and so attack this pregnancy.

Sorry about the lack of personal messages.

Mel3062 Fri 19-Oct-12 19:09:51

Aw lemon fingers crossed :/
Pebbles I'm on day 29 x

Mel3062 Fri 19-Oct-12 19:47:49

Duggs yes I realise thanks about opks I've tested since a week last Sunday so nearly 2 weeks and got a line on each one and various positive lines its strange as not had ovitrelle this month and can't see me ovulating cd 29!?! My longest cycles been 32 x

Pebbles73 Sat 20-Oct-12 09:56:32

Wow bfp lemon! Feels strange saying this but hope the nausea has come back today if you know what I mean. Remember everybody always says the pred masks symptoms anyway.

Am going to do some research today on ivf at the Serum clinic in Athens. Just wondered if anyone on here knew of anyone who had been there?

lemonsherbet Sat 20-Oct-12 14:00:12

pebbles sorry do not know anyone who has been to Athens. Have you tried the infertility board part of mums net? The ladies there are usually very good about the different clinics

Arianrhod Sun 21-Oct-12 16:03:14

lemon Very cautious congrats and hope some reassuring symptoms come back!

pebbles Serum is who I did my infections testing through and if I were ever doing IVF I'd definitely think of,going there. Quite a few ladies on Fertility Friends go to Serum, in fact I think there's a whole sub forum devoted to this. Yep, here it is - lots of info and people to ask on here www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=372.0

HTH!

Arianrhod Sun 21-Oct-12 16:06:20

Agate's excellent Serum FAQ very well worth a read www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=372.0

Arianrhod Sun 21-Oct-12 16:07:06

Hmmm Silly iPad didn't copy the link - try again www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=274114.0

lemonsherbet Sun 21-Oct-12 19:21:28

Line was getting stronger-coming up immediately but have started spotting. Was just thinking with miscarriage number 1 how reassured I was by all the stories I was bleeding but it was all OK. This being pregnancy number 5 now know in my case not likely to be.

Mel3062 Sun 21-Oct-12 19:24:16

Aw honey so sorry to hear this fingers crossed its just usual pregnancy spotting for you xx

Arianrhod Mon 22-Oct-12 12:11:06

lemon How are you doing today?

pebbles Are you thinking of doing IVF at Serum then? I've heard nothing but good about Serum, the flights are a bit of a pain but I understand they're excellent - and a lot cheaper!

Nothing doing here, with his usual timing Mr Sod and his law has come into effect in that my CBFM tells me I'm going to ovulate tomorrow, but OH is away until Wednesday night (from last Saturday). First natural ovulation in 5 months (due to SO) and he's away. Fantastic timing sad

/waves to everyone, hope you all had good weekends!

Mel3062 Mon 22-Oct-12 18:56:08

Aw hun hope you catch it Wednesday it's always the way! X

FrankelSaysRelax Mon 22-Oct-12 19:09:19

Hello all, sorry for not coming back to you sooner & thanks for the replies.

I had my scan today and, after 7 injections, I am borderline over stimulating. I've got a 10mm follicle on my right ovary and a 12mm and 13mm on my left. My Clinic (NHS) will stop the cycle if you out up 4 or more follicles over 10mm.
The nurse spoke to the consultant and they've advised me to cut my dosage in half (from 75ml to 37.5ml) for today and tomorrow before having another scan on Wednesday. She thinks it is likely they will cancel the cycle but the good news is that it won't count towards one of the 3 I get free on the NHS.

Has anyone else experience of putting up too many follicles? Am I a fool to hope that 1 might shrink back down?!

lemonsherbet Mon 22-Oct-12 19:51:17

Am pretty sure am having miscarriage number 5. This one felt like a proper pregnancy not like the chemical pregnancy in April. I am just not sure where I go from here. Sorry this is such a me post.

Ari meant to say remember the sperm can live for 5 days so all may not be lost.

Mel3062 Mon 22-Oct-12 19:54:02

Aw lemon I really am praying for you x

Arianrhod Mon 22-Oct-12 20:33:38

lemon I'm so sorry, is it the spotting that makes you think this? I really hope it's not, but you obviously know your body best. Are you taking Pred? Remember it masks pregnancy symptoms for a lot of ladies.

Nice thought about sperm living up to 5 days but you know, given my track record of miracles just not happening, I'm not holding my breath smile

lemonsherbet Mon 22-Oct-12 21:45:15

It is the bleeding and it is just following the pattern of miscarriage 3 and 4. The spotting is gradually getting heavier (TMI I know). I just feel like I have felt in all my previous miscarriages (other than the late one), it just feels it is following the usual course. I really think I can write a book on miscarriages. Think I am going to see Dr G in November-DH also agrees. I suspect I have very high NK cells and something else. I figure Mr S plan works very well for some people but have been with him for over 1 year and feel it is just not working for me.

Pebbles73 Tue 23-Oct-12 18:30:14

Thanks so much for the info Ari you are a sweetie. So sorry about the crap timing for you this month, is so crap when that happens. sad

Lemon so sorry to hear you are bleeding, it's all such a nightmare! You never know though lots of people bleed and turns out to be ok.

Frankel I have over stimulated during ivf a couple of times and unfortunately once the follicles are there they won't go back down. Getting the drug dosage right is always a bit of trial and error.

Mel3062 Wed 24-Oct-12 08:09:17

Hi ladies,
Well I don't know what my bodies doing I'm
Day 34 today and no af and bfn so guess I've ovulated extremely late this month and stopped dtd too early sad I'd booked my scan next week whilst I'm off so now ill have to cancel it bloody typical that means ill need a day off now sad ARGH!!!!!

Mel3062 Wed 24-Oct-12 19:32:20

Also day 10 of steroids so don't know if to stop them or not as could've ovulated last thurs??

Pebbles73 Thu 25-Oct-12 13:30:23

It's never simple is it Mel! I don't know what you should do the steroids but try emailing Louise for some advice as she is really helpful.

Well I am on my lady super ov and taking 7.5mg letrezole which us giving me horrible night sweats and restless nights. Havecmy follie scan next Wednesday at 5:15.

Is very quiet in here, hope everyone is ok.

Arianrhod Thu 25-Oct-12 13:58:19

pebbles Letrozole makes me hot at night too, fortunately it's only for a few days. Are you considering IVF (again) if this cycle doesn't do the trick, hoping of course that it does? And if so, thinking of Serum, or your original clinic? (nosy, aren't I .. smile )

mel I'd echo pebbles, I don't know what to advise re the steroids but Louise is definitely the person to ask.

Very quiet around here, maybe people are hibernating early for the winter .. I know I'd like to! smile

Mel3062 Thu 25-Oct-12 14:49:39

She said steroids can delay af so good job I stopped them and to test again in a few days xx

duggs1976 Fri 26-Oct-12 19:03:05

Ladies some of us from pred thread are meeting tomorrow check out pred thread think 4 of us If u fancy it 12.30 at strada on south bank smile LJ71, brown stag a new last swlondonnanny and me. smile

duggs1976 Sun 28-Oct-12 07:38:44

lemon how are you doing? are you still going to see dr G ?
Pebbles what about you .. how are you?

AF arrived on Friday for me..loud and clear.
Just started 7.5mg letrozole for my final SO cycle...

Nice meet up yesterday...missed some of you I was totally late as trains and tubes were hideous.. but still what SO cycle are people on now?

Pebbles73 Sun 28-Oct-12 10:06:06

Hi all, so sorry I couldn't make it yesterday. Hope you all had a good natter about stuff that you can't talk about with real life friends.

Ari don't think you are nosey at all smile. I have only ever got pregnant with ivf so unfortunately I think us the only way forward although will speak to Mr S about having done more tests done first although us more expense! Not going back to my original clinic as they don't really deal with immune issues so looking elsewhere. My ideal choice would be ARGC but they are so expensive and have read stories if people spending £10,000 and £15,000 so not sure at the mo. Sthens seems good but they don't publish thier sucsess rates and may sound silly but after embryo transfer don't really want to do anything other than lie on the sofa at home! Will also check how much Mr S charges and get some info which they forgot to give me last time. Can't believe am on last cycle of super ov
already, hope I get lots of follies.

Duggs I wish you luck on this cycle and hope you get lots of follies. Watch out for those night sweats!

Lemon I hope you are doing ok, have been thinking if you.
Any sign of af yet Mel?

Mel3062 Sun 28-Oct-12 11:24:12

No af yet day 38 but got a bfn today sad got migraine since yesterday so she should be on her way, bloody hurry up!!!
Good luck to everyone xx

lemonsherbet Sun 28-Oct-12 16:53:55

Hi all, am doing OK. I saw a male GP who had no problems referring me on the NHS to a recurrent miscarriage clinic. Previously when I have seen a different GP they have said no because of the late miscarriage. So am planning on seeing Mr G after that. Since it may save me a bit of money. The appointment even came through really fast-middle of November. I need to rearrange it because I am away that week, but was really impressed. Have always seen the female GP but he was really sympathetic and thought it was important that all the basics were done before I went off to see another specialist!! (Best experience I have ever had with my GP surgery)

Mel am sorry that SO seems to have messed up your cycle this month hope it sorts itself out

Pebbles I know that duggs had ivf in the past although it ended in miscarriage. Thinks she had intralipids prior to embryo transfer. Think that may have been with Mr S so she may be able to give you more details. I have heard CARE mentioned a few times, not sure if they are any good. I have not had IVF-just thinking what has been mentioned in the past.

Duggs do you think you would try IVF again if this cycle does not work? or do you think you would ask Mr S for further cycles of SO. If I am right some of the cycles were when the DNA fragmentation was not diagnosed or the infections so surely they do not count or am I being thick?

Ari I know a little while back you were talking about LIT. At present am reading a book called "coming to term uncovering the truth about miscarriage" it mentions there that the group receiving LIT had a higher miscarriage rate than the placebo group. Although have only just started reading it I am finding it an enjoyable book (if that makes any sense). The authors wife suffered with recurrent miscarriage. It got a lot of personal stories in each section.

Frank hope you are doing OK.

brownstag Sun 28-Oct-12 18:48:37

Hallo all; I am sneaking back onto the superovulation thread just for this cycle. I can't afford any more SO with Mr S at the moment so I'm taking good old-fashioned Clomid from the NHS, which I've had knocking around the cupboard for ages, hoping that the three months of DHEA I've been taking will be enough to counteract its anti-oestrogenic effects. CD 5 today.
I rang my NHS consultant's secretary to ask if it's okay that I'm taking the Clomid alongside DHEA without a follicle tracking scan, as is the practice in this trust. She wasn't there so I left a message. The prospect of multiples might be enough to squeeze out a free scan on the NHS, who knows? Would be very interested to know what's going on in there after the DHEA.

A question for people taking hydroxy: have you had any more infections than usual since being on it for three months? I have had an outer ear infection, then labyrynthitis and now laryngitis and I've never had any of those in my life before. Probably just the time of year though.

brownstag Sun 28-Oct-12 18:50:20

Sorry, that should have said:
... have you had any more infections than usual? Since being on it for three months I have had an outer ear infection ...

gransol Sun 28-Oct-12 21:19:36

Hi all been following thread for a while but never written anything until now
I have just finished 6 months of SO with dr s on 50mg clomid as he said for my age that would be better as one of his younger patients (30) has never took us this long to fall naturally so totally confused as to why with clomid, ovitrelle and timed sex it never worked. Now taken a two month break as been on steroids too long
I have had seven very early loses never seen a heartbeat, not sure what to do next, Dr S says after break try SO again in the break nhs has agrred to dye test and a lap fingers crossed this helps, would welcome hope you dont mind me joining.

Mel3062 Mon 29-Oct-12 07:15:04

Welcome ladies x I've heard good things about lap and dye so fingers crossed itl work for you x

brownstag Mon 29-Oct-12 07:40:01

Welcome and good luck with the laparascopy gransol. I'm in the same boat, waiting for a dye test and laparoscopy and I'm pinning all my hopes on it as I haven't had a BFP since having my DS and he's nearly 4. Of course I am ancient though. My NHS consultant said just because my tubes were open 4 years ago there's no reason to assume they still should be. When I Googled it, it seems tubal abnormalities are the top reason for secondary infertility. That had never even occurred to me. So obviously things can happen to tubes when you're least expecting it! The only down side to that is, if they do find something wrong with your tubes and they open them, it isn't always a magic cure and some people still need IVF. But at least the mystery would be solved.

brownstag Mon 29-Oct-12 09:24:45

Ari, what treatment are you having now, if any?

Arianrhod Mon 29-Oct-12 09:55:42

Hi ladies - welcome gransol, I recognise your name from the Pred thread a while back, am I right? And hey brown /wave .. and you think you're ancient? lol I'm the old lady of the thread, I think! smile Interesting to hear of you both looking to have lap & dye, and also interesting that I've not heard of Mr S suggesting this to anyone, wonder why?

Your question about hydroxy brown - me personally I have had no side effects at all, and no infections at all. Given that hydroxy is an immunoregulator, which should balance your immune system down to 'normal' levels (theoretically) then perhaps it's doing what it should for you brown, if you're finding you're getting infections (meaning your immune system isn't overactive)?? Just a thought.

pebbles Doesn't sound silly to me that you want to put your feet up at home and take it easy after transfer, sounds exactly what I'd want to do if I were doing IVF too. I've heard really good things about Dr Gafar at NLC, I think he's the one who actually does the IVF treatment, isn't he? He came from ARGC, Mr S seemed very impressed with him when we were discussing things recently. I understand they do chromosome testing on the embryos there too.

duggs Fingers crossed for this SO cycle, hope the 7.5mg Letrozole does the trick!

lemon It's great to hear you're getting some proper treatment from your GP surgery, and isn't it interesting that it took you seeing a male GP to get this - you would think a female GP would be more understanding, wouldn't you? And thanks for that bit of info on LIT treatment - I've never heard of it possibly causing more miscarriages, seems a bit odd really.

Me, I'm now heading into cycle six on SO, having got 'pregnant' twice, cycles one and five, albeit both ended as early miscarriages. AF is due on Saturday (ish - it's always a little bit unpredictable in the cycle following a miscarriage), and then Letrozole/Gonal-f again. If that cycle doesn't work I will be doing more SO cycles, since Mr S says there's no reason why I can't carry on, at least for a few more cycles. Still chasing that good egg, I'm sure it's in there somewhere! I'm also going to do what I did last cycle, just take 10mg pred from OV rather than 25mg to avoid the bad side effects on my general fertility.

/waves to everyone

Mel3062 Mon 29-Oct-12 10:53:01

That sounds a good idea ari think ill do that with the pred too as this cycles v delayed :/ x

brownstag Tue 30-Oct-12 16:50:57

Yes, it is interesting that Mr S never seems to suggest anything but carrying on with superovulation treatment as far as I can tell. Has he ever suggested IVF to anyone? It sometimes seems that you have to do all the thinking yourself, as I really had to push with the NHS to see that consultant and was so relieved when he suggested something else, and he seemed more than happy to help once I got there. If it turns out my tubes are blocked I wil have to look back on the last two years with a sense of irony, all those rollercoaster two-week waits, all those drugs, all those tests, etc.
Ari, was that your idea with the 10mg, or did Mr S suggest it? I think even I could handle 10mg ... Good luck for Saturday.
Coopde, if you're on here, I have ordered Dr Beer's book. We'll see what can of worms that opens up! I seem to flit from one theory to another; currently DHEA and 'proximal disease' but I'm sure it'll be something else after reading it.

Arianrhod Tue 30-Oct-12 18:05:22

Yes Mr S has suggested IVF twice to me brown and the 10mg was my idea after researching what ladies are often given on the IVF boards. I also have the Dr Beer book, read it cover to cover when I first booked to see Mr S a year ago August, to see what I was getting into smile. Def worth a read.

Pebbles73 Tue 30-Oct-12 18:28:47

Hi Gransol and Brownstag and good luck for the laparoscopies, hope it gives you some answers.

Thanks for the info Ari re Mr Gafar, I saw him for a scan when Mr S was away and he seemed very nice. How are you feeling about everything? I am feeling a bit down as a year ago today since my miscarriage at 7wks and still not pregnant again and wonder if i ever will be! sad

Hope everyone else is doing ok, anyone at NLC on Thursday?

Mel3062 Tue 30-Oct-12 18:34:57

Aw hun you will, I know how you feel my last would of been due Xmas day. I'm still day 40 no af but a few pains sad
Update from nhs appt-
Had tests after my 16 week loss at this hosp then miscarried 3 times more at diff hosp, 1 8 weeks and 2 5 weeks. Had usual tests there then referred back to prev hosp today.inbetween I privately paid for nk cell test which I have v highly.
Hospital said when preg ring straight away and they'll do a mix of hcg injections and heperin to help prevent later loss. I feel pleased that the nhs are wanting to help me and give a plan!! just shows you ladies to get different opinions as my consultant did! But now do I go with this as well as nk treatment?! Will mr s like the fact I can get free heperin? X

Mel3062 Tue 30-Oct-12 18:48:25

Aw hun you will, I know how you feel my last would of been due Xmas day. I'm still day 40 no af but a few pains sad
Update from nhs appt-
Had tests after my 16 week loss at this hosp then miscarried 3 times more at diff hosp, 1 8 weeks and 2 5 weeks. Had usual tests there then referred back to prev hosp today.inbetween I privately paid for nk cell test which I have v highly.
Hospital said when preg ring straight away and they'll do a mix of hcg injections and heperin to help prevent later loss. I feel pleased that the nhs are wanting to help me and give a plan!! just shows you ladies to get different opinions as my consultant did! But now do I go with this as well as nk treatment?! Will mr s like the fact I can get free heperin? X

brownstag Tue 30-Oct-12 18:49:04

Thanks Pebbles.
Sorry to hear you're feeling down about it all. I feel the same lately, or at least rather hopeless. Sometimes I think I am doing all this just so that once I'm menopausal I will know I tried everything, but without much hope any more that it's ever going to happen. (Sorry to muscle in on your question to Ari!)
Ari, have you ever had any IVF? I always said I wouldn't have any, but I seem to be changing my own goal posts all the time.

brownstag Tue 30-Oct-12 18:56:35

Mel, I would have thought yes, to use both treatments, just to let both parties know what you're doing. I don't think Mr S will mind about the free heparin; when I told Louise that we were skint she and Mr Shehata were quite helpful in pointing out ways that I could reduce the costs where possible, such as getting my day 1-3 test done at my GP's.

Pebbles73 Tue 30-Oct-12 21:34:05

Sorry still no af Mel, hope it appears sooner rather than later!! Is great the nhs are helping you and agree with Brown that you should go with both treatments. The way I see it the more help the better.
It's hard dealing with these significant dates and such a help having people on here who understand how it feels.

It's tough isn't it Brown trying to stay optimistic, the whole thing really wears you down. I still can't get my head round the fact the fact that it probably won't happen unless i win the lottery and can just keep on having ivf until it works........

Arianrhod Wed 31-Oct-12 08:27:07

Understand it hard to being optimistic, that's exactly how I feel too. Much like you pebbles, I feel my last proper pregnancy was so long ago (July last year, got to 9 weeks before baby died) with nothing but early miscarriages since, it feels like I'm never going to manage to get 'properly' pregnant again and maybe I'm just kidding myself - not to mention throwing away so much money on all this treatment that I just don't have. OH pays for a bit, sometimes, but it's mostly down to me, and I just don't have £320 to spare every month, and that's just for SO sad

brown Truthfully I would do IVF like a shot now, if I could, just for the array CGH test to be able to rule out chromosomal issues. But I am never going to be able to afford IVF, ever - OH won't even consider it, we just don't have that kind of money (my DD is in private school, and school fees are horrible sad ). So, unless like pebbles wishes we win the Lottery, it's the natural way or no way for us.

mel I don't think for a second that Mr S will mind you getting free heparin, of course not, and it's fantastic that you have NHS support - wish they were that accommodating around here, I was told after my third miscarriage that I most likely wouldn't even be seen at the RMC at my hospital because I already had one child! That's why I didn't ever bother even going the NHS testing route, I went straight to Mr S.

pebbles Do you think you will do IVF again then, and have you decided where? I know it's a rough thing to put your body through, but you know, if it's your best shot then it's worth doing. Have you had the conversation with Mr S about why you're not getting pregnant now - or have you still got to have a review with him? There may be something else going on there that still needs to be found?

Mel3062 Wed 31-Oct-12 09:59:49

Aw ari that's awful to hear sad I must admit my local hosp weren't much help that's why they referred me! I feel cross I've had to suffer 4 times to get here sad ari it's understandable that you keep going but as time goes on its bound to get on top of you, it does me and as you say theirs all the expense on top sad
Thanks pebbles its driving me insane now sad
Ill mention it all when I see mr s next
Happy halloween xx

Arianrhod Wed 31-Oct-12 10:56:42

Oooh the Hallowe'en smileys are back! Been icing Halloween cookies this morning, was still baking them at half-ten last night due to something of a mistake on my part with the earlier batch of cookie dough. Here's a tip for you all; when the cookie dough recipe says 'chill for 30 minutes' do NOT chill them for 2.5 hours - the dough goes rock-hard that no amount of leaving out of the fridge (including for 24 hours!) does anything to improve. blush

Happy Hallowe'en, everyone - may all our AF witches decide to fly off with their brethren tonight, never to return! grin

lemonsherbet Wed 31-Oct-12 11:43:49

Ari it may be worth seeing if the NHS will do any of the basic investigations again for you. You hear of people having "normal" problems after having one child. I don't have any children and was initially told no because I had had a late miscarriage. So went to see a male doctor (in truth it was an accident-told the receptionist it was a gynaecological problem and so she booked me with a man). Anyway far more sympathetic than the female GPs I have seen. Said he did not see why I shouldn't be referred.

Like you I sometimes think I will be menopausal when I stop trying. I do feel guilty like I am putting our life on hold and stopping us doing exotic holidays and the like due to the money side. I often wish I had a crystal ball and could see if this is the right path. I guess what I am trying to say is I understand how you ladies feel.

Happy Halloween and may AF fly off not to return for 9 months.

Arianrhod Wed 31-Oct-12 14:31:18

Thanks lemon but you know, I've had enough tests to last me a lifetime, and enough problems that I really couldn't handle anymore! I don't think there's anything in the basic tests that I haven't already been checked for.

Crystal ball - oh yes please, I need one of those! Only want to borrow it for a bit, happy to share smile

Pebbles73 Wed 31-Oct-12 17:40:46

Just sitting in waiting room at NLC traffic here was nightmare and going back looks dreadful so not looking forward to that!

Must be hard paying for it all yourself Ari. Defo going to do more ivf as I am assuming this last super ov doesn't work. Going to ask Mr S about doing some more tests first though. Thought hoping super ov would work was a bit of a long shot but much cheaper than ivf so was worth a go.
Maybe we should start a lottery syndicate! wink

I second lemon re af flying off. smile

You are very good making cookies Ari!

Arianrhod Thu 01-Nov-12 11:35:49

How did you get on at NLC yesterday pebbles? See any witches flying around while you were there? smile

Pebbles73 Thu 01-Nov-12 13:35:27

Well good scan three good size follies on the left and one good one on the right. Lining was 11mm so was really pleased. smile

Had a chat with Mr S about what I should do next and he wants me to have the tnf alpha test if this cycle first work and if it is high to have humira. He said he is starting to offer this to ladies who have had three failed ivf's or taking a long time to get pregnant or never been pregnant. He said he is having really good results with the humira and a couple of ladies have got pregnant while wsiting for ivf after taking it.
I asked about Lad and DQ alpha and as expected he said it is a waste if time and he doesn't believe in it as there have not been enough trials. He said he is happy to do if if I want to so will go with the tnf alpha for now and see what happens with that. If I had the other tests and it turned out I needed Lit I can't really afford that along with ivf and all the other drugs anyway. He also said I should do another cycle of super ov as I have responded well while waiting for blood tests etc.
I do like the way he is so positive, he always says I am still young which I think at 39 is a tad optimistic though!!

He did say to me he had a lady who recently had the tests done but decided not to have Lit and I wanted to go ohh I know her as we are on the same forum! wink

Arianrhod Thu 01-Nov-12 14:11:09

LOL pebbles I find myself doing that so often, when he refers to people and I think Oh yes, I know her! grin Pity he didn't clarify exactly why I decided not to have LIT - because paternal LIT wouldn't have worked (due to DQa matching) and I was nervous of having donor LIT, plus I would have had to have gone to Greece to do it (ker-chinggggg! £££).

Fan-bl**dy-tastic result on the follies and the lining pebbles! Did you take the EPO/Starflower oil this month, just out of interest - I know you were thinking of stopping it, weren't you, due to last month's response? Very interesting about the testing - Mr S did say to me too that he was more interested in the TNF alpha test than he was previously, for women who are finding it difficult to get pregnant.

I know what you mean about his positive attitude - he said much the same thing to me, about how I might be 44 but my body isn't 44, it's younger. He definitely has the 'feel-good factor', his patient manner is excellent - I just hope we get results with him!

Fingers crossed those fabulous follies and fantastic lining do the trick this month - when do you trigger?

lemonsherbet Thu 01-Nov-12 14:42:02

Congrats on the result pebbles thats a fantastic result. If someone had told me 5 years ago I would be cheering on about follicle and linings I would of thought they were crazy.

Mel3062 Thu 01-Nov-12 17:04:21

Pebbles that's great news! I hope I get offered that too.
Evil witch came today sad a mix of disappointment yet relief that its here and I can get on with gonal f. Going Harley st on the 12th never been there before.
Waves to all xx

Pebbles73 Thu 01-Nov-12 22:59:10

Ari I stopped taking the starflower but I was on cyclogest last month to combsy the spotting so maybe that gas made my lining thicker. I haven't footed for two months now so maybe the lining has been able to build up better. I trigger in the morning and 'sex' Friday & Saturday, prefer it when he says intercourse! blush

I know what you mean lemon, if I thought I would be posting about when I was going to have sex I would have thought that was mad!! How are you feeling by the way?

Sorry about af Mel but at least you can get onto your next cycle.

Thanks for all your positive vibes ladies and wish everyone a lovely weekend.

duggs1976 Fri 02-Nov-12 08:26:06

Good news pebbles, good news! Were you on 7.5mg letrozole this time? I am this cycle - scan on Monday at Harley street...hello everyone smile

Pebbles73 Fri 02-Nov-12 08:53:06

Yes 7.5mg Duggs , hopefully will work well for you too. Good luck.

duggs1976 Fri 02-Nov-12 08:58:06

Ohh first time at 7.5mg pebbles?

Arianrhod Fri 02-Nov-12 12:15:30

Did we ever get a list of where everyone is at with their SO cycles? Are there a few of us now on our fifth/sixth cycle? pebbles and duggs, you are, aren't you? And me, of course. I'm just curious, I like stats smile And duggs, crossing fingers for your scan on Monday, do let us know how you get on!

Waiting patiently for AF to show her face so I can get on with my sixth cycle; I made a mistake thinking it's due tomorrow, it's not due until Tuesday. Oddly this cycle my bbs aren't hurting at all, which they always do almost straight after ovulation, so I'm wondering if I did even ovulate this month? I got an LH surge, double lines on my CBFM monitor stick and 'peak' reading, but just getting that surge doesn't guarantee of course that you will ovulate. Usually I would feel it, but I have had gastroenteritis so wouldn't notice a few extra cramps or pains in that region! Or of course it could be that this is my first full month of not taking agnus castus in a very long time, and of course that boosts progesterone, so perhaps the lack of that boost is why. Who knows, I wish I did?!

Mel3062 Fri 02-Nov-12 17:19:42

Month 6 for me starting gonal f tonight ....

Pebbles73 Fri 02-Nov-12 17:56:27

Yes first time in this dose Duggs and Ari this is cycle 6!

It's all a bit of a mystery if you ask me Ari!

duggs1976 Fri 02-Nov-12 18:13:59

Yes cycle 6 for me too! Oh I wonder if I get as good reaction as you pebbles? smile

brownstag Sun 04-Nov-12 19:48:50

I am on my 5th cycle of SO, but that's 3 on Clomid and 2 on Letrozole, and non-consecutive (over a year). I totally regret taking Clomid this month. I thought the DHEA would counteract the side effects of Clomid and would make me like a young person taking it, but sadly not. So no hope at all of anything happening this month.
Also, just an observation about surges which don't lead to ovulation. I have now been charting for 2 years and I've never had a surge that wasn't followed by a temperature shift (although some cycles had short luteal phases) so based on that I would say that it's extremely likely that you did ovulate. I've also noticed that since having my last SO with Mr S, I no longer feel ovulation. I always used to and on that last SO cycle, ovulation was extremely painful.
Good luck everyone with this cycle!

Pebbles73 Mon 05-Nov-12 13:05:40

Good luck for today Duggs hope you get a good result. Let us know.

Sorry to hear the chlomid didn't work for you Brownstag, funny you should mention ovulation pains as I had terrible stomach ache Saturday morning and afternoon which I assume was ovulation.

Arianrhod Mon 05-Nov-12 13:26:39

Interesting brown, I've found the complete opposite - SO has had no effect on my ovulation pains at all, it's only this month since I stopped the agnus castus that I didn't feel anything. I await this next cycle of SO with interest smile

Do you know for definite that the Clomid hasn't had the right effect this month brown?

Best of luck duggs, let us know how you get on.

Mel3062 Mon 05-Nov-12 16:02:30

Aw good luck duggs x

duggs1976 Mon 05-Nov-12 18:01:55

Well just seen dr s at Harley st. CD11 and 3 follies - not sure if they are "good size" or not as I usually have fewer but larger. They were all 14mm so he said to trigger on Wednesday CD 13. 10mm lining so he said he was pleased. He talked to me about TNF alpha (awkward.com) as I've had with dr g but I managed to get around it with a few huffs and puffs at patients "trusting" him etc. oh well we will see. Just paid £40 something for my ovitrelle ahh can I pre order it somewhere less expensive? How is everyone else ? Any testers lurking?

Mel3062 Mon 05-Nov-12 20:41:29

Well that's good hun. How come ovitrelle isn't £20?! X

lemonsherbet Mon 05-Nov-12 21:01:05

think it is the difference between NLC and Harley street

Pebbles73 Mon 05-Nov-12 22:24:54

Sounds good to me Duggs, I had two at 14, one at 21 and one at 18.i didn't know you could buy it at Harley St and had a nightmare finding it at a chemist last month!
If you don't mind me asking was your tnf alpha result ok?

Mel3062 Tue 06-Nov-12 06:06:41

Aw I was hoping to get a £20 one sad ill have to get it at central homecare with my gold dust gonal f ( have to inject myself for first time tonight argh!)
is the scan and consultation still £210 the same??
X

duggs1976 Tue 06-Nov-12 06:55:32

Yes I got it at local chemist wellbeck on Devonshire street near marleybone high street was expensive though! My TNF a result was 27.7 so upper end but as long as under 30 then is ok... Yes he is at Harley street Mondays which is more convenient for me.

lemonsherbet Tue 06-Nov-12 07:14:16

I not sure you can buy it at Harley street. Never been to Harley street but I remember being told you can buy it at NLC but think you have to get it yourself at Harley Street.

brownstag Tue 06-Nov-12 08:03:09

I initially bought it via Mr S, and he told me it was cheaper to order it in advance from this company they were using. Can't remember the name but it wasn't cheap, £35 maybe?
ari, I haven't ovulated yet on the Clomid so I can't say for sure it hasn't worked. I'm sure there's a veritable clutch of eggs ripening in there but I can't see any sperm being able to navigate the primordial sludge that is my CM. grin
Good luck with all those follies everyone!

Havingkittens Tue 06-Nov-12 09:06:58

Hello, not been around on this thread for a while but just wanted to respond to the Ovitrelle question. It's £20 from NLC, but you need to check they have it in stock before you pick it up. It's also £20 from Central Homecare, where Mr S can send a prescription but they charge £14 for delivery to London, so it still works out cheaper than a lot of chemists, even with delivery. They do free delivery with a minimum spend (can't remember what it is though), which works out if you are on Gonal F - so good for you Mel, but otherwise you're stuck with the delivery cost.

Good luck with your 3 follies Duggs. 14mm sounds good. He says they need to be bigger than 12mm before he knows they will be viable.

Best of luck to you all. xx

brownstag Tue 06-Nov-12 09:47:44

Having kittens, that must be the same one I had. I didn't realise it was the delivery that made it so expensive.
Mmm, I've just been reading about DQ-alpha matching. I've read the webpage several times and I understand the genetics of it now (I think). Has anyone had the K-562 target cell test? Now, I have already had one child by my husband. As I understand it, that doesn't necessarily mean we don't have matching DQa's? Is that right? Yet I also do have high natural killer cells. Is it possible to have alloimmune and autoimmune problems? Is Mr S interested in this aspect and does he test for it?

The following para I found of possible relevance to my own case, but I don't want to be going on a wild goose chase ... :

'Such NK cell activity will initially often be limited and accordingly TH-cytokine production will wax and wane (in between exposures), allowing .early implantation (albeit with a damaged embryo) to proceed and even proceed for a limited period of time, only to abort in the first trimester. Ultimately, over time following repeated and successive exposures to DQa-“matching” embryos, NK cell activation will become a permanent feature. Once this happens uterine NK cell activation (as measured by the K-562 target cell test) will exacerbate to the point that as soon as the embryo reaches the uterus implantation will be thwarted and the woman will be considered as being “infertile” when in reality she is experiencing a very early, preclinical miscarriage.'

Sorry if you've already covered this somewhere. I'm a bit out of date.

Arianrhod Tue 06-Nov-12 09:48:32

duggs follies sound good to me, know what you mean about the cost of Ovitrelle. As kittens mentions I get mine from Central Homecare at the same time as my gonal-f, which makes it £20, or from NLC if I go there for my scan.

brown Get yourself some pre-seed, for those primordial sludge days ;)

Well AF hasn't shown her head this morning and probably should have done, but I'm not holding my breath since post-mc anything could happen. Nope, I'm not testing since I don't believe in any way there could be surviving wrigglies after 4 days (I know it happens for some ladies, but I just don't believe it would happen for me!) plus even without steroids I feel in no way pregnant at all. AF is just ... well ... out on the town, I guess, flying around on her broomstick smile

/waves to everyone

Arianrhod Tue 06-Nov-12 09:59:32

brown I've not had that specific test but absolutely yes it is possible to have both alloimmune and autoimmune problems - I have both. And yes you could have one child with your DH and still have DQa problems. My OH and I are 100% matched for DQa (we are both 0201,0303) and this means that any embryo has a 50% chance of being a direct match with me, meaning my body would kill it off as not being 'different' enough to me. But equally that means any embryo has a 50% chance of NOT being a match, and so (theoretically) would be ok.

To explain a little, if this doesn't make sense, since an embryo takes one marker from each parent, it could end up being one of the four following possibles:

0201,0201 (one from me, one from OH)
0303,0303 (ditto)
0201,0303 (exact match for me)
0303,0201 (ditto)

So in the first two cases the embryo would survive, since it is sufficiently different to me, but in the last two cases it would be destroyed.

Hope that helps, a little!

brownstag Tue 06-Nov-12 11:00:32

Thanks Ari. Yes, that all makes sense. Thus far I had understood from my biology A level a very long time ago! In fact I've just had the post and Dr Alan Beer's book has arrived so I'll be able to study it in a bit more detail.
What a situation to be in for you, knowing that getting pregnant is a lottery unless you have IVF. Although I suppose it's the same for all of us ladies except you know the actual reason why.
So what test did you have and with whom?

Arianrhod Tue 06-Nov-12 11:13:34

I asked Mr S if OH and I could do the DQa test (along with the LAD test and karyotyping) and he agreed, sending us to TDL to get them done. Which I am now fighting my insurance company about, since while they agreed at the time to pay for it (back in June), they have now rejected the claim and won't pay. They've told me they will now have to listen to the recording of the phone conversation in which they authorised these tests to see whether or not they did actually agree to them being done ... the fact that they gave me an authorisation code for it doesn't seem to matter! angry

brownstag Tue 06-Nov-12 11:50:07

How infuriating! Having had similar things with cat insurance in the past, I fully sympathise.
Can I ask how much that test alone cost? I've had karyotyping already.
I'm meant to be working but am avidly reading Dr Beer instead, all about my uterus behaving like a den of lions after perceiving my placenta as a cancer in my last pregnancy ...

Arianrhod Tue 06-Nov-12 12:09:22

The DQa test on its own was £100 each, so £200 total. LAD test was 'only' £85 each, I thought it would be more than that.

I found Dr B's book very interesting, seemed to have all the answers. Yet even knowing what it says in there and having had most of the tests recommended, here I am, one year and three months after starting this whole RMC investigation lark and over 2.5 years of TTC, still with nothing to show for it except an extremely empty bank balance and a whole world of frustration.

brownstag Tue 06-Nov-12 13:07:03

Thanks. Yes, the book is all very upbeat but we all know it's not quite that simple. And it all assumes we have unlimited cash to pursue every avenue. I am now reading the parts about endometriosis, which I have, stage 4, and am quite amazed I have ever produced a baby at all. I'm definitely getting the feeling I'm not approaching the whole thing aggressively enough, with just hydroxy.

Arianrhod Tue 06-Nov-12 14:00:11

Ah, now you've hit the nail squarely on the head. The cost of all the investigations can be huge, and the treatments on top even more so (be thankful none of us have been told we need iVIG ... !). Even just supplements can work out very expensive (certainly if you take as many as I do!), and if you then factor in IVF as so many do ... well you can see why some people take out second mortgages. It's frightening sad

So what do you think you might do next brown?

brownstag Tue 06-Nov-12 15:14:04

Yes, I'm rattling with my supplements. And they always seem to run out at the same time, when I'm down to about a fiver in my account.
I suppose I'm pinning quite a lot of hope on my laparoscopy. If he tells me that everything looks normal then I shall start thinking of other tests. There might even come a point when I think of asking wealthier family members for a loan. Taking DHEA has relieved a certain amount of my anxiety that it's now or never.
I was interested to read in Dr Beer's book that severe postnatal depression is linked with the whole immune thing. After I had my DH, I was hospitalised for 2 months, in a mother and baby psychiatric unit, with what they thought initially was postnatal depression, but was later diagnosed as bipolar disorder. It was a total nightmare for everyone involved and took a long time to resolve. I still take medication for it, to add to my other dozens of tablets.
I think the cumulative stress of recurrent miscarriages was a major trigger, that on top of my generally obsessive personality, and the sudden withdrawal of pregnancy hormones. Even if you get the baby in the end, that anxiety doesn't just vanish overnight; it just morphs into something else. So I would say to everyone on here, whatever stage you're at, look after yourself as much as possible and take time to relax.

duggs1976 Tue 06-Nov-12 15:34:32

brownstag that's very interesting to read. Sad of course but helpful to others. I was seeing zita west psychotherapists and had deep hypnosis treatment as my anxiety and obsessiveness after the last mc after IVF in march tipped me over. I was and am still a little, convinced having a baby ( my first) will solve everything and I couldn't see my life or move forward without that. I think I've eased up a little as I slowly wonder if I ever will get that dream but it is interesting to hear it isn't all rosy and rainbows once you get there. Perhaps a rude awakening. I have had all the dr g tests DQ alpha match too they do add up but is less than an IVF round.

Arianrhod Tue 06-Nov-12 15:41:09

Ha! I know exactly what you mean .. I'm almost out of resveratrol, multi-vits, pycnogenol and something else that escapes me that's just as expensive (can't believe the price of resveratrol, something like £22 for a month's supply!) and I don't get paid for another 9 days sad Too much month left at the end of the money!

Sorry to hear about the bipolar ... I tell you, those hormones have got a hell of a lot to answer for. And stress of repeated miscarriages, even if you physically bounce back each time they do have an emotional impact with a much longer reach than people expect who haven't been through the same, I think.

Have you got a date through for your lap? If nothing else it will reassure you that all is well inside - or else provide you with something to look into. Either way, you have another piece of the puzzle - for me, all information is vital, whether positive or negative; at least you know a bit more afterwards than you did before, IYSWIM.

brownstag Tue 06-Nov-12 16:06:50

Ha ha, I like it, too much month left at the end of the money!
I've banned myself from reading the Healthspan/Nature's Best/etc magazines they send as there's always some new supplement that I'm sure to want. I'm itching to Google a couple you've listed but am resisting ...
My perinatal psychiatrist, who is a fantastic woman, a complete genius, told me recently they are starting to realise that hormones are neuroactive substances. They are now working on ways to use oestrogen safely as a treatment for postnatal illness/depression, plus possibly for schizophrenia. I'm sure lack of oestrogen was an important factor for me because at the time I started going bonkers I was having hot flushes and night sweats. Insomnia was my main symptom, and interestingly since taking DHEA I've been sleeping like a log.
And yes, Duggs, managing anxiety always used to be last on my list of priorities because I was only interested in that ONE THING, but I realise the error of my ways now. Not only for my sake but for other people too.

Arianrhod Wed 07-Nov-12 09:52:29

Well, AF has shown her face this morning, albeit very light and thin/watery - I've never had an AF like that, so a bit puzzled as to what's going on. Typically the 'ideal' 2 days for a follie scan fall on Sat/Sun this month, so I'm either going to have to have an early scan again on CD10 or a late one CD13. Here we go again ....

lemonsherbet Wed 07-Nov-12 10:05:02

Sorry AF showed her head.

Arianrhod Wed 07-Nov-12 10:28:15

I expected it lemon, but ty smile

brownstag Wed 07-Nov-12 11:23:45

Sure it couldn't be implantation if it's so different? Having said that, my last period was like that for the first day, where it normally starts suddenly and heavily overnight.

Arianrhod Wed 07-Nov-12 11:35:17

Def. not implantation, just ... odd. Perhaps because it's post-mc? Not sure, I guess I just wait to see what happens at my follie scan, what my lining is like.

Pebbles73 Wed 07-Nov-12 14:18:38

Sorry about af Ari and hope it is not to much of a weird one.

It sounds like you went through a really hard time brown so glad to hear you are looking after yourself. Also wise words about the anxiety not going away just because you eventually reach that goal.

Duggs I know what you mean about wondering if you will ever reach the dream, mine has become more and more distant as time has gone by. I used to imagine and fantasise what it would be like having a baby but i don't bother torturingvnyself anymore!!

Sorry for the depressing post, not feeling well at the moment with a cold and feeling quite down about lack of success with super ov sad

Arianrhod Wed 07-Nov-12 14:28:28

Big hugs for you pebbles, understand the feeling. Try to take heart from what happened with abney, where SO did nothing and then she got pregnant naturally once she stopped taking the meds. Just goes to show that Nature wants things her way ... smile

Pebbles73 Wed 07-Nov-12 16:59:54

I know nice thought Ari but has never happened naturally for us only with ivf....

Mel3062 Wed 07-Nov-12 17:59:16

I think we need a group hug sad xx

Pebbles73 Wed 07-Nov-12 18:11:36

Yes defo, think we could all do with one!'

duggs1976 Wed 07-Nov-12 23:11:23

Yes please. Just had a Facebook ambush of people and their babies looking so content!!!!

Arianrhod Thu 08-Nov-12 08:16:57

Know what you mean duggs, found the same on FB last night, even the 'comedy' posts seem to be about babies, and a friend of mine is posting lots of pics of his beautiful newborn baby daughter. While I'm honestly thrilled for him, at the same time ... well, you know.

brownstag Thu 08-Nov-12 11:56:46

Yes, we know! Don't you also find that certain people having babies affects you more than others? Usually I really am genuinely pleased, but there's the odd one where I've had to have a private weep and feel, yes, I admit, total envy. I have one friend for instance who was trying at the same time as me and kept sending me texts saying things like 'Babies in the forties! That's the way to go! All it takes is good timing!' It might be the way to go, if, like her, you've never had a fertility problem in your life. But when you've got endo, a history of recurrent miscarriage, high NK cells, one ovary working, as well as being the wrong side of forty, it's not quite so simple. And of course she is now 22 weeks pregnant, aged 42, having tried for a few months. Which is lovely for her, of course, but I couldn't help feeling she'd turned it into a race, one that I was bound to lose. It was almost a relief when I did 'lose', to be honest and I could stop secretly dreading hearing her inevitable good news.

lemonsherbet Thu 08-Nov-12 12:36:14

I know what you mean for me it is usually family ones that I find hard. It is also those that were pregnant with their first at the same time has my first miscarriage are now on baby 2/3, whilst I am still waiting to get off the starting line so to speak. I also had one person who wanted me to join her group so I could follow her pregnancy week by week, obviously hide those updates.

I just keep thinking eventually we will get there. Also it is not "my" baby they have got, so am usually happy for them. Just can be so hard when FB is full of babies at the moment

Arianrhod Thu 08-Nov-12 13:05:46

That's where we need that crystal ball again lemon. I could put up with all this treatment, supplements, even the miscarriages, if I knew that at the end of it it would work - we will get our baby. But I'm 44, 45 in 2 months, and just don't have that assurance that it really will happen, unfortunately sad

brown Know what you mean .. it's fantastic that your friend is pregnant at 42, but it really doesn't make it any easier for you. Group hug!!

brownstag Thu 08-Nov-12 17:39:49

Thanks, gratefully received. But Ari, you may be nearly 45, but you are obviously very fertile for your age, and while that is the case, there is as much hope as for anyone else having the treatment. Your rate of conception is like that of a much younger woman. And you know what your problem is, with the DQas.
But yes, I would certainly really go for it, with steroids too, if I knew there was a finite period that I'd have to do it for. And if I knew too, that it was just an immune problem, not anatomical, or age-related, or anything else ...
Does anyone know whether it's worthwhile having a repeat NK test while on hydroxy? Does it alter levels like steroids do? Or just alter their behaviour? I haven't had a test since I was first pregnant 4 years ago and I think if I knew my levels had increased dramatically I would start doing what you're doing, Ari, with the 10mg of pred. I may ask Louise.

Pebbles73 Thu 08-Nov-12 20:22:10

Oh dear I feel like I have put everyone on a downer and send you all a hug. The whole FB thing must be difficult, having to see all the photos and what amazing things the baby is doing etc you all have my sympathies. I am not on FB (knew there was a reason not to be!) but couple of people at work just had babies and have go be happy for them and look at thier photos. If only people knew what we were all going through!!

Brown I am glad you said that about some people's pregnancies affecting you more than others as thought I was a bit strange like that! One of my good friends had a little girl about 18mths ago through ivf and because she lives round the corner I see her all the time. Her little girl is lovely and because she knows me and my dh so well she puts her arms up for us to pick her up. I was completely fine with her pregnancy but a girl at work who is generally really nice was about four months pregnant when I miscarried and I have had to really avoid her as it really upset me! It doesn't help that she comes into work with the baby all the time, I just make myself look really busy as she just passes the baby around.

We need some good news and positive tests on this thread soon..,

brownstag Sat 10-Nov-12 18:37:30

No, Pebbles, it wasn't you that put us on a downer, just life!
Emailed Louise yesterday about whether it was worthwhile doing a repeat NK cells test, and at first she said if I was happy with the management it was an expense I could avoid. Then I went on to say that I hadn't conceived since having my DH nearly 4 years ago, and that I'd be interested to know whether they had increased. She said to book an appointment as they have a new test for people who haven't conceived in a long time. Sounds intriguing. anyone had this/know what it's testing? Not sure if that's in addition to the NK one but I may have to dig into my ISA once again.

Mel3062 Sat 10-Nov-12 20:39:53

Brown stag I'm seeing mr s on Monday and Louise mentioned this to me so hopefully ill find out more then ;)
Pebbles it's not you that's putting downers it's our situations and the fact that it can be so easy for some and so unfair for others xx

brownstag Sun 11-Nov-12 08:00:36

Thanks Mel, I'd be very interested.

brownstag Sun 11-Nov-12 08:04:36

Oh, I also meant to say, for anyone who's planning on an AMH test, I found a cheap one online, with Duo Fertility, for £45. I've got an appointment on Thursday at my GP's to take the blood. It says it can be used any time of the month, but it doesn't mention fertility treatments. I used Clomid at the beginning of the month and it will be day 23 by then. Anyone know if that's okay?

Pebbles73 Sun 11-Nov-12 13:03:26

Brown she was probably talking about the tnf-alpha blood test which I am having done if I don't conceive this month. You have that and a tb blood test and if it is high you have humira which is an injection two weeks apart and then another tnf-alpha blood test to see if it had worked. I think the blood test was around £250 and the two shots of humira if needed are £450 so not cheap! Thank god or credit cards! He said he us seeing done good sucsess with this and a couple of ladies had it while waiting for ivf and got pregnant naturally including one who had never been pregnant before.

Mel3062 Sun 11-Nov-12 13:20:33

Yikes I wish hubby wasn't coming with me now!! Still cheaper than ivf I keep telling him....

Pebbles73 Sun 11-Nov-12 13:42:17

Tell me about it Mel as no doubt we will have to pay for ivf on top of these tests, think we will be on debt forever!! Have you had your follie scan yet this month or are you going soon?

How are you doing Duggsyou have been very quiet, must be all that swi! wink

duggs1976 Mon 12-Nov-12 08:36:19

Hey girls! I'm here.dr s seems to be wheeling this "new" test out to us all. He didn't seem impressed that I'd had it done back in may elsewhere. Well I hope it helps some of us on here that don't seem to be able to get anywhere. Any testers this week?

brownstag Mon 12-Nov-12 09:40:49

Thanks Pebbles. Has anyone had Humira? It sounds a bit scary, from what I've read!
How does this relate to DQ-alpha? In no way at all? Would I be right in thinking that Humira is the mother of all immune suppressants? Does it therefore cover all and any immune problems? Are the two injections all you need? So many questions!

ChoccyPud Mon 12-Nov-12 10:38:08

Morning ladies - Just invading briefly on the Humira query...

I had it a couple of months ago. Definitely get a medic/nurse to do it for you - its £800 ish for two injections and you can only get it from central home care (unless that's changed since) so way too much money to risk messing up the injection if you aren't confident in what you're doing. In my case the first pen injection the nurse tried was faulty and exploded everywhere too and I'm not the only patient that's happened to...

I was allergic to it and wasn't allowed the second jab - I came up in a prickly itchy rash after about 5 days and Mr S put me on 25mg Pred to sort that out! Plus piriton and aqueous cream! He hadn't seen that bad a reaction but if you go online it seems slight rashes are not uncommon. But that's not a concern that would've stopped me trying it. It's all risk/reward at the end of the day.

I'd always say go for it but keep an eye out for the usual signs of allergic reactions.

Afaik DQ-alpha is a separate thing btw. Humira is to reduce TNF alpha which is causative/related to conditions like rheumatoid arthritics, Crohn's disease etc. it causes swelling somewhere. Sorry cant remember the details now but there's lots of info if you google. smile

brownstag Mon 12-Nov-12 10:49:37

Thanks Choccypud. That sounds quite a dramatic reaction. So presumably you don't know what effect having only the one injection has had on your TNF alpha levels? Does Mr S think you should just carry on with pred?
If the treatment works, does it result in a permanent change?
Duggs, what was the result of your TNF alpha test?

Arianrhod Mon 12-Nov-12 11:07:47

DQ-alpha is a genetic thing, humira has no effect on that. I was just going to say you should ask choccy for her humira experience, and there she was smile

ChoccyPud Mon 12-Nov-12 11:18:19

Waves to ari - I'm still lurking every now and then! ;)

My levels did drop quite a bit. Anything over ?32 is high. I was at ?45 and dropped to 33/34 I think just with the one jab. However he'll tell you that the number isn't necessarily definitive in itself. So don't get despondent if your levels don't fall/don't fall by much. It stays in your system for a few months.

brownstag Mon 12-Nov-12 11:59:36

Mmmm, reading Dr Beer, it seems they are interconnected.
In the part about DQA combinations he says of a couple that share the 0501 genotype: 'Her NK cells may treat the rapidly dividing embryonic 'altered self' cells like a form of cancer and secrete TNF-alpha to destroy them'.
And he says that when a couple's tissue type is too closely matched (i.e. the DQ-alpha issue, category 1), it can start a chain reaction of problems in categories 2, 3, 4 and 5, namely blood clotting problems, an immune reaction to the baby, both partners having antiboides to sperm and white cells running riot.
Bloomin' complicated stuff! But I think this is the way to go for me. When I have some money ...

Pebbles73 Mon 12-Nov-12 13:55:39

It's all very complicated stuff!

I wonder why the price I was given was so much different to yours Choccy? Great that just the one injection made a difference for you, will you have to take it again or is that it?

Arianrhod Mon 12-Nov-12 14:10:11

pebbles - you sure it wasn't £450 each, per shot? just a thought ..

BellyD Mon 12-Nov-12 17:31:55

Hi All, have been lurking for weeks but keeping my head down and massively sympathising with all the fb chat - so painful. Was really hoping to have some good news to share with you this pm, but sadly it is mc no.6 for us. I was too terrified to tell you about my bfp in Sept as only had last mc in July and not sure I was mentally prepared. Also I felt guilty that we conceived on 1st SO cycle which I realise is/was so lucky compared with what you ladies are going through. Sadly it was not to be and despite trying really hard with the pma I just am now devoid of all belief that I can carry a baby. We threw everything at it that we could: 25mg Pred, hydroxy, clomid, 800mg cyclogest, aspirin, folic acid, not to mention fish oil and vits etc. I can't have intralipids due to a soya allergy. We got 3 days further to 6w4days but should have measured 7w1day. But most importantly no heartbeat. It's the first time we have ever seen anything resembling a baby, which makes it all the more heartbreaking. We now have to decide what to do. Really don't think I can face another erpc (5th).
I have a high tnf alpha too 36.3 but Mr S says there is only evidence that it can impact conceiving through IVF and none that it plays a role in rmc. What do you all think? I can't face having the humira personally because I am so hideously allergic to everything. Pebbles are you due to test soon? Keeping my fingers crossed for you. Sorry to be all about me, was so hoping to provide inspiration rather than spread more gloom.

BellyD Mon 12-Nov-12 17:44:53

Sorry meant clexane not clomid.

duggs1976 Mon 12-Nov-12 18:08:11

ok catching up on here.
Firstly bellyd so sorry to hear this news. Have you considered perhaps looking into Dr Gorgy as he is much more closely aligned to Dr Beer's books and if this is going to be your one last time then you know you have done all you can. It might take a few months for you to decide.
Is kind of related to all the TNF alpha and humira talk as Dr S is only just "rolling it out" to all his patients but I can't help but think the pick and chose process with us all seems a bit half hearted at times. Doesn't it make sense that all is related? I guess if the treatment is similar then not so much to worry about ?
My result for TNF alpha was 27.9 anything under 30 is ok apparently.
The injection is £700 according to Louise and Dr S last monday... humira I mean.. for both.
ARGC have been using humira for a while now.

brownstag Mon 12-Nov-12 18:23:42

BellyD, I'm so so sorry. But I wouldn't give up hope of ever carrying a baby. Although my current situation is not much of an inspiration to anyone, my DS is a pred baby, after 4 miscarriages, and before having him I really believed that it would and could never happen. I just think that pregnancy was different somehow. I had to wait a few days for an appointment with Mr S once I had found I was pregnant with him, and so didn't take the steroids immediately, but my previous two pregnancies wouldn't even have lasted that long. Even though I know I needed the steroids, I also think the pregnancy was stronger in some sense in the first place. And your next one may be.
But only you can know what you're prepared to go through.
How long ago did Mr S say that about Humira not helping with rmc? Maybe he's changed his mind. After all, I once found an interview with him denouncing steroids in pregnancy!

lemonsherbet Mon 12-Nov-12 21:11:02

bellyD just wanted to say how sorry I am for you. We are going to Mr G after we have had the investigations done by the NHS recurrent miscarriage clinic in January. It may be something to consider, especially since Mr S seems to be coming round to Mr G way of thinking. I hope you are taking care of yourself. I know that there is nothing that I can really say to make it better. So I will tell you a fact from the miscarriage book I am reading. 70% of women with 3 or more miscarriages will go on to have a successful pregnancy. To be honest that has been giving me hope this week so I thought I would share.

A very unmumsnet hug. Thinking of you.

duggs1976 Mon 12-Nov-12 21:50:46

What is that book lemon I like that stat!
Sounds like one I'd like to read. .

lemonsherbet Tue 13-Nov-12 07:45:29

It is called "Coming to term: uncovering the truth about miscarriage" by Jon cohen

Pebbles73 Tue 13-Nov-12 08:59:38

Ari as you can tell I wasn't fully awake yesterday and yes of course must be £450 an injection! wink I desperately hope I font need it at that price!!

Belly just want to say how very sorry I am to read your news. Remember we know how devastating it is and are all here for you should you want to talk about it. In the meantime look after yourself and try and plan something nice to do when you are feeling up to it.

Sounds like an interesting book to look into.

Waves to everyone else, I am due to test Saturday and unfortunately my mother on law will be there, guess it will stop me going into meltdown when it is negative....
Duggs when are you due to test?

Arianrhod Tue 13-Nov-12 09:59:14

bellyd I'm so, so sorry you have had to go through this again, and we all know how very hard it is to feel positive when nothing seems to be working. Huge hugs to you, we can hold each other's hands (virtually) and hope that magical number 7 works for us both. This whole process is so damn hard, we just have to keep faith somehow that it's just a matter of catching the right egg. I know faith is hard to come by, especially right now, so let us have the faith for you while you decide what to do next. xx

Arianrhod Tue 13-Nov-12 10:00:46

Cross-posted ... pebbles So we can all keep our fingers/toes/eyes/ears crossed for you for Saturday! smile Are you going to have the TNF-a test then? And know what you mean about the price - why are these treatments so damn expensive?!

BellyD Tue 13-Nov-12 12:24:58

Ladies, thank you for all your words of support. Hoping this is your month Pebbles. We went to see Dr Gorgy in between the last mc and this pregnancy. Had all the tests and like Ari my LAD was negative, and also I had the raised TNF alpha. Had to 'fess up to Mr S that we had been and he was NOT happy. He rubbished the LAD test but was interested in the TNF alpha and said now he knew mine was raised we should think about treating it. Brownstag Mr S said to me yesterday that there was evidence that humira helps people conceive through ivf if they have raised tnf alpha but that there isn't any evidence of the role humira or a raised tnf alpha plays in recurrent miscarriage. I can't help thinking they must be linked though but am simply too terrified to take the humira. The only Dr G test we haven't managed to do was the hidden infection one because I could never get a decent enough sample, if I mc naturally do you think I could send off that blood? Sorry if tmi. X

holldoll Tue 13-Nov-12 15:31:02

Hi guys - I've been lurking about again, so sorry to hear your news belly it's so frustrating getting pregnant and then every day being a lifetime. I'm so sorry for you.
Could I have some advice, I'm due to test this week, but I'm worried about the ovitrelle. Everyone says different things when it comes to its longevity in our systems. What do you guys do. When do you test? Thank in advance and good luck to anyone else testing this week x

BellyD Tue 13-Nov-12 16:59:17

Holldoll I tested from 10dpo and ovitrelle was def still in my system. I then tested each day and started taking pred from day 12po as I still had a bfp. I think the ovitrelle should be out of your system by then. I almost like to track it if you know what I mean. I tested until day my period was due when I got a strong line and then stopped and didn't go with a digi test at all to try and keep the mentalling at bay. I hope that is helpful.

Arianrhod Tue 13-Nov-12 17:48:39

holl I'd echo belly - I've had traces of Ovitrelle in my system still at 10dpo so I don't test now until 12dpo. But I know some ladies that it's out of their system by 10dpo.

holldoll Tue 13-Nov-12 18:07:47

Yes it is - thank you. I think it's because I do not want to stay on pred longer than needed. I'm testing it out too, I'm 9dp trigger now and 7 dpo. It adds another level to to being stressful around testing.
Thanks again

Mel3062 Tue 13-Nov-12 18:28:50

Bellyd my heart goes out to you sad
As for me saw mr s who was v pleased as I had good response from gonal f 3 on 1 side, 1 on the other 18, 17, 15,12 so he was pleased smile
He's happy for me to continue it for another 2 cycles but said I'd need a break for a month due to the steroids, does that mean no trying??sad
He also wants me to take the alpha test which I will try arrange near my next scan date I think, 2 birds with one stone. It has to be done in a morning and only at Harley st is that right??
X

duggs1976 Wed 14-Nov-12 06:31:32

belly that should be fine as long as is blood from your uterus then they should be able to test it. pebbles I'm due to test next Wednesday so I'm only a week past trigger injection today!! Yawn.

brownstag Wed 14-Nov-12 08:10:23

holldoll, Ovitrelle was out of my system almost instantly. I started testing really early, 8dpo maybe, and never had a false postive. Mel, those were my exact numbers on my last 7.5mg letrozole cycle!
Yawn for me too, Duggs, only 5dpo. Toying with the idea of starting 10mg pred now, but also thinking it will be a waste of time because of the recent primordial sludge situation.
Good luck everyone x

Mel3062 Wed 14-Nov-12 21:03:02

19,16,15 and 11 I got it wrong!x

holldoll Thu 15-Nov-12 09:01:16

So ladies I promised I would not start mentalling but I am! I'm 11 days post trigger and 10 dpo. Internet cheap tests have been getting lighter since 6 days post trigger but have stayed the same for last 2 mornings so I did a superdrug one and got a good line. Now I don't know what to think. Is this a true positive or just the ovitrelle and that the superdrug test is better?
Apologies for a me me me post but need some wise words. Thanks in advance x

Arianrhod Thu 15-Nov-12 09:57:15

Crikey holl, I really hope this is it for you! No really wise words here I'm afraid, but if it were me I'd keep testing until 12dpo and if that line is still good I'd swing into action. However, that's because of my own past experience, and that may not be the same for you. Are you due to have intralipids on a BFP? Perhaps it might be worth emailing/calling Louise to get her take on it?

Pebbles73 Thu 15-Nov-12 10:09:06

If I don't get a positive this month Ari I will go and get the tnf alpha test done, as I will probably be doing more ivf it seems to make good sense to have it done.

Holldoll sorry answer is a bit late now but I tested one month 12 days after trigger shot and it was still coming up with a very faint positive so everyone seems to be different. Good luck.

Good result Mel you must be really pleased. The tnf alpha does indeed have to be done at Harley St in the morning.

It's always such s long wait isn't it Duggs!

Well wishing everyone good luck, as for me don't feel any different to any other month. Just been to dentist and they wanted to do an x-ray so I said a very small chance I could be pregnant to which the dentist replied how exciting. If only she knew, I did say it was most unlikely!!

holldoll Thu 15-Nov-12 10:19:47

No intralipids for me, I will email
Louise but always worried that I'm being mental! It's so frustrating as you all know and not helped by partner who thinks we should give up if the next Cycle fails. Do you guys have any experience of the Internet cheapies? I am tending to believe those. Thank for advice and good luck to you all x x

brownstag Thu 15-Nov-12 12:11:55

I only use internet cheapies and have occasionally had some evaporation lines but they were always grey-looking, not blue. I would say it sounds very promising. For me, certainly, a line at 11dpo would be positive. Fingers crossed!
Does anyone find Cyclogest causes cramping? I'm using it this month, and am finding the cramping annoyingly hope-inspiring.

BellyD Thu 15-Nov-12 12:44:26

holdoll I would definitely email Louise if I were you. It would seem we are all different in terms of how long the ovitrelle sticks around. Have you been taking Pred from ov? Really hope it's a bfp for you.

holldoll Thu 15-Nov-12 12:50:30

Thanks, yes progesterone does make me cramp. It is annoying! Louise has asked me to retest in 2 days. Fingers crossed

Pebbles73 Thu 15-Nov-12 20:26:26

Have everything crossed for you Holldoll, hope the next couple of days pass quickly for you.

Brownstag I found the cyclogest gave me cramp and made my boobs really hurt which is defo very annoying.

Well I gave in as usual and poas when I got home from work and have a very feint line. I am 13 days post trigger shot and 12 days post ovulation. Wishing I hadn't done it now as will no doubt be the trigger shot still in my system......

holldoll Thu 15-Nov-12 20:34:52

Pebbles Louise said today that by12dpo so 13-14dpt it should be a BFP. Fingers crossed for you too x x

Mel3062 Thu 15-Nov-12 20:57:53

Ooh how exciting fingers crossed xx

Pebbles73 Thu 15-Nov-12 20:59:32

Thanks Holldoll very much liking the sound of that but is all pretty border line. Mustn't get hopes up!!

Arianrhod Thu 15-Nov-12 23:18:12

pebbles Hope is the right thing to have!! Fingers firmly crossed smile

BellyD Thu 15-Nov-12 23:19:19

Pebbles don't want to get your hopes up but that does look promising - especially as it wasn't first morning wee. Keeping everything crossed for you x

Arianrhod Fri 16-Nov-12 11:00:40

belly Echoing sue's comment on the pred thread, acupuncture triggered one of my miscarriages for me, that was hanging on and didn't seem to be happening naturally. I was cramping by the end of the evening I had it done (I had had no cramps at all prior to the acupuncture) and full-on bleeding the next morning. Just thought if you don't want to wait, it might help?

Pebbles73 Fri 16-Nov-12 12:41:27

Thanks ladies, tested again this morning and is feinter than yesterday but wider. Yesterday's is very thin but darker so am thinking could still just be from the ovitrelle or an evaporation line. Oh the mentalling!

holldoll Fri 16-Nov-12 13:18:14

I'm with you pebbles- I did a test last night which was stronger. This morning it was about the same. Just going to keep testing with the IC and keeps fingers crossed.
Good luck to you but it does sound promising, it's do hard to feel excited as its all fraught with worry. Guess only time will tell x

Arianrhod Fri 16-Nov-12 13:29:55

I maintain that HPTs are truly the work of the devil!!! Drive you insane, they will .. sad

Still crossing fingers for you both!

holldoll Fri 16-Nov-12 13:32:20

Thanks Ari! Hope things are going ok with you?

Pebbles73 Fri 16-Nov-12 13:33:19

Wishing you loads of luck Holl, your sounds very promising. Well when I just went to the toilet there was light pink discharge (sorry for the tmi!) so think af is on its way and the lined must be from the ovitrelle. That's shady you get for testing early, I should know better by now!

Hope everyone ok and looking forward to the weekend, I am off to see Breaking Dawn tonight do should hopefully take my mind off things.

Arianrhod Fri 16-Nov-12 13:42:05

Oh bl**dy hell pebbles, that evil witch should've buggered off at Hallowe'en, didn't she get the message? I hope it's not, but if it is, on to TNF-alpha testing? Maybe that holds the answer? I forget, did you get yours and DH's DQa tested? Just wondered if that might be a factor.

Me ... nothing doing here right now, waiting for follie scan with Mr S on Monday in Harley St, at CD13 it's the latest I've been in my cycle. Have to try to pin OH down for some SWI this weekend I guess (oh shame on me for the lack of enthusiasm, how rubbish am I?!). I'm curious to see whether not taking agnus castus this cycle will have had any effect on my follies, given that it's apparently supposed to block the effect of things like Letrozole and Gonal-f .. whoops ... blush . If my follies are exactly the same as always I'll know that's yet another old wives tale, and will start taking it again!

Pebbles73 Fri 16-Nov-12 13:47:20

Good luck Ari and let us know how you get on. Hope it makes a difference without the agnus castus.

BellyD Fri 16-Nov-12 14:54:19

Still feeling positive for you pebbles and holldoll. Don't want to add to the mentalling but I had light pink dc and so it could be implantation bleeding. Test again tomorrow is the best bet.

Thanks for tip re acupuncture Ari. I went yesterday and for reflexology today so hopefully I won't have to wait too long although part of me doesn't want it to end as it will probably be the last time I have a baby inside me - does that sound really deranged? Best of luck for Monday. Hope you have some big juicy follies. X

lemonsherbet Fri 16-Nov-12 16:19:28

pebbles and holldoll another person keeping their fingers crossed for you. We could do with some luck on the board and I am feeling we are due some BFP.

BellyD hope everything gets a move on for you (I mean that in the nicest possible way). But I do understand what you mean about wanting to stay pregnant.

Ari our supplement trailblazer will be interesting to find out the effect of agnus catus

holldoll Fri 16-Nov-12 16:22:15

Oh pebbles, fingers crossed it could be implantation. I'm worried as I had this last month where had faint positives but got AF. It was either the ovitrelle or a chemical.
I hope tomorrow brings some good news and its not AF.
Keeping everything crossed. Ari I hope follies are looking hot, I know the feeling regarding planning the SWI. Luckily my partner is generally up for it but I must say this has taken all the spontaneity out the event!
Hope you all have good wk ends, going off to mental at my mums for a few days!!

Mel3062 Fri 16-Nov-12 19:29:11

Good luck ladies!!!! X

brownstag Fri 16-Nov-12 20:00:36

Good luck with all those possible BFPs everyone, and good luck Ari! Hopefully implantation Pebbles. Those thin but darker lines are usually where you haven't had the test exactly flat so it collects at the bottom. So the lighter but wider isn't necesarily fainter than the previous day.
I took agnus castus for a year or two in total, first for about 9 months after I came off the pill years ago before I had DS, and then again after coming off the pill 2 years ago. Nothing dramatic to report though my cycles did get gradually more regular. I've never taken it with any treatment though.

duggs1976 Sat 17-Nov-12 09:36:53

Hope testing goes ok today ladies! A quick Q for a v good friend of mine. She is 45 has a DS already 5 yrs old, been diagnosed with high TNF Alpha and recommended humira before her IVF round at ARGC. Question is humira is for IVF patients not patients trying to conceive naturally right? Is that because once u have injection u shouldn't get pregnant because they don't know affect of humira on fetus? Waiting 6 mths for her @ 45 is a long time - personally I'd have the injections- shag like mad and have IVF as soon as poss but wanted to get some input from u folk?

Mel3062 Sat 17-Nov-12 09:58:51

Mr s said for me to have humira if I test positive for alpha and I'm trying using just gonal f? Then if that fails its then onto ivf after that? X

Pebbles73 Sat 17-Nov-12 10:00:50

Have you tested again Holl? Fingers crossed for you? I haven't bothered as pretty sure this will be af although it seems to be dragging itself out. Have gone from pink spotting to watery brown now but still not full af yet. Just for info I read on a forum somewhere that the cheap Sainsburys ones are notorious for evap lines so make sure you avoid them!!
Not sure if I should carry on with steroids until I get proper af?

I don't know that much about it but generally what I have seen is that humira is normally to help ivf patients. Mr S did say to me tough that a couple of ladies he treated with humira got pregnant naturally while waiting for their ivf cycle. I am I pretty sure you have to wait to try as they then do another blood test to see if the humira worked.

I am going to be taking a break now as if af shows up properly we will be away to Thailand for Xmas and don't want to be worrying about being pregnant or not. Will get the tnf alpha test done and see what that brings up then on to ivf after Xmas. I have to say though that I really am feeling like I will never be pregnant again..,

Ari couldn't agree more about the hpt's!!

Arianrhod Sat 17-Nov-12 12:20:50

pebbles big hugs .. I feel exactly the same way, that I'll never be properly pregnant again. Feels like my third miscarriage, before I saw Mr S, where the baby got to 9 weeks, was my last real chance and that my eggs are just too damn old now.

duggs Hopefully choccy will be along shortly to answer but remember she had humira and she's not doing IVF .. I understood it to be ok for natural TTC as well? I'm not sure, but that was what I thought?

/waves to everyone, feeling rather meh about it all again today.

Pebbles73 Sat 17-Nov-12 16:08:06

Big hugs back to you Ari, it's hard trying to stay positive all the time isn't it? I think sometimes you just have to give into it a bit, feel a bit sorry for yourself/have a good cry and then move on. Well be looking to see how you get on Monday, hopefully you will have a good result making you feel a bit more positive and ready to go again.

ChoccyPud Sat 17-Nov-12 16:25:42

You called?! ;)

Right. In no particular order:

- humira stays in your system for a few months, it's not a permanent fix, so I wouldn't wait to ttc/undergo IVF afterwards, subject to other meds or issues that require delay or lead in period.
- there's no research about safety of humira with pregnancy but it's used commonly as I understand it and most importantly, I trust that I wouldn't have been given something and told to crack on ttc if it wasn't safe to do so.
- you can't be on any immuno meds when you have the TNF alpha test, I believe, as they'd potentially give skewed results. I was off everything when I had my TNF alpha tested so that was fine, but I don't know if you have to stop Pred or Hydroxy and if so for how long before testing if you aren't on a break when you get tested.
- Duggs bear in mind that I'm on Hydroxy so had a "natural" delay/ lead in period of six weeks after getting TNF alpha results and before starting to ttc while the Hydroxy built up again.

Hope this helps!

Good luck to the testers... I feel like a bit of an interloper here, but am lurking and thinking of you all smile

duggs1976 Sat 17-Nov-12 18:06:34

Ok thanks ladies, have passed into her! How r u finding hydroxy? R u on hydroxy alone - no more pred? X

holldoll Sat 17-Nov-12 18:20:30

Thanks for all the good luck messages.
Pebbles - yes did test and it seems to be getter a bit darker but I'm only day 25 of a 26-28 day cycle. Just trying to keep busy and not stress which is soooo hard.
It does sound more implantation than AF?? I've been having loads of cramps too. I can def see why you are taking a break but I'm keeping fingers crossed for you that you won't need too.

Thanks again to everyone for support and hope having a good wk end x

holldoll Sat 17-Nov-12 18:28:13

Meant to day that using superdrug as seem
Better than FRER, and IC as these are cheaper for mentalling.
I agree Ari too it's do hard to keep positive. There is no excitement anymore, no naivety to it not like when I first got pregnant and just rolled with it as knew no better.
I don't know anything about humira so can't offer any experience.

Sorry for double post but couldn't scroll back up x x

brownstag Sun 18-Nov-12 08:31:35

Duggs, I am certainly assuming that Humira is for patients trying naturally too or else why would Mr S be offering this test now?; not many of us are having IVF.
Had what I'm pretty sure is an evaporation line this morning, 9dpo, but took 10mg pred just in case.
Ari, what dose of agnus castus are you taking? At the point when I stopped taking mine (this time last year) it was becoming increasingly difficult to get a decent strength because of new EU laws about herbal medicines. I took 1000mg.

brownstag Sun 18-Nov-12 11:39:05

Duggs, also meant to say, do you think your friend mistook waiting 6 weeks for 6 months?, having read what Choccypud said.

duggs1976 Sun 18-Nov-12 13:12:17

Hey guys - hope u testers are doing ok this morning? I think as she is new to all this she is nervous taking a drug that hasn't been "officially" marked as safe for pregnancy - but as we know with all our drugs plenty of people have conceived after taking humira whilst waiting for IVF so reckon she should have injection and try to conceive naturally as her chances without it are minimal. Thanks ladies. . grin

duggs1976 Sun 18-Nov-12 13:12:56

Ahhh I see what u mean brown perhaps that's a good point ! I'll check

brownstag Sun 18-Nov-12 17:01:29

... Just been having a Googling-random-fertility-articles-in-journals afternoon, as everyone's out! I think I must get myself some phytoestrogens. What kind are people taking and how much?
I'm vegan and already eat tonnes of soya; in fact before reading those articles I was thinking of giving it up for a bit, having read lots of contradictory reports about its effect on fertility. I wonder if the secret is, as in the studies, only to take it after ovulation, whereas maybe continuous consumption leads to the opposite effect.

brownstag Mon 19-Nov-12 08:38:46

Another evaporation line, another 10mg pred. 10mg is fine, I think, side effects-wise, so far. Though how it will combine with DHEA to make a mega moustache, I'm not sure.

duggs1976 Mon 19-Nov-12 09:49:45

pebbles and holl have you tested today? Xx

brownstag Mon 19-Nov-12 12:02:40

Duggs, what kind and what strength of phytoestrogens were you taking? and at what point in the cycle?

Arianrhod Mon 19-Nov-12 13:05:47

Hi ladies -

pebbles and holl, any news for us?

brown Can I ask why you feel you need phytoestrogens? Do you mean like soy isoflavones (which appears to mimic the effects of clomid)? Certainly having taken it last cycle, albeit I had little chance of getting pg due to OH being away at the critical time, I had no appreciable side effects so would definitely consider taking them again short-term if I weren't doing SO.

Agnus castus - I have always taken 2 x 500mg capsules until I stopped taking them this last cycle (when researching soy isoflavones made me realise AC works against SO fertility meds, including soy isoflavones). I know what you mean about the EU ruling affecting herbal supplements, but fortunately the supplier I used was ok until very recently and even after that I found another, so I have lots sitting in the cupboard not being taken right now!

duggs how are you doing? I know my memory is pretty rubbish but aren't you/weren't you due to be testing?

choccy You're def. not an interloper, you're a very helpful source of knowledge and of course always welcome here smile I think I'm right in that we're all still pretty much TTC here whereas it feels like almost everyone on the Pred thread is pregnant; while I am honestly so pleased for them all for me personally it does feel like this is more of a 'home' right now.

belly How are you doing now? I know you won't be feeling good, but hopefully you are doing ok?

So, saw Mr S for my follie scan this morning, wondering whether not taking AC this cycle will have had a difference. I had 2 follies 25mm and 22mm on one side, and one 14mm on the other, with lining at 8.3mm. The smaller follie is too small to be much use, but Mr S seemed happy and thinks this is the best I've responded on SO. However, it has occurred to me - is this right? This is the latest in my cycle I've ever seen him - I usually ovulate naturally CD14 and today is CD13, I usually see him CD11 or even sometimes CD10. Looking back through my records my follies have been 19mm/16mm/10mm on CD11 before (and similar on another cycle) - well don't follies grow between 1-3mm per day? So wouldn't that be about right anyway? confused Seems like my response this cycle is pretty much like other cycles, surely? Not that I'll care if it works, obviously!!, but it also means the results of my experiment with not taking the AC is still uncertain too. I'll continue with not taking it for now, I think, since it definitely is known to have a hormonal balancing effect and with the SO meds they actively influence hormones so I can see why you wouldn't want to be taking both together. As I've said before - who knows?!

/waves to lemon, mel and anyone else that I've missed!

Arianrhod Mon 19-Nov-12 13:07:16

Sorry, brown I meant to say, if it's of any interest - the soy isoflavones I took last cycle, I took CD3-7 50mg/100mg/150mg/200mg/200mg - I was going for a better quality of eggs rather than a greater quantity, hence why CD3-7.

brownstag Mon 19-Nov-12 14:09:18

Ah, no I was thinking of taking it for a different reason, improved implantation.
Although this is in IVF, I thought it couldn't hurt to try it in a natural cycle.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15589851
http://www.fertilityneighborhood.com/content/in_the_news/archive_1126.aspx
I must admit it does sound like your latest cycle seems similar to your others. I noticed once before that Mr S hadn't factored in the cycle day when he told me something about my follicles, but I can't remember what that was now.

Pebbles73 Mon 19-Nov-12 14:13:50

I haven't bothered testing again as seem to having af but is bit of a wtf cycle. I have just generally had some brown spotting that is really bitty
(not sure how else to explain it!) and then early yesterday when I went to the toilet I had a blob that came out that was really kind of tissuey. Sorry for the details!!

Brown hope you dont mind me asking why do you think it is still an evaporation line if you have had a positive test twice?

Also can I ask what phytoestrogens are?

Ari good result on your follies although I agree that seeing as you have gone later in the month then they would be around the same size as usual.

Is weird not being straight back on super ov treatment this month as that has become the norm! Will be nice taking a break from the steroids though!

Waves to everyone else.

brownstag Mon 19-Nov-12 14:15:19

Sorry, that should be:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15589851
www.fertilityneighborhood.com/content/in_the_news/archive_1126.aspx
The second one is quite good at explaining the possible mechanism by which they work. Although how the ' competition' theory would work with ripening follicles, I'm not sure. You would have thought they would need the direct effects of oestrodial, but what do I know?

brownstag Mon 19-Nov-12 14:19:08

Pebbles, that does sound a strange AF. Wouldn't it be full on by now? Maybe there's still hope?
My 'positive test' is really only a very faint grey line, only observable by the truly obsessed, namely me. I've had them before and they never lead to anything. sad

holldoll Mon 19-Nov-12 18:14:41

Hi all thanks for the interest.
Have tested again and it is darker but I am getti b a lot of cramps ( not normally a crampy person) so hoping its judg further implantation not my AF coming.
Pebbles - sounds a bit weird? Sure it's not implantation?
Brown - good luck, yours sounds promising. Are you using IC or FRER? I found the IC were giving me funny lines at start.
Probably going to lay low for a bit, desperately trying to keep my sane head on and just get on with it without mentalling too much.

I will lurk and keep my fingers crossed for you guys x x

Havingkittens Mon 19-Nov-12 18:49:00

Hello, I don't post very much these days but thought I'd pop my head in to see how you're all doing.

I'm so sorry to hear about your mc BellyD.

Pebbles and HollDoll, both of your situations sound like they could well be implantation. When I got my BFP I had pinkish discharge and then a brief watery red, then brown bleed. I also had a lot of cramping which I then became convinced was AF coming to piss on my fireworks. I'm now nervously awaiting my anomaly scan on Friday so needless to say, she never showed up!

Ari, I understand why you don't visit the pred thread much. Actually, it seems like nobody does anymore! It's very quiet on there. I feel a bit homeless as the April Antenatal Club thread has been going for 4 months so I feel a bit weird just turning up on that, but it seems like there's nobody to speak to on the pred thread anymore!

BellyD Mon 19-Nov-12 19:12:21

holldoll I think that the cramping is a good thing and definitely combined with a darker line. Fingers crossed for you. Also holding out plenty of hope for Pebbles and Brownstag.

Ari your follie scan sounds promising. Know what you mean about being a few days later for your scan and the size difference. Did they give you the trigger shot at NLC?

Having Kittens good to hear from you and will be thinking of you on Friday. It is another big milestone but hopefully all will be ok and you will be officially halfway.

I am doing ok. Was very weepy yesterday as I thought the bleeding had started but seems to have stopped again today. On another odd note a friend of mine has been prescribed Pred for another health condition and she couldn't get it from the pharmacy today because apparently there is a new type that people have been reacting even more weirdly too. There was a doctors/pharmicists meeting today (not sure which) to decide whether to carry on prescribing the new version. Anyone else heard anything about this?

Pebbles73 Mon 19-Nov-12 20:11:27

I did a test this evening just to be doubly sure was af and it is a definite negative. I guess the first two feint positives must have been down to the dodgy Sainsburys tests and af is just being weird this month.

Holl glad to hear your line is getting stronger and will keep everything crossed for you.

Brown I think we are all pretty obsessed when it comes to hpt's so you are in good company! wink

Great to hear from you Kittens and I wish you lots of luck for your scan. Let us know how you get on. Have you heard how Jaffa is getting on?

I hope things start to move on for you soon Belly.

I will probably be keeping a low profile as I will be off the ttc wagon now until January but will lurk to see how everyone is doing.

holldoll Mon 19-Nov-12 21:29:21

I'm sorry pebbles, that's rubbish. Enjoy your time off and have a relaxing break although I know how hard it is break from this merry go round.
Ari - it does sound very similar to your other cycles - good luck this one though.
Belly - thinking of you. It's a hard time but at least here we all understand.
Kittens - thanks for the info,I never normally get cramps soum hoping its a good sign but we will see. Hope your scan goes well.

I've emailed Louise to get more drugs but now feel like I've jinxed it. Mental
As I said earlier going to lurk for a bit but good luck to everyone

brownstag Tue 20-Nov-12 07:46:33

Holldoll, that sounds very exciting! Really sorry to hear that Pebbles. Mine was also negative today but I wasn't too hopeful. But it does get on my wick that evaporation lines always seem to appear 9 or 10dpo! Maybe I just don't peer so hard on the other days!
Pebbles, phytoestrogens are oestrogen-like substances contained in some plants, soya being a primary one, but also clover, flax, etc. Their effects are complex, because they can act as oestrogens, or block the effects of natural oestrogen.
There's been a debate about the effects of soya for years. Countries where they eat lots of it, like Japan, have lower rates of breast and prostate cancer, maybe because of soya consumption, yet others say genistein and daidzein (2 phytoestrogens) should be avoided in breast cancer. Some sources say they reduce fertility. But there are several studies showing they help, when used in certain ways, like the two I found.
Those two studies have one using it in the follicular phase, and one in the luteal phase. I also found another showing it thickened the endometrium when used in the follicular phase when using Clomid and may combat Clomid's antioestrogenic effects.
Not all the studies are using the same phytoestrogens, though.
ari, do you have any studies into the use of phytoestrogens as an aromatase inhibitor (days 3-7)? I had searched for this before but it seemed all anecdotal, just lots of fertility forum threads. Although the trick is to use the right key terms when looking at scholarly articles and maybe I'm not using them. The world opened up when I stopped searching for 'Clomid' and instead for 'Clomiphene'!

brownstag Tue 20-Nov-12 07:54:22

P.S. I get my AMH results this week. Terrified that it'll be dreadful and everything a waste of time.

brownstag Tue 20-Nov-12 09:27:27

BellyD, I've just emailed my chemist friend for the low-down on the dodgy pred!

BellyD Tue 20-Nov-12 09:58:24

Pebbles and Brownstag sorry to hear your news. A holiday sounds the perfect thing for you, Pebbles. Brownstag fingers crossed for your AMH. I never know what is more relevant, your fsh or your AMH? My fsh is usually rubbish but last time I had my AMH tested it was fairly ok for my age. Does that just mean I am getting pregnant with bad quality eggs? It will be interesting to know what your chemist friend says.

Hello to all the lurkers.

duggs1976 Tue 20-Nov-12 09:58:27

Right I've caught up. Sorry pebblessad
I tested this morning BFN. Is 11 dpo for me today and I used first response early blaaa not even a shadow to mental over just stark white!! This is my 6th SO round. I'll chuck one more in for good luck in Dec before I head off to OZ. I'm not overally impressed with SO. It's rubbish I reckon for people who ovulate normally anyway - more follies doesn't mean anything -( someone tell me in wrong and throw some encouraging/amazing stats this way pls) wink

I used soy isoflavines way back when brown and reckon 2013 I might start again.

brownstag Tue 20-Nov-12 10:35:52

Duggs, sorry, I agree about SO. I suppose because I think it doesn't get to the root of the problem, and although I'm not sure what our problem is exactly, it isn't lack of ovulation. It also alters other things, so maybe it's a step away from conceiving, who knows? One thing I am sure of is that I can't afford any more. I thought Clomid and DHEA would be a cheaper alternative but I'm going back to mother nature from now on. I've also dropped my DHEA dosage as I can't put up with the beard of boils any longer. Wrinkles and acne are just an impossible combination.

brownstag Tue 20-Nov-12 10:36:29

And sorry to hear about the BFN. I didn't realise we were both 11dpo today.

Havingkittens Tue 20-Nov-12 14:47:20

Oh bugger! Sorry to hear of the BFNs sad. Pebbles, I really thought that was going to be good news this time. Damn.

Arianrhod Tue 20-Nov-12 15:15:04

Hi all .. Just a quickie as I'm supposed to be on a conf call at the mo (yawn) ... pebbles and duggs, sorry to hear of the BFNs, what a bugger sad

I do wonder about the benefit of SO for those who ovulate normally too duggs, the only thing I can think of that makes it worth while doing is that you may have more than one chance to get pregnant each month, ie 2 or more follies' worth of eggs. Having said that, even though I did technically get pregnant twice so far, doing SO it hasn't helped me worth a damn to actually get a baby, so still not sure about it. Guess it's my only real hope, given that I can't do IVF, so for now (although the cost is killing me) I have to keep going.

brown I sympathise about the DHEA. I have to say I was rather nervous that I wasn't monitored while taking it and always wondered whether I was doing more damage than good taking it. I think it would be excellent to take if you could be constantly monitored for DHEA-S levels, but I did 5 months of it and saw no difference in pregnancy levels so guess it wasn't for me.

brown I understood AMH to be a better judge of your levels of eggs than the standard LH/FSH/E2 tests, but even so I have read of ladies with apparently rubbish AMH levels still going on to get pregnant successfully, so who knows? I've never had my AMH tested, have thought about it loads of times but then thought it might be such a downer for me if it doesn't look good that it would probably tip me over the edge to give up. So I haven't bothered thus far.

I don't have any info on phytoestrogens, but I'm very interested in what you're finding out brown, keep us posted!

kittens Good to see you on here .. I do still read the pred thread every day, but I just can't contribute anything so taking something of a back seat on there. I'm so darned chuffed for all the ladies for whom this regime has worked so successfully, but given that it hasn't for me personally (yet), I can't really say anything helpful/useful on there at the moment. You can always have a home on here if you want one smile

holl Sounding really positive (if you'll excuse the unintended pun), lots of luck and fingers crossed it carries on being positive!!

belly Sorry to hear your body is taking its time about getting with the plan, is it worth having another acupuncture session? Did you ask your acupuncturist if he/she could explicitly trigger a miscarriage? That's what I did with mine, and boy did she! Very interested to hear about the pred, do you know what kind of 'weird' it was that people found they were experiencing on this other pred?

/waves to everyone

Mel3062 Tue 20-Nov-12 18:11:49

Sorry about the bfns sad xx

cailincusp Wed 21-Nov-12 13:04:21

Just joining here as Duggs kindly sent me the thread having asked the question on my behalf!! Thanks for all super advice on humira... wanted to asked Choccypud how you felt when taking Humira and did you have any side effects... I was told humira stayed in my system for 6 months and then my TNF's rebalance again but anyhow it is months rather than weeks. I am pleased to hear you don;t think it has any effect on subsequent pg's and really looks like you act fast whilst it is in the system in actual fact

Mel3062 Wed 21-Nov-12 18:48:25

Just to say welcome callincusp x

ChoccyPud Wed 21-Nov-12 20:09:24

Just the rather aggressive allergic reaction rash I've described previously...!

brownstag Thu 22-Nov-12 16:58:15

Totally devastated. AMH results back and they couldn't have been worse. 1.5, in the very low/undetectable region. The mystery is solved, and I never thought the answer would be as banal as that. And my FSH was still in the ideal region! I think that's going to be it for us now as there's no point throwing good money after bad. sad

Arianrhod Thu 22-Nov-12 17:38:17

brown So sorry to hear of your results .. this is exactly why I'm not getting my AMH tested. With not great FSH I'm fairly sure my AMH won't be great either. But you know, if you read the Fertility Friends forums there are many stories of women with lower AMH than yours still getting pregnant. Medical science doesn't know everything, clearly. Will you definitely give up on this, or could you perhaps take a little time to think about it? Big hugs to you and whatever you decide remember we're here for you.

Arianrhod Thu 22-Nov-12 17:48:52

brown I just did a quick google on AMH 1.5 and you know, there are LOADS of posts from women who had this or lower and still went on to have a baby, either ICSI, IVF or even naturally. I found this part of a longer post and thought it might help you a bit:

/quote
Plus, as others have mentioned, AMH indicates numbers and not quality so if you are 35 or 40 plus your AMH will be lower.  That is entirely NORMAL and any 40 year old conceiving naturally is likely to have low AMH.  The key is egg quality and, as with everything, some people may be luckier than others in terms of how well their eggies age.  But there ARE things you can do to make sure you produce the healthiest eggs possible and give yourself the best possible chance.
 
Good luck to all and try not to obsess about your AMH!   
/end quote

Havingkittens Thu 22-Nov-12 17:52:34

Brownstag, if it helps at all I had my AMH levels tested in May and they came back 2.04, so also in the low/undetectable range. I was devastated, despondent, hopeless etc. 2 Months later I got pregnant.

brownstag Thu 22-Nov-12 17:59:08

Thanks ari, I appreciate that. My dear little boy kind of understood why I was crying this evening and he drew me two cards, one of a baby and the other of a tray of eggs! I had to laugh.
You know there are two scales for AMH, and my one was the one using larger numbers so 1.5 is probably virtually nothing on the other one. Plus it would have been artifically high because of the DHEA! Christ knows what it'd be like normally!
Obviously I will think about it more but there is a little bit of me that is almost relieved, to be free of this enormous obsession ...

brownstag Thu 22-Nov-12 18:00:46

havingkittens, really? Wow, that does give me some hope. Which scale were they using? On this one 40 to 60 is 'ideal'.

Havingkittens Thu 22-Nov-12 18:10:21

This is how mine reads;

0 - 3.07 - low/undetectable
3.08 -21.97 - low
21.98 - 40.03 - satisfactory
40.04 - 67.9 - Optimal

Arianrhod Thu 22-Nov-12 18:18:21

There you go, same scale as kittens. Who gives us 'oldies' all hope smile

Arianrhod Thu 22-Nov-12 18:21:52

And remember, DHEA doesn't affect AMH - AMH is quantity of eggs not quality, DHEA doesn't give you more eggs, it (sometimes) improves the quality of eggs you have.

brownstag Thu 22-Nov-12 18:58:13

DHEA definitely does increase AMH; there are lots of studies showing that, with graphs smile. Which makes my results all the more horrendous.
How old are you Kittens?

Havingkittens Thu 22-Nov-12 19:03:07

I'm a couple of months off 43.

lemonsherbet Thu 22-Nov-12 19:34:05

brown I thought AMH were meant to guide how aggressively they treat you. I know your levels are low and that is quite devastating but give yourself some time to think about it. Mr S encouraged me to get my AMH levels done and I was gutted when the result came back, but he said they were OK. What did Mr S say about yours? It took me at least a couple of days to get my head around the fact I did not have the fertility of a teenager!

I think it was Choccy who appeared and gave her expert view on my results. Remember it just means that your stores are low, but it only takes one egg.

Arianrhod Thu 22-Nov-12 19:42:13

hmm Ok, I didn't know that about AMH. But I still wouldn't put too much store in the AMH value brown, honestly.

Arianrhod Thu 22-Nov-12 19:42:44

I meant I didn't know that about DHEA. Can't type worth a damn tonight.

brownstag Thu 22-Nov-12 20:02:54

Lemon, I didn't get mine done by Mr S, but a company called DuoFertility. I rang their fertility advisor to discuss the results and she seemed surprised there was so much discrepancy between my FSH (7.8) and my AMH. So it might be worth retesting. Also my results had been delayed as there was some kind of problem and they had had to send them to a different lab. She was going to find out what that problem was and whether it might have affected the results.
Incidentally, she said normal for a woman of my age was 3 to 9.
But I also googled AMH and endo and find crap AMH is highly correlated with stage of endo, of which I have the worst stage.
Assuming these results are right, I don't think I can face the panic and desparation of ttc in the face of dwindling egg supplies ... knowing I really need IVF and can't afford it.

jaffajiffy Fri 23-Nov-12 05:46:55

Hi there. Old poster here lurking from time to time. I wanted to encourage you, brown, that a low amh isn't the end. Mine was 0.67 (same scale as kittens) in sep 2010 and I have conceived twice since then, both times via super ov. I was devastated when that result came through, so I understand your concern, but both mr S and my acupuncturist were not concerned at all.

Wishing each of you on here well x

Mel3062 Fri 23-Nov-12 06:29:03

Think ill go buy some dhea but doesn't mr s not rate it? How much should you take?
I'm sure the levels change I remeber being told I was premenopausal but then the next month it was better as it wasn't long after mc.
Those ladies who have had the tnf test, how early in themorning can you have blood taken? Is it just 1 tube? I live in York but hubby goes to Harley st once a fortnight but leaves at 1.30 am so don't know if I could get someone to take blood that early then him drop it off at 7 am or if it won't be any good. I can see me just going to London again :/ why can't they do it at Surrey?
Another tough time on this page this week so wishing you all a lovely weekend, hugs and strength in whatever you all decide xx waves

brownstag Fri 23-Nov-12 07:23:10

Thank you everyone for your support. All night I was tossing and turning dreaming about AMH.
mel, mine come from Vitasunn, they take a couple of weeks to arrive from the US. Most studies use 75mg, but I started on 50mg to see what happened. On 75mg I have bad acne, including on the scalp and very itchy, increased sex drive, vivid dreams, increased fertile CM, better sleep and a feeling of well-being. I probably only had all these benefits because I was actually premenopausal I now realise!
Yes, I think it's about 4 or 5 stops on one line from Charing Cross to Regent's Park (Bakerloo?), then you turn left, cross over one small road and the next road on your left is Harley Street. The tube part takes about 10 or 15 mins and the walk about ten mins tops.
What I don't understand is that if there's a correlation between reduced ovarian reserve, low AMH and endometriosis, why when I google endometriosis and early menopause nothing comes up?

BellyD Fri 23-Nov-12 10:00:16

Brownstag I know you are disappointed with your results but a friend of mine who is in the same situation as us conceived her daughter naturally after finding out her AMH was 0.something. It definitely can happen. Also panic over about the dodgy Pred from my post a couple of days ago. I saw my friend yesterday and she is taking suppository ones, so not the same type as us.

Havingkittens Fri 23-Nov-12 10:24:32

Brownstag, I think you should wait until you get a chance to have a chat with Mr S before getting too worried. I really was in despair about mine and made my own assumptions based on the ranges quoted. All of my results were in the lower end of what they should be, or in the case of FSH, higher. I then gave myself a talking to and reminded myself that I was a Make up artist trying to draw my own conclusions from my results and what I really needed was a doctor, at the very least! Mr S was far less concerned than I was and put me on a combination of Tamoxifen and Gonal-F, which worked.

brownstag Fri 23-Nov-12 11:27:01

Thanks BellyD and HavingKittens. I will talk to Mr S again. I now have a vague date for my laparascopy, early January, so I will have that, and then talk to Mr S again. I am hoping to get another FSH test at my doctor's on Monday. What I don't understand is why I've responsed reasonably well to letrozole before, 1 follie on 5mg and 4 on 7.5mg. Shouldn't I be a 'poor responder' with such rubbish AMH?

lemonsherbet Fri 23-Nov-12 11:32:11

hi brown been having a google look. Apparently AMH is very temperature sensitive so needs to be transported/analysed in the right way. In view of the problems they had with your sample could this be the cause of your result?

AMH levels tend to be lower in people with endo but also fluctate eg in response to surgery. Your FSH is good and some places put more stock in this than the AMH. You are responding well to SO which I would take as a good sign.

lemonsherbet Fri 23-Nov-12 11:34:33

also recommend a chat with Mr S, or could you telephone Louise and see what she says

brownstag Fri 23-Nov-12 11:57:39

Thanks Lemon, I did wonder about the sample, but I thought I was clutching at straws. I sent it on a Thursday and as far as I know it wasn't analysed until the following Wednesday. I don't know how long it took in transit; knowing Royal Mail lately it could have taken several days first class.
Thanks so much everyone; it really helps to have you here when I'm feeling so low.

LJ71 Fri 23-Nov-12 20:17:39

Hi everyone

Just a quick post to say I've not been on here for ages as we've been mega stressed and busy at home, with us both starting new jobs, moving house tomorrow and my dh has been really poorly. All of which have led to us not dtd at the right time - so new news at all.

Big hugs BellyD - we went through our mc's together in July, so sorry you are going through it again.

In some ways, I'm focussing on moving and sorting out my financial situation, and its been quite nice not to worry about conceiving. It may well be time for us to stop trying now anyway. If we do, we'll just try one more - 7 mcs and the cost make that a definite.

Brown - I'll pm you xxxxx

duggs1976 Sun 25-Nov-12 08:19:36

Just posted on Pred thread - 6th SO cycle over and no luck. No natural pregnancy since starting dr s programme in July 2011 sad going it alone in 2013 - NK cells were normal in may according to dr g so don't think dr s has solution for me! Will still pop in here ...wishing you the very best of luck ladies x

lemonsherbet Sun 25-Nov-12 13:06:43

duggs sorry that 6th SO cycle did not work. I hope you do not leave this thread. It will not be the same without you even if you are not continuing with Mr S, we do share alot of other info on here.

Belly How is the backache going? any news on the repeat scan?

Holl hope everything is going OK feel free to post

brown ari hope you are having a good weekend.

Waves to anyone have missed

holldoll Sun 25-Nov-12 18:09:23

Duggs - good luck in 2013

Lemon - thanks for asking. Ok at mo, just waiting and trying not to wish time away. Scan not till 7/12/12 so 2 weeks away still. interestingly I am not mentalling anywhere near as much I have previously so I am feeling in a much better place this time.
Going back to lurking again!

hope everyone has had a good weekend

Mel3062 Mon 26-Nov-12 06:01:51

Well looks like the so cycle no 6 hasn't worked for me either got bfn so expect af thurs. it's so heartbreaking sad now debating when to take month off steroids. Don't think ill make it dec as it makes sense to have scan when I go for tnf alpha test what do you think ladies? Do you have to totally stop trying for a month? X

brownstag Mon 26-Nov-12 10:29:30

Sorry to hear of your BFN, Mel. And good luck with going au naturel Duggs and everyone else with the treatment.
I'm also probably not going to be on here much now. I've moved from being stunned by my AMH result to realising that it does explain everything, so for me, the mystery is solved. I'm still going to retest, still going to have my laparoscopy and also see Mr S one last time in January, but really I think that is it now. I realise now that it was less a wonder that I'm not currently conceiving than that I ever had a child at all. It always has made me feel a bit guilty that I was trying for no. 2 when so many of you are still trying for no. 1.
My last little 'research gift' to any of you who are still trying to work out what's wrong is that of homocysteine.
Google it: it might be relevant, who knows? High levels of it are implicated in infertility, miscarriage and all manner of pregnancy problems. The good thing about it is that it's theoretically easily fixable, with specific vitamins. I know a lot of you are veggie and vegetarians/vegans have higher levels of homocysteine. I read a whole book on it by Patrick Holford (for anyone who's read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre, alarm bells may start ringing at the mention of his name, but it is a real phenomenon, honestly!)

Arianrhod Mon 26-Nov-12 12:46:19

Morning ladies ... So sorry to hear that your 6th cycles haven't worked, duggs and mel. It's a bugger to keep on going when even ovulation support medication doesn't seem to make a difference.

brown Interesting about high homocysteine being an issue - being one of those who is MTHFR homozygous I am already taking l-methylfolate which brings down high homocysteine levels. Hope your lap gives you some hope, I do understand where you're coming from.

/waves to everyone, hope you're all doing well.

BellyD Mon 26-Nov-12 19:32:00

Duggs and Mel so sorry that the SO has not done the trick for you. Let's hope going au naturel does the trick for you in 2013 Duggs it has got to be better for your body. Will keep everything crossed for you. Brownstag I hope that having a retest of your AMH and your lap provide positive news and that Mr S has words of wisdom when you see him in Jan. You should not feel the slightest bit guilty about wanting to complete your family when some of us are trying to have our first, you are just at a different but equally important stage of this difficult journey.

Thanks for your kind words LJ - I very much hope that next time everything works out for you.

Went for another scan today. The fetus has shrunk but the pregnancy sac has shown no sign of collapsing so they advised to sit it out for another two weeks to see if anything happens. If not they will probably recommend an ERPC. I am as happy as I can be with that advice. I would love to have it all resolved well before Christmas so that we can just enjoy ourselves and start to plan what we will try in 2013.

Waves to all, lurkers included x

brownstag Tue 27-Nov-12 14:25:53

I really hope things get a move on for you, Belly.
Well, I just had my repeat FSH test results from my GP's. 9.7. It was taken on day 1, not sure if that makes a difference, but my last one was too, in January, when it was 7.8. Obviously things are going downhill rapidly, but still not too horrendous? They considered it 'normal, no action', anyway. Does anyone else have non-correlating FSH and AMH results?

Arianrhod Tue 27-Nov-12 14:42:23

brown Bear in mind that FSH levels can (and do) fluctuate to a degree from month to month. As far as I recall 9.7 is still a good level for FSH, mine is much worse ... !

Breezyweezy Tue 27-Nov-12 18:22:09

Delurking to say, Brown, my FSH and AMH results are non-correlating too. Had them done on day 1 back in June and results were very low/untetectable AMH 0.63 with FSH 5.6. Total shock to me (something that I am still finding hard to believe almost 6 months later). Mr S was taken aback too as I am 34 so not the result he, or I, expected. He suggested SO, which so far has been a complete waste of time and money, but I am just starting month 4 on a higher dose of letrozole after a crap month 3 (1 follicle after 2 the previous 2 months on 5mg), so I will try to remain open-minded and positive that it could happen - yeah right! I find the whole SO thing such a chore as it is a nightmare to get an appointment for a scan on the day you need to go.
Also as an aside, I went to a few initial consults for IVF and one was with Dr Gorgy. He told me that there is a connection between low AMH and NKC activity but I haven't found much information about this on Dr Google. Interesting since I have v high NKCs. He wanted me to have futher NKC testing done, but he overwhelmed me with his list of tests and possible treatments and I'm embarrassed to say I haven't been back to see him since. He didn't see the ridiculously low AMH as a stumbling block and said they would use the highest stimms possible to get the most eggs. However, another clinic said they would probably recommend mild or natural cycle IVF in the hope of getting a few eggs. Two completely different opinions!

Duggs and Mel sorry to hear SO hasn't worked for you. Let's hope 2013 and going it alone is the way forward and works for you both.

Belly sorry to hear about your mc and I hope things get moving for you sooner rather than later. I certainly admire your patience in waiting for things to happen naturally and avoiding an unnecessary ERPC. Patience is not one of my strong points!

Kittens fantastic news on a great scan. I'm so happy for you!

Waves to all.

brownstag Wed 28-Nov-12 08:13:08

Thanks Breezy, that's very interesting and I can imagine what a shock your AMH must be at your age. From what I read, though, you're still in a much better position than someone older with the same low AMH, because your eggs are younger, though I'm sure that doesn't feel like much of a consolation.
I need to ask someone, like Mr S, whether this low AMH means an early menopause is on the cards, or whether it's possible to hang about in this rubbish state for some time, particularly when FSH is okay. Do you know what age your mother went through menopause? Daughters are meant to follow suit, and that just doesn't fit in my case because my mother was 55. I've been thinking about it and the ovaries are only one part of the whole system, after all, with the hypothalamus being another, and maybe with our FSH being okay, the hypothalamus 'thinks' everything's okay. It may be different if there is a specific disease state or condition that causes the low AMH in the ovaries, like NKC activitiy or endometriosis. I'm clutching at straws here! My problem is that I often come up with these theories and then can't remember if I've read them or made them up.
Would you take DHEA? Not that I've been a great advert for it! But even if I give up ttc, I'm going to carry on taking it, prob 25mg, because I feel so much better on it. Maybe it's worth trying it for a few months and then restesting the AMH (via a cheap online test).

Breezyweezy Wed 28-Nov-12 10:19:49

Brown to be honest, I find the whole low AMH thing almost unbelievable. I wish Mr S had never done the test. When he gave me the results I didn't even know I had had it tested so it was a double shock!!

From everything I have read, low AMH would seem to indicate early menopause, but there doesn't seem to be anything out there about low AMH and perfect FSH. My periods have gone from 28 days to 26 in the past 18 months since my last mc but they are as regular as clockwork and since I chart, I know I ovulate just about every month. I asked my mum about when she went through the menopause and she said at about 45-46, so not that young. I find it ironic as I have 2 sisters, one older, one younger, who have always had problems with their periods. Both late starters, one was told she would never have kids as she didn't ovulate and had very irregular periods. She now has 3 kids. The other had hypothalamic amenorrhea (complete lack of periods) due to excessive exercise - she'd run a half marathon every day the lunatic!! She was told she'd done irreparable harm to her ovaries, but 3 months after stopping running, putting on 2 stone and a course of clomid she got pg and now has a gorgeous 8 month old girl. I on the other hand have always had regular periods and seemed to get pg quite quickly (within 3-6 months) and now nothing in the past 12 months.

The only thing the consultants that I saw for IVF agreed on was taking DHEA 75mg a day. I have some sitting in the cupboard but have not taken them yet. I had my testosterone and DHEA measured and they are fine, but I made the mistake of asking Louise one day and she said that she and Mr S do not recommend taking it at all. I just don't know. I am taking so many different drugs and supplements that I actually wonder whether that isn't the problem. My previous 3 pg and subsequent mc I was only taking a preconception vitamin and that was it!

Sorry for the ridiculously long post!

Arianrhod Wed 28-Nov-12 10:38:27

breezy Just chiming in here, I asked Mr S about DHEA once and he said he had tried some women on it previously and never found it made any difference at all, so he doesn't recommend it. If you have your DHEA and testosterone regularly checked, then there cannot be any harm in taking it, I would have said? I took it for 5 months but unmonitored, which is why I stopped taking it in the end, as I was very nervous of it unbalancing my estrogen/testosterone balance. I have also wondered if taking too many supplements etc might be a problem, but then I know exactly what everything I take does, and I cannot see what I take could have an adverse effect.

I do wonder how you can have low AMH but perfect FSH, seems a bit of a mystery to me (and I am talking from the ignorance of never having had the fright of having my AMH tested. I can't believe it would be a good level if I did.). Remember you can be perimenopausal for 10 years sometimes, so even if that is the case it still doesn't mean you're not fertile - it may just mean you have less eggs than someone younger. Doesn't mean the eggs you do have are all bad, just that there are less of them. My mother tells me she started menopause proper around age 55; I'm only 44, so theoretically I shouldn't be heading for that just yet.

Seems all a bit hit and miss to me, which is rubbish sad

brownstag Wed 28-Nov-12 10:59:22

Just a quick post in reply about DHEA, though I will reply more fully later, but since I have been taking DHEA my oestrogen levels have gone up from 101 in January (pre-DHEA) to 160 this month. Is this good or bad for fertility?
Just had my hair cut too and far from having less hair, my hairdresser told me my hair was thicker, and said 'I don't know what you're doing, but carry on doing it'! DHEA and Co-enzyme Q10 are the two supplements that I'm personally sure I feel better taking. If you find you have side effects you could always reduce it. I have only benefits on 50mg, but bad acne on 75mg.

Arianrhod Wed 28-Nov-12 11:53:03

I don't know if this helps or hinders, but I just found this very interesting article about DHEA: http://www.fertileheart.com/576/

I was looking up another article on there on low AMH/high FSH, also very interesting. The website is by the author of 'Inconceivable', which possibly several of you may have read (I have it, I just haven't read it yet).

brownstag Wed 28-Nov-12 19:03:17

Thanks Ari, I have seen those Fertile Heart posts, but I've always got suspicious of them, that they're trying to sell me something, so not finished. They start by telling you their story and end by how doing something Fertile-Heart-related saved the day.
Breezy, a friend of mine also started puberty and her periods late (16), which was mortifying for her at the time, but she's the friend who's pregnant at nearly 43 with no trouble, so maybe starting late can be an advantage. Also, just before conceiving her second child, she'd had a day 3 test, and was told her testosterone was high, but it obviously did her no harm. Also, from what I've read, testosterone may used directly (instead of DHEA) in the future to help develop follicles, so I'm not particularly worried by testosterone being too high from taking DHEA.
Having said that, Mr S told me not to take DHEA too, because of the risk of bladder cancer. Something I haven't come across in the literature.

Mel3062 Thu 29-Nov-12 05:39:49

Well af arrived yesterday v painful so I've booked the tnf test for the 11th and having scan at same time. Do you have to go back for the results? When you have month off steroids does that mean you can't try?? X hope everyone's ok

brownstag Thu 29-Nov-12 16:14:29

Sorry, I don't know much about the scan, but I would have thought they would advise you not to try because without the steroids you're more likely to miscarry if you do conceive. But I would probably try anyway!

brownstag Thu 29-Nov-12 16:14:54

Sorry, not the scan, I meant the test.

Arianrhod Sun 02-Dec-12 10:20:50

Morning ladies .. Well, that's a big fat raspberry for my 6th SO cycle too, 12dpo and not even a hint of a hint of a line. Probably not going to do SO this next cycle due to costs of Christmas, DD's 6th birthday and her school fees all due within the next month .. I can't do £335 of SO on top of it all. Looks like this third Christmas won't be our chance of a baby either.

lemonsherbet Sun 02-Dec-12 10:30:37

ari sorry to hear that. How many SO cycles does Mr S recommend thought it was 6? Christmas is a tough time since it seems so children centred and for many of us significant anniversaries.

Arianrhod Sun 02-Dec-12 11:54:49

It was lemon but Mr S said since I am getting pregnant on SO (twice) I can carry on doing it.

Mel3062 Tue 04-Dec-12 06:15:45

Sorry to hear that ari sad x

brownstag Fri 07-Dec-12 20:09:13

Sorry, Ari.
Well, I got my new AMH results: a staggering 2.1!
Totally rubbish, of course, but there's always the possibility that the increase was due to DHEA, in which case it could increase more. I'm now on 4 months and isn't that how long it takes for new follicles to grow through?
ari, do you take selenium?
I suppose I'm just not ready to give up yet; my AMH results floored me at first but I've got up now and dusted myself off. I just keep moving the goalposts. Louise advised me to do more superovulation, and to get on with it.
How is everyone? It seems a bit quiet on here.

Mel3062 Sat 08-Dec-12 10:53:44

Going for my tnf alpha test Tuesday!! X brownstag good luck all we can do is brush ourself off and look forward!!

Breezyweezy Sat 08-Dec-12 21:08:35

Brown sorry to hear about your second AMH result, but good to see it has gone up. Only slightly I know, but it has to be a little encouraging. I too am wondering about having mine re-tested. I am popping in to pick up my next SO prescription on Monday so may ask Louise. After last time though, I think I would be scared that it has gone down even more, well as much as you can go down from 0.63!!

Still undecided about the DHEA (don't want acne and excess facial hair!!), though your result does encourage me. Realised that the stuff I have is not the micronised version (apparently only available online from the US) and Dr G was adamant that this was the one I should take. Is the one you are taking Brown, the micronised version? I have started on Co-q10 today after reading various threads on FF about it also being good for egg quality. Some have said their IVF clinics are advising them to take 600mg/day so I will try that and hope that is doesn't have any adverse effects! I also take Selenium (200μg) and Magnesium (250mg) as I read on the Pred thread that it helps with your lining - think it was Freelancegirl that said it and I believe Ari was on them too together with a whole load of other supplements!! And yep, Brown that was the advice I was given from Dr S and Louise too!

Mel good luck for the tnf alpha test. I had that last month and thank goodness it came back normal. The first test I have had back with a normal result for a while!!

Have a good weekend all.

Breezyweezy Sat 08-Dec-12 21:10:45

Ari forgot to say, sorry to hear that your 6th SO cycle was unsuccessful but glad to hear Mr S says you can carry on with it.

Mel3062 Sun 09-Dec-12 06:46:43

Thanks breezy weezy I'm not sure how I feel as mr s says people get pregnant after humira so I want that to happen even though the injections are expensive!! At least that would be another reason why it's not happening?! If that makes sense?! But yes a negative result would be good I guess ?! X

brownstag Sun 09-Dec-12 14:16:40

Good luck Mel.

BreezyWeezy, I've also just ordered selenium and magnesium, from my own researches. I'll look later to see if my DHEA is micronised. I haven't had any extra facial hair, even though I'm dark, and the acne is controllable with benzoyl peroxide. The benefits of good sleep, thicker hair and a feeling of mental well-being/ability to cope with more stress far outweigh the acne, or else I probably wouldn't take it.

I'm actually glad I had the AMH test now because I really do feel I know what the problem is now and what I've got to do. I used to think to myself, why would I get pregnant at 41 if I hadn't at 40, or 39? But now I do feel that I am more likely to get pregnant at 41, because of the DHEA. My AMH must have been non-existent for the last two years before I started it.

Ari, I know you've always wanted to avoid the test, but I would really think about it. I'm not going to waste my time and energy now on anything that isn't related to improving my AMH and egg quality. And essentially that boils down to 4 things: DHEA, coenzyme q10, selenium and magnesium.
Although I am in a different boat from you, as you do have recurrent miscarriage, so you have got more issues to cover.

If there's one benefit of secondary infertility, it's that it's cured my recurrent miscarriage problem! grin

brownstag Sun 09-Dec-12 14:23:36

P.S. Very interesting the discussion about the 'unfussy uterus' in recurrent miscarriage (was that on the other thread?) That certainly applies to my good friend LJ71. (Mine is the Womb of Supreme Fastidiousness, on the other hand.)

Arianrhod Mon 10-Dec-12 09:01:45

Hi ladies ... brown yes I do take selenium, it helps with a few things. Good to hear your AMH has crept up a bit, although I understand it's still not where you'd like it!

The DHEA I took was micronized, I read that's the best type to take. I did myself get more facial hair - I'm blonde, so fortunately it didn't really show to anyone other that me peering in the mirror!!, but definitely there - 'moustache' area, but also chin, eek! And it's gone since I stopped taking the DHEA, so that must have been the cause. Also the major hair loss that I was getting while taking it has stopped. I didn't get the better sleep (but I sleep well anyway) or extra energy levels that you got brown - I would say it sounds like it is definitely helping you, whereas I would say it didn't for me. I'm glad you feel more positive about having taken the test brown, but for me, I'm already taking 600mg Co-Q10, selenium, and every other supplement under the sun (except DHEA), so I couldn't do anything different (other than worry more) if my AMH is low, which of course it will be.

Yes it's on the pred thread, the discussion about the 'unfussy womb' syndrome, which is what I think I have. Doesn't help a great deal with the stress levels!! I don't seem to have an infertility issue (which is just as well, with the large number of other issues I do have!) but I think my body is too ready to accept any old pregnancy, at least initially.

I'm not doing SO this month, as I think I mentioned, due to the cost basically, and I'm honestly in two minds whether to start it up again. I know I'm getting double the chance of getting pregnant every month, which has to be a good thing ... but it's £335 a month, every month, and that's a heck of a lot of money for me. I just don't know if I can afford to keep going, to be honest. I may take a couple of months off, Dec and Jan (two paydays!), and then think again. I imagine I will start it again, just for the chance, but the ££ is hard sad

Good luck with the TNF alpha test Mel, I hope it comes back with the answer you want!

breezy Did Mr S not suggest taking Co-Q10 when you first saw him? He did to me, so I've been taking it ever since, although I only upped it to the level I'm on now (600mg) since reading about the benefits on the FF board some months back. Goodness knows if it's doing any good, but it certainly can't do any harm. Ditto with the resveratrol and pycnogenol - recommended by a lot of American REs, and it can't do any harm (except to my bank balance, ouch!) so I take those too.

/waves to everyone

brownstag Mon 10-Dec-12 12:40:10

That's interesting that Mr S recommended coenzyme q10. What dose did he suggest? I was taking 200mg from healthspan as they are gelatine free, but they're £24 for 60 tablets, which I've now upped to two a day, even though it should be 3 really, but I can't afford it.
Re. the DHEA, would you not consider 25mg or less a day? I'm just thinking of its help with prevention of 'ordinary' miscarriage and improving egg quality but without the side effects. I sometimes go down to 50mg for a bit to have a break from the outbreaks.
What I would be interested to know is how long DHEA continues to exert any benefit as no one seems to have done any long-term studies. If I take it for a year will my AMH still be rising? Could one artificially recreate a normal ovarian environment eventually? And of course there is the theoretical long-term risk of oestrogen-dependent cancers, although no one in my family has had anything like that.
What effects have you had from selenium? And do you take magnesium? At least the two of those supplements are relatively cheap!

brownstag Mon 10-Dec-12 12:40:43

Meant to say, since taking coenzyme q10 my luteal phase has been longer.

Arianrhod Mon 10-Dec-12 14:12:43

He didn't suggest a dose, just told me to take it, so I did my own research, unsurprisingly! DHEA - no, I don't think so, not without having my DHEA-S and testosterone levels monitored. It can do bad things, as well as good, and if I don't know what it's doing to me I don't want to be taking it, if you see what I mean. I have seen people saying they took it for 6 months before having success - but no way of knowing whether that was down to the DHEA or not, I guess. I don't know about long-term use - but again, if you're being monitored it should be fine, I would think?

Magnesium I don't take separately, but my super-multivit contains 60mg magnesium already. No effects at all from the selenium, that I can tell; I've been taking it since March this year.

Arianrhod Mon 10-Dec-12 14:14:30

Interesting about your LP brown; it had no effect on mine, which is a constant 13 days. Agnus castus didn't have any effect on that either, but I know it did have some effect because for the two months I haven't been taking it I haven't felt ovulation pains at all (and I usually do feel them in spades!). Plus usually on AC my bbs hurt like heck in the lead-up to AF; for the past two months, only a little. I've started taking it again for the moment until I decide what I'm doing with SO.

Mel3062 Tue 11-Dec-12 12:33:58

Thanks ladies tnf test done left at 3.40 am and still 10 minutes late for 9am appt!! I'm not sure what is the right result all I want is a baby sad xx I know what you mean about expense today's cost about £570 sad

lemonsherbet Thu 13-Dec-12 09:26:22

Ari have you seen the new pregacare max they contain activated folate in them. Admittedly they are not keep approx 20 pounds per a month supply. I know you like to make up your own cocktail but thought I would point it out to you.

Brown sorry about the AMH result but at least it has improved slightly and people with lower have had success on this thread.

Mel I know what you mean about the expense of blood tests, was a bit like that with AMH and it was still cheaper than the TNF blood test.

Waves to breezy hol and anyone else who is lurking.

Arianrhod Thu 13-Dec-12 10:32:04

Hey lemon ... that's interesting that they've done that with pregnacare, good on them. Maybe they're understanding finally that folate is needed for all sorts of things in pregnancy, better than folic acid.

/waves to everyone

Arianrhod Fri 21-Dec-12 10:32:00

All very quiet in here at the moment ... anyone still doing SO, in the 2WW, waiting for follie scan, or like me, just taking a bit of a break for a month or so? (financially-induced, in my case!)

And in case any are on here and not also on the Pred thread ... may your Christmas be jolly, may Santa bring you a ray of hope in your Christmas stocking, and may your 2013 be a damn sight better than your 2012, if 2012 wasn't a good one for you! grin

Mel3062 Fri 21-Dec-12 18:48:35

Same to you ari I'm just waiting for my tnf results xx

Pebbles73 Sat 22-Dec-12 13:40:08

Hello all just wanted to pop in to wish everyone a very lovely Christmas and hoping that your dreams come true in 2013, you all so deserve it. smile
Just been trying to catch up on all the news on here as not lurked for a while, sorry to see there have been no pregnancies on the super ov and sorry for your amh results Brown. I see you are taking a break .Ari like myself, although I am considering taking letrezole and just trying without the ovitrelle and scan. Having said that I have enjoyed not taking any drugs and being off the ttc wagon. Do you think you will do more super ov after Xmas?
Mel good luck with the tnf- alpha results, Mr S has my results but can't afford to go and see him at the mo as need all money for our hols. The result has obviously come back as high as Cheryl said she could only give me results by email if the result was low and came back saying I needed to make an appointment. So looks like humira for me, the cost of that on top of ivf is worrying to say the least. hmm

After last Christmas when I was just going through the end of my miscarriage I have found it hard this year and can't say I feel very festive. I think some of you have had miscarriages around Christmas so hope you are all holding up.

Anyway big waves to you all.xx

Mel3062 Sat 22-Dec-12 19:44:51

Aw pebbles I don't know if a high result meaning you can then have humira is good or bad! Bad as in cost I know! Ill email Louise as I need to know if I need to book a train and itl be 2 weeks on Xmas day that I had it done.
My baby would've been due Xmas day so not feeling festive either, not even got tree up yet as had a virus all week sad
Happy Xmas though ladies and here's to a better new year xxx

Pebbles73 Sun 23-Dec-12 09:09:59

That's exactly how I feel Mel but then you always get that bit of hope that it will be the answer. Felt like that about taking steroids for high nkc 's but all that did for me was another chemical pregnancy....

So sorry to hear you were due Xmas day, you must be feeling pretty crap and wanting to ignore Christmas completely. Sending you big hugs.x

Arianrhod Mon 24-Dec-12 08:51:44

pebbles At least they may have found something that is an answer for you - I do hear you about the cost though sad.

Mel Sorry to hear about your impending would-have-been date, it really does cast a damper on things. The last two Christmasses I was going through a miscarriage, this Christmas there is no sign of anything.

pebbles I don't know if I will carry on with SO after this 'break' month. OH doesn't appear at all interested in us having a baby, not that he's ever shown a great deal of interest, and I feel like not only am I banging my head against the age brick wall, I'm the only person in this relationship who actually wants a baby. Why throw away £335 every month just to try to do something alone? I'm really not sure, but it's not looking likely. What are you plans, are you lining up more IVF?

/waves to everyone

brownstag Mon 24-Dec-12 10:20:06

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everyone. I haven't been on here for a while but am oddly feeling quite positive about 2013. Big hugs to everyone. I really know how you feel, ari. My OH (who is currently in bed with Norovirus, poor thing) now considers the whole thing at an end ever since I told him my AMH results.
Pebbles, I know the result means a hideous extra cost, but personally, knowing what my problem is has brought me some kind of peace of mind and you might find the same after a while. I don't feel I'm forever searching any more.
Well, I've got a pre-op assessment for my lap and dye on 28th Dec, so that if a space becomes available on either the 3rd or 10th Jan I can have it then. But only if there's a cancellation. And assuming the whole hospital isn't closed down with winter vomiting bug. Then got app with Mr S on 28th Jan.
May we all win the lottery this Christmas and sort out the whole financial burden of all this treatment! Perhaps we should start a syndicate ;) xx

Mel3062 Mon 24-Dec-12 12:38:59

Well I'm ill with a flu like virus got sent home twice last week sad my tnf test has come back high so needs treating so Surrey on the 3rd for the tb test then humira... Joy!! X

Arianrhod Mon 24-Dec-12 13:50:48

Hmm This high TNF-a wave is very interesting ... on the FF board they often say that high TNF-a is indicative of something else going on, but also that it in turn causes high NKCs. So bringing down the TNF-a should hopefully also bring down NKCs.

Very interesting, and a pity it wasn't tested for early on in investigations ... might have saved some heartache. I haven't had mine tested, and not sure it's worth it for me as the humira injections only work for so long, and there's no guarantee I'd have enough good eggs to get 'properly' pregnant quick enough. But very interested to see what happens with you both, mel and pebbles.

Pebbles73 Tue 25-Dec-12 00:27:00

So it sounds like you are seriously considering calling it a day Ari? It must be very hard on you pretty much going it alone as can be tough even with support, you may feel differently after taking a break though.

Brown good luck with the lap and dye, will be lurking to see how you get on.

Mel surprised they didn't do your tb test at the same time as mine were done at the same time. How are you feeling about the result? Lets hope that humira turns out to be the answer.

I hear you Ari and Brown that its good to know what's wrong but have just become rather sceptical about it all as I seem to find more and more things wrong and so wonder what other problems there are I don't yet know about..... think 2013 will be the lady year of trying for us.

Mel3062 Tue 25-Dec-12 06:44:35

Thanks hun i think I nearly had it at the same time but then he said there's no point me paying for the test if I may not need it but I wish he had in a way then humira can start early but I guess a 5 day wait isn't too bad. It's just a pain going back to Surrey for the test but at least it's still in my holidays so here's to my month break whilst having humira!! Hope it is the answer. Do I have to not try at all?? Or is it just no steroids? Do I have humira at Surrey or do it myself??
Happy christmas to you all hoping 2013 is the best for us all xxx

Arianrhod Wed 26-Dec-12 21:31:37

pebbles You've just said what I've been thinking for sometime. I'm rather sceptical about this ever working as I keep finding more and more things wrong, what more is there that I don't know about? I can't say yet whether it's definitely the end of the line, or even of doing SO, but it really does begin to look like there's little point in carrying on.

mel I hope humira is the answer for you.

Hope everyone is enjoying their Christmas to the full!

brownstag Sun 30-Dec-12 19:12:23

Ari, I found this article that might be of interest in deciding whether to continue with SO.
http://estudogeral.sib.uc.pt:8080/bitstream/10316/4749/1/file1f2e7cb6af8b44f39729acf59bd71f01.pdf

The really relevant bit is as follows:
'We have previously argued that superovulation protocols will produce a considerable number of poor-quality oocytes for fertilization (19) because they supersede the natural selection mechanisms associated with oogenesis, such as atresia. Such events are designed to prevent these oocytes from being ovulated.'

Possibly not what you want to hear, I know, but it tallies with what a lot of us feel instinctively, that superovulation may produce one result, but upsets the natural balance in other ways. You may well be better off waiting for that one good naturally ovulated egg.
Has anyone heard about the hormone kisspeptin? That seems a much more hopeful way of influencing fertility in a more natural way, without the need for drugs, but whether anything will be developed in time for us to use it is another matter, assuming it can be used in older women as well as hypothalamic amenorrhea.
Happy New year everyone!
xxx

duggs1976 Mon 31-Dec-12 04:23:39

Just jumping in here ladies to wish all a happy new year and hopefully a more successful one with this journey. A very interesting article about SO. I have previously gotten pregnant every 3 to 6 mths until I started SO with dr s and nothing for over a year naturally.. No more for me. Best of luck for those who want to continue to try but I am quite sceptical. I think it is great if it has worked for you but I reckon you would've gotten that good egg anyway. Thanks for post has confirmed by suspicions - if it worked would'nt the world be doing it !!?

Arianrhod Wed 02-Jan-13 10:02:44

Happy New Year everyone (and I hope it IS a happy one for us all!). brown thanks for that link, I read the article - ok so some terms rather went over my head but I got the gist of it. Very interesting, and for me at my hugely advanced age (I'm feeling a bit like an old nag put out to pasture right now) it actually makes a whole heap of sense, and something I've actually wondered about. It's a fact that at my age I will have more 'bad' eggs than good, and I've often wondered if SO forcing the maturation/release of more than one egg at a time won't simply be upping the number of 'bad' eggs that are being released. I assumed though that your body's natural processes would still junk anything that wasn't properly fertilisable; it's interesting to read that they appear to believe SO bypasses the natural process to some degree and that eggs get through that otherwise wouldn't. I wonder why then Mr S advocates SO for us 'older' ladies? Although to be fair to him, it was me that asked to do it, he said I should do IVF.

I'm still in two minds about SO, sitting around and waiting to see IF one 'good' egg ever gets released when only one a month is coming through (and assuming we manage to 'catch' that one egg) isn't easy, as you will all know. I'm 45 in a week, and like I say, rather feeling that it's now just too late - that, plus as I say, OH doesn't appear in the least bit interested. But I won't be doing SO for a few months, at least, if I ever do do it again, since OH seems to think holidays are more important and I cannot afford to pay for SO all myself and pay for half a holiday (two, actually, since he wants to go away for Easter as well as summer). Where's the Lottery win when you need it?!

Well, I'm just about to start AF, due tomorrow and right on cue bbs have stopped their usual post-OV hurting (although since stopping agnus castus they don't hurt anywhere near as much as they did - and I'm not sure that's a good thing, doesn't less bb pain indicate less progesterone in your system?). So clearly this isn't our month either. I know some people do get successfully pregnant when they're older (abney is an inspiration for me personally, given that she's my age!) but I have to face the harsh reality that so many don't. Although how many 45 year old women try for babies? Who knows. And with DQa and NKc problems, my body's busily trying to kill off anything that might stand a chance of growing anyway, so am I really being sensible even holding out any hope? The last few weeks the joints in my hands have been hurting like heck and the psoriasis on my elbows itching like mad (which they haven't done in years), so I'm assuming for whatever reason my NK cells are on the rampage. Honestly, what realistic chance do I have?

Hmm Sorry ladies, that wasn't intended to come out as a negative post, especially not so early in a new year. But I'm very aware that I may just be banging my head against a brick wall here, while taking extra-strength painkillers for the headache I'm causing. I'm just not sure how to say ok, that's it, and draw a line under the whole affair. I'm not very good at giving up on things!

Hope all of your New Years have started full of hope and optimism, and please ignore my gloomy ramblings!

Mel3062 Fri 04-Jan-13 07:25:54

Aw ari sending you a big hug. Has mr s continued checking your egg reserve?
I saw mr s last night and my alpha result was 54 and should be 31 so he said that is a big factor but he was v positive so hopefully humira will do the trick but I nearly died when I got the bill sad
He did say not to try yet some people have said to whilst having humira unless they mean after both injections??
Good luck ladies whatever you choose this month xx

Arianrhod Fri 04-Jan-13 12:45:23

Thanks mel .. no, Mr S just did the AFC scan right at the start (and pronounced them just fine) and then the LH/FSH/E2 blood test April last year, and that's that.

So have you had your first humira injection then? Everything ok with it, no reaction?? I can't say whether you can try or not, perhaps if choccy is still reading here she can comment?

Mel3062 Fri 04-Jan-13 14:46:23

Hi no not starting injections for another week.
I've got to get my LH/FSH/E2 taken again as had it done about 7 months ago.whats an AFC scan?? X

Arianrhod Fri 04-Jan-13 14:58:19

AFC is Antral Follicle Scan - another way of estimating your ovarian reserve.

Arianrhod Wed 09-Jan-13 13:40:01

Reeeeaaallly quiet on here now ... no-one still doing SO?? Well I know I'm not one to talk, exactly ... hit the big 45 yesterday, and pretty p*d off with the whole process.

How's everyone doing?

Mel3062 Wed 09-Jan-13 19:15:57

Aw ari sad happy birthday I know what you mean as you hit each birthday the last thing you feel like doing is celebrating xx
Well as above starting humira in a few days hopefully x are you giving so another shot?

lemonsherbet Wed 09-Jan-13 20:18:02

Happy Birthday Ari.

I am yet to start SO since like duggs am a bit sceptical. Waiting for NHS appointment in recurrent miscarriage clinic they have cancelled the date was meant to be seen. Then sent me through a date I can not make.
Still lurking on here but not much I can contribute at present.

Mel3062 Thu 10-Jan-13 07:03:57

Well day 43 and I know af is coming as I have a spot and got bfn but my cycle used to be bang on 28/31 days and 2 cycles now its messed up how can it be when I get follicle scan and ovitrelle??! Annoying sad

Arianrhod Thu 10-Jan-13 08:24:30

Thanks ladies, birthday is rather a curse than a blessing when you're looking at fertility sad

mel That's odd .. have you mentioned it to Mr S/Louise? What CD is Mr S having you trigger? Seems odd that it's been extended so much - I'd definitely mention it if I were you.

SO ... I don't know ... I can't decide. Part of me thinks it's just a waste of a lot of money every month, part of me is worried that more 'bad' eggs are just being produced, but part of me thinks 'two chances to get pregnant every month'. Ultimately I just don't know, but I suspect I won't do SO again. Or at least not for a few months. Not sure.

/waves to everyone

Breezyweezy Thu 10-Jan-13 17:33:04

Hi Ladies and Happy New Year to all. I really hope 2013 is the year for us all, however, I have been saying that to myself since 2009 and each year seems to be worse than the one before!

Ari happy birthday for the other day.

Brown thanks for posting the article about SO. Very interesting indeed. I'm guessing that when you have a virtually undetectable AMH it isn't the ideal treatment solution! But then again, what would be?!

Mel sorry to hear of your extended cycle. That does sound strange considering you are having your cycle tracked.

lemon hope you get your RMC appointment sorted out soon. Which clinic will you be going to? I went to St Mary's and was bitterly disappointed since I had read so much good stuff about them online.

I hear the skepticism about SO. I had really hoped it could be my answer but 4 cycles in and nothing. I know the success is supposed to come in cycles 4-6, but I don't think I'll be doing it again, typical as I have 2 month's worth of letrozole! I have finally had my GP refer me for NHS fertility investigations and go to my first appointment Feb 7th. It's silly as to be referred, you needed to have scans and bloods done by the GP and then they want them done again before your NHS appointment. Am sure they will only offer IUI as a first port of call (useless imo) before moving to IVF, but I suppose it is progress and will save the ££s doing SO! The bugger is I am on jury service and sods law has intervened and I have ended up on a 12 week case shock. Fun trying to get the judge to understand I need to have time off to go to scans and blood tests for "women's things" that can only be on certain days and at short notice!!

Mel3062 Thu 10-Jan-13 21:13:30

Yes I had trigger on dec 13th day 16 of cycle! I thought I felt ovulation the following Sunday so this is bizarre. Yes told mr s and as having "month off" for humira he said to see what happens with cycle. It's only happened once before but it wasn't as long as this and it was not a good response on my scan either so that sort of fit. Annoying as It comes at weekend because I need blood test for fsh/lh!!! X

Arianrhod Fri 11-Jan-13 10:55:09

breezy Fabulous if they do offer you IVF on the NHS - I know it's a pain having to go through repeat testing etc, but brilliant if they end up with something that might actually give you a baby. Be warned though thata lot of NHS people don't believe in NK cells though - would you carry on seeing Mr S for the immunes side of it?

mel Hmm sounds very odd. Can you not get your blood taken at the weekend, have you got a walk-in clinic that might do phlebotomy as well?

brownstag Fri 11-Jan-13 11:58:03

Happy Birthday for the other day, Ari. I totally understand what you call your ramblings ... it's so difficult to give up; even when I say I'm going to, there's always a little proviso ...
Very odd Mel. Can it happen that you don't ovulate despite the trigger? You don't think you're one of those people who are pregnant but don't test positive on prgnancy tests?
I had my lap and dye yesterday and am still sitting around in a dressing gown today.
He removed the large endometrioma on my right ovary; it kind of came away, which is good, because incising inevitably removes some good tissue.
My endo is still exactly as it was in 1993 at my last laparascopy; severe but no longer active. He didn't try to remove any of the extensive adhesions because it might trigger new endo.
My left tube is open but my right not.
So the irony is that my fertility may now be reduced by this procedure; previously I rarely ovulated from the right, but removing the endometrioma may reawaken it (combined with the DHEA, as I think I ovulated this month from the right too), but there's no point if the tube is blocked!
So every right-ovulated cycle will be a wasted month.
All in all, it spells IVF in giant letters but I just don't have that money.

brownstag Fri 11-Jan-13 12:21:29

P.S. In my dreams the reason why there was no 'fill and spill' of the right ovary is that there was a big fat fertilised egg moving down it and blocking the way. Have no idea if that's really possible or how big an actually egg is ...

brownstag Fri 11-Jan-13 12:22:01

Right tube, I meant.

Arianrhod Fri 11-Jan-13 13:00:38

Interesting findings brown. Can I ask, how did they know you had endo to start with? Did it show up on a scan, or something? I just wonder, I had an hysteroscopy and Mr S said everything looked perfectly normal, but I always wonder whether there are conditions (like blocked tubes) that can only be seen by specific procedures, eg your lap & dye. And I do like your dream of the egg blocking a tube ... no idea either if it's possible, but it sounds excellent smile

Arianrhod Fri 11-Jan-13 13:05:30

Oh, and totally with you on the lack of IVF funds ... I keep thinking that may be our only possibility, BUT of course I just simply don't have £Ks, so it's never going to be an answer for us. Even if OH would agree to it, which he has always maintained he wouldn't. I suspect only a big fat Lottery win would sway him, and I'm not seeing that happening any time soon! Ho hum ...

In my never-ending pursual of 'is there something I could be taking that might make a difference' (although I know realistically there isn't anything), I'm now looking at Wobenzym N. Supposed to fairly drastically lower NKcs without steroids. Bloomin' expensive though, but I may give them a try. Heck, I've tried everything else! I'll know if they're doing something, as my psoriasis will calm down (good to have a kind of NKC-weathervane, I guess!). And re-looking at Royal Jelly, although I don't know if that ever really did anything when I was taking it before.

brownstag Fri 11-Jan-13 13:50:46

No, you wouldn't be able to see endo on a scan, except for large endometriomas; I had severe symptoms from ten years old, heavy periods, dreadful pain, later painful sex. It was diagnosed by laparascopy aged 22. I had read a book on it so knew that sometimes it isn't visible even on laparoscopy if you get it at the wrong time of the month so I engineered the appointment to be while I was having my period. It was definitely visible! Stage 4. But I'm an extreme case. You can have virtually no symptoms but severe disease and vice versa. I think hysteroscopy can show blocked tubes but the dye test is better.
Am off to Google Wobenzym N ...

Mel3062 Sat 12-Jan-13 06:46:08

Umm interesting. Ivf on the nhs?! What a rare thing!!
Going to google whatever his name is too!!
I don't think I'm someone who doesn't get a positive on hpt as always have done in my 4 mc :/
Umm...
Could it be the royal jelly delaying af I take 1000mg? But have taken that for a few months now?

Abney Sat 12-Jan-13 09:06:07

Hi all. Sorry I haven't posted in a while. All OK with my pg 22 weeks and 3 days. I just thought I would step in on the SO debate. I was one of those ladies who got pg very easily even when I was 42 and 43. I had my last mc christmas 2012. As I was worried about my age as soon as I could ttc again I went on the SO plan. I saw plenty of follies in this time all the right size but I had no success. After coming off it I tried naturally with good old ov sticks and it was luckily a successful outcome first time and here I am now. I still say 'if' all is OK I will be on maternity leave, etc, as it will never feel real until lo arrives.

Ari I think you have a similar history to me re getting pg easily. I was also worried about approaching 45 and I also thought that this would be the time to give up but realistically once you are on the treadmill and once ttc'ing has been part of your life for so long it is almost impossible to stop. Also now you are 45 I bet you don't feel any different from being 44. Many, many people tell me that their 'mothers' had them when they were 45. Strangely people keep asking me if I would try for another one after this one. I immediately think no that would be a really daft idea and I state that I would be too old but strangely in the back of my mind I think when DS is born I will still be only 45. Utter madness or what. I think alot of it is down to bad eggs so for you Ari you could just be waiting for that good egg. Keeping everything crossed for you.

Good luck to everyone else this year. May all of your wishes come true. I will be eagerly looking for more BFP's.

Mel3062 Sat 12-Jan-13 14:08:19

Aww thanks abney and good luck I look forward to hearing your ba xx

Mel3062 Wed 16-Jan-13 19:30:19

Well ladies day 50 and still no af sad got bfn mon. Haven't got tb so get humira tomorrow but I don't know If to do it just in case, wishful thinking I know as I know I can't be as haven't dtd since dec 21st!!

Arianrhod Thu 17-Jan-13 09:43:02

Day 50? Crikey .. have you ever had long cycles before? Are you usually regular? Have you been taking anything that could affect your hormones? Well good luck with the humira, hope that does the trick for you - and if you're not pg, then I hope AF hurries up!!

Thanks abney, I'm sure you're right, it's "just" a case of catching any good egg that might still be around. But I just wonder how much longer I'm likely to have any good eggs left, and still don't know whether to go back on SO or not, to double my chances of catching that egg every month. Not doing it for the moment, but have just started taking Wobenzym (£ouch!) and thought I'd give maca a go as well. Not expensive, fortunately, but smells & tastes pretty disgusting (and that's just the capsules, goodness knows what the powder is like!). Who knows - it won't hurt, and it may do some good somewhere.

Of course, I'm probably just chucking more money away ... !

We've just discovered that OH has heart problems, he's having an angiogram today to find out the extent, so although I'm still on the TTC trail I'm keeping very quiet about it right now. Not sure how things are going to play out but obviously this is more important, although time is still ticking so I'll keep going, just quietly, if you know what I mean.

Mel3062 Thu 17-Jan-13 17:27:35

Aw ari hope alls ok.
I'm normally v regular 28/31 days I've only ever had another long one that was 42 days and it was because it was a dud month on the scan so didn't ovitrelle but this is crazy sad
Might take wobenzam myself! X

Pebbles73 Fri 18-Jan-13 16:06:54

Hi Mel & Ari and anyone else who is still lurking. Haven't been posting as not much to contribute at the moment. Very skint after the holiday so haven't made an appointment to see Mr S yet as I know needing humira is going to cost £££ and then even more ££££££ for ivf. Need to get money together and my head together to get back on the ttc trail and all the drugs it involves. Not feeling very positive at all anymore and wondering if it is worth all the money!

So sorry to hear about your oh Ari, I can see it would put ttc on the back burner so to speak.

Mel that is a very long cycle indeed, have you spoken to Me S about it?

Sorry for the negative post although on the plus side have been promoted at work so may have to concentrate on that for a bit anyway.grin

Mel3062 Fri 18-Jan-13 17:07:15

Aw pebbles well done on promotion I know what you mean about the money sad
Af showed up today so been for lh/fsh blood test and onto humira mon. Mr s will hopefully say something about cycle length when I go in a month or so it's never been that long!! Does royal jelly do that??
Waves to all x

duggs1976 Sat 19-Jan-13 07:28:19

Pebbles, mel, ari, brown ...who else is out there? Ok so continuing the theory about SO and it's benefits. .. I had a couple mths off the drugs and the SO plan and got a positive ( not big and not fat) few days ago. I'm terrified and am sure will fail but point is this is first positive I've had in over a year since starting with dr s - aside from one IVF round that quickly failed last April. My theory relates to DH and having better sperm DNA fragmentation. Too early for any real theories but I can't help but think with his rate last summer 33% we had a 1% chance of live birth. All NK cells treatment was irrelevant. Anyone with a DH already is not relevant to but pebbles maybe something u could think about? His normal sperm analysis was fine lots of it and very motile etc it is a more in depth test. Just a thought as that is the only correlation to this positive pregnancy result - which may well fail still- but I wanted to mention again.

duggs1976 Sat 19-Jan-13 07:30:07

Opps meant anyone with a child already not DH already !

Mel3062 Sat 19-Jan-13 10:48:05

Oh duggs I so hope this is it for you fingers crossed I can imagine how you must be feeling ( whispers congrats) I guess it's one step at a time honey. I have a oh but she's 18 and was born 11 weeks early so that's another thing... So id be interested to know more about what you mean duggs as my hubby's result was ok. I don't know if I've had abit of implantation failure as af is v heavy and stringy (sorry!) still hoping humira will do the trick x

Mel3062 Sat 19-Jan-13 10:48:51

Oops got child already so just saw not relevant?! X

Pebbles73 Sat 19-Jan-13 14:11:54

Oh wow Duggs a positive is a fantastic start and I have everything I can possibly cross crossed for you!! grin
As your nk's are no longer high you should be in with a great chance if this being the one that sticks.

So that's two people now including Abney who have had positives after stopping super ov, very interesting. Of course though you were people who got pregnant naturally anyway which has never happened for me.

I hear what you are saying Duggs but where do all the tests stop? You can just go on and on testing things and we just don't have that kind if money. I just feel unfortunately for us t just isn't going to happen, when I had the miscarriage last year I just had this feeling I would never be pregnant again. I think it will be one last shot at ivf with immune treatment this year and then will call it a day. Have enjoyed having my life back again these last couple of months and feeling more like my old self.

duggs1976 Sun 20-Jan-13 09:12:44

Hear what you are saying mel and pebbles. I hope humira does the trick mel. It is your best shot it seems. I am watching out for you. pebbles it seems you are naturally coming to a place - IVF with NK cells treatment is a great last shot- what more could you do as you say - where to draw the line? Have you and DH discussed or considered adoption as a future possibility if things don't develop on this front? Sorry I can't remember if you've ever mentioned that route before?

duggs1976 Sun 20-Jan-13 17:26:45

Spotting today and negative not pregnant on test - oh well at least was v early hmm

Breezyweezy Sun 20-Jan-13 18:20:15

Oh duggs just wanted to pop my head in to say bugger. I had everything crossed that this was going to be the one for you. At least is was early, like you say, but that still doesn't stop the disappointment and sadness does it?

ari hope the tests on your OH went well.

Waves to all and hope you had a nice snowy weekend.

duggs1976 Sun 20-Jan-13 18:39:56

Thanks breezy !! I'm ok kind of expected it but still!!! Hope everyone is ok. What r u up to btw?

Mel3062 Sun 20-Jan-13 19:12:45

Aww duggs so sorry to hear that sad our bodies can be so cruel.
Just had humira it stung me so getting some emla cream to numb it next time!! X

Breezyweezy Sun 20-Jan-13 19:27:49

duggs I know you learn to live with, and expect, the disappointment each month when nothing happens, but it still hurts though!
I am just keeping going, biding my time till my NHS fertility app at the beginning of Feb at UCH. Am kind of hoping they bypass any IUI and go straight to IVF (they do it at CRGH apparently), but am sure they will want to try the low cost alternatives first. OH isn't really too keen on any of it tbh. I am going to struggle to get him to go do his "business" before the appointment as you have to do it at the hospital. He prefers the luxury of home even though I have told him they probably have visual aids or to just to take his ipad!! wink. Just wish it was easier, but it's now 2 years since I was last pg, so wondering if my rather undetectable AMH is the cause and we'll never get to have a baby! Anyway...I have another 10 weeks of jury service to occupy my mind!

mel glad to hear you have finally got to have your first humira shot. Let's hope this does the trick for you.

lemonsherbet Mon 21-Jan-13 06:00:59

duggs I am so sorry to hear about the chemical. I was so pleased to hear that you had a BFP. It just doesn't seem fair you have been on the list for such a long time I final thought it was your turn. Just wanted to say am thinking of you.

Arianrhod Mon 21-Jan-13 09:29:25

Oh bugger duggs, so very sorry. This whole process is just bl**dy cr@ppy.

People rave about that midwife program on the Beeb, I just can't watch it. I get emails from things like Netmums advertising toddler groups, baby classes, etc and even that makes me wince thinking I should have a toddler ready to go to a group by now. I know no-one ever said life is fair, but really, come on, this is going too far? We have a bunch of wonderful women on here who would be fantastic mummies, but can't get their babies, then you have people (I'm sure you all know the sort of people I mean) who seem capable of popping babies out whenever they want but who don't appreciate what they've got.

pebbles I've said exactly the same thing about tests - where do you stop? There are so many things to be tested for, and they're all £££ - at what point do you say, no more? Who will you do your IVF cycle with, your existing clinic or somewhere else?

breezy Not too long to your appt at UCH ... crossing fingers they go straight for IVF if that's what you want to do. Understand reluctant OH - how hard is it for them to 'do their bit', really? I know the hospital isn't the most relaxing environment and all that, but still, considering what we have to go through you'd think they could cope with just that little contribution?

mel Hope the humira does the trick, when do you have your next shot? And will they test you again after, to see if it's worked?

Thanks for the good wishes for OH - seems he's 'just' got a leaky valve, everything else is ok. Hospital don't seem bothered by it, just want to monitor him.

/waves to everyone

Mel3062 Mon 21-Jan-13 13:16:50

Thanks ari I can't watch obem or midwife sad
Next shot is in 2 weeks but it stung so getting some emla cream!! Then ill get blood test 2 weeks after that to see if they've lowered x

Pebbles73 Mon 21-Jan-13 14:03:37

Duggs just read your news and I am sooo gutted for you, god life is so b****y unfair. Hope you are doing as ok as you can and sending big hugs as know how disappointing it feels.

In answer to your question about adoption Duggs it is something we are considering, I just always thought it would never come to that!

Breezy good luck with your appointment, I had three goes at ivf on the Nhs and they didn't make me have iui first so fingers crossed. They do indeed provide a room with some lovely mags for your oh. I was lucky that my dh was very good about it as he was mainly worried about what I was having to have done bless him.

Ari how funny you should say that about call the midwife as I have always made sure I don't watch it as just couldn't face it and yes wish mumsnet wouldn't send all the baby stuff through!! Glad to hear your oh is doing ok.
We are trying to weigh up the options at the moment and thinking of just saying sod it and paying for the ARGC as only having one more go. On the other hand it will probably cost between £10 to £15k which us a huge ammount if money we don't physically have. There sucsess rates for my age though are about 50% where as the general average is 24%. So more chance of it happening but also a lot of money to loose if it doesn't work.

Mel hope the humira works, will be lurking to see how you get on.

We are all obviously and understandably feeling rather fed up with it all at the moment, it really wears you down. Oh to be a carefree 20 something again thinking you have loads of time to have kids.......

Arianrhod Mon 21-Jan-13 14:35:03

pebbles I'm not sure if you've thought about it, but do you know of the Serum clinic in Athens for IVF? Ladies on FF rave about it, and it works out much much cheaper for IVF than over here, even when taking into account air fares etc. Having dealt myself with Peny from Serum she's lovely, and very helpful. Just a thought.

Pebbles73 Mon 21-Jan-13 19:57:10

Thanks Ari iI did have a little look and they sound really good but can't find any sucsess rates for them but haven't discounted going abroad.

brownstag Tue 22-Jan-13 12:18:34

Duggs, just caught up with the thread and am so sorry it didn't work this time. But you are one step further, I think, in that you know you can conceive again. I find myself in two minds all the time, about which is worse, infertility or my previous recurrent early miscarriage. At least with infertility you never lose or mourn for anything, but with recurrent miscarriage you at least have hope. Although maybe that's the worst part, as I read on a blog somewhere, always carrying 'the burden of hope'.
Well, nothing going on here, literally ... my cycle seems to have stopped altogether since the laparoscopy. No ovulation or looking like anything approaching it and I'm on CD14. Has anyone else had this after a procedure? I've had a laprascopy before but wasn't ttc then so paid no attention to my cycle afterwards.

Arianrhod Tue 22-Jan-13 16:14:21

When did you have your lap brown? I've not had one myself, but had a quick chat with Dr Google and he seems to indicate the cycle immediately following a lap can be unpredictable. Not speaking from experience, though.

brownstag Wed 23-Jan-13 13:01:06

I had it on the 10th; I'm actually CD14 today; I got that wrong. I can feel something subtle going on in the ovaries though, so maybe things are revving up!

brownstag Fri 25-Jan-13 13:46:37

Oh, hurry up, you stupid womb!

Arianrhod Fri 25-Jan-13 16:25:52

Still no positive OPK brown?

Arianrhod Fri 25-Jan-13 16:26:15

Assuming you are using OPKs, of course smile

Arianrhod Fri 25-Jan-13 16:27:30

7DPO today here and no twinges of anything at all, not even any vague implantation-type pangs. Ho hum.

lemonsherbet Mon 28-Jan-13 19:16:13

How is everyone doing?

duggs hope you are doing OK after your miscarriage. Still thinking of you

brownstag Mon 28-Jan-13 19:58:54

At last, a positive OPK! All other fertility signs completely out of kilter.
Could anyone advise on the cheapest way to buy Ovitrelle please? Boots quoted me £42.

tillyann2013 Mon 28-Jan-13 20:47:42

Hello everyone, may I join you? Just about to stab myself with my first gonal f. Eeeek!

Mel3062 Tue 29-Jan-13 19:27:38

Yey brown!!Central hOmecare is £20 for ovitrelle or new life?
Welcome tillyann I've had gonal f before good luck I'm onto humira now!
I'm nearing a positive opk too but Louise said wait til after results in case I need a second lot sad that'll be another month gone sad I know it makes sense as dont want to risk another mc but its so hard sad x
Waves to all

lemonsherbet Wed 30-Jan-13 09:15:30

Hi Ladies,

I hope you do not mind me posting on here even though I never made it to SO. This is going to be a bit of a me post, sorry. I just thought most of the old timers were on here rather than the pred thread. I am sure you know that I was initially diagnosed with high NK cells and then took pred. I then went on to have a chemical pregnancy after being on treatment for quite a long time and felt that I was struggling to get pregnant on pred. Anyway last summer Mr S retested my NK cells and they had shot up (a lot) and had one of the highest counts. He suggested pred, hydroxychloroquine, SO and intralipids. At that time DH and me decided to stop all treatment rather than keep adding more and more in. We thought we would ask to be seen on the NHS in a recurrent miscarriage clinic. Anyway I have just had my 20 week scan- so despite the fact that I have not had any treatment in this pregnancy or prior to conception, I have managed to get pregnant and so far everything is going OK.

I know that Mr S works for many people but just wanted to let you know that so far for me it is working despite having no treatment. I don't want to upset anyone but since over the past 1 year you have been a source of support I just wanted to let you know.

Arianrhod Wed 30-Jan-13 09:56:18

Oh wow lemon, that's just fantastic! I'm so pleased for you, what a brilliant bit of news. So you weren't taking any meds - no pred, hydroxy, etc? I do wonder if we're not oversuppressing our systems sometimes - there has to be some inflammatory action apparently for an egg to implant. I don't know, I'm not an expert obviously! Did you start taking pred/progesterone/intralipids etc once you knew you were pregnant, or did you stay off it all? I'm so pleased!

brown Yay for that pos OPK - I always got my ovitrelle through Central Homecare for £20, but that was when buying gonal-f at the same time so delivery was free.

tillyann Welcome to the thread, and the injections aren't so bad (this from someone who HATES needles!).

Nothing doing at all for me, AF due on Fri and showing absolutely no signs of anything, so another cycle goes by without success. I'm still not doing SO and probably won't, neither am I taking pred (but I am taking Wobenzym, hoping that does something). Hoping against hope it happens sometime, but realistically speaking the odds are not at all good for me at 45.

/waves to everyone, hope you're all doing great!

Pebbles73 Wed 30-Jan-13 14:21:45

Just popping in to say congrats to Lemon what great news!!

Waves to everyone else, hope you are doing ok Duggs

lemonsherbet Wed 30-Jan-13 17:02:27

Ari I did not take anything. I had stopped aspirin, vitamin d, pred the whole lot when I feel pregnant. Restarted pregacare max (the one with activated folate in it. I am MTHFR homozygous.) when I got a BFP. Then at 12 weeks the obstetric consultant advised 75mg of aspirin every day. That is all I have taken. I do wonder if it was just a case of catching the right egg, but I do feel that the pred affected my ability to get pregnant. It was only a couple of months after stopping it I got a BFP and in the previous 12 months I had had one chemical pregnancy, on pred. Prior to that used to fall pregnant very easily. But it is difficult to know what works and what doesn't.

duggs1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 09:05:20

Wow Lemon! Amazing news and I have to say that I do feel your theory has some truth to it ! I only got a BFP after stopping all treatment. I do think DH has his sperm DNA fragmentation issues which we are tying to work on and I don't feel NK cells are my issue. VERY pleased for you lemon.

We moved house. Sold up and going into rented as just had such a tough 3 yrs ttc etc that needed a new chapter. Hideous moving weekend as I was sick hoping to exchange next few days so hoping it will hurry up and I can breath out again. If this last positive pregnancy had lasted not sure how it would be now as am a heap on exhaustion! Must go back and read old posts so sorry for not name checking shock

Mel3062 Fri 01-Feb-13 17:28:14

Just got my fsh/lh results it says subfertile sad gutted

Arianrhod Fri 01-Feb-13 21:15:19

What were your actual levels Mel? subfertile doesn't mean not fertile, remember, it may just take a little longer to get that good egg. Take heart!

Mel3062 Sat 02-Feb-13 07:16:11

Thanks ari,
When I had them done end of may at my doctors my result was 21.4 which was v high and mr s said premenopausal which scared me to death but he redid it and it had come down luckily.
Serum lh was 9.5.
Had it done this month and says serum follicle hormone is 14.3 so not the 21 as prev but can't recall what mr s said it lowered to.
Serum lh level is 4.8 and oestrodial is 111 again they hadn't done oestrodial before so mr s had to do it and can't recall what that was either. Ill post it to mr s and see what he says. I guess it's bound to take longer as I'm nearing 38 sad

lemonsherbet Sat 02-Feb-13 07:47:37

Mel the fsh and lh can fluctuate month to month, so it works as a rough guide. Did Mr S suggest an AMH to?. Together they give a better indication since the AMH does not fluctuate so much. I think they look at the LH and FSH ratio. If the LH is higher than the FSH it can mean PCOS. Which yours isn't.

Even if it does show a diminished reserve of eggs it does not mean that you can not get pregnant. Remember it just takes one egg and you hear these stories of people in there late 40's who get pregnant because they were going through the menopause so did not think they needed contraception. It just means that you should be trying to get pregnant and if you were doing ivf may give them a better idea of which drugs to use. That is how I understand it anyway.

There are also lots of supplements meant to help lower your FSH but Ari is the supplement expert so it would be worth asking her.

Mel3062 Sat 02-Feb-13 08:25:00

Thanks hun feel abit more positive now! X

brownstag Sat 02-Feb-13 10:14:57

Lemon, that's fantastic! Thanks Ari for the Ovitrelle tip. It's the delivery that bumps it up to £34 with Homecare but I've gone for that.
Mel your oestradiol levels are fine. Mr S likes them under 200. If they were over that they can artificially lower FSH.
You know you always have the option of DHEA to lower FSH. I had no side effects for a good 3 months of it although I am now quite scarred from acne from it after 7 months. I also spent half an hour yesterday plucking hair from my feet and big toes! I'm having my AMH tested again on Monday. Mr NHS consultant said he would like to see it up to 4 (from 2.1 last time) to show a consistent trend, otherwise I should think about stopping it. I'm on 50mg now (75mg before but the acne was getting out of hand).
The only good thing about it is the spots come up and go down very quickly. I like to think my face is reflecting what is going on in my ovaries and the spots are like follicles!

Mel3062 Sat 02-Feb-13 12:20:16

Thanks brownstag does mr s approve of dhea?

brownstag Sun 03-Feb-13 13:58:18

No, he doesn't. But I'm not completely convinced of his reasons, that it causes increased risk of bladder cancer, because I can't find any evidence of that. All the literature I've read suggests it's safe and well-tolerated, certainly in the short term, and that side effects are mild, if they occur at all. Let's face it, the other drugs we're taking can be associated with far more serious side effects than mild androgenic effects and there's been an ongoing debate about superovulation drugs causing ovarian cancer for years. Well, that's my take on it; obviously everyone has to make their own assessment of risk.

brownstag Sun 03-Feb-13 14:57:34

Having just found an unopened packet of agnus castus from a year or two ago, I'm thinking of taking it again. ari, did you take this while you were taking DHEA? I'm not sure if they can be taken together. And do you take it every day of your cycle? And presumably not on superovulation cycles?
I noticed some research showing it increases melatonin levels, and improves sleep, which just confirms my conviction that the insomnia I suffered after childbirth for many many months, and has been eliminated since taking DHEA, had a hormonal basis.
It seems there's a lot of research showing it has immunoregulatory action too, as well as increasing progesterone levels.

Mel3062 Sun 03-Feb-13 17:36:11

It will be interesting what mr s suggests... I've ordered some anyway I take it you stop after ovulation? Everything has risks and many have risked it to prove successful so ill try it!! X

brownstag Sun 03-Feb-13 19:50:47

If you mean the DHEA, no, you take it all the time. DHEA is a naturally occurring hormone which would be present in the body all through the cycle anyway. But presumably you stop it at a BFP.

Arianrhod Mon 04-Feb-13 09:34:10

I asked Mr S about DHEA a while back, and his comment was purely that he had tried it with a few ladies some time back and he felt it made no difference at all, so he stopped using it. It's best to take if you can be monitored while you're taking it - it can raise testosterone levels, and if yours are already fairly high then it could have an adverse effect on your ovaries/follicles. Problem is, without having your blood monitored you can't know whether it's have a beneficial effect or an adverse one. It's entirely your call but as brown says, short-term use should be no problem. I only stopped taking it because the side effects (and the fact that I wasn't being monitored) made me worry that it was having the wrong effect on me. If I could be monitored, then I'd take it again with no worries.

mel I am also deemed peri-menopausal but you know, the average lady is peri-menopausal for something like 10 years before menopause proper begins and it certainly doesn't mean you can't have a baby, it just means your egg supplies are slowing down, that's all. Well in our sort of age you'd expect that anyway, right? It doesn't mean you have no chance, and it doesn't mean you don't have good eggs still - just less of them. If you read on FF there are loads of women who have babies with impossibly low AMH readings.

I don't think any doctor knows for sure what a woman's body is capable of - keeping as fit & healthy as possible helps, and I'm told a positive mindset too (although I don't manage that most days!). I personally take a whole range of supplements designed to encourage my reproductive system to be as healthy as possible, and I am forever researching to make sure I'm taking the right things. Perhaps something of an obsession with me, but then I'm a lot older than you mel .. and I only had my DD when I was 39, which in itself was a complete surprise and the result of a one-off with my ex (stupid, stupid, but it gave me DD so I'm not complaining!). It can be done, it just takes patience.

brown Excellent, so you got your ovitrelle? Does that mean you're still doing SO? I've completely lost track of who is still doing SO and where they are in their SO journey - how many cycles have you done now, if you're still on it?

Arianrhod Mon 04-Feb-13 09:46:25

Hmm Something up with my refresh button, since I didn't see the first few posts on this page when I typed that last reply!

brown Yes I started taking AC again last cycle (just started next cycle yesterday) and yes, it's ok to take with DHEA as far as I'm aware, but not, as you say, with SuperOV or clomid, since AC will actively counterract what the SO drugs are trying to do. Having said that, 5 out of my 6 cycles of SO I didn't know this, and even with taking AC I still responded well. shrug Who knows!

Some people say only take AC up to ovulation but I personally think that's nuts - it takes 3 months to build up in your system and start working properly, if you stop it every 2 weeks it's never going to have the effect you need it to. I havce discovered since stopping it that the strong ovulation pangs I was getting every month stopped when I wasn't on AC, so I believe it was having a beneficial effect on me. Hence I started taking it again!

DHEA you should stop at BFP - but I'd be cautious about stopping it cold-turkey, I think I'd wean it off slowly, since you're basically pulling the plug on hormones your body was using if you stop it all at once, and what effect might that have on baby? I don't know. Ditto with AC - I wondered about stopping that cold-turkey on BFP, since it encourages the increase of progesterone and if you stop it dead, wouldn't your progesterone levels drop - which is an indicator to your body that you're not pregnant and it's time for your body to clear out and start again? I don't know; again, I did a lot of reading around on this, and found several women thought the same, so carried on taking AC until the end of their first trimester. I think should I be lucky enough to be properly pregnant again that I will be doing this too - every other pregnancy I stopped taking it straight away, and I wonder if this had an effect. I repeat: who knows!

tillyann2013 Mon 04-Feb-13 12:11:51

I've survived my first week on 75ml of gonal f and just had my update scan. Left 17mm, right 21mm and ut lining 9mm. He said it all looks good so its all systems go for iui on wed. blush

Arianrhod Mon 04-Feb-13 13:25:40

Nice tillyann, go for it smile

brownstag Mon 04-Feb-13 20:32:51

Ari, yes I've thought the same myself about not immediately stopping DHEA or agnus castus at a BFP.
And yes, I said I'd give it one last go of superovulation as I've never done it while on DHEA, and it would be interesting to see how that affects my responsiveness to the drugs.
I had my AMH test today along with a day 21 test. The worst experience of blood giving in my life: first the nurse showered us both with my blood from a giant spurt. The pillow was soaked; it was all over her hands and I've found it on my shoes this evening. She did the other arm and that did the same! Finally I was nearly home when she rang up and said she had put the blood in the wrong bottle and I had to go back and have it done again, thankfully taken by a different nurse. The only thing stopping me complaining is that I felt a bit sorry for the nurse, who was obviously not very experienced and very nervous, and also it was so entirely awful as to be almost funny!
Great news Tillyann!

brownstag Mon 04-Feb-13 20:36:52

Oh, meant to say, that now I know I have one blocked tube there seems a bit more point to superovulation, if I can get at least one egg from the good side rather than waste a month ovulating naturally from the wrong side.

tillyann2013 Mon 04-Feb-13 20:46:29

Thanks ladies, this is really all new to me so bit anxious. Thankfully got wed off so no need to worry about work. Is it likely to be uncomfortable afterward or do i need to do anything after? By the way what is dhea?

Mel3062 Tue 05-Feb-13 05:34:28

Ooh tillyann exciting stuff good luck!! Follies have done their job ;)
Dhea helps produce good eggs.
Thankyou ari I feel more positive and will ask mr s about dhea but yes it will be interesting to see if its made a diff with superovulation. I don't know if ill be doing that again got to wait til after humira results for next step.
Sorry to hear about your tube brownstag can it be unblocked? And that blood test geez I'd of been on the floor!!! I tried elma cream to help with my second humira injection.. Didn't work it was still ouch!!

Mel3062 Tue 05-Feb-13 05:35:31

Tillyann where are you having iui? How long was the wait? X

brownstag Tue 05-Feb-13 15:40:58

Tilllyann, sorry, I've never had IUI so I'm not sure if it's uncomfortable.

Mmm.... had my day 21 prog test results already, 24.6. Actually they weren't on day 21, they were 7 days after a positive OPK. I haven't been charting so I don't actually know exactly when I ovulated, but 24.6 either means I did ovulate, but it wasn't quite 7 days before, or I did ovulate but have low progesterone. I stopped charting because it was getting too obsessive, but it did have its advantages ...

But I started the agnus castus again today so maybe that will help if it's the latter.

brownstag Tue 05-Feb-13 17:08:50

Sorry, meant to say Mel, when the consultant did the dye test he said the tube looked healthy but that no liquid could be made to pass through it. He did say that it was possible that the liquid was passing preferentially through the left as the point of least resistance, so I assume that means they do both tubes at the same time (can't really envisage it), but I wasn't sure if he was just trying to make me feel better!
Emla cream; that brings back memories. My sister is a nurse, but the worst coward when it comes to having injections herself and virtually bathes in emla before any procedure. I must say that giving blood has never bothered me, but by the time the fourth needle was put in, after a couple of abortive attempts, and with an empty stomach, I was starting to feel a tad queasy.

brownstag Wed 06-Feb-13 19:06:43

Right, no more boils for me! My AMH results are in and they are worse than ever! 1.14. God, I wasn't expecting that. shock sad

Arianrhod Thu 07-Feb-13 10:35:13

brown So sorry to hear your latest result sad How long ago did you last have your AMH tested, and what was it then? I was just reading on FF, there's a whole subsection devoted to low AMH/high FSH (albeit mostly to do with IVF), would that help you? http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=535.0

I don't remember if you've said you'd consider IVF - I think AMH is largely irrelevant compared to how you respond to IVF drugs, if you are interested.

I have to ask ... "no more boils for me"? Boils? Did I miss something??

This journey is really very cr@ppy, no doubt about it sad

brownstag Thu 07-Feb-13 11:20:55

Thanks Ari. Boils, oh yes, boils. Since I got to 6 months on the DHEA I've been like a teenage boy at the height of puberty. Those big hard purple boils along the jawline. All the time I was deluding myself that it was a sacrifice worth making I kind of screened them out. But this morning I woke up and wondered what the hell I've done to myself. People used to remark on my having good skin. Not any more!
But I am glad I did it really; it was an experiment, and it didn't work, and that might help other people, and at least I can say I tried it and I can't regret later that I didn't do it.
I'm going to do this last superovulation treatment, clinging to the hope that even if the DHEA did not improve my AMH it might have improved egg quality. I'm going to go out with a bang: I'm going to use oestrogen pessaries before ovulation and progesterone afterwards.
But this morning I looked into doing another degree, in a language that ought to be my own but my mother never taught me. I feel life has got to move on, in a way that absorbs all the mental energy I've been putting into the pursuit of another baby. And I can teach that language to my son; if I can't pass on any more of my genetic heritage perhaps I can do so with an intellectual and cultural one.
I'm reluctant to see Mr S again in case he persuades me to have hope, and it's hope that's the real killer.
... Anyway, enough about me. How is everyone else?

Arianrhod Thu 07-Feb-13 11:56:40

brown I hear where you're coming from. And if it's any consolation, once the DHEA is out of your system your skin WILL return to normal. I have to say, it took a good couple of months, possibly three, before I felt my system was back to normal, before I saw all side-effects gone (facial hair, excess sweating, etc).

I have to say, this is exactly why I'm steering clear of another FSH test, or the AMH one. I'm 100% certain they will be rubbish, and I don't want to know, to be frank. Even with low AMH/high FSH there IS still a chance of a natural baby (assuming IVF isn't a possible route) - it doesn't mean there are no good eggs left, just less of them. But there does indeed have to come a point where you have to stop throwing your all at it, as it takes over completely.

What makes me wonder is the number of women who get a "surprise" pregnancy after they've stopped actually trying. So many people saying taking the focus off (and so reducing the stress) seems to do the trick and I suppose that may be true.

Other than doing OPKs each month (and taking my supplements of course), I've pretty much reigned it all back in. I'm not taking pred and I stopped hydroxy too (hopefully the Wobenzym is doing the trick there, but that's natural and not chemical so I don't mind taking those). And I'm not seeing Mr S right now - I can't say I definitely won't change my mind about restarting SO at some point, but not for the immediate future, certainly not this side of the summer I think. I don't have much hope myself, but I am not going to completely give up.

I think you're absolutely right in focussing your attention on the rest of your life, and learning a language is always a wonderful thing to do - especially if you can then share that with your son. Don't be a stranger though, we all would like to know how you're getting on smile

brownstag Thu 07-Feb-13 12:21:19

Thanks; yes, I know the acne itself is reversible and I've noticed when I up or reduce the dose that my skin responds within days, but the scars are more of an issue. Fortunately I'm not someone who gets 'pits' as acne scars, they are flat, but very purple!
Well, my FSH is still in the normal range, that's what's so confusing, and I also am not going to have another test because I'm quite happy with 9.7 and don't want to know when it inevitably goes higher. Similarly I should have stopped at the AMH test which said it was 2.1! Halved in two months! What was your FSH when you last had it done?
I'm also going to stop taking hydroxy as soon as I've finished this superovulation treatment.
No, I definitely won't be a stranger. Even when I've kind of given up, my mind is still pursuing another idea, like a dog with a bone ... my NHS consultant said that 30% of women respond to DHEA. So with them, reduced androgens are the cause of the low AMH. So other women have prematurely reduced ovarian reserve via some other mechanism, presumably (obviously with some of them it is just actual age) and I'm wondering if that is some kind of immunological attack on the ovarian environment, rather than a lack of adequate hormones. And so I come full circle back to the immunological theory that I have been moving away from lately. Although having said that, hydroxy clearly hasn't worked in my case!

Arianrhod Thu 07-Feb-13 15:02:18

brown - I was just reading this study of AMH http://myselfishgenes.blogspot.de/2012/08/amh-paradox.html and this is towards the end:

<quote>
Did your AMH level change (increase or decrease) after taking DHEA? I would be happy to hear from you. I did a brief search in google and found many women reporting that their AMH level became worser after taking DHEA !!!
</quote>

Hmmmmm ...

brownstag Thu 07-Feb-13 19:49:54

That's interesting; I'll have a look. What is more likely, though, is that their/my AMH has just done what it was going to anyway, i.e. deteriorate with time and the DHEA did nothing at all.
Also, I had endo surgery which involved one ovary. Apparently that often impacts badly on AMH.

brownstag Thu 07-Feb-13 20:09:35

Very interesting blog, thanks Ari, and a likeable writer. I have posted my results on the page although they are not visible until approval.
I like the fact that she sees egg quantity and egg quality as two unrelated conditions. Roll on my next cycle of superovulation! I've lost count of how many times I've picked myself up off the floor.

Arianrhod Fri 08-Feb-13 10:13:50

I know what you mean brown .. I always wonder how on earth we keep going. Good luck for the superov! smile

lemonsherbet Fri 08-Feb-13 13:22:22

brown when are you due to start your next SO cycle? I agree I think AMH just means low egg numbers but does not mean you can not get pregnant. I did not think it was a marker of quality.

Ari how is your DH doing?

Arianrhod Fri 08-Feb-13 14:06:34

lemon You're right, it's definitely not a marker of quality - it's just about how many eggs are left. But as the saying goes ... it only takes one (good) egg! Crossing fingers brown finds that good egg real soon .. smile

DH is doing ok thanks lemon, waiting to hear back the results of a test on his blood pressure where he had to wear a BP monitor for 24 hours (that wasn't conducive to a good night's sleep, I can tell you!). He is known to have high BP, but they've never bothered to treat it. Seems they'll just monitor his 'leaky' heart valve, although the angio turned up that he has a rare weird heart layout, the NHS don't seem bothered about it but I am! I'd like him to see a private heart specialist, but he won't. sad

Anyway, the funny thing is, he had quite a bad allergic reaction to the trace dye they injected him with (nothing life-threatening I hasten to add) and they put him on ... 40mg prednisolone! He had to have a month's course, weaning off now (as you do), and so he's now experienced first-hand the rubbish sleep that I always get on pred. Kind of poetic justice that he's had to go through what I did for so many months! smile

How are you doing pg-wise, lemon? All going well I hope? It's always nice to see one of us being successfully pregnant, even if it was nothing to do with Mr S's protocol!

lemonsherbet Fri 08-Feb-13 18:02:20

I am doing OK. Had a massive freak out earlier in the week when I had not felt the baby move all day. Then I used a friends doppler and could not get anything. Telephoned the midwifes in some state for me to go in there and them to listen and get the heartbeat within a minute. Then my friend said to me about the doppler it didn't always pick up the heartbeat but because her baby was moving at the time it didn't bother her.

Anyway do not think the midwifes were too impressed. The entry in my notes makes me sound like a hypochondriac!! The plus side is the hospital are giving me monthly reassurance scans.

Ari how about your herbal supplements does that give you anything like the pred induced insomnia? At least if they know your DH has a high BP they will now treat it.

brown at least you tried the dhea and know it does not make any difference. I hope your skin goes back to looking beautiful quickly. I think it is so hard you want to try everything just in case that is the "magic" cure.

brownstag Fri 08-Feb-13 20:14:53

Thanks all. Having read that blog more carefully I'm much more hopeful: the writer was saying how even though her AMH went down after DHEA she still produced far greater yields of eggs and better quality embryos (9 pre-DHEA and 24 after). So until I've hd this SO cycle, I'll reserve judgement on the DHEA. I've reduced it to 25mg, though, as a break from boils.
Ari, yes, it's amazing how sometimes doctors choose not to treat high blood pressure. My dad had it all his life really, but because he was always very highly strung, they would decide that the high readings were because he was getting agitated about it. But he was in a permanent state of agitation, in and out of the doctor's surgery, and therefore his blood pressure was always high! Now that he's reached old age, he gets treated almost automatically because of his age.
Lemon, I'm sorry the hospital made you feel like a hypochondriac; I had several scares like that but my hospital always took it seriously and were very reassuring. It always needs checking out, after all and if you've already suffered miscarriages, all the more reason to be careful.
And in answer to your question, I'm 11dpo today, so whenever AF shows her unwanted face, I'm good to go.

brownstag Fri 08-Feb-13 20:50:25

Tillyann, how did Wednesday go?

tillyann2013 Fri 08-Feb-13 21:41:11

Hi

tillyann2013 Fri 08-Feb-13 21:48:13

Oops sorry, thanks for asking brown, it went well, I think! They said the sample was really good and they could see lots of cervical fluid so here I am in the 2 ww again. How I'm gonna get through these 2 weeks is beyond me. It was over before I knew it, felt a bit weird to be honest. They've said to go ahead and dtd every other night as well to increase our chances. Can't argue with that wink

brownstag Sat 09-Feb-13 09:14:48

tillyann: great! All sounds good. Good luck!
... AF is here so that means that yes, this cycle was a bit of a duff. A ten-day luteal phase if my day 21 test was taken too early, at 6dpo, or an 11-day luteal phase if it was on time and therefore my progesterone is low. I can't have it both ways. I know 10 days is 'sufficient' but I don't like the way this is going. My shortest luteal phase for a long time.

Mel3062 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:59:53

Ooh exciting!
Lemon in our situations we are bound to be paranoid!!
Still waiting to hear from Louise :/ I have dhea at the ready and woben what not just can't get the bottle to start!! X

Arianrhod Mon 11-Feb-13 08:54:34

mel Well wobenzym has no side effects, so you could start that any time and not worry smile The worst thing I've found is working out the timing of taking them ... has to be at least 2 hours after you last ate, 45 mins before you next eat, and you can't have them when you've just had/just about to have milk! And three times a day. I'm finding the timings a pain, but just about managing it.

/waves to everyone

Mel3062 Fri 15-Feb-13 06:45:07

Still not got courage yet!!guess I'm waiting for humira result first I get blood done mon so fingers crossed no more humira!! Can't wait to start dtd again. Af arrived yesterday bang on day 28 yey so it must be pred messing them up!!
Waves to all x

Mel3062 Fri 15-Feb-13 06:46:01

Oh and I've sent a blood sample off to serum at Athens to do their tests I figured if I need ivf I need to know I've done all tests possible!!

brownstag Fri 15-Feb-13 11:27:32

It'll be interesting to see your results, Mel. I'm afraid I've become quite cynical about the Athens tests and am willing to wager you'll be positive for chlamydia, as I and several others on here were ... [hmmm]
5 days until my follicle tracking scan, with Mr Mahfouz, after 7 months of DHEA. I've come to realise that with superovulation a better response to the letrozole than I had last time isn't actually going to benefit me. Last time I had five follies, 2 or 3 of which would have been released at trigger. If it's any more than that, presumably they'd advise me not to DTD this cycle?
Now here's an interesting problem: if Mr S said you have 4 follicles there, so that's a risk of multiples; don't go ahead this month, what would you do? I know I'd want to go ahead anyway, though my DH would run a mile if he thought there was any chance of more than one! Not that I want 4, of course, but after not conceiving at all in two years, I just think I'd be lucky to get one.

brownstag Fri 15-Feb-13 11:28:09

Too many mmm's. Should have been hmm!

Arianrhod Fri 15-Feb-13 11:40:22

brown I'd do it anyway, no question. Remember that even if all 4 fertilised (unlikely) and implanted (also unlikely) you still face the normal chances that some of them may be chromosomally deficient (couldn't think of a better term) and so wouldn't be viable. Were I 20 years younger I wouldn't take that chance - but being my age, I would say there is absolutely no chance that I'm going to be having 4 perfect eggs in one go! Obviously you're younger than me, and YMMV ... but me, I'd definitely go for it.

Also remember that DHEA won't necessarily give you a better response to the Letrazole - it's not about increasing quantity, necessarily, but is supposed to improve quality.

Mel3062 Sat 16-Feb-13 07:23:46

Brown I'd go for it too!! Sorry to hear you're cynical about Athens sad I've sent sample now I just feel I have to rule everything out before I try again x

Mel3062 Sat 16-Feb-13 07:24:45

I've been so good not dtd since 18 dec it's killing me now still hopefully only a week or so to wait to get all clear god I hope so x

tillyann2013 Sat 16-Feb-13 18:21:09

Think I'm out again girls sad. I'm on on cd23, 10 days after iui and I'm bleeding.

Mel3062 Sun 17-Feb-13 06:27:02

Oh Tilly Ann sorry you're bleeding hope it turns out well for you could it be implantation still??xx

tillyann2013 Sun 17-Feb-13 08:26:50

I am so silly, stupidly got excited that iui might work first time but it seems not. sad

brownstag Sun 17-Feb-13 08:27:42

Tillyann, what's your normal luteal phase? Sounds very early for AF.
Mel, hopefully this week will go quickly ... wishing our lives away! I'm also looking forward to Wednesday. In my case after all this talk of multiple follies, there'll probably be one! Or none!
Just a note about supplements: since I've taking coenzyme q10 and selenium, I've been healing really quickly. When I had my op a few weeks ago, I had to take the dressing off after 3 days and the wounds looked about 2 weeks old and one of them is now completely invisible. Similarly the old acne spots go very quickly, sadly to be replaced immediately by new ones. Hopefully that means something good is going on inside as well.

tillyann2013 Sun 17-Feb-13 09:16:32

15 days usually. You think the drugs can mess up the cycle?

Sounds like the supplements you're taking are working well x

Mel3062 Sun 17-Feb-13 12:53:14

I agree with brownstag it seems too early for af ;/
Yes wishing life away but not so fast this week it's half term and loads to do oh and have abit of me time too!!
Hope we'd is good for you brown xx

brownstag Sun 17-Feb-13 17:06:43

Yes, I'm sure drugs can mess up your cycle Tillyann; what are taking exactly? I've never had IUI. Are you using progesterone?
Thanks mel, working this weekend actually, but just slipped in a bit of reading while DH and DS are out.
I have a follow-up appointment at the hospital tomorrow after my lap and dye. I suppose I ought to think of some questions to ask ...
Good luck everyone!

brownstag Sun 17-Feb-13 18:11:09

ari, do you take l-arginine? I give to my DH when I remember but haven't tried it myself.

tillyann2013 Sun 17-Feb-13 21:08:01

No, no progesterone. Gonal f and trigger. Bleeding has now stopped. Ffs. Don't know what's going on.

Arianrhod Mon 18-Feb-13 07:55:59

Hi brown ... yes, I do take l-arginine after reading about it being good for the endometrium and providing a 'healthy uterine environment'. Read it in lots of places, but here's one for example: http://natural-fertility-info.com/uterine-health-for-fertility.html

snippet relating to l-arginine specifically:

<quote>
L-Arginine
L-Arginine promotes synthesis of Nitric Oxide (NO). Nitric Oxide is naturally produced by the body and is important for blood dilation, increases blood flow to the uterus, ovaries and genitals. L-Arginine promotes a healthy environment for implantation.
</quote>

Arianrhod Mon 18-Feb-13 08:01:07

Oh, and from the 'increase egg quality' page of the same site:

<quote>
L-arginine
L-arginine is an amino acid that has been shown in studies to increase ovarian response, endometrial receptivity, and pregnancy rates in IVF patients who supplemented in large doses of L-arginine. (Published in Human Reproduction 1999).
</quote>

Arianrhod Mon 18-Feb-13 08:04:32

Incidentally it was that site that convinced me to use Wobenzym, rightly or wrongly I don't know but it doesn't seem to be having any side effects so I'm ok with it right now.

Arianrhod Tue 19-Feb-13 15:26:46

clabbage The chlamydia test alone is 100 euros, if you add in the additional '7 in 1' infections testing it's an extra 170 euros. I chose to get tested for the lot, and I'm glad I did, even if it hasn't helped me get/stay pregnant. It's easy enough to get tested; you need one of those urine sample tubes (you can get one from most chemists I think; I had one left over from my GP from many, many times of getting tested for UTIs!) and some saline (I used saline drops from Boots). I think you just need a teaspoon of blood. I posted mine off via normal post (I think I sent it International Recorded, but you don't need to) and it got to Serum within about 5 days. When they've got the sample they email you for payment which you can do by bank transfer or Paypal - I used Paypal. Then they email you with the results and if you need it, a prescription for any medications necessary.

If you want to know, this is what they look for in the '7 in 1' tests:

<quote>
an 'ordinary' test for Chlamydia Trachomatis;
a test of total bacterial load, which measures the level of 'good bugs' (lactobacillae) – a reduced population tends to indicate an abnormal vaginal environment caused by another, more hostile, bacteria, such as E-coli, Proteus etc.;
Ureaplasmas;
2 species of Mycoplasmas – Mycoplasma Genitalium and Mycoplasma Hominis;
2 other Bacterial Vaginosis species – Gardnerella Vaginalis and Atopobium Vaginae).
</quote>

Hope that helps!

Arianrhod Tue 19-Feb-13 15:27:24

@rse, posted that on the wrong thread, was supposed to be on the Pred thread! Sorry ladies ... blush

Mel3062 Tue 19-Feb-13 19:39:26

I've just done that ari!;) x

Pebbles73 Tue 19-Feb-13 21:09:41

Hi all, thought I would just pop in and give you a wave. Have been lurking still to see how you are all doing.

Wondered how you found the Humira Mel ? Will be lurking to see how you get on with your blood test results.

Tiilyann hoping the iui works out for you and welcome to the thread.

Brown how did you get on with your results today?

Lemon hope all is still going well with you and great they are going to give you regular scans.

Ari how is everything with you? Have been reading your posts with interest and hope all the supplements do thier trick for you. Your very good with all the researching. smile

Well I was due to see Mr S last week to finally get my results but the weather was bad and snowing and they were saying heavy snow in my area so I ended up cancelling. Going to see him on the 7th March and once sorted humira need to decide where having ivf. Need to decide if I have one last go and spend it on the ARGC or go sonewhere cheaper meaning we could have two more try's....,.

Waves to anyone I have missed and to Duggs if you are lurking.

Arianrhod Tue 19-Feb-13 21:52:25

Good to hear from you pebbles! Sorry your results got snowed off .. which results are you still awaiting? Is humira for raised TNFa? I was just reading about that today, apparently it's one of the things people take Wobenzym for.

I like the idea of having two tries rather than one, but you have to be comfortable with the choice of clinic. If Serum is a consideration for you, do you know you can email Peny to discuss it with her even if you don't then choose to go there? Just a thought, she's very helpful.

Absolutely nothing doing here .. again. In 2ww at the mo, I'm either 4 or 5dpo and nothing of anything going on. Yes I know it's a bit early, but still! smile

Mel3062 Tue 19-Feb-13 23:00:07

Hi pebbles ;) had blood test yesterday so praying my 2 humira shots have been enough really want to dtd again!!
Yes it's for high tnf alpha ari mine was 54 and should be 30 something umm maybe I will take Wobenzym then!!!
I take it you're awaiting tnf results pebbles?
I think we may end up at serum if humira doesn't help us, how long do you give it before ivf? Lucies 19 in sept times running away sad
Where's argc? Can anyone go privately?
X

Mel3062 Tue 19-Feb-13 23:05:41

Humira was ok but stings so try some elma cream! I've still not slept great, don't know if that's down to the humira or not!
Full of cold and awful sore throat at mo even though I've had flu jab sad

brownstag Wed 20-Feb-13 14:14:56

Just read that IVF is supposed now to be offered to women of up to 42 on the NHS, as long as they haven't had IVF before. Who would that affect on here? Not sure if that covers secondary infertility (prob not) but I shall ask my consultant when I see him. Went on Monday, but it was the wrong month! 18th March, not 18th Feb!
Thanks for asking, Pebbles. Had my scan with Mr Mafouz today. He's such a sweetie. Inga, his nurse/secretary, was away and it took him about half an hour to do the most basic typing. He apologised for being too old to learn these things.
Anyway, 2 big follies and 4 small ones. Endometrium only 6.57 but he said it looked nice and had a triple layer which was what he was looking for. So overall a similar/slightly worse result than last year, but then, it was a while ago. Better than no eggs anyway!
Mr Mafouz said sometimes the dye test can help relax tubes that are in spasm and can help you get pregnant. Also, amazingly, he said rarely an egg released on the right can be picked up by the tube on the left (or vice versa)!
ari, l-arginine coming up! It sounds like my endometrium needs it.
Good luck with that humira result, Mel and Tillyann, it sounds very promising.

Arianrhod Wed 20-Feb-13 14:23:15

Not me brown sad Too old for NHS-funded IVF, sadly. Great news on the follies, so that's 2 for definite that are in with a chance, and possibly others may grow? When do you have to do trigger shot? Interesting to hear about the dye test, I didn't know about that. And you might want to throw in Vitamin E too (as per the link earlier), I take both.

Mel3062 Wed 20-Feb-13 14:53:22

Yey brown ;) sounds good. Ivf funding is non existent in my area but I have Lucie so I can't have it anyway x

Breezyweezy Wed 20-Feb-13 17:59:17

Hi ladies. It's been a while, but I need to rant to others who understand my frustrations.

I had my NHS fertility appointment a few weeks back and the Dr I saw was nice and said oh yes you will have to have IVF you have been through so much, but I'll need to discuss with my colleagues and I'll call you in 3 days time. Next appointment to refer for IVF booked for end of April. She calls today 2 weeks later to tell me that actually upon discussion, no I can only get 3 IUIs on the NHS and that's it. Apparently no IVF (where I am you can get 3 goes) as my AMH is too low, but IUI is better for me and has more chance of working than IVF! You have to be kidding me??? I am absolutely furious and distraught. Unfortunately my Drs was just closing as I got there tonight, but I want to find out where I stand on this. I don't think they even tested my AMH and believe they just took my private result from last summer. It seems every possible obstacle that can be put in my way is put there...miscarriages, uterine septum, very high NKCs, low AMH, and now this. I have been living this nightmare for 4 and a half years and each time I think we might take a step closer to the dream of having a baby, wham we get knocked back. I don't know how much more of this I can take. I have given up with the SO, pred, hydroxy and various other supplements as I don't see the point. We have the funds to go privately but them my OH just doesn't seem keen, so i may just have to book the appointments and tell him to turn up!! Ari he is a little like yours I believe in that he tries to blank out anything to do with the whole TTC debacle and isn't interested, which makes it even more difficult and depressing for me. Anyway, apologies for the ranting and raving I am just a little upset!!

Brown glad to hear follie scan went well. Mr Mahfouz is lovely. I have seem him twice for scans. Let's hope this is the month!

Mel how long does it take to get your tnf alpha re-test results back? And if all is well can you just get right back in the saddle, as they say?

Pebbles where did you go before for your previous IVF cycles? Any advice for me on clinics? Obviously ARGC would be wonderful but perhaps not the best one to start out with..

Waves to all!

Pebbles73 Wed 20-Feb-13 18:51:59

Yes Ari going for my tnf alpha results which I know are going to be high as was asked to go and see Mr S. I need to get him to explain it all a bit for me! Thanks for the info about Penny, I keep looking at other places and coming back to ARGC. The success rates for my age are 50% as opposed to around 24 - 28% elsewhere so a big difference! I could go back to Oxford as managed to get two positive results which ended in a chemical and miscarriage prob due to high nkc's. can't believe I am still ttc after all these b****y years!!!

Mel it's really up to you and what's recommended as to when to have ivf. For me I never got pregnant naturally so ivf was only way forward. The ARGC is a private clinic in London that gets the best results by miles. They are also the most expensive but specialise in difficult cases and immune issues, it's very intensive though with loads of scans and blood tests.
Hope you are feeling better soon and get to ttc!

Good luck Brown, sounds like a good follie result.

Breezy sorry to hear you are having a hard time with the nhs, sadly ivf seems to be a bit of a post code lottery and have read of people moving and everything to get it. I understand how you feel as I have been ttc on and off for the last ten years and am 40 thus year so coming to the end for me although hard to come to terms with.
I had ivf at Hammersmith which I wouldn't reccomend as didn't have a great experience after having a chemical pregnancy( never heard of it at the time) as very busy place and everyone was generally foreign with rubbish English!! I was then able to transfer to Oxford which was a far better experience, it wasn't very busy and is a private clinic rather than hospital, everyone there was lovely. The ARGC is the place to go for best results, a friend of mind went to the Lister and she got her bfp second time and said they were great.

Breezyweezy Wed 20-Feb-13 19:17:19

Pebbles I keep coming back to ARGC too. I downloaded and filled in their appointment form back in October but never sent it off. It may be popping in an envelope very soon!! The Lister was also on my list, so may make an appointment there to see what they are like. I went to see CRM near Regent's Park back in October as they are about 10 minutes from me. Am sure they are great, but the consultant tried to push the donor egg route with us from the off and that's not something I am prepared to look at, at least not at the moment. Also saw Dr Gorgy, but was so overwhelmed by his list of testing that I never went back! I've got Friday off from my jury service so shall be spending the day researching clinics.

Pebbles73 Wed 20-Feb-13 19:41:26

It is hard to know where to go and different viroid re condos different places! I feel like I am in the last chance saloon and ARGC seems the best place for me also particularly as most places don't have great results at my age. Do you mind me asking how old you are? Also can't remember if you have difficulties getting pregnant or it is more miscarrying that is the problem?
I hear you about all the testing and it seems they generally test must thinks with steroids, intralipids etc anyway....god it is all such a nightmare!

Breezyweezy Wed 20-Feb-13 20:04:31

I totally agree. One person says go here, whereas another says no, no they're rubbish, go here!! A total minefield!
Of course I don't mind you asking how old I am!! I will be 35 in April, a spring chicken really, but with the AMH levels of some one almost menopausal at 0.63pmol. When we first started out on this mountainous road, I got pg quickly, first time within 3 months but had a mmc discovered at 11 weeks. Then it took about 18 months till the next pg, but we weren't trying too much as my job got in the way and the mmc hit me for six. That ended in mc at 7.5 weeks then 4 months later after doing 3 months traditional chinese medicine got pg but mc at 8.5 weeks. 2 year anniversary of last mc coming up and not had a sniff since, although we did have to wait while we had RMC at St Mary's (waste of time!) and an op to remove uterine septum, which according to them was my problem hmm. So it's been 16 months trying since then and nothing at all. Tried the pred, nothing except a stone extra in weight! Tried hydroxy, then SO when Mr S told me my AMH back in August, but admittedly only 4 goes as stopped after Christmas. I can't get time off court to go for follicle scans at moment and also didn't want the drugs interfering with the nhs tests I was having. Think we are just going to have to bite the bullet and go for IVF privately.
My acupuncture lady keeps saying we should try again with herbs and the like, but I don't know if we really have the time for that and probably the money would be better spent moving straight to IVF.
I just wish we all had a crystal ball...

Pebbles73 Wed 20-Feb-13 20:43:42

You are a spring chicken! smile I know it's a lot of money and you do still have some time but if I was you I think I would go straight for ivf and not waste time as you may end up regretting hanging around. I took to long to push for help and we moved around quite a bit for a while and each time I would have to back to square one with the doctors and getting testing.
It must be very frustrating for you getting pregnant initially, I assume you have high nkc's?

I tried accupuncture for a while while having ivf and got all my bfp's when not having it and a negative while having it so gave up on that route although seems to work well for some people.

Ahh yes I think we have all wished for one if those at some point or another on here...

duggs1976 Wed 20-Feb-13 21:40:16

Ahh my breezy and pebbles..my follow ivf hoverers! Im hearing you ladies.. I have to say ARGC is top of my list. They test each month so u really do have the best chance for you! It is expensive though but comparatively speaking I would say extra cost is outweighed by better results.

I've stopped SO, pred, hydroxy everything for a while now. it wasn't making any difference as far as I could tell.

Pebbles73 Wed 20-Feb-13 22:07:58

Great to hear from you Duggs, I also stopped taking everything after my last super ov round in November. Has been lovely having my life back for a while and drinking loads of coffee and wine if I fancy it without worrying! I am starting to feel its time to get going again although because of needing humira will be a while yet.
When are you starting ivf, you are doing one on nhs soon aren't you?

Just a general question, I have been left with what I assume is adult acne since taking pred quite badly on one cheek which is really red. Has anyone else had this? Have never had amazing skin but it was doing ok and now hate seeing myself without make up!! sad

Mel3062 Thu 21-Feb-13 05:41:28

Sorry to hear that breezy weezy hope it all gets clarified for you you're right to seek another advice.
Hoping my result doesn't take too long and hopefully yes try again before ivf though don't know how many months to try without ivf but obviously hope all this will be enough so don't need expense of Ivf. I did think about serum for ivf but I think I'm best going where the results are highest!!
Reading about argc sounds the only option though you need to practically live there unless it was during school hols that's the only way I'd get all the time off!! Has anyone had ivf with mr s or does he recommend argc?
Itl be interesting knowing your levels pebbles.
Hope Tilly is ok too.

duggs1976 Thu 21-Feb-13 06:29:04

winkMel of course mr s practically kept out of his chair when he knew I was doing IVF elsewhere not with him/ his clinic dr gafar does it. There r limited stats as so new but the staff r made up from other clinics. Up to you but personally unless you prefer it don't see what is to gain really from going with m c clinic ? There may be other experiences but haven't heard any on here.

Arianrhod Thu 21-Feb-13 08:55:43

Completely neutral here on the where-to-go-for-IVF debate because OH won't even consider IVF, even if we did have the money (which we don't), but have been reading the FF boards for yonks and they're mostly doing IVF. ARGC definitely does seem to get excellent reviews (not I believe for my age range though? don't know) and I think CARE is supposed to be good too, as is the Lister. Bear in mind also that Dr Gafar was at ARGC so will have the expertise of that clinic; means New Life might be a possibility if it fits in better with people's travel plans etc.

breezy totally understand the rant - I was making derogatory comments at the TV last night while watching the item on the news about IVF now being able to be offered to ladies up to the age of 42 on the NHS. Like, Yeah right, but not everyone will be able to get it, even if NICE say they should. And the fact that you only get one go - what's that about? 3 goes if you're under 39, but only 1 up to 42? It takes a few goes to get the best protocol sometimes, so how does one attempt help anyone? Unbelievable.

Do carry on with the IVF discussions ladies, even if it's not SO it's all ver interesting, as one who would be doing IVF like a shot if I could!

brownstag Thu 21-Feb-13 10:17:48
Arianrhod Thu 21-Feb-13 10:33:08

Wow, that's quite something brown. Still, Australia is a long way to go to get IVF, and I can't see it getting here any time soon sad

brownstag Thu 21-Feb-13 11:43:20

But surely they will patent it and sell it everywhere?

Arianrhod Thu 21-Feb-13 12:35:28

Mmm ... how long though, it's still in trials? 5 years?

brownstag Thu 21-Feb-13 13:36:51

Would they have to wait 5 years in a case like that? It's not a drug.
This morning I was wondering why we really need the scan, or even the trigger injection, for superovulation. After you've had one or two goes, and you know generally how you're going to respond, and when, and there's no danger of overstimulation, why not take the letrozole on its own? When I was prescribed clomid on the NHS, they said take it and have sex days 10 to 20. That would cover it. And save £250 a cycle! Although I do like looking at my ovaries for some reason ... when I had my lap and dye, they had some photos in a file that they took during the op which I grabbed and inspected. I was expecting an ovary to be lumpy, but mine was smooth (day 23), probably reflecting the lack of follicles. grin

Breezyweezy Thu 21-Feb-13 18:05:40

Brown very interesting article indeed. I know exactly what you mean about the necessity of the scan and trigger shot with SO. On my crap response cycle I went for a scan on day 9 with Mr Mahfouz and there was only 1 follicle at 13mm so he said to come back 3 days later on the Monday for another scan. I thought god another £220, but later that day got a call from Louise saying no further scan needed, just do the trigger shot on the Monday and go for it. It's all just a bit of a guess as to when to do the trigger shot anyway, at least in my opinion.

When I had my NHS appointment the other week, the Consultant informed me that I had been "ripped off" as "there is no point to SO unless you do IUI at the same time". Hmm... I don't actually believe from what I have read that IUI is any different to normal timed intercourse when there are no issues with sperm. I really couldn't be bothered to argue with her in case it reduced my chances of IVF, but now I wish I had!!

Duggs It's like I'm in limbo at the moment. Do we just keep cracking on with timed sex, cause let's face it after a bloody long time there isn't much desire to be spontaneous? Or do I stop dragging my heels and book a couple of initial appointments and get on with IVF? The optimist in me always says this could be the month it works, then the realist says just get on and book the appointment and stop wasting time!! Or do I go back and do the last 2 goes at SO and cross fingers that it works? After all I have the letrozole sitting doing nothing in a drawer. And I think I might just go back to plain old folic acid and that's it. After all that was all I took when I got pg before. Still too scared to take the DHEA but that might change soon!

When I spoke about looking at IVF a while back with Louise the first thing she said was don't go to ARGC, come here! I hadn't even mentioned where I was looking at. Mr Gafar is lovely and I am sure they would be fantastic and they know my history, but for me New Life is a bit far to go being in NW London and I am lazy! ARGC is a 10 min bus ride away. Ari yes, a few people have mentioned CARE so I will have a look at them too. A night of googling and DTD ahead for me!!

Pebbles luckily I didn't get too many bad spots on the pred, but recently had a couple of stinkers. Of course I made them worse by picking at them, but found putting Bio oil on them helped them heal faster and also reduced the scaring somewhat too. Perhaps worth a try?

Pebbles73 Thu 21-Feb-13 22:34:27

Ari I have considered ivf at the miscarriage clinic because Mr Gafar has worked at the ARGC but not having any success rates to go on makes it a bit risky. Mmmm who knows! confused

Interesting article Brown, could probably go to Australia and have ivf for the same price as going to ARGC! wink. Also I agree re the super ov, in December I just took the letrezole and dtd when I had signs of ovulation.

Breezy thanks for the tip on
the bio oil, I have been using a rosehip oil by Trilogy as read reviews that it got rid of acne scars but realised the other day on the back if the bottle it says not to use on broken skin. As the acne is still active thought I beat stop using that as maybe making it worse!

BellyD Thu 21-Feb-13 22:36:03

Hi all, I have been lurking. Breezyweezy sorry you had such a frustrating day yesterday, this is def the right place to rant. We have been looking at ivf too, and in Jan went to see Create who are supposedly better for more 'mature' ladies and offer a slightly more natural ivf approach. A friend of mine got lucky with them aged 41 on her 2nd cycle having had 2 unsuccessful attempts at the Lister. We then went to see George Ndukwe at Zita West - he has come from Care in Nottingham, trained under Alan Beer and (which I found a huge relief) has personal experience of mc which made him far more sympathetic than Mr S or Dr G. We are going to have ivf with him in May. I would def consider the Argc but don't think they would consider me due to my low amh and they like you to have an fsh near or below 10 before they let you cycle, which definitely counts me out. Having said that - I am a bit sceptical about FSH and AMH levels having got pregnant in both May and Sept last year on SO albeit without ultimate success. Don't want to overload you with research but I hope it helps in finding the right clinic for you.

duggs1976 Fri 22-Feb-13 06:24:14

Oh shall we rename or restart a new thread -"the remaining few who have singlehandedly bought dr s a new Bentley from SO cycles alone now moving into IVF in desperate attempt to become mothers" - wonder how many followers we'd get? Interesting about IVF clinics . . Also interesting theory that SO actually interferes with natural egg ripening process so although 2 follicles the quality is compromised. Can't remember who found that research but its interesting. I'm waiting to start IVF prob in next couple of mths. I was at LWC for my last round, which worked but I mc twins remember despite all dr s stuff and intrallipids and dr g found my NK Levels to be normal so I don't attribute my issues to NK cells. ARGC is def on my list as if this doesn't work (is NHS queen charlotte and Chelsea so no choice) then will try final attempt this summer. Am interested in dr ndwuke is it expensive?

Mel3062 Fri 22-Feb-13 06:50:39

Oh what a minefield and me being in York and all these fab clinics are in London!! Think ill be staying with my sister in Coventry for a while!!

Mel3062 Fri 22-Feb-13 06:51:15

Sorry what's lwc?

brownstag Fri 22-Feb-13 06:54:10

Pebbles, do you think your acne is rosacea rather than ordinary acne? If it's just on one cheek and very red it sounds more like that. In which case you need different products on it. Do your spots sometimes look like pimples but not actually come to anything? My mum and nan-in-law both have it. My mum finds Salcura very good. It's a urea-based range. And also you should avoid sunlight, which for my mum is the main trigger. She uses a special sunblock all year round. Plus avoid spicy foods, alcohol, etc.

brownstag Fri 22-Feb-13 07:18:16

How much does IUI cost with Mr S? I'm supposedly ovulating today but on letrozole my CM is like glue and no sperm would be able to swim through it. I'm wondering if IUI would be a better option, and cheaper than IVF.
Duggs, have you had your AMH tested? (You must have done, I remember the length of that list you showed us when we met up!)
I really feel for all you ladies embarking on the IVF route. Like ari, I'd be there with you if funds allowed. And, as importantly, if my OH was more enthusiastic/prepared to risk losing the cash.
I think it was BreezyWeezy talking about the dilemma of what to do: I realised the other day that I don't regret any of the money I've already spent on this (but admittedly it's not a great deal in the big scheme of things), even though nothing has happened. I don't regret the acne I've caused myself with the DHEA. I'm much more scared of regretting what I didn't do. Which at the moment includes IVF ...

duggs1976 Fri 22-Feb-13 08:52:36

Brown I did IUI with dr s ( dr gafar actually last feb) it was £750 I think. I justified it as another £500 ontop of the £250 it would cost for SO. Lwc is London women's clinic. I like your philosophy brown. I did have FSH 3.2 ,AMH 24.9 and LH 2.8 but that was sep 2010 so I think the NHS are going to re test me. I don't really know what that means I mis confess I am not clued up in the area?

Arianrhod Fri 22-Feb-13 09:15:45

duggs LMAO at your thread retitle, I'd follow it! smile V interested in all the IVF talk, so keep it going ladies.

brown I'm with you on not regretting what I've spent so far (and still spending, have you seen the price of Wobenzym?!), I just wish (like you) I could give IVF a couple of gos. And that my OH would be even vaguely enthusiastic about it all. I think he's just plain not bothered whether we have a baby or not, and it's just me keeping it going. Come on, Lottery win .. smile

What are the success rates for IUI, does anyone know, perhaps compared to IVF?

brown If you have CM issues due to SO why not use Pre-seed? Should help your OH's wrigglies get right where they need to be. If you're ovulating right now and need something today, I understand Boots sell 'Conceive Plus' which I believe is much the same as Pre-seed.

I read good things about George Ndukwe too, he's certainly one that I would consider if I could do IVF.

Interesting reading, ladies, just wish we could all get what we all so strongly deserve this year and turn this into a support for pregnancy thread, IYKWIM!

Pebbles73 Fri 22-Feb-13 13:25:59

Thanks for your info Belly that's really interesting, do you know what the success rates are like at Zita West and if you don't mind me asking what the prices are like? I imagine like the ARGC it is one of the more expensive places....

Duggsloving the possible thread title! grin

I will have to have a look into that Brown, they are kind of hard bumps but some do get little heads on them but a bit more like rash kind of spots so you could be right. I have mild eczema so I guess the two can be related, thanks for the info.

brownstag Fri 22-Feb-13 18:50:33

ari, yes, I have Conceive Plus, but you can only put it where you can get to, not inside your cervix! The old wigglies would be able to get as far as the entrance hall only.
Duggs, thanks for the info. And your results all sound ideal, so good that I'd be surprised if they have deteriorated much in three years.
... With the ARGC, if they are eliminating people with dodgy AMH, and presumably other reasons, aren't their results falsely high?
Pebbles, that does sound like what my mum has. If she uses the sunblock and moisturiser though, you'd hardly know it was there.

BellyD Fri 22-Feb-13 20:17:15

Hi Pebbles I am embarrassed to say but I don't know how expensive Zita West is for ivf, and not because we have an endless pot of money (because we don't) but more because we have only had an initial consult and also because we figure it is going to be hideously expensive regardless, so want to go with someone we have confidence in. Will call them and ask as it would be useful info for anyone trying to decide. Having said that Create is quite a bit cheaper, as a private option, as they don't use as many drugs and it is gentler on your body, so there is a less pricey expensive option out there.
Brownstag I think there is a big element of truth in what you say about the argc's success stats, they do say no to people. A friend of mine got turned down by them as she had previously suffered a dvt, however they do monitor you to an insane degree and even if their success figures are artificially inflated to some degree they do have incredible success rates

Pebbles73 Sat 23-Feb-13 11:54:47

Thanks for the info on Create Belly have been having a thorough look at thier website and am loving the idea of the more natural ivf! I have always suffered with ohss on my past cycles so think this could be a really good way forward for us. Loving the cheaper prices to meaning we could have a few tries with them. Am going to book a consultation with them and actually feel a bit enthusiastic for the first time in a while!! smile.

Have looked out my old blood tests akthought they are from 2008 and my fsh was 6.3 and LH was 5.9, not that knowledgable on this kind of thing but think that is good although could probably totally different by now!!

duggs1976 Sat 23-Feb-13 14:19:19

How exciting pebbles...loving this info sharing ladies.
I might check out care too now .. I'm on CD 34 really late 17 dpo but whiter than White on pregnancy tests so no idea what is going on!?

duggs1976 Sat 23-Feb-13 14:19:59

Opps mis read create ok will check them out x

Mel3062 Sun 24-Feb-13 07:24:36

Aw duggs I know that feeling hope you get an answer soon sad think ill write a pro and con list of ivf clinics today ;) xx

mollieboo Mon 25-Feb-13 14:31:37

Hi ladies, I have been reading some of the thread re ivf etc. I recognise some of you from the prednisolone thread. Hope you don't mind me posting for some opinions if anyone has one about my situation please.

I'm convinced I've got an 'unfussy uterus' as I keep getting pregnant on the first attempt and then miscarrying. I've been diagnosed with high NKC but have miscarried twice on treatment. The last mc was a blighted ovum and I conceived using superovulation. Are any of you of the opinion that superovulation can actually produce a bad egg because it unnaturally makes your body produce the eggs rather than by natural selection?

I've never had dh's sperm tested because doctors always say its a problem with me, also we did have our ds so I don't know if that makes a difference to doctors' opinions.

I'm on Mr Shehata's treatment plan and I don't think he buys into the unfussy uterus theory. Think we'll give it one more go on the plan and if we fail go for an ivf consultaltion as I don't know anything about it at the moment for my situation. Just wondering if any of you think ivf would help? We are starting to wonder if it would be good for us so that they could carefully select an egg and healthy sperm, but I guess I would also need to be on nk cells treatment too so that I wouldn't miscarry. Any opinions or advice appreciated.

Btw is anyone exhausted with all the emotional turmoil they are going through or is it just me? I am just recovering from an mc but its so hard to keep going all of the time!

brownstag Mon 25-Feb-13 15:05:11

Mollieboo, sorry to hear about your mc. Yes I agree with a lot you've said. I have read research showing that superovulation leads to more eggs being produced of a doubtful quality. If I could afford it I would have IVF like a shot; my NHS consultant said that was my best option as all other influences are controlled: you've just to got implantation to worry about. I've personally become more and more sceptical about the importance of high NK cells, although I do take hydroxy but only because it gives me no side effects and I've got nothing to lose. I think I'd like to know what NK levels are to be found in fertile women who don't miscarry. This scepticism is despite successfully carrying a baby to term on pred. I would use the pred though if I were to do IVF, as it would be stupid to risk it. Yes, definitely exhausted, though thankfully I don't have mcs any more to deal with, just secondary infertility.

Mel3062 Mon 25-Feb-13 17:45:27

Hi all,
Well still awaiting humira result but now got awful sinititus and on amoxicillin and nose spray sad hope these ok for ttc. Feel so rotten sad x should be getting Greece results soon though
Sorry to hear of mc Molly sad

Breezyweezy Mon 25-Feb-13 20:33:00

Evening all,
duggs love that idead for a thread. I'd certainly join it and am sure there would be a fair few others who would too!! Sorry to hear you're having a wtf cycle.

Thanks so much to you all for letting me rant away on here. You have been very helpfiul giving advice on clinics. Belly thanks for throwing Create into the mix too. I hadn't even looked at them, but spent a good while on their website over the weekend and am very interested in their approach, especially the IVM side of things. ARGC had been top of my list, however after reading various things, with my low AMH, I don't think it will be the best clinic for me. My FSH is just under 10, but perhaps pumping myself full of drugs and still ending up with very few eggs is not the best plan for me.

Brown if I were you I'd try some preseed with the applicators. I got some Conceive plus just to make a change last month, but didn't like it as it goes all sticky after a little while and you cant get it where you need it. Preseed seems to stay more watery and with the applicators you can get it in right where you need it! I am rather tight though and do what they say you shouldn't and re-use the applicators after washing in very hot water. The 9 that come with it just arent enough for what's in the tube!!

Pebbles have you booked your Create consult yet? I saw they have an open day on 16th March and was tempted to go and have a look around, but have decided to just book an actual consultation so off to Harley St on 14th March. Also looked at The Lister as read on FF that they are great for low AMHers so off there on the 14th March too. I will then compare and make a choice which one to go for. Quite excited actually!

mollie so sorry to hear about your mc. As brown said, she posted a link a while back to some research about SO and the quality of eggs produced – an interesting read. It could be worth having a consultation at an IVF clinic and bring up your concerns with them. I always think it's a good idea to get second opinions. Have you had any genetic testing done after any of your mc? And in answer to being exhausted...completely, totally and utterly. I wonder if all the pain and disappointment is worth it and if we will ever get to have a baby. Sometimes I think it would be better to give up and just get a puppy, but we keep going don't we and hope that one day we might be lucky!!

Mel sorry to hear you are feeling rubbish and hope you feel better soon.

mollieboo Tue 26-Feb-13 09:23:15

Thanks for your replies. brownstag sorry to know that you're going through secondary infertility. I know so many on here have got their babies after nk cells treatment but yes it would be really interesting to know how many normal women have raised levels too. Interesting how your consultant put it, ivf does sound really attractive at mo.

mel hope you feel lots better soon.

breezy I will give it one more bash naturally and then go for an ivf consultation. All so expensive! No I haven't had any tissue testing, all mcs except last one were natural but this time I didn't want an erpc so couldn't get tested. Have had karyotyping tests on me and dh though. Have got a crazy bulldog pup, got him 2 mcs ago, he has been amazing for us but still doesn't stop me wanting babies. Fab to have something to look after though!

I'm feeling pretty run down and fluey at mo so I'm not sure whether to wait a month as advised or just start trying as soon as I ovulate. It never works anyway so does it really matter?!

Hope everyone is doing ok and gets good news soon.

Arianrhod Tue 26-Feb-13 11:44:22

Agree with breezy on the pre-seed, doubly so with the applicators not being anywhere near enough. You used to be able to buy separate applicators apparently, but can't anymore sad I only suggested conceive plus because brown was due to ovulate RSN and I don't know anywhere you can buy pre-seed in a store, I've only ever seen it online.

mollie Welcome, and again so sorry for your loss. Like brown if finances permitted I'd be doing IVF tomorrow, having come this far and done so much including SO, with nothing working so far. Unfortunately it's a huge expense but if your finances do allow, it might be worthwhile pursuing.

breezy Loving the 'wtf cycle' expression! I'm having one of those myself right now sad due, I think, to the maca I've been taking for the past 5.5 weeks - or at least, if it's not that, I haven't got a clue. I got strong cramps all evening at 8dpo and again, a bit lighter, 9dpo. And started getting all hopeful, like you do, thinking possibly implantation pains. Bbs were moderately sore, but then I often get that from ovulation anyway, so that isn't an indicator. However, 10dpo yesterday, as well as cramps I started spotting, and this morning the bbs are no longer sore at all - not even a bit. So I can only assume this means AF is coming some 4 days early - WTF indeed! sad If it weren't for the bbs having completely stopped hurting (remember I'm not on pred, so no masking of symptoms) I might still hold a little hope, but bbs that hurt and then stop generally means progesterone levels dropping - and that can only mean imminent AF.

I'm p*d off as I didn't read anywhere that maca could give you early AFs. Will be doing some more research; I will continue taking it for another month as apparently it's an adaptogen, so perhaps my body just needs to adapt to it. But if I get another early AF that'll be my trial of maca over! angry

Just out of interest, what is Create's success rate for 'older ladies' with their natural IVF when compared to, say, ARGC or Lister's figures for 'older ladies', does anyone know?

brownstag Tue 26-Feb-13 15:06:07

ari, I felt the same on my last cycle with only just ten days for a luteal phase, despite starting agnus castus again; since having medicated cycles I'd been having 12 to 14 days even on adjacent natural cycles. I got really quite angry/frustrated when AF turned up so soon. But then, I am a control freak ...
But I wouldn't give up yet if I were you. I've never had sore bbs in my life, except when considerably pregnant and breastfeeding, so personally wouldn't set too much store by them.
I'd also be very interested in Create's natural IVF results for older ladies. Breezy, it sounds as if we're in a very similar position ovarian reserve-wise as my FSH is just under ten too, so still misleadingly 'ideal', but just with rubbish AMH results!

brownstag Tue 26-Feb-13 15:07:33

Oh, and yes, Conceive Plus not nearly so good. Definite stickiness created by friction after a while. Not to mention sound effects!

Arianrhod Tue 26-Feb-13 15:36:06

From a fellow control-freak ... ROFL at your sound effects comment! grin

I've always but always had 27-28 day cycles (except for cycles immediately following miscarriages, but I'll forgive my body that), so this shortened cycle is frustrating the life out of me. Although, I haven't actually started yet - 4 days of almost continuous cramps and 2 days of spotting is not funny as a build-up to AF. I do almost always get a day of spotting before AF, but that's about it. As for the sore bbs ... well sometimes I get them before a BFP and sometimes I don't - but I have never had sore bbs that then went before getting a BFP. Only time they ever hurt and then stop is right before AF rears her ugly head.

Just goes to show that cramps around 8dpo (when you usually have a 28-day cycle) doesn't necessarily mean implantation. That's another preconception of mine blown out of the water.

Arianrhod Wed 27-Feb-13 10:29:03

Morning ladies

Well my lovely mother has thrown me a bit of a curveball. I was discussing (over email) that Mr S had told me IVF is my best bet (and that with donor eggs) but that isn't an option due to £££, and she then offered to fund one IVF cycle if we want to give it a go. I don't know what to do now - OH said right at the start of this 'journey' that we would only try 'naturally', no assisted attempts at all. Obviously I want to jump at the chance but I don't know how on earth I would persuade OH to give this a go.

I would probably go for the donor egg option - I've thought about this a lot (in case I ever won the Lottery!) and although obviously I would prefer a genetic match for my DD, you know, I would consider any egg that grows inside of me my own anyway, so I'm not that worried. Not sure OH would agree though. But my reasoning for this is mostly because it's such a huge gamble on my own eggs being any good now, at my age, and IVF being so very expensive - especially if I only have one shot at it - I don't think I can afford the risk of the IVF failing due to my cr@ppy eggs. I don't know. Right now I just need to figure out how on earth to persuade OH to give it a go - think I'd need a miracle though, given (as I've said before) he doesn't seem even vaguely interested in us getting a child naturally!

Why is this never easy?!

Mel3062 Wed 27-Feb-13 10:42:59

Wow ari! Maybe he has changed his way of thinking as time goes on? Maybe he's just said that due to finances but now you have this wonderful opportunity! if it were me I would kick myself for not trying but obviously you need oh on board I think you need to have a good chat t

Mel3062 Wed 27-Feb-13 10:43:38

Tonight maybe cook a nice meal first ;) good luck honey xx

Arianrhod Wed 27-Feb-13 11:01:45

Mmm I doubt it mel (although thank you for the good luck!) - I mean, I hope you're right, but OH has shown pretty much no interest at all in the whole process while we were doing it 'au naturel', he didn't like me doing SO either. And having a chat with OH is rather like banging your head against a brick wall repeatedly .. he just doesn't talk. Oh sure he'll talk about football, the weather, the state of the economy ... but anything personal is an absolute non-starter. I think our longest 'discussion' during the almost three years we've been TTC - including going through 6 miscarriages - has been about 5 minutes. Ok, I'll be generous - 8 minutes. He just won't talk about anything even vaguely personal. Drives me nuts at the best of times.

Now you see why I despair of persuading him to try IVF, even once?

Mel3062 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:11:10

Aw hun what a difficult situation for you I really feel for you, why can't men just communicate and understand sad

Arianrhod Wed 27-Feb-13 11:18:53

'Cos they're MEN! Actually that's very unfair, I know, I don't like gender-specific sweeping generalisations ... but if the cap fits, in this case .. ;)

EducationalAppStore Wed 27-Feb-13 11:24:32

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brownstag Wed 27-Feb-13 13:09:38

It's amazing what similar situations we're in ari. When I told my DH last week about the possibility of free IVF for up to 42-yr-olds on the NHS, he said he wouldn't do it! I'm sure that was because there would then be a real, though small, risk that it might work. I'm sure he's just going along with the au naturel route because he's convinced I'm infertile and it will shut me up.
That is a brilliant opportunity for you though.
Personally, I couldn't go for donor eggs, as now that I've got one child and know how much work they involve, I would only do all of that for my own flesh and blood. Having a child has made me much more selfish in general. But everyone's different and your reasons are very sound ones.
Also, I throughly recommend everyone reading a book I'm working on called 'Understanding Masculine Depression' (when I say working, I mean proofreading, not writing it!). It's brilliant, and despite the title, it's really about all men, about the way they are socialised, about the way they deal with things (by ignoring them, distracting themselves, engaging in dangerous behaviours, etc, anything but feel emotions for what they are), and the way these behaviours are transmitted down the generations. All men ought to read it, all women and anyone with children.
Good luck with it Ari. If your mum's paying, does she have a budget?

Arianrhod Wed 27-Feb-13 15:31:34

Yes brown .. I think initially OH quite wanted a baby (although he never talked about it) but now I suspect he's just happy with the 'au naturel' way because he considers it's never going to happen.

It's only a brilliant opportunity if he agrees to go for it. I'm dreading that conversation - or should I say, I'm dreading trying to start that conversation, as I'm very sure it will go the way of all other baby-related conversations and last only a few minutes, with him saying very little.

Like the sound of the book - although where is the book for men to read, about women and how we work? I don't see guys in their droves rushing out to read such things, do you?

I thought that about donor eggs too - my biggest fear was the lack of genetic link with my DD - but then I read up on epigenetics, and now I'm not so worried. My DD looks absolutely nothing like me at all, if I wasn't there at the birth I'd think she was someone else's! - so as long as I have background medical history of the donor, I've come around to the idea.

However, knowing my OH as I do, I suspect it will remain just a dream.

My mum has said she will pay for one IVF cycle, having done all the research I would/will (shall I allow myself some positivity?) go to Serum so I told her the likely sort of cost and she said she'll pay for one go. But like I say, I suspect it will remain just a very nice offer, rather than a reality.

Spotting again today, that's 5 days in a row of cramps and 3 days spotting. Not amused hmm

brownstag Wed 27-Feb-13 19:47:48

It can't be AF coming after 3 days of spotting, surely. It would have happened by now. I think it sounds promising.
... I've been using 10mg of pred this cycle since 4dpo. All this talk of pred yesterday made me think, what the heck, I'll try it again. This is maybe my last superovulation so why not give it everything? No side effects on 10mg at all. Except for being a bit thick today maybe.
It's such a shame that IVF involves conscious active participation by the man, isn't it? grin

Arianrhod Wed 27-Feb-13 20:48:16

Mmm I contacted someone to ask about maca and apparently it's quite common for women to have several days of spotting for their first cycle or so 'while their hormones are being balanced by the maca'. Well I don't know about that bit, but she advised me to drop my dosage so that's what I'll do.

I did that with the Pred a couple of times too brown, I found it ok on 10mg. Figured some suppression was better than nothing.

Ha! Oh yes, this whole thing would be a lot easier without the bloke having to be involved! I haven't figured out a way to raise it with OH yet, let alone how to persuade him sad

Arianrhod Thu 28-Feb-13 09:42:05

13dpo today, tested this morning (just for peace of mind) and sure enough, a greater lack of a line you couldn't expect to see. It's the maca. Ho hum.

Still not figured how to tackle OH sad

lemonsherbet Thu 28-Feb-13 09:58:58

Ari you are not going to lose anything by approaching him. I suspect it may have been the money worries. I remember you saying something bout redundancies at xmas time. Do you think he would be a bit worried about taking money from your mum? You know lose of male pride or any strings attached. I just know that I would not take money from my in laws from my in laws. We did for our wedding and got the same amount from my parents. They were thanked in the speech to everyone,we thanked them in person, but my in laws are still upset we did not make more of a big deal about their contribution to other people!!!!

If I was you I would try IVF, I think you would regret it if you didn't.

Arianrhod Thu 28-Feb-13 11:01:57

You're right lemon .. but he said right at the start of our trying that he wouldn't do 'assisted conception' and that was almost 3 years ago, long before redundancies loomed. Yes I think he may well balk at accepting money from my mum too - that's on top of his reluctance anyway ... and you're right, I have nothing to lose, it's just if I can figure out how to approach it right he might .. perhaps .. possibly ... agree? I doubt it, but stranger things have been known!

I'd definitely like to give it a shot, if I get the chance.

Hope all is well with your pregnancy?? smile

lemonsherbet Thu 28-Feb-13 17:30:07

We are doing well. Still having lots of antenatal appointments but it is probably better this way.

Do you think it would help to tell him how important it is for you that you try this? Men can be so difficult sometimes.

Pebbles73 Thu 28-Feb-13 17:37:09

Hi all, just been reading about the money offer from your Mum Ari and agree with Lemon that you may regret it if you don't give it a shot. If you explain to your oh just how much it means to you and that he doesn't actually have to do very much himself. I wish you good luck whatever you decide, keep us updated.

Have my appointment with Mr S next week, will send what he has to say and then make an appointment with Create. Currently at home with conjunctivitis and a flu type virus.

Mel have you had your results yet?

Mel3062 Thu 28-Feb-13 18:20:28

Aw pebbles I've got sinititus v painful but a humira side effect I believe sad got results today and levels dropped from 54.0 to 49.6 so in the right direction but unfortunately not back to normal limits apparently, is that 30??
they recommend that we repeat the Humira injections x2 as before. So one injection then two weeks later the second injection. "We normally don't repeat the test as we are unable to give further Humira at this point, it is informative but doesn't change the management and has cost implications" what does this mean??
Been told we can ttc after second injection and that its a safe drug in pregnancy so why can't we ttc before 2nd jab??also as they don't retest I won't know of they are down enough so will it sustain a pregnancy?? I'm so worried and disappointed sad

Pebbles73 Thu 28-Feb-13 18:51:19

Oh Mel I am so sorry to heat that and can imagine how disappointing it is. It seems crazy they don't test again to make sure the second lot has worked! What did Mr S say and did you have to pay again for this blood test or was it included?
Sending a virtual hug your way.x

Mel3062 Fri 01-Mar-13 05:52:02

Thanks hun I've rang Louise and my sister nurse so feel abit better! My my sister said she Thinks that the cost implications idea is that even if your levels haven't dropped to an ideal level, they would still treat as if they had, the idea being that some reduction is better than no reduction. Why bother doing more tests if that is the case, it just costs you money and time and doesn't change how they would treat you.
What you need to bear in mind is that drugs can have a cumulative effect, one dose might reduce levels by 10%, but two doses might reduce it by 30% and 3 doses might reduce it by 75%.
Louise said that to be in mind the humira is being used for conception, I'm having another 2 injections then going on superovulation for a few months then maybe see about ivf. Going to see mr s for ist superovulation round scan. The blood test I paid £265 when I last saw mr s in dec when I first knew I had to take humira so at least it was paid for when I had blood test 2 weeks ago but of course another £700 for humira!! I'm going to request the pen version this time!!
I was in a tizz about if I concieved would it sustain a pregnancy but Louise said to bear in mind I'd still need the nk treatment as well, think I'd just forgot what the humira was for!! She said its safe in pregnancy and though they advise against conceiving until after 2nd injection people do fall pregnant and her concern is that they haven't had steroids from ovulation. So it makes sense again now! She did say some people's levels have gone up so at least mine are reducing abit and it stays on system 9 months! Argh more pain xx

Mel3062 Fri 01-Mar-13 05:52:55

She recommends def to try superovulation again for a couple of cycles before ivf xx

Mel3062 Fri 01-Mar-13 06:21:13

Sorry keep thinking of more! She went through how it effects arthritis in three levels and even if blood results don't change much the symptoms can and so as I'm ill that's good!! I could get blood done today and get a diff result! X

Mel3062 Fri 01-Mar-13 06:35:29

My query now is I'm ovulating now so do I take steroids just in case I'm pregnant or risk not?? X

Arianrhod Fri 01-Mar-13 09:41:56

Crikey this humira business is complicated, isn't it? I do wonder a bit though, if it doesn't really reduce TNFa levels that much (as seems to happen to many ladies from reading around) why do they still prescribe it? Is it because sometimes it does work? Or because they don't know of anything else that can affect TNFa levels? I don't know, sometimes it feels to me like even the 'experts' don't really know what affects what. Just a thought.

mel I feel for you going through all this, what a trooper you are! Best of luck with the superov program, and I hope the humira does the trick. Re the steroids, I'd say if you are DTDing around ovulation time then you might want to take the steroids to make sure, but if you want to avoid pregnancy at this time then don't DTD around your fertile days and you can then not take the steroids. Entirely your choice, I would say!

pebbles Thanks for the advice - you're absolutely right, I'd love to take this chance, but I'm so worried OH will say No and that will be the end of my dream. I've always said he seems a whole lot less bothered about having a baby than I am, so I doubt he'll understand my strength of feeling that we should give this a try - especially with donor eggs. Sigh. Why is this process never easy?

pebbles Best of luck with your appt next week; which clinic(s) did you use before for IVF? Do Create also work with immunes, or will you stay with Mr S for that side of things? And sympathies for your conjunctivitis, my DD had that loads of times and then for the first time ever I caught it off her last year. It's very unpleasant! You using the Optrex drops for it? Thank goodness you can now buy them over the counter!

/waves to everyone

Mel3062 Fri 01-Mar-13 09:51:18

Thank hun I think I prob make it complicated for myself! I think I will take the steroids just in case but then I don't know whether i should whilst still having humira or if it will overload argh I don't know! But then if lucky to fall pregnant ill worry if humira was enough!!

brownstag Sat 02-Mar-13 08:07:19

Ari, what you have to think very carefully about it is whether in the long term you might feel resentment towards your OH if you didn't try this. The amount of time you spend on forums, the number of supplements you take, the research you undertake, etc. all show what an enormous emotional investment you have in this dream to have a baby.
This is the discussion that I had with my husband that led to him, after a few days of processing it, agreeing to superovulation. It wasn't exactly an ultimatum but I did make it very clear that it was very important to me, and this wasn't an issue you could compromise on very easily: he didn't especially want another baby and I did, but you can't have half a baby. As I say, I think he felt he was safe in saying yes, in the end, because he felt sure it would never happen, but I was happy with that.
To be honest, when he wasn't taking on board my feelings it had got to the point where if we didn't already have a son together I would have thought seriously about splitting up. My biological clock was ticking so loudly that I couldn't hear anything else. Although I don't know that that would have helped my plan to have a child as there would have been no way I would ever got over the one relationship, found another and been at the point of trying while I still had any eggs left!
My advice is to have a glass of wine before the conversation: it made me a bit more assertive and more in touch with my own feelings.
Of course, my poor DH couldn't really win, because now I've moved the goal posts and am thinking of IVF!
Mel, good luck and it sounds from what Louise says that you do need the pred too.

brownstag Sat 02-Mar-13 09:06:08

p.s. Ari, it was such a relief to have had this conversation with my DH. It got things out in the open that had been ignored and skirted around for months if not years. Our life had been going through the motions without any kind of communication on the big issues that were important to us, or at least they were brushed aside. I think men will try to ignore things as much as possible, for an easy life, but occasionally a wake-up call does them good! Up until then, whatever my husband said, went: whether we had pets, children, etc.
I'm not saying our life is a bed of roses now by any means, but I'm happy that he knows exactly what my feelings are now.
Of course, the flip side of that is, you might be frightened to push him away and maybe you don't want to rock the boat yourself. It all depends on what you really want and how much you want it.

Mel3062 Sat 02-Mar-13 13:51:08

Thanks brown though Louise doesn't want me to ttc til after second injection and start so again but it may be too late sad ill have to email and ask as worried why they don't like you to try on humira she said shed worry about no steroids from ov but think humira and pred don't mix well :/

Arianrhod Sun 03-Mar-13 08:51:38

Well, I got my answer. Not only does OH not want to do IVF he's decided he doesn't want a baby any more either. He's decided we can't afford to have a baby, and that he's too old. He's precisely 51. Hardly an old man, I would have said.

But he's decided, and that's that. I just have to deal with it now, somehow. sad

Mel3062 Sun 03-Mar-13 09:32:23

Oh ari I'm so sorry to hear this big hugs xxx

Pebbles73 Sun 03-Mar-13 13:02:14

S**t Ari I am sooo sorry and wish I could do something to help. Can't imagine how peed off you must be feeling right now. Will you completely give up now or still try naturally on the quiet? Big hugs.xx

Arianrhod Sun 03-Mar-13 13:46:56

Thank you both. I am peed off, yes, but mostly upset, I keep crying sad Bit difficult with DD but fortunately she's mostly wrapped up with playing. OH had to go to work today which is probably just as well, I pretty much don't want him around me right now. I just keep thinking I've made yet another crappy choice of OH - wouldn't be the first - but my DD adores him. I don't know about trying naturally anymore .. I actually think my eggs are just too old and we won't get anywhere anyway. Don't know really, I'm just a bit too numb to think clearly. Bloody men.

Abney Sun 03-Mar-13 17:28:27

Hi Ari Just caught up with the latest on this thread and I am really sorry to hear about your OH. My DH is similar to yours. Despite how much I wanted another child it was all me, me, me. Me who went to DR S, me who paid for the SO treatment and me who had to virtually pin him down every month. Sometimes I just wanted to run away and not come back but it is very difficult when you already have a DS. The solution was to just keep trying even though I didn't even like him sometimes. What are you supposed to do when you have just paid out for SO drugs and scan and then you have a row. £400 down the swanny and another wasted month. I struck lucky as you know but this was down to sheer perseverence. Today I have been crying for other reasons but the issue is still the same i.e. he doesn't listen to me at all because I feel he is basically not interested. The only plus was that he never said no to more children just no to treatment iVF, SO, etc. Your OH is probably thinking about it at work. My feelings are that if you want something badly and they don't help you then they are not worthy of your love. I am not saying that this is right but it is always what I have felt. Like someone else has said have a huge glass of wine and wait a few days before you tackle it again. Cross fingers that your OH has a heart in there somewhere.

Arianrhod Mon 04-Mar-13 10:27:49

Well OH has not said anymore about it, I'm completely withdrawn and he doesn't seem in the slightest bit bothered. To make things that little bit worse, I had emailed Serum asking some questions last week and the lovely Penny has suggested a phone consultation this Friday evening. Obviously this is pointless now, but I don't know how I could change his mind. His reasoning sounds just crazy to me; we could afford a baby (ok so we wouldn't be having 2 - 3 holidays a year anymore, but apparently that's very important to OH!) and for goodness' sake he's only just 51, many men have children older than that! It feels to me like he's just making excuses, but I honestly don't know how to deal with it. I know being withdrawn from him isn't going to make things better, but it seems I'm just not very good at coping with this - I was better at dealing with endless miscarriages.

Sorry to be a bit me me me, I don't really have anyone else who would understand. I have other friends with single children and they're all happy about it, I think they think I should be too. Aaarrggghhhh.

brownstag Mon 04-Mar-13 16:00:52

Ari, I really feel for you. It must feel as if you're trapped in an impossible situation. Your OH sounds so much like my DH. I know whatever reason my DH comes up with for not having another baby, if it were solved, he would find another. First it was because of my breakdown after DS's birth; then it was because of finances. Then when I suggest free IVF, he admits he simply doesn't really want another baby. Golf and holidays are more important to him.
I also have thought to myself, there must be other men out there who would have been happy to have a baby with me, to support me emotionally and financially. Surely my own husband should want to make babies with me? But I had to choose one who doesn't. The irony is he's really family oriented. But he doesn't seem to see that if no one has any children, there won't be much of his family left eventually, especially as he's an only child himself.
I really don't know what to suggest Ari. I wonder if your OH is just going to try to brush this under the carpet forever and act as if nothing has happened. I think I would have had a major meltdown at this point.
This morning I had a faint line on a test, 10dpo ... But I know it's a fluke of the test, as usual.

Mel3062 Tue 05-Mar-13 02:52:57

Ari I hope you find a way through this I know my oh will draw the line somewhere and he said he def won't want one at 50 as he thinks that's too old as he wants some life just me and him :/ ?!
Pebbles hope you're ok
Brown really hope this is it for you
Louise said I can't take pred as well as it will suppress too much so just need to test early then take if need be.
Why is it all so complicated?!

lemonsherbet Tue 05-Mar-13 06:47:34

ari not sure what to say. Hope things improve for you and that the pair of you can find a way forward. He may just need a bit more time to come round to the idea.

brown very sneaky way to annouce BFP. hope this one works out for you

brownstag Tue 05-Mar-13 08:05:13

Mel, that really is complicated!
Really hope you're okay, ari. I feel bad announcing my news when you're so low.
I can't believe this but this is the first unequivocal BFP in over 4 years. And I'm off to Poland tomorrow for DH's birthday! I haven't even told him yet.
This is the first time I've taken pred since last year, I think, so maybe I'm beginning to believe in it again.
Have just emailed Louise to ask for more pred and Cyclogest. My pred ran out last year, having been prescribed in 2008!

Arianrhod Tue 05-Mar-13 10:18:59

Ooh brown no, don't feel bad, I'm really pleased for you!! Fingers crossed it's a good strong line, and hope to goodness that it carries on well! You took 10mg pred from ovulation this time, is that right?

mel I have read oversuppression is a bad thing, you need some inflammation for an implantation. So presumably the humira would be enough of an immunosuppressant for a pregnancy to establish itself, and then you can take the pred once you get a BFP. Sounds positive to me smile Remember there are ladies on the pred thread with v high NKcells who only took pred from BFP anyway, and they were successful.

brown I think you are actually right, I think he is going to try to just pretend nothing ever happened. I'm damned if I'm going to let that happen this time. Problem is, while I'm p*d off enough that I'd be prepared to actually end the relationship - he clearly doesn't care that much for me! - there's my DD to think of, she adores him and it would be horrendous for her if we split. He's been there for her for as long as she can remember, and she really loves him. I do love him too, honestly, but this has been a big slap in the face for me; he thinks more of money and his precious time than he does of me, obviously. I'm still really unhappy, but getting more angry by the day. Which isn't good, I know. Sorry, rant off!

brown Enjoy your trip to Poland, what a fantastic way to celebrate DH's birthday! Try not to mental too much (yes, I know, easier said than done), and hope you have a great time.

BellyD Tue 05-Mar-13 15:07:30

Hi Ari sorry that I haven't posted sooner. I am so sorry that you are having a difficult time persuading your OH. You so deserve a break and have always been such a support/mine of information to everyone on these threads, I just hope there is a way through this for you.

Whispered congrats Brown, enjoy Poland and I echo what Ari said re the mentalling.

Mel3062 Tue 05-Mar-13 18:04:42

Wow brown about time we had more good news that's great and enjoy Poland wow!!
Hope everyone else is ok esp ari, sending a virtual hug and thanks for the advice yes that's what I'm doing now so fingers crossed xx

brownstag Tue 05-Mar-13 18:18:37

Thanks so much mel, belly and ari. I really hope you can sort things out, ari: I think anger might be more constructive than you think in the long run, if it means talking about your feelings. I echo what Belly says; you've always been there for everyone and certainly picked me up off the floor after my horrendous AMH results. (Two fingers in the face of dire ovarian reserve, btw!)
Best wishes to everyone. Hopefully Poland will be a mental-free zone! xx

Pebbles73 Wed 06-Mar-13 18:40:30

Ari hope you are doing ok, so sooty you have all this crap to do deal with. What you could really do with from your oh is some support, but you know we are here for you do rant away.

Brown was very excited to read your news, lots of luck and kept us updated.

Well I am off to see Mr S tomorrow for the blood test results, feel like from here on will be hemoraging ££££ in treatment!! I need to get myself into gear though with the big 40 looming this year. Once I find out about the humira injections tomorrow I can make an appointment with Create. Not looking forward to telling Mr S that we don't be doing ivf with him....

Have bend looking into these red spots on my face and it seems steroids can give you steriod acne. Going to see if I can get reffered to a dermatologist through my private health care as not much else I can try now.

Waves to anyone who is lurking.

Mel3062 Wed 06-Mar-13 19:02:39

Hey hun good luck for tomorrow let me know xx

Mel3062 Thu 07-Mar-13 05:28:57

Took a erothymcyn last night for hidden infection and it made me feel sick, hot, dizzy and rather funny! Not sure i want to take another! Is this normal? It went away after 15 min but I felt awful x

Arianrhod Thu 07-Mar-13 12:23:29

mel Hmm Erithromycin didn't have that effect on me, but looking at what Agate on Fertility Friends suggests, have you tried this? (bear in mind Penny's advice to avoid dairy for one hour before and after taking it)

<quote>
erithro - take with a substantial breakfast (e.g, big bowl of porridge made with water or 2 thick slices of toast) and evening meal (again, no dairy) plus a big glass of water. take omeprazole 20mg at least 30 mins beforehand.

you can also take a probiotic at lunchtime
</quote>

I didn't need the omeprazole, but I know some people do. Hope this helps!