TTC Super Ovulation part 2

(1000 Posts)
suemays Thu 17-May-12 17:45:12

hey ladies,

There are a few of us who are ttc after mc's, however there will be ladies out there who are also ttc for the first time or second or third without success. If anyone is on, considering or had success on a super ovulation programme then do join us. How long did it take ? Did you try IUI with it.. ? Did you have PCOS?

Kicking this off and hoping some of you will join....

part 1 here:

suemays Thu 17-May-12 17:50:42

I have tried to message you all so sorry if I have missed anyone out. Now lets try and start this with some good news!

Pebbles73 Thu 17-May-12 18:31:55

Hey Sue yep we desperately need some good news on here soon!!

suemays Thu 17-May-12 20:25:00

Not long until you test Pebbles! Are you feeling anything yet? I'm not so expecting AF to turn up over the weekend/early next week.

Abney Thu 17-May-12 20:53:10

Hi all, Just an update from me on the SO thread. A shortened version of what is on the pred thread. I had another SO scan on Monday 2 follies (1 shaded so Dr S says it looks like no egg is inside). No follies on left which is a common theme with me now. I asked about Hydroxy as I said that I could see that quite a lot of people were on it on the 'forum'. Dr S said that Hydroxy was for people who had failed on his pred treatment and I said I have failed 4 times. He then sincerely apologised and wrote me a prescription. Lastly he asked about the timing of my AF's and I said before the last one you could time it to a T (about 27 days) but the last AF was about 21 days. Dr S said that unfortunatley that is what medication does sometimes. Louise also explained that most BFP's happen on SO 4 or 5 which is the same as what everyone else on here has been saying. Good luck to everyone waiting to test.

One more thing if you go to Epsom for the SO scan you can get the SO injection for £20 as they stock it. If you go to Harley St they don't so as Dr S did not give me a prescription the last time I saw him at Epsom he had to write me one at Harley St and the local chemist charged me £55. I asked about the cost of Hydroxy and they said £25 but then I went to Boots and got it for £7 odd. Unfortunately I did not have a chance to shop around for the SO injection.

Pebbles73 Thu 17-May-12 21:01:44

Bugger replied to you Sue but somehow lost the post!! Had some cramping on Sunday but that could be cyclogest as upsets my stomach! Feeling shattered today even though I slept well, unusual for me on pred but probably nothing! God I hate this wait!!!!
Sorry you feel like af ison the way but you never an tell......

Good news about the hydroxy Abney I hope it does the tick for you and good luck this month.

Hope Snoopys other tests this week went ok.

pinkdragon Thu 17-May-12 21:56:12

Interesting Abney. Thanks for the info and good luck this month. I am still wondering and waiting for AF or OV this month. Have taken no Pred, prog or anything as no idea if have ovulated. All my cheapy OPKS are feint. I guess AF will show when she's ready. Did anyone else have a weird cycle first time on Letrozole? I have never experienced anything like this before. Am now day 24

suemays Fri 18-May-12 09:22:13

Got a faint bfp today but am only 10dpo. I wasn't on super ov this month so it's not the hcg shot giving it a false reading. Knowing my luck it will turn into another chemical seeing as I have had two already this year! Just goes to show you that symptom spotting does not work as I didn't feel at all different. Please let this one work!

pink my cycles were all over the place with the steroids so it was hard to tell if it was the letrozole too.

Good luck pebbles I have been feeling really tired too so it's a good sign if you are.

abney don't forget you only need one good egg to fertilise so don't worry too much about the left ovary. At least superov increases your chances.

Buster76 Fri 18-May-12 09:36:29

whispers congratulations sue Third time lucky!! smile

Fingers crossed for pebbles too!
Hope your appointment was fruitful duggs

Are you still seeing Mr S pebbles for your steroid treatment? I know you said Oxford dont know about you taking the steroids. Was Mr S happy for you to have IVF somewhere else?

Hello to everyone else!

Havingkittens Fri 18-May-12 10:11:48

Just popping in to mark my place. Fingers firmly crossed for sue and pebbles (shattered sounds good!)

Not much to report here. I'm on a month off TTC whilst waiting for my hysteroscopy. Also waiting for the results of my blood test. Have emailed Cheryl, but don't know whether she will give me the results or whether I have to wait until I next see Mr S, which won't be for a good month or so yet. I really hope I don't have another 33 day cycle again!

I will be on SO 4 next time. I wonder if the accumulative effect still works if you've had to take a month off?

My friend's dad used some hokum, which I don't believe in (numerology) to deduce that I would become pregnant in June. Be funny if it came true. Although becoming pregnant, as we know, is only half the battle. Or perhaps even a third in my case.

Pebbles73 Fri 18-May-12 13:24:31

Oh wow Sue, whispered congrats and everything crossed it sticks grin. How are you feeling mentally, do you have intralipids?

pink my first cycle of letrezole was also my first on pred and my cycle was a bit weird but not sure which it was down to. Had a short cycle and only lasted a couple if days with lots if spotting. Normally have really bad cramp for two or three days but hardly had any which was nice!

Buster I already had the steroids so didn't go and see Mr S but emailed Louise advising we were going to try ivf again. They were fine and sent me a prescription for the clexane (was £180 for 5 wks worth!!) and gave me instructions. They wanted me to go for an appointment but all the info was on the website so didn't bother.

Wouldn't it be mad if he was right and you did get pregnant in June Kittens wink
I found they are always reluctant to give results on the phone and make you book an appointment so you can top up Mr S holiday fund/new tyres for his Bentley!

pinkdragon Fri 18-May-12 13:52:11

ha ha pebbles, I just got a bill for £10 for a prescription from Mr S for the first time ever. Same as you, I didn't need an appt just the script. I am not paying it. Seriously, are they just out to make as much money as possible from us!? Fingers crossed for you Sue, am hoping it's going to go well x,

suemays Fri 18-May-12 14:20:13

I am booked in for intrallipids on Monday morning but will do another test before I go. I don't want to waste another £350 if this pregnancy is set to fail. I remember the days when I used to be hopeful but not any more! At least I feel quite relaxed about it all as already expecting it not to work!

Can't believe they are charging for prescriptions, I know they do on super ov if you have a scan elsewhere and then mr s looks at your results.

kittens I am proof that the break and hysteroscopy made me more fertile so you could be preg in June. Like you say though, that's almost the easiest bit for some of us, keeping it is even harder.

I am so tired I could fall asleep! Waiting for dd to finish her ballet class.

pebbles when are you testing? I was going to hold off until tomorrow but thought I could attack the killer cells quicker if I got an early bfp. Plus I could get the intrallipids in quick. Still can't believe I did get a bfp so will prob be testing every day now and will drive myself mad! Did I say earlier I felt relaxed?

eurochick Fri 18-May-12 14:35:28

Pink my first superov cycle was usually long. I didn't ov until day 20 when it is usually 14-16 for me. When he upped the dose it brought ov forward to 12/13 so it seemed to be a dosage issue for me.

Buster Mr S had no issue at all working alongside my NHS IVF. He just gave me a copy of the protocol and the prescriptions.

Havingkittens Fri 18-May-12 14:53:14

I'm not paying £150 for a consultation for him to tell me my test results! I've paid £150 for the bloody results so I don't need a total of £300 bill to tell me if my egg supply has dried up. That's just insult to injury! I guess I'll just have to wait until my next Follicle tracking scan next cycle to find out the results. I mean, short of recommending IVF (perhaps with donor eggs if mine are a lost cause?), what else is he going to do in the meantime that will make it necessary to pay to see him before then? I'm going to be on Gonal F and Tamoxifen next cycle anyway. So he's already got the "big guns" out as far as I can tell!

I didn't know he charged £10 for a prescription if you don't go and see him. I've not been charged before for them faxing prescriptions to the pharmacy or Healthcare at Home. I know he charges to analyse and advise on follicle tracking scans done elsewhere which does make me wonder if it's not worth those living far away from him having their SO treatment elsewhere and just continuing the Immune treatment with him. I don't suppose he'd be thrilled with that though.

buzzybee123 Fri 18-May-12 18:40:01

sue whispering congrats

kittens can't you have the blood tests on the NHS, Dr S told which ones he wanted and I asked my GP for the form

duggs1976 Fri 18-May-12 19:05:36

sue you fertile rabbit you! Let's hope this fekkin sticks or else you'd better be off onto you next mission. I sincerely hope it does but if not at least u know your eggs and DH sperm doing to journey.

duggs1976 Fri 18-May-12 19:26:35

Sorry sue last post on train ! At least u r v v fertile and pred doesnt help u! Don't think u even need SO is just dr s holiday fund top up !

suemays Fri 18-May-12 21:08:16

duggs it's not much use being fertile if I can't hold it! I feel like nature is mocking me by taunting me with getting preg fast and then taking it away each time. I could still have bad eggs but a lot of them. Time will tell! Still not at all positive! I only needed SO when the preds messed up my ovulation so I am glad I have snuck a bfp in before the steroids took full effect again. I have decided to double up on vitd3 and the hydroxy seeing as some of the other ladies have been told they can do this. The hydroxy does say on the info take 1or 2 a day but I will check on Monday if/when I go to nlc.

kittens I had a lot of blood tests free on the nhs. I agree you shouldn't have to pay for your test results. Why don't you call Louise and ask her if she can tell you over the phone?

duggs1976 Fri 18-May-12 21:35:19

If you do double hydroxy and vit d will you still take pred from ov? Anyone watch piers Morgan and lulu life stories ? When she talked about her miscarriage?

Arianrhod Sat 19-May-12 09:06:31

Aarrgghh Morning ladies .. 12 dpo and I just got a faint BFP on a FRER. I don't know what to do - I feel like sue, I just think because it's faint it's going to turn out to be another chemical. Second cycle of no Pred. I don't know whether to take te Pred and book intralipids for Mon if poss or just wait a few days and see what happens. sue how are you doing?

Arianrhod Sat 19-May-12 09:08:08

I should just say, the pregnancies that have turned out as 'real' although I then miscarried, I always got a really strong BFP on 12dpo. The ones that turned out to be chemicals I only got a faint at 12dpo. sad

duggs1976 Sat 19-May-12 09:13:51

Are you not on pred ari? I would start to take some now. Fingers crossed and book intrallipids as u have to expect it to work. X

Arianrhod Sat 19-May-12 09:25:10

Nope I stopped taking it 2 cycles ago as I'm certain it was stopping me getting pregnant (and destroying my AFs as well). Spoken with OH an he thinks we should do nothing till 14dpo. If I get a stronger positive then I'll start the Pred (I am on hydroxy and DHEA is a steroid too, although a different type) and book intralipids. I just don't know - the steroids have such a bad effect on me, I don't want to take them unless I have to.

duggs1976 Sat 19-May-12 10:47:03

I think these 2 BFP's Sue and Ari are pretty strong evidence how much PRED can F?**k up our cycles... take another hydroxy x

Arianrhod Sat 19-May-12 10:59:36

Mmm I was thinking the exact same thing. Trouble is I don't think Mr S will believe there's anything in it - I expect him to say it's coincidence. Another hydroxy? Good idea! smile

Pebbles73 Sat 19-May-12 13:14:50

Just a quick one from me, Ari will be keeping fc that the line gets stronger. For you as well Sue. Goes to show u were all right about thd pred stopping you getting a bfp!

I am due to test Wednesday, tempted to test tomorrow but my dh says I should wait and think he is right. I am completely bricking it!!!

buzzybee123 Sat 19-May-12 13:18:16

ari congrats, I an't say all that vit e and l'arginine has made any difference to me, AF is as light as always

Abney Sat 19-May-12 16:22:24

Hi all,

Just pulled over the last list. Obviously needs updating so feel free.

Duggs pred 7 & SO 4
Pebbles pred 1 & SO 1
Snoopy (on hold) pred 7 & SO 2 (not doing SO this month) Testing 2nd/3rd May
euro pred 5 & SO 3, now on IUI
Kittens Pred 10, not ovulating on SO3, waiting for FSH test & changing treatment next cycle (13 months overall on pred, but inc 2 month and 1 month break so far)
Abney SO3 - Last SO scan 14/5. Left ovary no follies. Right 2 (1 20 mm and shaded so Dr S does not consider there to be an egg inside) on Letrozole 7.5. Waiting to test for BFP from 25th May onwards.
Suemays pred - 3 rounds then had a CP, 3 further SO then another CP in March (total of 6 months on preds). On 2 month wait.
Carebear1 SO 1
Arianrhod SO 1 waiting for first scan 5th May

CareBear1 Sat 19-May-12 17:14:53

Ari, Sue and Pebbles best of luck from me.

Regarding the letrozole how did other people find it? I felt a really awful scraping sensation in my bones while i was taking it, so re-read the information sheet and it does say it can cause thinning of the bones. I am slightly worried about taking it month after month. I'd be interested to know if others felt this sensation or not and whether it worried you or not.

Pebbles73 Sun 20-May-12 09:15:10

Well I gave in and tested last night and got a very faint bfp!! Have tested fours days early and wasn't a first response just the standard hospital one and a clear blue. Am half excited as even though faint is only the third time in many years have seen a bfp but obviously very scared as I know it could ammount to nothing and end up being a chemical or mc.
Looks like am in the same boat as you Sue & Ari and will have to wait and see. Will test again on Wednesday which is my official test date. Have either of you tested again this morning?

Care I never had that when I took letrezole, it is probably worth emailing Louise to see what she says?

duggs1976 Sun 20-May-12 11:02:54

Bloody exciting pebbles, sue, ari is a step in right direction. Was so dull us all having BFN's all the time. Now pebbles is it worth you upping your pred dose to 40mg just for a few days what do u reckon?

duggs1976 Sun 20-May-12 11:05:27

BTW I know anything can happen but you ladies are giving me much needed hope. Am thinking of all 3 of you grinxxx

Arianrhod Sun 20-May-12 11:36:03

pebbles fabulous news, so there's 3 of us with the same thing. Although .. the Clearblue tests aren't as sensitive as the First Response are they, so you must have more hCG in your system to get a faint BFP with a Clearblue than I must have to get a faint one on the FRER. Plus what day past egg transfer are you? And how far past that would be your 'official' test date? I am of course concerned that I was 12dpo and only got a faint line - sue you were two days earlier than me and got the same, right? I did however test on 10dpo with a 'first step' test which is supposed to be sensitive to 10miu and got a negative (I did that to check the ovitrelle was out of my system) so I wonder if it's just that I implanted later than usual? I don't know, I had some cramps 8dpo but put that down to the gluten-free diet I've been doing this week!

I haven't tested again today, no, I'll wait till tomorrow as that will be 14dpo and if this is any kind of 'real' pregnancy the line should be stronger. If its not then I presume that it's another chemical. I'll have to take advice from Louise at that point as to whether to throw away another £350 try the intralipids again or not.

Why is nothing ever straightforward?!

Pebbles73 Sun 20-May-12 14:53:38

Thanks DuggsI think will stick with the 25mg pred to be honest seeing as I am only high and not very high. My allergies ie eczema/hayfever\asthma have gone at the mo so am assuming the pred is doing its job. Other than that I hjnave been eating shit loads of seeds/nuts/avocado's/eggs for the omega 3. As I don't eat much fish other than tuna will just have to carry on with plenty of the above!

Thanks Ari, I am 10 days post embryo transfer so still early and official test date is Wednesday. I just did a frer and only marginally darker. Funny as when I had a bfp in October I got a better positive on the clear blue than frer. Will defo not test until Wednesday and hopefully will have got darker. I need to email Louise for another clexane prescription and am going to ask if it's worth me chucking some intralipids at this as well.hmm
You are very good holding off testing again today. grin

suemays Sun 20-May-12 20:22:59

Pebbles brilliant news for you! Lets hope the 3 of us have some luck at last. I am dreading testing tomorrow!

Havingkittens Mon 21-May-12 00:00:50

Ooh pebbles, exciting!

suemays Mon 21-May-12 06:56:02

Did another test today and a lovely dark line appeared. I don't want to read too much into it yet as I know this could still fail but my two cps never had a strong a line as this one. Plus I am still only 13dpo today. Going in for intrallipids as planned so I will prob be on this thread a lot today!

Arianrhod Mon 21-May-12 09:07:22

Well done sue, really rooting for you smile

Posted on the other thread, but basically mine seems to have turned out to be yet another chemical as my FRER this morning has such a very faint line you can barely see it, so my hCG has obviously dropped from Saturday, although no sign yet of AF arriving. Bugger. Back to the drawing board.

Pebbles73 Mon 21-May-12 14:03:30

Fantastic news sue!!! grin i know there are a lot hurdles to get through but at least you know it is going in the right direction. You must have been a bit relieved this morning seeing that?

Ari am so sorry yours didn't get stronger, will you carry on testing just to be sure? Hope you are ok.

I am testing again on wednesday and praying for a stronger line, still feeling really shattered particularly in the morning.

Havingkittens Tue 29-May-12 14:42:13

Quiet round here innit?

Arianrhod Wed 30-May-12 10:14:20

I think everyone's been posting on the pred thread instead smile

Pebbles73 Thu 31-May-12 18:02:49

Hello thought I would join you. How did your hysteroscopy go kittens or have you not had it yet?

Feeling crap today, also since I stopped the steroids got a load of spots/ rash on my face!

How is everyone else doing???

Arianrhod Fri 01-Jun-12 10:17:30

Hey pebbles, isn't it bizarre what the steroids do to us! They always give me spots yet when I stop taking them, my eczema (which I only very rarely get) comes back in full force, like my NK cells have redoubled their attack.

Sorry you're feeling so rubbish, big hugs.

Just found out yesterday that a good friend of mine died from a suspected heart attack the day before, so I'm feeling even more cr@p than I already was. He was my age, and one of the nicest guys I've ever known. What a rubbish time it is for so many of us right now, please let there be some good news really soon?!

CD10 scan today, will be interesting to see if the Letrozole somehow overrides my body's usual time to recover after a chemical since in the normal course of things I wouldn't be naturally ovulating for another couple of weeks yet after a chemical. We'll see.

Pebbles73 Fri 01-Jun-12 10:40:44

Strangely I gave also had a really bad heat rash from the sun that has blistered on my arm. I look like I have leprosy(not sure if that's how you spell it!). I never burn and tan easily so can only think its hormones.

Ari I am sooo sorry, what a terrible thing to happen to somebody so young!! I think you are the one who needs big hugs and yes let's hurry up and get some good news on here!!!

Havingkittens Fri 01-Jun-12 10:59:46

Thanks for asking pebbles, the hysteroscopy results were good. No scarring but lining a bit thin. I wasn't on the progynova this month but that seems to be doing the job of building my lining when I do take it so should be no probs there. my AF is due next weekend so I will be back on the SO mission with my revised treatment. So, just have to wait about 3 weeks to see if there's any egg action and what Mr S makes of my blood tests.

ari I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. It's so jarring to loose a good friend, especially when they are your age. It just doesn't seem right. Big hug to you. x

Arianrhod Fri 01-Jun-12 15:16:07

Great news on the hysteroscopy kittens, although not so good that it hurt sad I wonder what it is about the hysteroscopy that promotes fertility afterwards? Fingers crossed that it does the trick for you!

Thanks both, it was a shock, and such a nice guy too. The world isn't a fair place, we know that, but still.

Well, I had my scan, and surprisingly it was just fine, despite the chemical pregnancy. I had two follies both at 15mm which considering this is only day 10 and I usually ov at day 14 Mr S said was exactly right, and my lining was 9mm. So that's either the l-arginine/vit E combination doing it's stuff or the fact that I haven't taken steroids for 2.5 cycles now. My S pronounced himself very pleased with both follies and lining. Glad my body's doing something right, even if it can't get and stay pregnant for longer than a couple of days!

Ho hum, on with the next bit ...

Hope everyone's planning to kick back and enjoy the long holiday, crossing fingers the weather decides to cooperate and stay fine!

suemays Fri 01-Jun-12 21:54:43

kittens so glad the hysteroscopy went well. It's a relief to see a nice clean womb isn't it!? I had a lot of bloating after mine too but I think it's all the water they pump into you. I had period pains for a few days later too. Louise at nlc said they often see a bfp straight after the procedure it's as if it clears the way for the embryo. My lining was a bit thin on my first SO cycle so I started taking selenium. I don't know if it helped but my lining was fine on the 2nd go.

ari sorry to hear about your friend passing away. Nothing prepares you for a close death and on top of everything else you are having thrown at
you recently. It's great you have two good size follies lets hope this month will be the one for you.

pebbles I also got greasy skin on the meds but not sure which one it was!

pinkdragon Mon 04-Jun-12 22:24:53

Sorry have been away ages so just been catching up on all the posts. Thanks to whoever commented about Letrozole and long cycle......I was on my first month last month and didn't OV til about CD30. Now af has arrived 10dpo. So am gutted. Practically a double length cycle for nothing.

Hope everyone is doing ok

pinkdragon Mon 04-Jun-12 22:27:58

oh it was Eurochick....thanks for your comment. What did Mr S up your Letrozole to after your first cycle?

Havingkittens Mon 04-Jun-12 23:22:36

I mentioned it too. I was on 5mg Letrozole the first cycle and then upped to 7.5mg from the second cycle because there was only one follicle in the first cycle. Last cycle on Letrozole I OV'd o CD24 and AF came on CD33 I think. I so hope my cycles return back to normal! I can't afford a 33 day cycle at a time! Mind you, I think I OV'd around CD13 this cycle but i wasn't TTC as I had a hysteroscopy. Different drugs next time.

Havingkittens Fri 08-Jun-12 09:23:00

Not sure if anyone is checking this thread at the moment but just wanted ask anyone taking gonal f (*ari*?) Which CDs you take it? AF just showed up yesterday and it's so long since I filled the prescription that I can no longer remember! Tried texting Louise yesterday, but no reply. Is she away?

Arianrhod Fri 08-Jun-12 10:15:24

I'm checking kittens smile Sorry I don't take gonal-f but isn't the superov plan on Mr S's website? (pause while I go check) Yep, it is - it comes under the "Superovulation (FSH stimulation) programme" and says

Start the FSH injections (such as Gonal-F ) in the morning of day 3 of your period. Then alternate days on day 3, 7, 9.
A further scan is arranged with Mr Shehata between day 11 and 13 to check ovulation response. Further injections or scans may sometimes be required.

Hope that helps! Don't know if Louise is away I'm afraid, but I think from what one of the girls (bellyd?) said on the other thread that Mr S is away, so perhaps Louise is too?

eurochick Fri 08-Jun-12 10:58:07

Pinkdragon I think the first cycle I was on 2.5 and went to 5 after that and oved around day 13, but only with one egg. So he was considering upping it to 7.5 but I decided to stop.

kittens my cycles returned to normal as soon as I stopped the Letrozole.

Havingkittens Fri 08-Jun-12 12:02:08

Thanks ari can you pm me the password? Forgotten that too. Boy, am I scatty?

euro, I didn't take anything this cycle because of the hysteroscopy and my cycle was 24 days. Quite pleased as it means I can crack on with the gonal f now.

Arianrhod Fri 08-Jun-12 12:05:39

I can't claim I remembered it kittens, but I do have the original Miscarriage Centre leaflet in my bag still that Louise wrote the password on when we first saw Mr S last Sept ... what does that say about me?! grin I've PMd it to you.

cubhouse Sun 10-Jun-12 23:07:42

Hello everyone. I'm trying to find a clinic in London that will prescribe letrozole for me, I've tried clomid for 6 months with no success and went through an abandoned ivf cycle. My doctor at the private clinic told me letrozole isn't legal for fertility purposes in the UK, but I see on this thread many of you have used it! To those of you who have used it, would you be able to tell me name of the clinic you used or even better, an NHS hospital in London? I'm desperate to avoid ivf, sorry to hijack this thread

Arianrhod Mon 11-Jun-12 09:38:56

Hi cubhouse and welcome. I think we on here all see Mr Shehata, either out of the New Life Clinic in Epsom, or Harley Street (he works at both places). We have Letrozole as part of his superovulation programme. Not sure if this helps you, as I doubt he would just prescribe it without you actually being his patient?

buzzybee123 Mon 11-Jun-12 17:22:01

kittens how are you finding the Gonal F, i'm starting it this coming cycle

ari sorry to hear about your chem

cubhouse welcome

CareBear1 Mon 11-Jun-12 18:41:51

Hi all, how are you all getting on this month? I think some of you were about the same day as me? I'm day 20 today, 3 more days of pred and have to test on friday. Doing the usual driving myself mad trying not to symptom spot. Keep feeling odd twinges and sensations and then nothing. Always the same. Let me know how you're getting on.

Arianrhod Tue 12-Jun-12 10:05:06

Hi care, I'm almost up with you, due to test CD12 on Sunday. Although with absolutely no twinges, aches, pains or - well, anything! - I'm not expecting anything other than a big fat raspberry!

Havingkittens Tue 12-Jun-12 10:31:32

Ahh, I was beginning to wonder whether anyone was doing SO anymore. This thread has been so quiet!

cubhouse, ari beat me to giving you the same answer that I was going to give. Mr Shehata does prescribe Letrozole, and also Tamoxifen, but primarily he runs a miscarriage clinic so I'm not sure he just does SO treatment without being on his miscarriage plan. We may be wrong, of course, so worth checking. You can find him by Googling "The Miscarriage Clinic".

Hi Buzzybee, it's hard to know how I'm getting on with the Gonal-F. I've been feeling pretty down but I think that's just grief. I don't know whether the Gonal- F has exacerbated this or not. I felt the threat of insomnia last night but it didn't last too long. Just trouble getting to sleep and feeling a bit wired. I think that may be the Tamoxifen though as I took it last thing. I know it says on the website to take the Gonal-F in the morning but Louise said it didn't matter what time I took it as long as it was at the same time each day so I've decided to take it at 7pm as my routine is so variable. At least that way I'm pretty certain to be home. I can be up for work any time between 5.30 and 8.00am, depending on the job and often can get home late too. Fingers crossed that should be ok! Got my scan on Monday - CD12. Will probably use OPK sticks over the weekend just to keep an eye on things. I'm going to try and be like digi on this cycle and make a concerted effort on the SWI front as it's my most expensive cycle so far!

Good luck carebear. I get all sorts of twinges throughout my cycle so I've given up on trying to symptom spot! Fingers crossed yours are more meaningful than mine.

suemays Tue 12-Jun-12 10:34:40

Ladies, I didnt get any symptoms with this pregnancy so don't read too much into it if you are not feeling anything. I was that convinced I wasnt pregnant that I went out and got really drunk on a birthday night out around a week after ovulation! I seemed to get more symptoms on the chemical pregnancies.

Welcome cubhouse I am with Dr S too. I am sure he wont prescribe letrozole without seeing you as you have to have follicle scans to check that there are not too many ripe ones when using the letrozole.

Havingkittens Tue 12-Jun-12 10:43:38

cubhouse, why don't you have a look on the Fertility Friends website? I don't think it's uncommon to be given Letrozole. I'm sure there are other clinics which offer it without the immune therapy treatment for miscarriages that we are on.

Arianrhod Tue 12-Jun-12 12:22:57

You didn't get implantation pains sue? I thought that was something of a necessity, would be (very!) nice to be wrong! Problem for me is my only successful pregnancy was with DD 6 years ago now, and as I wasn't trying to get pregnant at the time even if I had implantation pains then I wouldn't have known what it was, would just have suspected a dodgy tummy!! I have had what I assumed were implantation pains for every one of the 5 pregnancies I've had in the past 18 months though, all of which of course failed.

I confess though, I wouldn't be at all surprised if I wasn't pg this cycle, for not enough SWIing. I just really didn't feel like it this time, and to be honest my whole libido has taken something of a nosedive in the past few months (poor OH). We did SWI the day following the trigger shot and the next day (which was when Mr S said to DTD), but that's it. I just really didn't want to. Rubbish of me, I know, but I'm really very fed up with this whole process - as I have no doubt everyone is! kittens Really feeling for you with dealing with grief too, as well as this TTC lark. Hoping the counsellor is helping you deal with some of it at least.

sue crossing fingers for your scan on Thursday. Come on that beanie! smile

buzzybee123 Tue 12-Jun-12 13:34:56

kittens thank you, i've pm'd you. I'm postponing my cycle this month as DH is having a little op on Monday so I need to give him a bit of time to recover so I've upped my cyclogest although I've had a bit of spotting. I start on the Gonal f early next week. Can I ask why you are on the Tamoxifen too??? I've been away for 2 weeks so unsure of what has been happening but I have found counselling a great help, big hugs

sue fingers crossed for your scan

Havingkittens Tue 12-Jun-12 13:44:03

Ah, tamoxifen too, I guess because I didn't have any ripe follies last time so they're taking extreme action! Not very good blood test (FSH & LH) recently either so I probably need all the help I can get.

buzzybee123 Tue 12-Jun-12 14:14:57

kittens were you on the gonal f last time?? I was just on 80mgs on Tamoxifen and it didn't do anything for me. I think i'm on .75mgs of gonal f ??

Havingkittens Tue 12-Jun-12 14:59:43

No, I was on 7.5mg Letrozole. Now I'm on 80mg Tamoxifen and the same dose as you of Gonal F.

buzzybee123 Tue 12-Jun-12 15:50:19

ah I see, I suppose i'll have to wait and see what happens with the Gonal F, I'm hoping it works, good luck with your scan next week, let us know how it goes

suemays Tue 12-Jun-12 21:06:50

ari I had no implantation pains or any other symptoms at all so I was shocked when I got a bfp! My first pregnancy 5 years ago with DD I had no symptoms either and didn't realise I was pregnant until around 8 weeks. I had implantation bleeding at 4 weeks and thought I had a light period after stopping the pill a few weeks before.
Thanks for the wishes of good luck for the scan on thurs. I have been frantically knicker checking over the last two days.

Good luck with all the folly scans etc. Its so draining with all the TTC etc.

CareBear1 Wed 13-Jun-12 09:46:39

Ari, not long till sunday. I was interested in reading what you're doing regarding alternative methods. I spent 8 months last year following a whole chinese medicine philosophy approach. Have you read 'The Infertility Cure' by Randine Lewis? It gives the chinese explanation alongside the western explanation for all things fertility, e.g. there is a chapter on immune system and what the chinese medicine explanations are for problems in this area. Very interesting. I did weekly acupuncture, diet changes, tablet herbs, meditation etc and I did notice lots of improvements to my cycles. Ultimately I got a bit frustrated it hadn't worked and have resorted back to some good ol hard drugs, but I still have a box of herbs next door I haven't used yet. I may well go back to it if this SO business doesn't work.

Kittens, I am interested in the numerology prediction too, I can't help thinking there is something in things like that. I love horoscopes and all that, with a pinch of salt. After all, if the moon can control the tides! So June it is, fingers crossed for your scan next week.

As for symptom spotting, my usual day 4-6 dpo sensations of tugging etc have stopped and I think I now feel a mixture of progesterone and prednisolone! Such a shame we can't have a mini webcam to have a look at what's going on. I really should be used to this by now but still manage every month to get caught up in the am I / aren't I. Failure sure that I'm not.

Buzzy are you taking gonal F in preparation for the following month then?

Suemays good luck for the scan tomorrow.

Cubhouse I'm on Mr S's SO plan and I haven't had MC's, but did have suspected implantation failure, so he tested me for NKC cells and put me on the SO plan which is letrozole (for me) plus monthly scan etc. His main interest seems to be the immunology and NKC cells, though they didn't do any screening of why I wanted to see him when I made the appointment and I bet he wouldn't turn patients away!

buzzybee123 Wed 13-Jun-12 10:18:14

carebear i'm having to postpone AF this month as Mr B is having a minor op on Monday and since SO I now ovulate early, so I've doubled the progesterone, hopefully next week(if I can hold off the ERTD)I'll start on the Gonal F for the first time, I have to say the progesterone is making me feel crap. I'm also having acupuncture and taking herbs, it hasn't made any difference to my cycles but has really helped with my migraines

Havingkittens Sat 16-Jun-12 20:26:55

buzzy, just to warn you, I've found the biggest side effect of the Gonal F is extreme fatique. I'm getting ridiculously tired this week. The penny has only just dropped that that's what was causing it. Very much like pregnancy tiredness, where is it suddenly really quite overwhelming and all I can think of is how soon I can lie down or go to bed. Have also been very thirsty and weeing an awful lot. So all in all, not dissimilar to pregnancy!

buzzybee123 Sat 16-Jun-12 20:36:39

kittens thanks to be honest that is how I feel on the double progesterone right now, It really takes it out of me. Have you had your scan yet??

Havingkittens Sat 16-Jun-12 21:50:52

No not yet. I'm having it on Monday (CD12). Let's hope I can stay awake long enough to SWI!

buzzybee123 Sat 16-Jun-12 21:56:41

good luck for Monday, just lay back and think of England wink

brownstag Sun 17-Jun-12 10:49:31

Hallo everyone again; I've been off the treatment for a bit but have just restarted.
Mr S has got me on hydroxychloroquine but taken me off the steroids (horrendous insomnia); he doesn't know how this will work out on its own however. I took letrozole this cycle and was pleased with the lining (7mm) and improved cervical mucous. However, I still only produced one follicle, 15.5mm at day 10, so will increase to 7.5 next month, assuming I'm not pregnant. A friend of mine has just conceived on the same treatment with Mr S, her first superovulation cycle, so I'm feeling hopeful. She has very high natural killer cell levels, so is on the the whole shebang of immunosuppressive treatment.
Also, for anyone with luteal phase length problems, I have been taking coenzyme q10 recently, and since then my luteal phase has been 14 days instead of 11. I read it's meant to help delay the menopause as well as improve fertility in men. Also, I seem to remember above someone mentioning DHEA. I also wanted to use that but Mr S said no, it can cause bladder cancer.

CareBear1 Sun 17-Jun-12 15:48:08

Hi all, how are you all getting on? Ari how was the test?

Mine was BFN again on friday. I have to admit I feel like rubbish from the steroids, and my gut instinct is this isn't going to work for us, and that I should stop and go and get the full testing like Duggs did at Mr Gorgy. DH thinks I'm giving up a bit quickly, as its only been 2 cycles.

Do you think the SO and pred is a 'if its going to work it will quite quickly' kind of thing, or is there really any benefit to keeping going? I know Mr S says to give it 6 months, but i suppose i thought that if it was going to 'fix' whatever is wrong then it would have just done that. I've had lots of confirmations that I ovulate fine, we know we can make great embryo's in the lab. I can't help thinking there must be something we don't know about yet. Does taking pred over several months have any kind of cumulative effect on NK cells does anyone know?

How do you all find the effects of the steroids?

brownstag Sun 17-Jun-12 16:47:19

Carebear, when I took the steroids 3 years ago while pregnant with my son, I had mainly awful indigestion and black facial hair as my side effects (plucking every morning!). But I only took them from a positive test. When I started them this time round, while TTC, I had bad insomnia and stopped them after one cycle. I'm now on the hydroxychloroquine instead. There's no way I could have taken the steroids month after month.
A friend of mine has just got pregnant on the steroids under Mr S. She's been on them for several months (including one miscarriage on them a few months ago) but this was the first cycle on superovulation. I'm really hopeful it's going to work out for her this time.

Arianrhod Mon 18-Jun-12 10:22:50

Hi all -

kittens That's rubbish to hear that gonal-f is wiping you out. I didn't know it had that kind of effect, let's hope it wears off quickly. Good luck for your scan today!

care Well mine was a firm BFN at 12 dpo yesterday, followed immediately by spotting and full AF this morning. That makes me a day early for my usual cycle but I understand Letrozole can make your cycle a little shorter sometimes, so I'm not worried, and at least I seem to have returned to my pre-steroid proper AFs, so I'm happy about that. And it means I can get tested for hidden-C and the other infections, so I've posted off my sample today and will wait to see what that comes back with.

I'm am happier not taking steroids and my body feels better. I'm putting my faith in Dr Wing's chinese mushroom/herb approach to controlling NKCs as I've read several good testiments to their efficacy, although should I get a good BFP I'll be taking the 40mg steroids then.

I've read in quite a few places that Superov does typically take 4 to 6 cycles to work, if it's going to, so I'll stick with it for the 6 cycles (that was my second).

brownstag Welcome back smile I'm really surprised to hear that Mr S thinks DHEA causes bladder cancer, as everything I've read (I'm on DHEA) says the complete opposite! There are several medical articles around t'internet, but one for example says this:


Epidemiologic studies indicate that the risk of developing a wide variety of cancers is directly related to serum levels of DHEA. In laboratory animal studies, DHEA has prevented the occurrence of many types of chemically-induced tumors including colon cancer (Schulz 1992), lung cancer (Pashko 1984), skin cancer (Pashko 1985), and breast cancer (Schwartz 1981). In addition, many cancers are associated with low blood levels of DHEA. Examples include gastric cancer (Gordon 1993), prostate cancer (Stahl 1992), bladder cancer (Gordon 1992), and breast cancer (Bulbrook 1971).

In one such study of 5,000 women, it was found that those who developed breast cancer had subnormal secretion of DHEA metabolites as long as nine years prior to development of the cancer. This meant they had low blood DHEA levels.
The link to this particular full article is at if anyone is interested.

A lot of IVF consultants are prescribing DHEA, especially for older women, increasingly in the UK as well as in the US. My acupuncturist told me when I saw her 2 weeks ago that most of the IVF ladies she treats have now been put on DHEA by their various clinics, so although I know there are still some medical uncertainties around DHEA it does seem that there isn't the concern that Mr S has. But also remember this isn't his area of expertise also, so maybe he's not as knowledgable about this particular treatment as some other consultants may be? I wouldn't say it's definitely safe to be on long-term - I'm not planning to take it longer than 6 months myself - but I know women who have taken it for up to a year with no ill effects.

Anyway, I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't take it - merely that I'm surprised by Mr S's take on it. shrug

/waves to everyone, hope you're all doing ok!

Havingkittens Mon 18-Jun-12 12:41:06

I'm pleased to report that the Gonal F seems to only have the effect within the first 24 hrs of taking it. So, I've been on it every other day - hence, completely knackered all week. Last dose was on Friday and was worried that I would be completely flagging at Lovebox yesterday but was absolutely fine, luckily.

I'm a bit worried about my scan today as I'd been advised in the past SO Cycle to go, I think between CD13-15 and today is CD12. I'd booked it in for today as I was supposed to be working the next 3 days but I've had to cancel work for the next 2 days due to it being 10-12 hour days on a cross channel ferry and I am very susceptible to seasickness! So now I'm worried that today will be inconclusive and I'll have to pay for a later scan, or that I will just take the trigger shot at an estimated ovulation day and not know whether the eggs are going to mature or not. Last time I had a scan too early the follicles were 12mm and Mr S said that at that size they could go either way. It's only when they get past 12mm that he can tell if they will actually mature rather than disintegrate. I did an OPK just now and there was no line. Scan is meant to be at 5pm. Hmmmm.

There are so many things that surprise me with Mr S! I am always surprised on the SO programme that he only recommends SWI on the actual day of ovulation and places no importance on doing so in the "run up". Whereas with normal TTC it's recommended to start about 5 days before OV. Also, he shows no concern whatsoever, even after my repeated questioning, about a 10 day luteal phase and the TTC threads are all jammed with people trying to lengthen theirs to over 11 days as anything under is apparently a concern.

It's all pretty baffling to be honest!

ari, are you still seeing Mr S too? What does he think about you taking the chinese herbs? Have you told him about having the other tests?

brownstag, like you, I'm concerned about being on steroids month after month. I've been taking them, albeit with the odd month or two break here and there, since last April. I feel like that's a really long time to be speculatively taking something that's really not that good for you in the long term!

carebear it seems the general consensus that SO works between cycle 4-6 and then if it's not worked after 6 it's unlikely to.

I'm quite nervous this time as they will also be discussing my test results with me (which don't look great to me).

Sorry for the BFNs. This just feels like such an up hill struggle doesn't it? Quite a slippery hill, at that!

Arianrhod Mon 18-Jun-12 13:21:49

kittens Well thank goodness for the short-lived side effects! I would just say on the follie scan, I'm suppoesd to go between CD11 and 13 but because of the bank holiday I had to go CD10 this last time and it was fine. Hopefully yours will be too, with the super-extra power of gonal-f! Interesting your comment on when Mr S recommends SWI - to me, he told me sex the day before ovulation was due and the day of ov itself. eg. trigger shot Sunday night, SWI Monday and Tuesday as he says it the Ovitrelle causes ovulation 36 hours after the shot. I was quite surprised at his exactness with the 36 hours but as it turns out it was almost spot on for me - a little over 36 hours the first cycle and I think 38 hours this time.

I haven't told Mr S about Dr Wing's NKC protocol any more than I've told him I'm on DHEA, as I know he will pooh-pooh it. I'm definitely still seeing Mr S, I do think he's excellent but I just feel he doesn't necessarily cover all angles. I haven't told him I'm being tested for hidden-C etc but I will tell him once the results come through if they find anything.

Good luck kittens not only for the scan but your results discussion. Please don't be put off with the results - remember sue's FSH dropped dramatically after being off the steroids and I am myself about to get my FSH retested now I've been off the steroids 3 cycles (you can do this from home).

Havingkittens Mon 18-Jun-12 13:30:17

Yes, very thankful that the side effects were fairly short lived. This regime is really not helping my career, amongst other things! Being self employed and relying on the fact that I have to "hustle" for my work, spending a week feeling like I'm going to fall asleep, followed by the pred side effects which include complete inability to think straight, string a sentence together or concentrate, feeling dizzy and spaced out etc are not in the least bit conducive to making new contacts confused. The few days that I'm not taking drugs that compromise my day to day performance I am having withdrawal symptoms from the steroids. So fed up with it all!

buzzybee123 Mon 18-Jun-12 17:58:37

kittens did you say you took the Gonal F every other day, Is that because of the Tamoxifen, It says on my pack days 2-7 ?? hope the scan went well

Havingkittens Mon 18-Jun-12 20:03:02

Yes, every other day. But you're right, it was because of the Tamoxifen. Mr S was going to put me on daily Gonal F and no Tamoxifen next cycle based on my blood test results but was pleasantly surprised when he did my scan and saw two good follicles so we're good to go this month. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

brownstag Mon 18-Jun-12 20:22:10

Ari, I completely agree about the DHEA. I had researched it pretty thoroughly before I asked Mr S, and everything seemed to suggest it was safe and effective. Plus recommended to be taken alongside other fertility treatment. I did wonder (cynically) whether it was because it was freely available over the internet and he couldn't make money out of it. Though he did say he had actually prescribed it 4 or 5 times and not had any results. Do you have any side effects with it? I'm generally on the greasy/spotty side so worried about that.

What are the extra tests people are talking about done by Dr Gorgy? Where is he/she? Before I had my son I had 5 miscarriages, but it's been a year and a half now without conceiving at all (or at least just one possible chemical). I feel sure something else is going on that's not just my age (and the endometriosis, NK cells, one ovary working, etc!).

Also, re. luteal phases; I was given Clomid on the NHS - dreadful stuff in the short term - but I did subsequently have two cycles with 14-day luteal phases. Still didn't conceive though.

Read some research the other day about eggs being created from stem cells; anything that buys some time has got to be good!

buzzybee123 Mon 18-Jun-12 20:42:21

kittens good news and fingers crossed

Arianrhod Tue 19-Jun-12 10:32:36

Excellent news kittens, firmly crossing everything available to be crossed for you! Did Mr S say to SWI the day before ov was due this time??

brown The only side effects I have had is yes an increase in skin oil, extra sweating (not pleasant since I don't tend to sweat much at all usually) and a little extra hair coming out when I brush my hair. But I just changed my face wash and moisturiser to one for oily skin and tbh it mostly settled down after the first month of taking it. Seems to increase in the second half of my cycle, after ov, but I presume that's because progesterone naturally rises then, so I guess the combination of the two cause extra oiliness. I would say after it settled down it's not a big deal. As for the extra sweating, I just changed to a stronger deodorant, and that sorted that out. Hair loss is minimal, just fractionally more than I usually have anyway, and not in any way noticeable. So for me, I'd say it's been ok. Can't say if it's done anything follie-wise as I'm only in my third month of taking it, and received wisdom says it takes 4 months before it has any noticeable effect on your follies (which makes sense, if you think of the lifecycle of follicles).

That stem cell research looks fantastic, what a shame it's too early along to be any help to us ladies here. But what a great possibility for ladies in the future!

Havingkittens Tue 19-Jun-12 14:04:23

ari, he recommended the day before and the day of. I asked Louise why they only recommended those days and not "getting a run up" and she said it was just to put less pressure on couples to SWI every day but she recommended to try today as well if we wanted as sperm can live for 3 days (I'd always thought up to 5, but there you go).

He also agreed to start me on Hydroxy next cycle. He was concerned that with Hydroxy you weren't supposed to try for 6 weeks so we'll see what he says about that next month. Unless I end up staying on the pred until the hydroxy kicks in?

CareBear1 Tue 19-Jun-12 14:10:36

Ari I have decided to also do the Athens tests this month, thanks so much for the info on this. I've got my sample pot at the ready. How much are you sending?! Just in a jiffy bag?!

Think I will also continue with SO. These drugs are turning me into a crazy person, I keep changing my mind. Poor DH!

Arianrhod Tue 19-Jun-12 15:42:47

kittens well remember that free was only on the hydroxy for 2 weeks before getting her BFP and she's been fine, so perhaps it's not an issue?

care Yes I just used a small jiffy bag, wrapped the vial in bubble wrap and a bit more bubble wrap just either side in the bag. Cost me just under £8 to send International Recorded from the post office, and they don't ask you to state what's in the packet which is just as well! I just followed what others have said and sent I think just about a teaspoon, maybe less, and about 10ml saline (I bought a little bottle of the drops you use for children's noses!!, checked ingredients first). Not a pleasant thing to do, but easy enough.

Poor DHs, but remember it's you that have to go through all the tests/medication etc, so poor you too - and understandable if you change your mind, these things are a pain to have to deal with!

kittens What did Mr S say about your test results, not too bad then? You didn't get the "I recommend IVF with donor eggs" speech then ... ?

Havingkittens Tue 19-Jun-12 16:10:13

Well, he went through my results before I got scanned. He said that IVF clinics will reject most people with an FSH of 16+ and that a lot of clinics will reject those with 12+ (I'm 12.3). He said that there was as much/little chance of success with SO as with IVF at that level so we decided to continue with the SO until the standard 6 cycles. He did say that my oestrogen levels were fine so that brought the odds up a reasonable amount. I don't think he was expecting much response to the treatment I'd been on, based on those results. He seemed very pleasantly surprised by my 2 ripe follies! So, he didn't mention donor eggs just yet. Maybe he's waiting to see if I get lucky on the SO still, on a cross one bridge at a time basis.

brownstag Tue 19-Jun-12 21:20:22

What is the Athens test??

Having kittens, 2 follicles is great! I only had one with FSH of 7.4, and I was very disappointed that I'd spent all that money and took those drugs to achieve what my body could usually do by itself. So perhaps sometimes these figures are academic.

I didn't realise the hydroxy takes so long to kick in. Looks like I shouldn't get too hopeful this cycle after taking it for 6 days! But I'm finding no side effects at all, which is a lot better than the steroids. Has anyone else had side effects from it?

ari The hair loss for me, however slight, would be a problem as I don't have much to start with, and have less than ever since having my son. So that will go on a back burner for a bit I think. Do you feel as great as they say you should, or is it counteracted by all the other stuff you're taking?

Could I ask how old all you ladies are? I'm 41.

Havingkittens Tue 19-Jun-12 22:02:54

brownstag, this is my 4th cycle. I've had either one or no eggs the last 3 cycles. It's taken Gonal F and Tamoxifen to get me this far! I'm 42 by the way.

buzzybee123 Tue 19-Jun-12 22:12:03

brownstag i'm 39 and trying for my first

CareBear1 Wed 20-Jun-12 00:18:58

I'm 34 and trying for my first (for 4.5 yrs so far) though my AMH was 8 recently so think my ovaries are on the older side. Brownstag for the Athens test info see Ari's posts on the Pred thread.

brownstag Wed 20-Jun-12 07:41:22

Thanks everyone. Could someone direct me to the latest Pred thread please. Mumsnet always seems to crash for me when I search for terms and a few days ago I found what I thought was the latest pred thread and posted on it only to realise it was from months ago. I don't think I've quite worked out how this all works. confused

Havingkittens Wed 20-Jun-12 09:21:21

Add it to your "Threads I'm Watching" list. If you put it on the "Threads I'm On" list it will fall off if you don't post for a few days. If you loose it again just go to the Conception board and it's usually on the first page.

Arianrhod Wed 20-Jun-12 09:34:37

kittens Well that sounds positive then .. and 2 follies is excellent, I understand Mr S doesn't like to see more than 2 or 3 anyway. Did amuse me how surprised he was that I responded well to the Letrozole, does make you wonder at how much chance he really thinks we all have! But I do feel he's a genuine sort of guy, even while he's adding to his holiday fund smile

brownstag I don't know that there's much extra in the way of hair loss, to be honest - I don't get the "feel great" buzz that apparently some women can get, but neither do I feel any worse smile And no, no side effects whatsoever from the hydroxy. I had the blood tests you're supposed to have after 6 months on the hydroxy and all was absolutely fine, so I know it's not doing anything it shouldn't to me!
If you can't find the Athens info ping me, I'll send it all to you. And to answer your question, I'm 44 and trying (for 2 years now) for my second, but first (DD) was with a different partner. And I'm still not sure if I'm not just pursuing an impossible dream ... but for now, I keep pursuing.

brownstag Wed 20-Jun-12 10:13:35

Thanks Havingkittens and Ari.
Yes, it's so difficult to know how long to carry on. Just wish someone could tell me whether I'm wasting my time and money so that, if so, I could settle down to make the most of the life I've got, and be grateful for what I have. On the other hand, I don't want to get to the menopause and regret I didn't do everything I could. Plus, although this treatment is expensive, and a constant drain, it's not in the realms of IVF. I know people who've had IVF, bankrupted themselves and still had no children to show for it.

Pebbles73 Wed 20-Jun-12 17:09:23

Hi ladies, has got busy on here since I last popped on! As I am not super oving until next month have just been lurking.

Kittens did you ask to go on the hydroxy or did Mr S suggest it? People seem to be doing quite well on that so seems like a good option. Glad your scan went well. Pred is making me so hyper this month, find it hard concentrating on one thing and then find can't remember what I did/said!!

How long until you get your results Ari?

Havingkittens Wed 20-Jun-12 17:45:01

I asked if there was an alternative to pred, knowing full well about hydroxy but not mentioning it as I didn't want him to think it was because of us comparing notes. I told him it made me feel really bad and that I'd been on it for over a year and was a bit concerned. I think the fact I've been on the pred for so long was what swayed his decision. I find the pred the same as you. Really hard to think straight and rather agitated to say the least.

Pebbles73 Wed 20-Jun-12 17:57:03

Thanks Kittens hope hydroxy is the thing that works for you. I guess I will have to be on pred for a while before asking. Just have to think of the bonus of having great skin for once! Did I see you say in here you can't have laser hair removal while on it? I have one of those home lumea ones somebody gave me and have used a few times recently.

Abney Wed 20-Jun-12 18:04:54

Hi all. AF turned up yesterday which was good timing as just returned from hols. Due to take Gonal F today. Can someone advise if you inject into your tummy?

Kittens all the best with your follies. I hope it will be your turn this month.

Havingkittens Wed 20-Jun-12 19:05:16

Yep, in the tummy. Be prepared, it made me super tired! Doesn't hurt at all though. Even less so than Ovitrelle as the dose is much smaller. Good luck!

Havingkittens Wed 20-Jun-12 19:07:19

pebbles they wouldn't do laser on my face at the clinic as they said steroids thin the skin so more susceptible to burning or damage, I guess.

lemonsherbet Wed 20-Jun-12 20:37:14

Ladies I may be joining you. Saw Mr S who has now suggested SO. I am not sure because I know I am ovulating monthly at least that is what the OPK says. He has given me the info to think about.

Abney Wed 20-Jun-12 21:13:30

Hi kittens thanks for your help. Just did it. Was scared stiff that I would do it wrong. Let's hope I have plenty more follies next time and thanks for warning me re tiredness. Does anyone know of anyone getting pg with Gonal F? I started off with 3 follies but due to the last few times only having 1 follie Dr S advised me that I should go on Gonal F. I paid about £34 each for them. Is this the lowest price do you think? I got them from Boots.

Havingkittens Thu 21-Jun-12 07:38:45

£34 each for Gonal F? How did you get them? In vials? I got a pen, like the Ovitrelle from Healthcare at Home. Can't remember the exact amount but somewhere around £90 for 300 iu which covers all 4 doses.

lemon, I was getting positive OPKs before I started on SO so I think the idea is just to produce more than one egg so there's more chance of fertilization.

Arianrhod Thu 21-Jun-12 08:24:50

abney They use gonal-f with IVF, so I'm sure there are plenty of ladies who get pregnant on it.

lemon I ovulate regular as clockwork every month, but I'm still doing SO - for me, just to give my body double the chance to get pregnant each month, that's all. I would say it's been no hassle for me - the Letrozole has given me no side effects when I'm taking it, and apart from not liking injecting the Ovitrelle (it's not difficult, I just don't like injections), even that's been fine.

buzzybee123 Thu 21-Jun-12 10:40:32

i paid £134 for a 450iu pen from healthcare at home about 2 months ago

lemonsherbet Thu 21-Jun-12 15:35:18

Does anyone know how you arrange the scans? I live about 3hours away and do not think I will easily be able to get to see Mr S. I work full time and so can only really make his saturdays at the moment.

buzzybee123 Thu 21-Jun-12 15:56:41

lemon you can have a scan closer to home and have the results read by Mr Shehata but you'll have to pay for the privilege, it wasn't cheap but can't remember exactly how much. If you are going to book a scan with him you just call Cheryl and she organises it

I can't remember if it was this thread where someone asked about sharp bins for your needles. Boots sell them for £1.75, personally I think they should be supplied.

Arianrhod Thu 21-Jun-12 18:25:09

Thanks buzzy, what do you do with the sharps bin once it's full, do you know? I asked at my local pharmacy, they didn't know other than to ask at my GP.

Havingkittens Thu 21-Jun-12 18:26:36

Healthcare at home gave me a sharps bin with my gonal f

buzzybee123 Thu 21-Jun-12 22:22:37

kittens I would have expected them to give me one but the didn't

ari your GP should take them or advise you, they will have their own to dispose of.

Arianrhod Mon 25-Jun-12 09:09:16

Morning ladies, hope you're all doing well on this fine sunny day!

Can I ask a quick question please - did any of you find the Letrozole played funny tricks on your AF? I am on CD8 today, AF lasted CD1 to CD3 with some spotting CD4 then nothing CD5 & 6 but then I started bleeding again yesterday on CD7 (with some light cramping too) and a small amount today too. It wasn't huge amounts, but enough for me to classify it as a "light bleed" day rather than just spotting. I don't get it - how can your AF restart after two days of nothing? What gives? Anyone experienced anything like this at all?

brownstag Mon 25-Jun-12 09:23:56

ari My only experience so far is of my abandoned letrozole cycle a few cycles ago; I only took one tablet, but I ovulated much earlier than usual and my period was much heavier than usual (which I was pleased with, as I felt it meant a thicker lining).
Also, sorry for the appalling memory, but was it with you I was discussing the Athens test? I still can't find the info, so if it was you, please could you send it to my inbox. Is there a way of searching the thread you're in? confused

Arianrhod Mon 25-Jun-12 13:16:37

PMd you brown .. smile And the way I search the thread is set it to show all messages (top of the thread option) and good old Find/Search on the web page. I'm sure there's a more technical way of doing it smile

Well I did some reading around, of course, and it seems this can happen with Femara/Letrozole, I've read quite a few ladies saying it happened to them too, their AF seemed to restart itself a couple of days after it finished. Comments have been from their consultants to the effect of it's your body clearing out old lining, and it is browny red rather than bright red so that would seem possible. Who knows .. hopefully when I have my scan on Thu all will be fine and it's nothing to worry about!

CareBear1 Mon 25-Jun-12 18:46:40

Ari I've had almost exactly what you describe both this month and last month. I didn't really pay much attention as I get all sorts of random bleeding.

Arianrhod Tue 26-Jun-12 09:39:45

Thanks care .. well I've now had a three-day AF and a two-day AF this month, how bizarre! I don't ever get random bleeding and this is a little unsettling, but hey, if it's what Letrozole does, then at least I know it's not my body doing weird stuff all by itself! smile

mrsmellow Tue 26-Jun-12 13:39:22

Hi ladies, I wonder if I can ask a letrozole related question please? I have PCOS and had one cycle of clomid, but a scan showed that my uterine lining was thinned (as a side effect) so I have been told to take letrozole. Fine, except I'm on holiday and my gynae had suggested I had a scan on CD14 to check I wasn't developing many many follicles and at risk of multiple pregnancy - i.e. her advice would be to not have sex if lots of follicles developing. From what I read on here, most people are just put on clomid or letrozole and sent away - is that your experience? has anyone heard this advice? I am seeing her privately and secretly suspect that the extra scans are a money making venture... I recognise it is good to see a follicle developing, but don't want to (as she recommends) find someone to do a scan while I'm on holiday and then abstain from holiday SWI (which must be more fun wink )
Thanks in advance

Arianrhod Tue 26-Jun-12 14:26:36

Hi mrsmellow ... I have to have a scan between day 11 and day 13 of my cycle to see what follicles have developed and what size they are, then Mr S tells me when to take the trigger shot. I understand he is also looking at the same time to make sure there aren't too many follicles, due to the risk of multiple pregnancy, as you've been told - so I don't believe in this instance your consultant is just trying to get more £££ out of you smile

mrsmellow Tue 26-Jun-12 22:35:48

Thanks, I ll try to get a scan in that case.

brownstag Wed 27-Jun-12 09:40:17

A very faint line 13dpo on an internet cheapie, first month of letrozole, only 2 weeks on hydroxychloroquine. Off to find a First Response.

Arianrhod Wed 27-Jun-12 10:53:13

Fantastic brown, that sounds positive! (if you'll excuse the completely unintended pun) ...

brownstag Wed 27-Jun-12 11:03:42

Sadly Clear Blue says no. Oddly I was going to post on here yesterday to ask if anyone else uses the cheapie sensitive internet tests that are used by the NHS apparently. They have a blue top end of the stick and the ovulation tests have a green one.
In my obsessive peerings each month I often have some that get faint grey lines at the test area, not a full-depth line, just an evaporation line. Does anyone get that? I've learned to never get excited about those. But these two this morning were full depth, albeit very faint.

Arianrhod Wed 27-Jun-12 11:58:11

Clearblue is less sensitive than FRER remember - IIRC to 25miu where FRER is something like 5-10 miu. I know some ladies swear by those cheapie internet tests; for me, I stick to FRER (and Clearblue when I'm further along. Although that doesn't seem to be happening these days!).

brownstag Wed 27-Jun-12 12:29:18

I debated in the chemist's between Clear Blue and First Response, but went for Clear Blue digital because it says 'Pregnant' or 'Not pregnant', and I thought there'd be no peering for ambiguous second lines as there is with the others. The internet cheapies are supposed to be 25 as well, so perhaps there's still some hope. I'm feeling very 'womby' this morning but maybe that's the progesterone pessary I used as soon as I thought I saw the lines this morning!

lemonsherbet Wed 27-Jun-12 22:47:24

Am having a bit of a freak out looked at dr google and have convinced myself am perimenopausal and barren based on my recent blood tests and Mr S on holiday

BellyD Wed 27-Jun-12 23:27:31

Hi lemon do you mind sharing your results? I've had those tests done for the last three months and my FSH has ranged from 19.4 to 12.2 so the results fluctuate quite significantly each month. Also, to give you hope, I am now a tiny 4+3 weeks pregnant with an Fsh of 16.4 after SO. Massive potential for things to go wrong still but I had the same fears as you and certainly wasn't expecting anything to happen this month. I hope that calms your fears a bit. I think Dr Google has a lot to answer for sometimes.

lemonsherbet Wed 27-Jun-12 23:38:52

My FSH and LH was good. FSH 7.1 LH 6.5
oestradiol 126.

GP had said all was OK. But reading on google oestrdiol should be under 50 and anything over 100 is regarded has significantly abnorm when day 3. The high oestradiol is suppressing the FSH and is causing an artificially low FSH. That is what dr google said. Only turned 36 last week, and yet this seems to suggest my ovaries are significantly failing. Think Mr S will say to give up or do the use donor egg speech.

lemonsherbet Wed 27-Jun-12 23:39:55

bellyD congrats on the pregnancy and does make me feel better that can work when FSH is high

BellyD Thu 28-Jun-12 07:05:50

lemon I know that anything below 10 for FSH is great and your LH is fine too. I am not sure about the Oestradial simply because I don't know enough about it, but I am pretty certain that I have had a result over 100 which Mr S said was fine. Please don't worry, I think you are a long way off from the DE speech. You are looking in pretty good shape to me, and if your Oest is too high I am sure they will be able to do something about is as it is a hormone. As far as I understand it, the FSH is the really important number, and that is perfect.

lemonsherbet Thu 28-Jun-12 07:12:12

bellyD thanks for that. It was just from reading google, it was saying the ovaries should be quiet at day 3 so you should have a low oestradiol. If the oestradiol is high over 75, then basically it will lower your fsh, giving a normal result when in fact your ovarian reserves are poor. But I feel better that MrS said it was OK and like you said I just need one egg

CareBear1 Thu 28-Jun-12 07:44:08

Lemon when I discussed my day 3 results with Mr S he said good results were FSH < 8 and E2 < 200

lemonsherbet Thu 28-Jun-12 08:11:30

Thank you so much Care feel like a complete idiot now. Will trust the power of Dr S words over goggle.

Arianrhod Thu 28-Jun-12 08:31:13

Trouble with Dr Google is there are SO many conflicting reports out there. I answered on the Pred thread lemon but truly, try not to worry - your results look good as far as I can see but even if you were peri-menopausal it doesn't mean you're not fertile. FF is full of ladies happily pregnant with higher FSH levels than yours (by a long way) - peri-menopause doesn't mean you cannot conceive any more, simply that the body is beginning its process of winding down. There will still be many more eggies just waiting their chance. Least I hope so, since I think that's probably where I am! smile

Arianrhod Thu 28-Jun-12 20:37:42

Well ladies, reporting back after my appt with Mr S today. Apart from the fact that it appears only my left ovary is working, it hid - Mr S couldn't find it! It took two separate internal scans and an abdominal one before he eventually found it. Poor chap was really good about it, I felt quite bad for him, but he was persistent and found it in the end! Did anyone know your ovaries could hide? I certainly didn't.

Well I haven't responded as well to the Letrozole this month, 2 follies last month but just the one this month. 20mm on day 11 though, so crossing fingers it's Super Follie smile Mr S wants me on gonal-f along with the Letrozole next time - well actually the cycle after as I will be on hol when I should be having my next follie scan so Mr S didn't want me starting a diff medication without it being monitored. So just Letrozole again next cycle, if my Super Follie doesn't do the trick this month.

I told Mr S I've sent a sample off to Athens for infection testing; he was fine about it, just said that the labs here he's spoken to have all said they don't do those tests because they believe they're too open to different interpretation and don't believe they're worth doing. However Mr S does appear to be very open to the idea of more testing; OH and I are being tested for LAD, DQa and karyotyoing, and OH is being tested for SA and DNA fragmentation. Mr S then asked if there was anything else we thought we should be tested for, he was quite happy to add others. I asked about having a hysteroscopy, he said he didn't think it was probably necessary for me but thought it is probably worth doing if only to rule it out. So I have to clear it with my insurance company (crossing fingers they'll agree to it) then try to schedule it in for the cycle after next, since holiday timing means I'll miss the window for it

Mr S was telling me one of his ladies (success story) had 24 miscarriages before having her baby. 24 .. can you imagine the strength that woman must have to have kept going?? Incredible.

Arianrhod Fri 29-Jun-12 14:53:41

brownstag any further testing news??

CareBear1 Fri 29-Jun-12 16:07:13

Hi ladies,

Ari one of 20mm sounds quite good, that's quite a big one. I'm not quite sure I understand why producing 2 or 3 at a time is better than just one, other than giving you more chances, I can't see that it improves conditions if that makes sense.

I've just had my results back from Athens, and have tested positive for 3 different bacterial infections. hmm Its a bit confusing when someone like MR S has said there's nothing in these tests. I'm just waiting for advice back from Penny on what treatment is recommended. I'm not sure what to do if the advice is conflicting with the SO treatment plan - i.e. if they recommend stopping the SO and taking antibiotics should I do that even though Mr S would recommend the opposite!?? Any thoughts welcome. Ari have you had your results yet?

eurochick Fri 29-Jun-12 16:36:54

Carebear that is interesting! I hope this will give you some answers. Do you mind me asking how you went about getting those tests? Did you contact Athens directly? How long did it all take?

If you can't run the antibs alongside SO, personally I would postpone the SO to take the antibs. You have a possible answer now. If embryos are failing to implant because of these infections, and they are what are raising your NK cell count, then it seems logical to me to treat the infections first before carrying on with assisted conception. Just my view, of course. I'm really excited for you that you might have found an answer. You are similar to me I think but a little further down the line? (i.e. never had a BFP and tried various forms of assistance).

Arian did you have those additional tests done through Mr S? I thought he only focussed on NK cells and I would have to go to Gorgy for things like DQa.

CareBear1 Fri 29-Jun-12 17:04:53

thanks Euro - that's what i was thinking to do, nice to hear someone else say the same (no point talking to DH he just says 'do whatever') and its not helpful these doctors disagree with each other! it would make sense wouldn't it if infections are causing the NK cell rise and stopping implantation - yes i'm the same as you in that never had a bfp but all hormone levels and SA results in the 'very good' range.

I rang the athens clinic directly - they seemed non-surprised to get a phonecall from england - and they said to just put the sample in the post along with a letter giving my name, DOB, address and what infections i wanted testing for (i just said 'everything') - they took my email address and emailed me the detail of their bank account and the price, 270 euro). I just did an internet bank transfer and emailed them to confirm. I was very impressed in that they emailed me as soon as they received the sample to let me know, emailed me when the payment had gone through etc. I sent the sample off on day 2 and i'm now day 11. I'll keep you posted with what treatment they recommend.

Abney Fri 29-Jun-12 18:40:48

Hi all, Just a quick update from me. For the past 4 SO treatments only the first showed up anything on the left ovary and the follies were too small. SO scans 2 - 4 only showed follies on my right. Started with 3 on the first occassion and then for the last few times I have had only 1 follie albeit a good size one. Went to see Dr S today for scan. This time I took Gonal F and Letrozole. To my surprise I had 2 24mm follies on my left and none on my right. Dr S said that it looks like the Gonal F had kickstarted my left ovary. V strange. I see this as a good omen i.e. seen as though I haven't got a BFP from my right side perhaps the eggs are better quality this time round on the left. Anyway Ari I guess I am on more or less the same cycle as you and therefore I guess we will be both busy over the next couple of days. By the way luckily I didn't get any side effects with the Gonal F. Also Dr S said if I need it next month then I can pick it up from their Epsom clinic at a cost of £90 which is better than the £142 I paid at boots. He said that if I don't get a BFP this time then we could discuss what to do next at the next SO scan. I am assuming he means IUI (or whatever it is called or IVF). Anyway good luck to all TTC's.

brownstag Fri 29-Jun-12 18:52:15

lemonsherbert, I had exactly the same reaction as you. My results were very similar to yours, and I must have read the same websites as you, after which I went from being quite happy to totally depressed. That night I didn't sleep and just lay there thinking it was time to give up the idea of a baby and accept what I'd got in life. I wasn't even going to bother going to see Mr S. But when I saw Mr S, he completely swept those fears away.
Ari, thanks for asking; First Response also said no, and I'm now on day 1 of what promises to be a heavy, painful period (since I've had my son, they've been light and painless, which I've always found worrying, as prior to my son they were heavy and painful). I still have one of the tests with the faint lines on, which I shall keep to remind myself not to get excited by anything resembling it in future! The line must have been an evaporation line, although it was the full-width and depth of the test area. But it was faint grey, not pink.
I really think I need to get these Athens tests done too ...
Do we know anyone who has had success after being treated for these infections?

Arianrhod Fri 29-Jun-12 21:01:03

Hi ladies .. carebear very interesting to hear it picked up 3 infections. Can I ask please, are you having to pay extra to get the results interpreted/advice from Penny? Only I read on the FF advice that they charge an extra 100 euros (on top of the 270 euros) to interpret and issue a prescription, which I find really quite a lot of money! I haven't got my results yet because they only received my sample yesterday, I have to do the bank transfer to pay them.

euro Yes I'm having the extra tests done through Mr S at TDL - he was very happy to discuss extra tests, to my surprise, and on talking to Louise before I saw him she mentioned that he's always on the lookout for new angles and tests. He actually mentioned a new sperm test that he's looking into with the lab in Spain, but he said he wants to see more data before considering actually using it. I was very reassured by his attitude, to be honest.

abney Really interesting to hear the gonal-f kickstarted your previously dormant ovary! I wonder if it might do the same for me? Thing is, as far as I know my right ovary has never worked - how would I know? My DD might be the result of an egg from the left, I would never know.

brownstag Ah, I'm sorry to hear that, those faint lines are a real bummer sad I don't know anyone personally who has had success after the infection treatment, but there are several ladies on the Fertility Friends that have had success, don't know them personally but that sounds good to me! Also several ladies who said their AFs returned properly after clearing up the infections.

Only slight concern for me is the 25-day regime of anti-bs for you and partner, plus they say to use 'barrier contraception' for the whole time. Hum.

brownstag Sat 30-Jun-12 07:18:29

Thanks Ari; these tests are on menstrual blood, aren't they? I'm on day 2 at the moment; is there enough time to get it sorted this month? Presumably they won't be there at the weekend, and I usually have a 4-day period.

CareBear1 Sat 30-Jun-12 16:33:40

Brownstag i would just organise your sample and put it in the post to them, and ring them on monday to say you're sending it and can they email you the details of how to pay.

Arianrhod Sat 30-Jun-12 20:18:09

Absolutely brownstag, as carebear says, get your sample collected and post off to them, if you pm me your email address I'll mail you the instruction doc Penny sent me if you haven't got it? As I said before though it's a couple of drops of blood or so, mix with 5 to 10 ml saline, wrap so it doesn't get damaged and enclose a note with what you want testing.

Well, I think we aren't in with a chance already. I triggered Thu night so should have ovulated 36 hours later, which would have been around d 10am this morning. However, I have had no OV pains at all - and I always get quite strong pains, every month without fail - so I assume I haven't ovulated at all sad. Guess this just wasn't my month.

CareBear1 Sat 30-Jun-12 20:48:09

Ari you never know, could be the letrozole that's changed your pains. I had virtually no period pains this month for the first time ever.

eurochick Sat 30-Jun-12 21:12:58

Brownstag, I got the info sheet abut the tests emailed from Serum on Friday. I'd be happy to forward it to you if you PM me your email address.

Arianrhod Sat 30-Jun-12 22:19:59

Nice idea care, thanks for the positive thought. However I did get OV pains the past two cycles, my first two on Letrozole/Ovitrelle and I was just reading that if a follicle has no egg in it, you won't ovulate (and so no ovulation pains) so it's likely that's what happened.

lemonsherbet Sat 30-Jun-12 22:27:57

Ari you never know you may very well of ovulated. You know at least there was a good looking follicle there. Don't count yourself out now. I thought the ovulation pain was when the follicle ruptures so you should have it anyway because you have had the trigger shot to encourage it to do that.

brownstag Sun 01-Jul-12 08:38:59

Ari and Eurochick, thanks, yes please, if either if you could send me the instructions/info sheet, that would be great. It's Sunday today, so I'm not sure where I can get a sterile phial, or whatever you have to use to put it in.
Also Ari, last month on the letrozole I had no ovary pain but I did ovulate. I also didn't feel any ovarian stimulation during the letrozole days, where I had done on Clomid previously. Do you not chart? I've been charting for so long that I still carry on even though I'm on the drugs. That way you can know you've ovulated for sure. Mine was a perfect chart last month (except without the pregnancy part!)
My Ovulation Chart[/url]
Also, as to periods on the letrozole, this period has been so heavy, with lots of clots. Yesterday, day 2, I flooded through tampon, knickers and jeans three times! The heaviest period of my life since having a 12-week miscarriage.

brownstag Sun 01-Jul-12 08:41:45

Don't think that link worked ...
<a href="">My Ovulation Chart</a>

Havingkittens Sun 01-Jul-12 08:47:21

If you just copy and paste the url and then click in the little box to the bottom left of the box you type in it will turn them into links for you without having to do all that twiddling about with brackets ;)

brownstag Sun 01-Jul-12 08:48:17

I give up.

eurochick Sun 01-Jul-12 10:02:07

Or put double square brackets around the link.

brownstag I'm happy to send you the sheet but I need an email address for you. I don't think I can send documents as a PM on here.

You can get a sample pot from Boots (and probably any chemist) for about 80p.

brownstag Sun 01-Jul-12 10:39:16

Thanks, have just sent a PM with it Eurochick I shall be off to Boots forthwith.
Does anyone else do fertility charting, by the way? It's a bit obsessive, but isn't everything to do with TTC a bit obsessive? I just like knowing for sure whether I've ovulated or not. Also, on natural cycles I always get a dip just before ovulation which gives you a bit of notice.

href="">My Ovulation Chart</a>

brownstag Sun 01-Jul-12 10:40:51

Still didn't work, but I think it's Fertility Friend, not Mumsnet, that's the issue.

CareBear1 Sun 01-Jul-12 11:50:13

Brownstag think you need slightly different address

- is this yours?

i can only see one chart, does that mean you haven't paid for the upgrade?

i actually gave up when i started SO but am going to start again now so i can chart through taking the anti b's and beyond to see what happens.
these are my charts from a while back

eurochick Sun 01-Jul-12 13:15:55

Brownstag email sent. I hope it is helpful.

I am another charter. I've been doing it for over a year. I get nice charts but never a BFP. This is the link to my charts (current chart is very dull because I didn't see the point of temping alongside IVF but I am using it to record which drugs I am taking when plus the main side effects).

brownstag Sun 01-Jul-12 16:41:08

Thanks Carebear and Eurochick; nice charts. That is indeed my chart (well, there are two, one only just begun and my previous one) and I haven't paid for the upgrade; partly because I knew I would start obsessively searching for every conceivable variable. I was having some CBT at the time, and my counsellor had pointed out that the charting, the lining up of OPKs on the windowsill, the forums, the internet searches, etc. were all 'safety behaviours' to help me cope with the anxiety of TTC and not knowing whether I would ever be sucessful. So I tried to limit myself with the charting!

Arianrhod Mon 02-Jul-12 10:36:16

Morning ladies - Glad you got sorted out brownstag and to answer your question no I don't temp, I can't because I wake up (or rather, am woken up) at too many varied times by my DD, I'd never be able to take my temperature first on waking up and the times would vary too much.

I do use, or rather have until this month, the Clearblue Fertility Monitor, backing it up with Clearblue Digital OPKs, but I find that the Letrozole messes around with both of these so didn't use it this month. Neither would show 'true' ovulation either, since they just register spikes in LH/hCG and the Ovitrelle of course would show as a spike. I'll be very very surprised if I did ovulate this month; as I say, I always get ovulation pains, every single month, but of course I'll be delighted if I did. Not that I'll know, of course, unless I get that miraculous BFP ... but you know, that too would be Sod's Law, as I would be due to test (at 12 dpo, assuming I ovultated 36ish hours after the trigger shot) on Thu 12th and I fly to Spain on Fri 13th so no time to get intralipids! Would then be 2 weeks before I get back. So definitely would be Law of Sod if I did manage to get the BFP this month! Still, I'll worry about that if it happens!

care Can I ask what your regime is for the anti-bs - did Penny prescribe you the 25-day one, and does your OH have to take anti-bs too? Is she sending you a prescription through? And (if you don't mind me asking) did she charge you extra for interpreting your results and supplying you with a prescription, if she did? I'm just worried about the mounting costs .. I just sent my payment for the tests and that ended up at £226, which was more than I'd realised it would be.

suemays Mon 02-Jul-12 11:15:52

Ari I would advise doing a test at 10dpo and then trying to get the intrallipids in before you go away if you get a BFP. I had my intrallipids at around 13 dpo this time but would have got them earlier if it didn't fall over a weekend. Will you be doing tests to check if the ovitrelle is out of your system first?
I tried charting for a while but I also would be woken up at different times in the morning by DD so it wasnt accurate for me either. I did find it quite obsessive as I was paranoid about going to bed at the same time every night so would try and not be out late etc - I felt like it ruined my social life!

Arianrhod Mon 02-Jul-12 12:11:54

Mmm that's the problem sue, my tests at 10dpo have all shown a very (very) faint line since starting SO indicating the Ovitrelle was only just clearing out of my system, so I really do need to wait till 12dpo to know if any line is genuine. Only thing I can do it test Thu morning and if by some miracle Lady Luck is smiling on me and I get a strong enough BFP to convince me, then I'll plead with NLC to either fit me in Thu afternoon or very first thing Fri since we fly out late afternoon. OH wouldn't be happy, but what else could I do? Other than wait 2 weeks! Anyway, I'm getting waaaaay ahead of myself; as I say, I'm not going to worry about it unless it happens.

brownstag Mon 02-Jul-12 14:27:27

Ari and Carebear I just sent my sample off for the Athens test this morning, just by ordinary post. Do you know how long it takes before you get the results?
As to charting, I wouldn't worry too much about the getting up and going to bed at the same time every day; all my charts have been clear enough to show ovulation despite periods of a) acute insomnia b) being woken up several times a night by DS and c) drunken nights out. Alcohol is the thing that affects it most, I find. After you've been doing it for a few months you get to be a bit of an expert and so you don't need to do it every day, just the times approaching ovulation and a few days afterwards. And I do like that reassurance of knowing I ovulated. It's also nice when the software agrees with your OPK.
Interesting that your tests showed faint lines from the Ovitrelle, Ari; this was my first month of using it, and I started testing at 6dpo (yeah, right) all the way through and I had no lines at all until that evaporation line at 13dpo.

suemays Mon 02-Jul-12 15:52:50

ari what you could do is speak to Louise and ask if you could get the prescription sent across and book the appointment for thurs pm or fri am and then cancel it if you don't get a bfp. They don't charge for cancellations due to all the CPs. Louise might not agree to doing it so if you think there is a slight chance you might get a bfp you could lie and say you have a bfp already. They might not have any appointments anyway.

Abney Mon 02-Jul-12 17:58:33

Hi all, just to add when I tested after my first SO treatment I tested at 10 DPO and jumped for joy when I got a 'pregnant 1 - 2 weeks' on the Clearblue only to test the very next morning for a BFN. I guess a good sign would be to test day 9, 10 and 11 to see if the line gets stonger or weaker. Is it possible to go from strong lines to ziltch and then back again? Next Monday is day 11 for me. 'Ari' when did you take the Ovitrelle? I am almost in the same boat as you ie going to Isle of Wight Saturday week. If I do need intralipids I have 4 days to arrange it? Anyway good luck to both of us.

brownstag Mon 02-Jul-12 19:00:44

Next Monday (9th) day 11 for me too, Abney! Sounds like you've had as disappointing a first month of SO as I did. sad

Abney Mon 02-Jul-12 19:44:12

Hi Brownstag that's good so that is at least 3 of us testing next week. More BFP's please. Made me laugh about the first SO scan, I am on my 5th SO attempt now grin. I am glad in a way because it gave me chance to see what people were saying about Hydroxy which I have now been on for more than 6 weeks. This is when I am told it kicks in.

BetterOnACamel Mon 02-Jul-12 20:40:51

Sorry to intrude but I'm hoping this is the right place to ask for advice on Letrozole. DH and I have been TTC 2.5yrs and are finally in the system. First appt. not till October though. Tests and swabs have all come back 'normal' according to GP. In the meanwhile though I've been given one cycle's worth of the tablets by my family ob-gyn back in ME/Asia who suggested 'having a go'. GP and home ob-gyn both said not to chart (very irregular so OPKs not much use either) so I don't even know when I ovulate, if at all.
My question is whether there's any point to it given that it won't be monitored and there are no injections etc. to go with it. DH very keen on trying it out but I'm so stressed out that I doubt anything will work so is it worth yet more disappointment?

brownstag Tue 03-Jul-12 08:33:10

BetteronaCamel (love the name) Yes, there is a point in trying. In fact, when I was given Clomid on the NHS I wasn't scanned, just had a day 21 progesterone test. The rest I did myself with OPKs and charting. If you're used to charting I would definitely continue. I get a dip before ovulation which gives me a bit of notice; along with the OPK I could pinpoint ovulation and confirm it with a temperature shift. Didn't work though, but as Mr S says, Clomid should never be given to the over 35s and I'm 41. With the Clomid I was told to have sex days 10 to 20. On Letrozole I ovulated day 13, so if we'd done that, that would have covered it.

brownstag Tue 03-Jul-12 08:36:05

Abney, sorry I misunderstood. You meant 11dpo, I meant CD11, when I have my scan with someone else in Harley Street as Mr S is away. Good luck for next week!

brownstag Tue 03-Jul-12 08:40:25

BetteronaCamel, just thought - my answer then was thinking only about the efficacy of letrozole, but I suppose there are other issues of not being monitored, and that is the small possibility of multiples, plus any other negative side effects that might usually cause the cycle to be abandoned. Incidentally, you might be able to find a private clinic that will do just a one-off scan. Mr S is away when I need mine next week and I looked into one locally, in Tunbridge Wells, and they would do one for £250.

BetterOnACamel Tue 03-Jul-12 09:26:41

Thank you for the response brownstag! At what point in the cycle (if you start tabs on Day 3) do you get a scan?

CareBear1 Tue 03-Jul-12 09:32:41

Ari and Brown I got my results back from serum on day 11, i'd sent it on day 2. With the results they said to email Penny for advice. I did and she emailed back the following (no charge)

The treatment needs to be followed by both partners at the same time.

The antibiotics should be taken after your main meal, in order to avoid digestive problems.
Alcohol intake should be avoided during treatment period.
Day 1: 4 pills of zithromax (azithromycin) 250mg* all together preferably with empty stomach
Day 3-7: Erythromycin 500mg, 2 tablets/ day, one in the morning and one in the evening. Please avoid dairy products one hour before and one hour after the tablet.
Day 8: 4 pills of zithromax (azithromycin) 250mg* all together preferably with empty stomach
Day 9-24: Erythromycin 500mg, 2 tablets/ day, one in the morning and one in the evening. Please avoid dairy products one hour before and one hour after the tablet.

Day 25: 4 pills of zithromax 250mg* all together preferably with empty stomach

In terms of getting a prescription for these, i followed Agate's advice on fertility friends and emailed DoctorFox but they could only supply one of the two anti b's. Am off to GP today to see if they would be willing to prescribe. If they're not my plan is to email back to Penny at Serum and ask if they can send the prescription, but am expecting them to charge for this - Agate says 100 euros.

I told her I was doing Super Ov with Letrozole and Prednisolone and she said I 'wouldn't necessarily need to stop treatment'. I'm sure Mr S would advise not to stop treatment also. However in my circumstances, i've had this random bleeding ever since i came off the pill that i'd really like to see if that cleared up after anti b's, also i want the peace of mind that these infections have cleared before i carry on ttc. i'll probably have a couple of cycles naturally after they've cleared, just out of interest and then see what to do after that. i do feel at the moment that Mr S identified the symptom, of very high nk cells but not the cause. i did ask him about this and he said 'why do some people develop asthma'. However Dr Gorgy on his website says infections can aggravate the immune system.

i'll be interested in your results, hope you get them back soon.

Betteronacamel i've come to the conclusion that if you can afford monitoring with scans etc its so worth it as its the only way to really know what's happening with ovaries / lining thickness - information is power as they say.

brownstag Tue 03-Jul-12 10:36:16

BetteronaCamel, we take them days 2 to 6, and then get a scan between days 10 and 12.
CareBear, that's very interesting, thanks. Did you have more than one infection?, if you don't mind my asking.

brownstag Tue 03-Jul-12 12:13:08

Could someone tell me what are the extra tests offered by Dr Gorgy that are not offered by Mr Shehata please.

Arianrhod Tue 03-Jul-12 13:57:14

Welcome betteronacamel, brownstag has answered the question nicely smile

brownstag Well it seems Mr Shehata will pretty much test for whatever you want, as far as my experience last week went, but Dr G does the 'Chicago' tests including the hidden-C .. check out duggs post(s) earlier, I think she listed everything Dr G tested for.

carebear that's really interesting, thanks for your reply. So it is the standard 25-day course of anti-bs then - I'd be very interested to hear if your GP will prescribe any of the anti-bs, I don't know how much they will be privately. I do wonder, you know, whether most people would test positive for one or other of these infections anyway. I rather dread telling OH he has to follow a 25-day course of anti-bs, I suspect he wouldn't take them. Haven't got my results through yet, hoping it will be soon! Watch out for that avoid dairy catch - that means no milk, so no morning cereal unless you use soya milk, of course!

CareBear1 Tue 03-Jul-12 14:35:58

Well I saw the GP and she said the anti-b's were fairly standard and what they would prescribe here for this type of infection, but usually for a shorter period than 25 days. She did say though that the chlamydiae test in particular, would show up any strand or type, and that the NHS thinking over here is that its only one strand of it that's the harmful one (which is the one they test for). She also said that a lot of these bacteria are around and wouldn't necessarily cause any difficulty. She agreed to prescribe them, but just for me, DH will have to go on his own which is a bit of a pain (why is nothing ever simple!). However she did admit she wasn't a fertility specialist and had never heard of immunosuprressants being used in fertility. She calmly received the news I'd posted menstrual blood to Athens, and then about a minute later, the penny dropped and said 'you did what?!!'.

So, I'm still none the wiser but am planning to plough on and take them anyway and see what happens. Still not a gold plated guarantee of success it would seem.

Arianrhod Tue 03-Jul-12 14:44:55

smile to your GP's surprise smile So what will happen with DH, will he be taking the anti-bs as well? I just ask because as I mentioned, I doubt very much my own OH will agree to taking them, which worries me as they say if you have an infection they do too - and if you clear it but they don't, they will just reinfect you! sad

CareBear1 Tue 03-Jul-12 14:56:29

I'm going to make him an appointment at another time in order to get him the prescription. DH has agreed to take them - he knows he would have one huge strop from me if he refused after me taking all these drugs so far - i feel quite strongly its the least he can do! The biggest problem for me is that i doubt he'll manage to stay tee-total for 25 days, and drinking may lessen their effect. I have lectured him about it! However i did read (i think it was in Agate's notes?) that these infections tend to linger longer and are harder to get rid of in females and males. My plan is for us both to do the antib's, to wait until a 2nd period after and then re-test to make sure they are gone, and if they are gone then I'll assume that has treated DH too.

I must admit i'm feeling a bit fed up and just want to get on with it.

CareBear1 Tue 03-Jul-12 14:57:29

sorry that should have read 'in females than males'

Arianrhod Tue 03-Jul-12 16:02:52

Good to hear your DH will take them ... as for strops, well I'm having enough problems getting my OH to go along for his own testing, booked for this Fri morning but he's really not happy about it. Sigh. I read what you did, that these infections last longer in us females than the guys - did you note that sex has to be protected too, while you're taking the anti-bs? Think OH would object to that too! grin

Arianrhod Tue 03-Jul-12 16:05:11
brownstag Tue 03-Jul-12 16:35:18

Not sure what I'll do about my DH taking the antibiotics if necessary. Haven't actually mentioned the Athens test to him. He's not exactly on board with the whole immunosuppressive therapy idea in the first place, let alone something else, even though we had my DS with the aid of it. He thinks our DS was 'just meant to be' and that any doctors dealing in this area are charlatans, with all of us desperate ladies dangling on strings. Needless to say, all this treatment is coming out of my money!

Arianrhod Tue 03-Jul-12 16:41:45

Oh heck brownstag, sounds like you're in a similar position to me then. OH is ok with the immunology side of things, but not particularly enthusiastic about doing anything himself, hence the majority of it is coming out of my money (think he's paid for one scan). And he doesn't know I've sent off for the Athens test, although I have mentioned to him that others have done this. I'll wait for the results before telling him.

brownstag Tue 03-Jul-12 19:51:06

Yes, Ari, it makes things even more of an uphill struggle than it already is, doesn't it? And I only work about 2 days a week, so the coffers are going to run dry pretty soon. I think it boils down to the fact that secretly DH would be quite happy with just one child, being an only child himself.

brownstag Wed 04-Jul-12 09:20:21

Ari, which DHEA brand do you take and how much?
I ordered some DHEA months ago from Vitasunn; they were supposedly vegetarian capsules but quite a high dose, higher than I would have normally chosen to take (can't remember what it was now) but they worked out the best value and were vegetarian (I'm vegan). But when they arrived (after ages) the ingredients listed gelatine so I sent them back, and they are not on their website any more.
Do you still take coenzyme Q10? I saw on an old thread you were taking it too.
I was also taking saw palmetto, which improved my cervical mucous, but Mr S had never heard of it and told me to stop. It's supposed to be good for general fertility and is also used as an expectorant, which probably explains the effect on cervical mucous, if not a direct hormonal effect.
Plus tonnes of evening primrose oil prior to ovulation.

Arianrhod Wed 04-Jul-12 09:55:25

brownstag Well I've tried two brands, Ultimate Nutrition DHEA from (1 x 25mg 100 tablets and 1 x 50mg 100 tablets) which cost me £36 incl shipping, and the one that everyone says is the best (because there was a research paper done which used this particular brand, for no other reason), the McPherson Labs DHEA (1 x 25mg 60 tablets and 1 x 50mg 90 tablets) which cost me £46 incl. shipping. The Ultimate Nutrition ones took just under a week to get to me, the McPherson Labs ones just over two weeks.

I am just in the process of ordering more, and I have gone back to the Ultimate Nutrition DHEA, for a number of reasons. They're cheaper, in better quantities, the shipping speed is much faster, the customer service was much better (chap emailed me himself to say when he sent the package, and he marked the customs form as "gift" to ensure I didn't pay import duties), and I cannot tell the difference at all on my body - as in, the side effects, minimal though they are, are exactly the same with the two different brands. I'm reassured that both brands seem to be equal in quality - both micronised and both pharmaceutical grade with maximum purity levels (I checked all that out before buying).

To the best of my knowledge both brands are completely vegetarian (as I am veggie myself); the Ultimate Nutrition one does state on their website "100% Pure Synthetic, Not From Animals".

I take what seems to be the general recommended dose by US consultants, 75mg, split into 50mg in the morning and 50mg at night.

Co-enzyme Q10 - yes, I take 600mg a day, 300mg in the morning and 300 at night.

HTH! I rattle, to be honest, with the amount of supplements I take sad

Arianrhod Wed 04-Jul-12 09:57:26

Sorry, meant to say - I wonder whether secretly my own DP would be happy with just the one child even though that child isn't biologically his. I think he'd quite like his own baby, but at the same time he doesn't like the change it will make on our finances ... he likes his holidays every year, his footy season ticket, etc etc. Interesting thought.

brownstag Wed 04-Jul-12 10:08:36

Thanks, I'll look into that. After this month on SO I'm going to have a break, but stay on the hydroxy, and possibly start the DHEA. Maybe I'll up the coenzyme Q10 too.
Your DP sounds like a man after my DH's heart. The first thing he said when I suggested another child was 'Will I still be able to play golf twice a week?'!

Arianrhod Wed 04-Jul-12 12:22:32

Bear in mind that DHEA is reported to take 4 months to take effect. I'm heading into the fourth month myself, so cannot say whether it's had any effect on my follies or not. I'm not planning to take it much past 6 months, so that will be Sept for me.

And LOL to the golf .. much the same here, DP still presumes he'll be going off to watch all the footy matches he does at present even if we're lucky enough to have a baby. He's in for a bit of a shock (at least, I hope he is!).

Abney Wed 04-Jul-12 12:45:03

Hi Brownstag Ari just to join in I am also paying for all SO teatment myself and my DH I think would be more than happy to just have the 1 and because I earn more money and due to me being the driving force I don't want him to pay. I rather keep in out of all of the ins and outs. He just needs to do his bit on command which is of course free for him. smile. I think it is only in the movies whereby the men sometimes are desperate for a child.

Arianrhod Wed 04-Jul-12 13:01:19

I suspect you're right abney. DP's angle 2 years ago was "we'll just try naturally, no extras, if it happens it happens and if it doesn't it doesn't". Yeah, right - well that didn't work, did it?!

brownstag Wed 04-Jul-12 13:30:50

Ari, that was exactly what my DH said too! and Abney, I also keep him out of the ins and outs; to be honest he can't keep track (not surprising really) of what's going on. He doesn't have the same drive to search every nook and cranny of the internet for the most obscure bits of research as I do. In fact his understanding of the menstrual cycle is similar to my understanding of golf, I suppose: our respective eyes just glaze over when it comes up. But then he doesn't have that biological clock ticking very loudly in the background.

Arianrhod Thu 05-Jul-12 13:13:16

Well, just got my results through from Serum - I've tested positive for both chlamydia and ureaplasma sad Which means now the 25-day regime of anti-bs for me and DP, if he'll take them. If I can get a prescription for them! care Did you get your prescriptions sorted out, for you and for DH?

brownstag Thu 05-Jul-12 14:59:41

Well, I suppose that's good in a way, isn't it? At least it's some kind of answer. I don't know about you, but I feel I'm always looking for some hidden factor that makes me different from other people! Was it the ordinary chlamydia test or hidden? or didn't they say?
I asked my sister if she would be able to get me the prescriptions as she's a sexual health nurse practitioner, which means she can prescribe, but she said no. (As well as saying poppycock about these so-called hidden infections.)
I'm getting a bit worried they didn't receive my sample as they said it would take 3 days and I sent it on Monday.

Arianrhod Thu 05-Jul-12 16:19:36

It wasn't the "common" variant of chlamydia I've tested positive for, but one of the other strains. The reports they send you are pretty specific though, worth showing to your sister when you get yours. Did you send your sample through Royal Mail? If so it will take longer than 3 days - I think mine took 8 days, might have been 9. It's not the post this side that's the problem, it's the other side!!

brownstag Thu 05-Jul-12 16:42:46

Interesting. She did say that the official stance on these other infections (I think she was talking about ureaplasmas and mycoplasmas) was that they were of no clinical significance.
Yes, Royal Mail, and it cost the princely sum of £2. I didn't go for recorded. After spending hundreds on stimulating my ovaries I was suddenly afflicted by parsimony in the post office.

eurochick Thu 05-Jul-12 16:54:35

Arian, that is interesting. I guess we all have something that is triggering the increase in NK cells. Infections in some of us, possilbly precancerous cervical cells in me, autoimmune conditions in others and so on. I wonder if treating the cause will be more successful for us than treating the effect? I did find a study somewhere on some of these infections (not hidden C but the others) which indicated that they were found in around 30% of infertile women and 15% of fertile. Which suggests that they have some role to play in fertility, although it might not be black and white (in that those who have the infections have fertility problems).

CareBear1 Thu 05-Jul-12 17:36:28

Ari sorry to hear that, but hope treating it helps. I've got an appointment for DH on monday, the earliest I could get. The GP I saw seemed more concerned with the 25 days than anything else, she said it would normally only be prescribed for 1 or 2 weeks.

CareBear1 Thu 05-Jul-12 17:52:20

I'm utterly confused today. We had an appointment with an IVF clinic that is part of an NHS referral, and he basically said the whole reason we are not getting pg is down to my eggs. He said the fact that my amh is low, i have less than average antral follicle count for my age, and that i needed a lot of stimulation with the last ivf round point to a likely low number and therefore low quality of eggs. He also said FSH levels were meaningless. This almost exactly opposite to what Mr S told me last week. I was hoping to do the anti b's and give it a few natural cycles to see what effect they had. This doctor has scared me into thinking if I don't do IVF immediately it will never happen. He also said that while IVF normally he would give a 40% chance of success for me its just 25%. I really don't know what to do. Am sure i need to sleep on it, but just needed to vent somewhere. Any thoughts much appreciated. Why can't they all fricking agree its so frustrating.

eurochick Thu 05-Jul-12 18:06:56

That does sound frustrating Care. What was your AMH, etc? And how old are you? (If you want to share these details.)

CareBear1 Thu 05-Jul-12 18:16:20

My amh was 8 and I'm 34.

brownstag Thu 05-Jul-12 18:20:31

CareBear, that must be very confusing and upsetting. I think I'd be inclined to trust whoever gives you more confidence. It's stressful enough having to go through all this treatment without being made to feel more desperate. I looked at the Create website earlier, incidentally, and there really are some inspirational stories on there. It just shows that there are always more options, whatever someone's situation.

Arianrhod Fri 06-Jul-12 10:18:44

Sigh .. So dragged OH up to TDL for his tests and the two of us to have blood tests, and just been told that they only do these blood tests on Mon to Wed. I did ask when I rang to make the appt and was told we could come in for these tests any day. OH is now fuming that he's taken off a half-day from work and we have to come back another day. Going to be difficult to get him up here a second time sad

Care I'm no doctor but your AMH level looks just fine to me? Have you thought of getting a second opinion?

eurochick Fri 06-Jul-12 10:27:14

I agree with Arian,Care that really doesn't look particuarly low to me. I thought you had already tried IVF? (It's at times like this signatures would be really helpful on MN!)

Arian how frustrating.

brownstag Fri 06-Jul-12 11:56:39

Care, yes, when I looked up AMH levels I was confused because yours seemed okay. Are there two different scales?

CareBear1 Fri 06-Jul-12 12:27:24

Ari grr how annoying, what is TCM?

Thanks for the replies, this has sent me into a bit of a spin.

I think there are different scales - on this one 15 is satisfactory, cant recall what good and very good was, very low was less than 3 I think. Mr S said the AMH was meaningless and an old school test, whereas this guy actually said to me 'dont wait'.

Yes euro I did IVF last year and got 9 eggs and 6 embryos which were all normal. Didnt implant on fresh or frozen rounds. This guy said my egg quality is probably low and he wants much more than 9 eggs!

Sorry for me me post, am very confused and now very worried about what the best thing to do is.

CareBear1 Fri 06-Jul-12 12:28:32

Sorry ari that was meant to be what is TDL?

CareBear1 Fri 06-Jul-12 12:31:38

Ps started the anti b's yesterday - no stomach upset so far

eurochick Fri 06-Jul-12 12:38:39

care I had mine tested by Mr S last year (annoying that he now calls it an old skool test when I paid to have it done at his suggestion!) and it was 12 on the same scale, with above 15 being normal, so 12 fell into the low fertility category. Mr S dismissed it saying it was fine. I was 35 when I had the test.

9 eggs and 6 embryos sounds like a great result. I thought that getting loads and loads of eggs meant that you were likely to be getting poor quality eggs? I think my friend got 30 eggs (!) but "only" 6 embryos from that. If you are making embryos, and embryos that survive freezing and thawing at that, I am struggling to see how that leads him to conclude there is an egg quality issue. But of course, I am not an embryologist, so what do I know?

brownstag Fri 06-Jul-12 12:54:47

Sorry to change the subject temporarily, but while I remember it, with the antibiotics from the Athens test, wouldn't Mr S prescribe them if we asked him?

CareBear1 Fri 06-Jul-12 13:04:14

Possibly, he seems quite open to giving prescriptions, but I did discuss the Athens test with him and he dismissed the whole thing

So just temporarily back to amh etc, Euro you make wise points as always. Thats what I thought before seeing this guy. I'd be interested in gorgys view on amh vs immune - DH got v cross when I suggested seeing him too and thinks we should stick ti one thing at a time. Euro what was Mr S plan for you next?

missbrightside Fri 06-Jul-12 13:08:13

I hope you don't mind girls if I intrude your thread quickly to ask Carebear a question !

Care bear - I'm honestly not stalking you (!!!) but your name always catches my eye as I know you were thinking about going to the Agora. Can I be incredibly nosy and ask if that was where you were told about your egg quality ?

Reason I ask is that our first cycle with them has just resulted in a BFN .... ! I have very very similar statistics to you (age 34 - AMH 9 - Eggs collected 10 - Fertilised 6 - although none were suitable for freezing).

We do have a 'follow up' appointment arranged in 10 days or so. But obviously I'm too impatient to wait to speak with a consultant and am on a one woman mission to diagnose our failure myself .......... ! (I know, I know) I've made an appointment with Dr Gorgy in a month or so (it was immunes or the Maldives. Immunes won ..... !)

And thanks to here I'm now thinking of sending menstrual blood to Athens ..... !!! (I've never even been to Greece myself FFS !!!!!)

Hope you are otherwise well xxx

eurochick Fri 06-Jul-12 13:28:06

care I have no idea! I haven't actually seen him since around March, when he gave me a prescription for Pred and Clexane to take alongside IVF and wished me well. Of course, we postponed IVF (and we had decided not to take the CLexane anyway) and now I have had the abnormal smear while I am on my post-6 months Pred break, I am reluctant to take anything to suppress my immune system until that is sorted out.

We are booked in to see Gorgy soon to get more immune testing done (including the infection stuff) and taking a couple of months off ttc. In the autumn we'll review what to do next.

jaffajiffy Fri 06-Jul-12 14:55:16

Hello, super ov-ers. I'm joining you again! I was on SO Oct-Feb, fell pg on the 5th cycle, and miscarried at 10 weeks sad. Back on letrozole tomorrow. I had normal NK cells and then tested High while pg an then recently tested 'borderline' so will be starting Pred with a bfp. I see on here there are a few other tests some of you are taking. I'll have a long read and see what I think.

Latest hormone levels from me: fsh 10.7, amh 2.24 (up from 0.67!).

Here's hoping letrozole is cumulative from last time (as mr S claimed this morning).

Looking forward to catching up with you all.

brownstag Fri 06-Jul-12 19:45:56

Welcome back jaffajiffy. In what way does Mr S think letrozole is cumulative? With more/better follies?

CareBear1 Fri 06-Jul-12 23:26:34

Hi Brightside, I'm so sorry about your BFN. Its so heartbreaking isnt it. Its such a build up that for it not to happen is so devastating. I never heard back from the Agora and then had my referral changed to the esperance. That was my first visit. How did you find the Agora? Do you have more NHS rounds? Better luck next time, I hope. X x x

Jaffa Mr S said to me that letrozole was cumulative but not sure how

missbrightside Sat 07-Jul-12 08:13:31

Thanks Carebear. All the very best to you at the Esperance. DP and I still have very mixed feelings about the Agora (possibly heightened by the BFN). We have one more NHS go with them so will use that. We've decided to limit ourselves to 3 goes - and if we do have to be third time lucky then it will be credit card in hand to ARGC ..... (although really hoping it doesn't get to that !!!)

Take good care and best of luck for your next cycle.


duggs1976 Sat 07-Jul-12 08:20:54

hey Ladies... I've not been on here for a while so just skimming through. Ari so you tested positive for the same 2 infections as me?
DH and I have just finished our hardcore anti bitoics... we are now taking pro biotics on the advice of Zita West nurtitionalist so we get the good bacteria back. I also saw your link on 'just momies' site and can see the pattern.

I hope you are ok?

Is pebbles ok ?

Had a dream about us all last night. We were on a coach going somewhere.

Anyway... sorry not to name check ..there are a few new names on the thread I see.

I will pop to NK thread to say hi now.

Havingkittens Sat 07-Jul-12 13:03:48

Hello all, I've not been on here much recently either. Seem to have found myself posting on the NK thread too, rather than here. It's been a ridiculous week of mentalling for me as AF decided to keep me guessing for an extra 5 days. She's here now so I'm back to square one on my 5th SO cycle. Only 2 more left and then, who knows? Mr S seems to think that I have as much chance naturally as I do with IVF. We'll have to look into that more as and when we need to. In the meantime, OH will have another SA test. Something called a FISH test, which reading up about it sounds like something we should've had years ago! I really can't understand why the NHS didn't do this test after our 2 TS21 pregnancies. Maybe it's new.

I will also be starting Hydroxy on this cycle. Looking forward to coming off Pred. Although last time I took anti malaria pills I had to stop because they made me feel dreadful!

Buzzybee, are you around? How are you getting on with the Gonal F?

Pebbles is quiet. Hope all is ok?

buzzybee123 Sat 07-Jul-12 15:16:04

kittens i'm still around, I'm finding the Gonal F ok, felt a bit weird at first, I've had 2 scans now this cycle, usually I ov around cd12 so had scan on cd10 only 12mm, so had another on cd14 and the follie is only 14mm so i'm having some extra gonal f for 2 days and should ov cd17/18. He said he'd give me a stronger dose next time and something to thicken my lining. Mr B needs to give another SA and we might consider IUI soon

A friend of mine had a telephone consultation with Dr Fisch from the Sher Institute in the US where he told her that the intralipids were important. Shehata said I could have them if I wanted

Arianrhod Sat 07-Jul-12 18:21:29

Hi ladies -

care TDL is The Doctor's Laboratory, where Mr S gets most of his testing.

kittens interesting about the AF delay, does that mean you had a 15-day luteal phase? Do you think anything you're taking has lengthened your LP? Interesting you mentioning the FISH test; when I saw Mr S week before last he mentioned that test, but said he was still checking it out as it's a very new test and he wanted to see more data on it before he decided whether to use it or not. Seems he must have decided it's worth doing now, if he's sending your OH for the test? Pity I didn't know before OH went for his sperm tests yesterday otherwise we could have asked for a form for that too!

euro I meant to comment before; I had an abnormal smear test a few years back, they called me back for a repeat scan a couple of weeks later and that turned out to be clear. I was told at the time that sometimes they see abnormalities showing up on one test that are not present at a repeat one, they consider these red herrings. I had to have a test every year for 5 years after that, but never had another abnormal scan. I hope yours is something similar.

duggs Welcome back, I wondered how you were doing. Are you going to get retested now you've both finished your anti-bs? And your DH, is he going to get his DNA fragmentation checked again, if I remember right it was thought perhaps the bacterial infection may have caused his high fragmentation count, is that right? Btw I didn't post a link on the 'just mommies' site (don't actually know that one?) .. ? How are you doing now, are you still TTC as well as waiting for the adoption process to start?

jaffa Welcome back, and hope this round of SO gives a better outcome for you this time!

On the subject of Serum tests and prescriptions - I was very surprised, they've just sent me through a prescription for the anti-bs without asking for additional payment, so I'm very pleased! All I need to do know is find a pharmacy that will accept international prescriptions - oh, and tell DH about it ... !

I'm a bit concerned that you have to stop TTC (obviously) the cycle it takes for the anti-bs to clear the infections, wondering where that leaves me with taking Letrozole. If Letrozole is cumulative, then shouldn't I take it this next cycle anyway, even though we are not allowed to TTC? I guess so, just seems a bit weird.

Hope you ladies are all doing ok, /waves to everyone.

Arianrhod Sat 07-Jul-12 18:27:56

Ahhh duggs Just read your post on the pred thread, I understand the link now. I think I only posted it on here, not the pred thread, because I don't think anyone on there is looking at the hidden-C/bacteria testing.

Pebbles73 Sat 07-Jul-12 19:46:41

Hello all and thanks for asking after me Duggs and *Kittens. I have been in Spain since Monday with no wi-fi but just changed to a hotel for two nights with free wi-fi so trying to catch up! Interesting reading about the results people are having from the tests at Serum. Seems everybody who has tested has befn positive for something. Think I will do them but not just yet with paying for hols.

Jaffa have been wondering how you were getting on, so you are now on pred as well. Hope it is the answer for you. smile

I am back on super ov and take last letrezole tomorrow, seeing Dr Gafar at NLC as Mr S off. Has anyone else seen him before?
I had a wtf cycle this month, had cramping on and off for about five days and was around five it six days late. Typically af started on the plane!

How are you getting in Euro, are you still doing ivf?

Havingkittens Sat 07-Jul-12 21:17:31

Ditto pebbles, 5 days late and cramping on CD25 (which I was supposed to be due) then disappeared for 3 days then came back for a day and vanished again. Very confusing!

Yes, ari, I did indeed have a 15 day luteal phase. The only difference was that I added Vit B12 to my list after reading it lengthened LP but I wasn't expecting it to work on the first cycle, especially not a whole 5 days!

jaffajiffy Sat 07-Jul-12 21:55:45

Hi pebbles I've been keeping up with your news a bit via our mutual friend. Nice to hear from you smile. I've seen mr gafar at nlc but only to confirm the miscarriage again before my erpc. His room is a lot bigger and swisher and his scan machine was a lot clearer. He was very nice and sensitive in the circumstances!

duggs1976 Sun 08-Jul-12 09:00:48

hey guys.. pebbles yes we saw dr Gafar for IUI in Feb.. he was very nice indeed and after my successful (hhaa) IVF attempt at London Womens Clinic he saw me in reception at NLC waiting for my second round of intrallipids. He is a lovely man as far as I know.

Ari going for retesting. We will start TTC again next month as is so hard doing nothing. As for carrying on I think the jury is out on that one. For us because DH sperm fragmentation was so high this can be a very likely cause of mc so we decided to wait out one cycle, but is a personal preference.

Hope all ok. Kittens.. interesting that Dr S thinks you have as good a chance naturally as you do with IVF... even though you haven't got a BFP for ages. What do you do... keep going and going.. ummm... is such a minefield.

brownstag Sun 08-Jul-12 11:29:28

HavingKittens, do you mean B12, not B6? I did the B6 thing for a while but it didn't do much; unless the effect is delayed, as my LP is longer nowadays, but I've put that down to medicated cycles.

brownstag Sun 08-Jul-12 11:30:59

B6, not B12, I meant, sorry.

Havingkittens Sun 08-Jul-12 12:09:56

Oh, maybe it was B6 that I read about. I bought Vit B Complex anyway, which contains both. Being a vegetarian it's probably a bood idea to take it anyway. I doubt it was that that made the difference as I only just started with it this cycle.

Obviously the Gonal F and Tamoxifen were also things that were different this cycle but my Googling informed me that, if anything, they shorten your cycle rather than lengthen it. Maybe it was just down to stress and being super emotional. I really don't know! A happy medium would be nice next time, a 28 day cycle perhaps. Or no AF at all ideally.

brownstag Sun 08-Jul-12 12:46:45

No AF ideally indeed. There seem a lot of vegetarians amongst us; I'm vegan and have been so for over 20 years; did you say you were vegetarian ari? Do you all take flax oil instead of the fish omega-3s? I used to take the algal oil but it's quite expensive, although supposedly more efficient.
I seem to read conflicting reports of fertility in vegetarians; some saying that lower protein intake is associated with reduced ovulation, some saying that higher intake of plant lignans is associated with better ovulation rates. I have a 44-year-old single raw vegan friend who is convinced her fertility is being protected by her lifesyle and that if and when she meets the right man she will be able to conceive easily. Can't say I share her optimism! In fact I feel like a one-woman campaign to urge everyone I know in their twenties to get on with it, if they think they'll ever want kids! Although when my severe endometriosis was diagnosed when I was 23, my gynaecologist said pretty much the same thing to me, but I didn't listen.
I doubt whether your B complex has very large quantities of B6 in it, but I may be wrong. I think I was taking 200mg a day at one point, right on the edge of potential nerve damage!

Havingkittens Sun 08-Jul-12 13:49:27

It's the Mega B-100 one from H&B and has 100mg of B6 in it.

brownstag Sun 08-Jul-12 14:51:02

Yes, that is quite a lot. The Bs are meant to work better synergistically, so that's probably a good one to take.

CareBear1 Mon 09-Jul-12 10:25:03

Hi all, Ari that's great news about the prescription. I got GP to prescribe DH the anti-b's ok in the end. Good tip for anyone else doing the serum tests, and then going to the GP for prescription approach: male GP asked significantly less questions!!

I started taking the anti-b's last Thurs night, and to limit the tmi lets just say that a good proportion of everything leaving my lower half since has been Hot, Hot, Hot! blush Ouch! Duggs did you get any stinging? Could be a side effect, but have convinced myself its the nasties on their way out. grin

eurochick Mon 09-Jul-12 10:45:13

Pebbles I cancelled the IVF after downregging. I had my downregging scan last Monday. I had every side effect in the book by that point, including full on Black Dog depression, and felt absolutely dreadful. When they told me at the scan that everything looked good but I couldn't start the stimms until Saturday (to suit their schedule rather than for any clinical reason) I had a bit of a meltdown in the waiting room as I couldn't face feeling that for another week. I was in proper physical and mental pain and Mr euro was finding it difficult to watch me suffer like that. So we decided to stop. Then they came back to us and said I could start the stimms on Wednesday instead. But by that point we had both felt relief at the decision to stop, so we decided to stick with it.

I am now trying to figure out wtf is going on with my cycle.

We have decided to take the summer off from actively ttc, see Gorgy for the additional immunolgy tests, have our third IUI in the package of three we bought some time in the autumn and then consider mild or natural IVF (with absolutely no downregging) later in the year.

What are you up to now?

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 11:44:55

care Thanks - did you just take in the prescription that Serum sent you to your GP? Did they not question it at all? I'm faced with trying to somehow squeeze in a GP appt this week before we fly on Friday on the hope that they will write me a prescription, or else paying for it privately - which is going to cost me about £100 sad Problem is if my GP doesn't agree, then it will be another 2.5 weeks before I can get them privately, once we get back. I'm not sure I want the risk - but I don't want to spend £££ on it either! Still haven't told DP about it either, he's been quite grumpy the past few days and didn't feel it was the right time to bring this up since he didn't know I'd sent away for the tests in the first place.

euro So sorry to hear that downregging made you feel so awful. I've heard very good things about the mild/natural IVFs, maybe that would be better for your body?

Having another dilemma here too ... do I not take my Letrozole for this next upcoming cycle, since we will be on 'no unprotected sex' regime due to the infection-clearing anti-bs .. or do I take them anyway, if they are supposed to have an accumulative effect?

CareBear1 Mon 09-Jul-12 12:15:15

Ari Yes I took in the email I had from Serum with the regime on and said 'I'd like a prescription for this' and then had the test results also. The male Gp we saw for DH's asked very few questions, the one last week asked more. They both made noises about 'possible false positives' and 'might not be factor' etc etc, but they both (and the consultant we saw at an ivf clinic last week) said they are standard doses of anti-b's and 'it can't do any harm'. The GP from last week wouldn't prescribe for DH without him present though, don't know if that's standard or not. Have you tried going direct to a pharmacy with the international prescription? I would personally continue with the letrozole purely because its cheap and I've had no ill effects from it and I'd want the cumulative effect if there is one.

Euro with the mild ivf do I assume they don't do downregging? I only ask as lots of places do protocols without the downregging stage which may suit you better?

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 12:20:02

Yes care, agate from FF advised the best pharmacy to go to that accepts international prescriptions, and they've quoted around £100 for the whole prescription sad

Havingkittens Mon 09-Jul-12 12:40:04

Just booked for OH to have his Sperm FISH test. The price made me almost fall over! £645! Gulp.

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 12:52:54

Yikes!!! Do you know what that test involves, kittens? What they're looking for?

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 12:53:38

Well we've found out that because TDL messed up with our blood tests on Friday, and because we cannot get them done at NLC, we're not going to be able to get our blood tests done for another 3 weeks since we're away. I'm really, really cross ... what a waste of time sad

CareBear1 Mon 09-Jul-12 13:12:20

Which blood tests are they Ari? Are they standard or special ones? Worth a ring round of other local clinics to see if they can fit you in?

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 13:17:52

LAD, karyotyping and DQa care ... and Mr S has only given me forms for TDL unfortunately sad

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 13:21:49

Ok I'm a bit confused. I just went to have a quick look at that FISH test and found on the Doctor's Lab site this description in the normal Sperm Aneuploidy test:

Measuring sperm aneuploidy

This test uses fluorescent in situ hybridisation (FISH) to label individual chromosomes with specific probes.

So isn't this what we're currently being tested for anyway, since the sample OH just had to do at TDL was for the sperm aneuploidy test as well as DNA fragmentation? But Mr S was saying this FISH test (tested for in Spanish lab) is a new test?!

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 13:25:34

Maybe the Spanish lab just has a better method of testing it, perhaps it's that.

Havingkittens Mon 09-Jul-12 13:34:05

No idea confused! He advised us against the DNA Fragmentation test and suggested this instead. Not entirely sure what the difference is. Like you say, probably a different method. (a more expensive one!)

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 14:06:32

He did? He didn't advise us against having the DNA Fragmentation test ... ?! How bizarre ... maybe he thinks this version of the test is better. Like I say, he wasn't sure about it the last time I saw him 2 weeks ago, obviously he's now seen enough data on it that he's convinced. Wish there was some consistency to this all!

Arianrhod Mon 09-Jul-12 14:53:11

care I meant to ask, are you taking probiotics and Omeprazole with your anti-bs? I read they're suggested to help ameliorate some of the nasty effects the anti-bs have on your digestive system?

brownstag Mon 09-Jul-12 15:36:22

I still haven't heard anything from Serum, so don't know if they've got my sample yet. I suppose it's only a week now.

But I did have my follicle scan today (at another place in Harley Street as Mr S is away) and was very pleased with 5 follicles in total! But only 2 or 3 will definitely come out as the other 2 were too small.

What I do find odd is the timing of the injections. Last month, on day 10, I had a single follicle measuring 15.5cm. I was told to do the injection the next night.

This time I have three follicles measuring 18.3, 17.7 and 16 on day 11. And I still have to have the injection tomorrow. I'm a bit worried that the big one might pop out by itself before then!

Havingkittens Mon 09-Jul-12 17:28:06

Yes, ari, it's odd itsn't it? More inconsistencies! He was quite dismissive of the DNA Fragmentation test. Maybe he thought that the FISH test was more relevant to us, having had 2 Down Syndrome pregnancies in addition to the 4 miscarriages. There is certainly cause for concern as far as Chromosome problems go. The test itself costs £400 but they add a £22 handling fee and then Mr S's consultation fee on top of that. Also, the FISH test doesn't include the usual SA for Morphology, Motility etc which we were also advised to have re-tested. So that's an extra £140 on top. Then we have to decide whether, on top of the £130 SO Meds and £150 scan we should have IUI at £700 odd before our 6 cycles of SO are up. Not quite sure how we're supposed to afford IVF if we need it after that confused.

I think I need a lie down!

brownstag, that's confusing isn't it? I was told that the follicles mature 1-2mm per day and that they should be ready to release at 20mm so the more recent instructions make more sense to me than you last cycle's procedure. My last scan there were 2 follicles at 15mm and I was told to inject 2 days later.

buzzybee123 Mon 09-Jul-12 20:12:12

kittens and brownstag can I ask what dose you guys are on ?? I'm still only producing 1 follie on .75 of gonal f, he's upping the dose next month and giving me Progynova.

Havingkittens Mon 09-Jul-12 22:41:07

I'm on 75 Gonal F and Tamoxifen. Produced 2 follies last month despite Mr S's predictions after reading my grim blood results. At which point he'd started to suggest a higher dose, but decided not to after the scan.

I've been taking Progynova for a few months now. Since the beginning of SO - I'm starting my 5th cycle now.

brownstag Tue 10-Jul-12 08:01:31

Buzzybee, this cycle I took 7.5mg of letrozole. Last month I took 5mg, and only produced one follicle, so he upped it, but I'm quite staggered with the 5 follicles. I was fully expecting one again and prepared to give up the superovulation treatment since I normally ovulate by myself.
Do you normally ovulate by yourself; also to Kittens?

CareBear1 Tue 10-Jul-12 11:40:53

Ari, had really bad stomach pains all day yesterday. Tried probiotics last night and Om today, both help quite a bit. Feel pretty rotten though.

Pebbles73 Tue 10-Jul-12 14:15:24

Brownstag can I ask where you had your follicle scan in Harley street? Also were they ok giving you the prescription for the ovitrelle injection? I booked to see Mr Gafar on Thursday at cd10 but worried will be to early as didn't ov naturally this month until cd21, does the letrezole make you ov earlier does anyone know? Think will email Louise to see what she advises.

eurochick Tue 10-Jul-12 14:46:09

Pebbles I oved later than usual on 2.5mg (day 20 against days 14-16 naturally), but earlier (day 12/13) on 5mg. So it all depends if the dose is right for you I would say.

Pebbles73 Tue 10-Jul-12 14:55:10

Thanks Euro, Louise replied saying that you can ov earlier on letrezole and better I have the scan to early than to late. Will just have to hope I don't have to go back for another one as dontceantvto pay for two!

Havingkittens Tue 10-Jul-12 15:01:49

brownstag, according the the OPKs I was ovulating myself. I suspect not every cycle though. I didn't respond fantastically to Letrozole. Never more than one follicle. Hence the switch to Gonal F & Tamoxifen.

Pebbles I had my scan at this place they work with Mr S so you pay for it with The Miscarriage Clinic and they send the data straight to Mr S who then phones you with his instructions. I found that CD10 was too early for me and I ended up having to pay for another scan. I tend to ovulate around CD15/16 so I'm having my scans at CD12 or 13. Louise just recommends "Making Love" during the few days before just in case you end up ovulating earlier than expected.

I had a good old chat with Louise yesterday. She's very good at rationalising things. I have decided to hold off on the super expensive testing for now and hold off on the SA until next cycle as she said not to worry about having it if the last one was within 6 months, which is was, but to have it re-tested after 6 months. So, I'm going to spend the next month tipping Co-Enzyme Q10, Zinc & Selenium down my OH's throat and then we can see if it's made any difference next month.

Havingkittens Tue 10-Jul-12 15:02:37

Sorry, a working link might be more helpful! I saw Mr Mahfouz.

brownstag Tue 10-Jul-12 15:56:08

Pebbles, I also saw Mr Mahfouz at GAMES, but I already had the prescription for the Ovitrelle from the month before. Mr Mahfouz's fax wasn't working so I texted Louise my results and she phoned me back. She is going to be getting me prescriptions for next month's drugs, I assume in the post.
On Clomid and letrozole I ovulated earlier than I would normally; around day 13 or 14. My natural cycles can be anything from day 16 to day 26, usually on the later side.
Kittens, my husband has started taking a similar concoction (all bought by me of course). Also L-arginine. But I think it takes a while to affect the sperm, several months. He takes statins, which aren't good for sperm, although his sperm test last year was normal.

Pebbles73 Tue 10-Jul-12 15:58:57

Thanks Kittens that's great, did you just speak to them directly and ask for results to be faxed to Mr S? Just trying to work out the logistics of it all and if London will be nearer. Problem is I live in Hertfordshire and work in Gerrards Cross meaning I will have to drive to work as can't get train to work and then get train into London and back...

brownstag Tue 10-Jul-12 16:09:52

Cheryl gave me their number and I rang them and explained I was one of Mr S's patients. A doctor Vera Medic scanned me. Then he (or his secretary or nurse, Inga, who was away when I was there) then usually faxes the results to Mr S/Louise. Mr Mahfouz obviously does this all the time; they didn't ask me for any money either. I assume I'll pay Mr S later.

Havingkittens Tue 10-Jul-12 16:30:41

Just started typing a reply and then reaslised that brownstag had written everything I was saying anyway!

Or you can email Inga at

buzzybee123 Tue 10-Jul-12 17:00:05

brownstag I usually ovulate myself, I'm hoping the 150mgs does the trick otherwise I might stop the SO. I used to ov around cd14-17 and then this year it changed to cd12, now i'm on cd19, hoping I will tomorrow

kittens mr s told us to get mr b's SA done 6 weeks after the last one hmm, he said if its no good and I produce 2 follies then we should consider iui. I've been giving mr b l'arginine and l'caratine aswell as co enzyme and macca, a friend gave them to her DH and it helped improve his results

Havingkittens Tue 10-Jul-12 17:04:48

What were his results like the first time? My OH had 5% morphology which we thought was going to be bad news but Mr S seems to think that although it's just within the acceptable range, it's ok. The jury's out on whether we should have IUI.

buzzybee123 Tue 10-Jul-12 17:49:18

mr b's were 2% and 14% motility, he wasn't well when he did it, ironically we fell the first month trying last year and now it won't happen at all. How did you find the Progynova ??

Pebbles73 Tue 10-Jul-12 20:25:54

Thank you ladies for all the info and help. Louise is not around this week to sort out the scan results so asked me to stick with appointment with Mr Gafar.

Euro I meant to say earlier so sorry the ivf didn't work out for you. You must have felt awful with all those side effects. Hopefully the ivf version with no down regging will be better for you.

Havingkittens Tue 10-Jul-12 21:53:59

I don't think I had any problems with the Progynova. Made my skin look better whilst I'm on it but now I have loads of lovely spots since my AF showed up. All of my previous pregnancies were achieved within 1-3 cycles of trying. Mostly first or second actually. No BFP now for over 18 months sad

brownstag Wed 11-Jul-12 08:03:06

Is anyone on here a fertility charter/pant-snot checker?
I feel really hopeless about this cycle on 7.5mg of letrozole because my fertile mucous is virtually nil, not quite as bad as on Clomid but pretty bad. Ironically on the 5mg it was plentiful, but the egg singular.
I'll be ovulating tonight with possibly 3 eggs but I don't feel the sperm have a chance of reaching them.
Anyone else had this problem? I'm in two minds as to its significance; although it forms an important part of traditional fertility awareness, no gynaecologist has ever asked me about it. My NHS doctor said there's no evidence it makes any difference, but I can't help feeling it does. Surely every little component of the whole cycle is important, else why would there be so much infertility?

Havingkittens Wed 11-Jul-12 09:21:29

I've not had anything resembling egg white for years and have still conceived several times despite the fact. Not doing so well now but I don't think it's down to that particular issue. I have even mentioned it to Mr S a few times and he's not been particularly concerned. You can try something like Pre-seed or Conceive Plus if it does worry you. Other things to try are Evening Primrose Oil (only up until ovulation, not after), robitussin cough linctus prior to ovulation, drinking grapefruit juice prior to ovulation. All supposed to increase EWCM.

I don't do charting for a few reasons. The first being that I wake up at such various and random times, whether it be because the cat's woken me up or because i have a very early job on that day, or no job. It's hard to get any consistency. Also, it's just another way to get further obsessed and stressed about TTC. I feel that having follicle tracking scans gives a pretty comprehensive idea of what's going on ovulation wise. Mind you, the only time I regret not temping is when I read people's comments on other's cycles, or more specifically their likelihood of BFP based on their temperatures.

brownstag Wed 11-Jul-12 09:58:19

Thanks Kittens; it's good to know you can conceive without it. I am using all the things you mention except for grapefruit juice; I'd never heard of that. I agree that on medicated cycles there's not much point in charting, but on unmedicated cycles I just like to know whether I've ovulated and how long my LP is. I have been charting this cycle just out of interest, to see how the chart differs with meds/more eggs, and also I was a bit worried my body would ovulate before the shot kicked in.
And yes, obsessive, but once you've got it down to a fine art it is much easier and therefore less so.

brownstag Wed 11-Jul-12 13:54:21

Just bought my grapefruit juice; apparently it interacts with some other drugs I'm on, and increases their concentration in the blood, but I'll give it a go just for one day!

Arianrhod Wed 11-Jul-12 15:32:31

I think I'd try anything except grapefruit juice, I just can't stomach the taste sad

Still wondering whether or not to take the letrozole even though this is now a non-TTC cycle due to the anti-bs; I asked Louise and she said not to take it, purely from the angle of not taking medication if you don't need it, which is understandable. I asked about the cumulative effect and Louise said not really with letrozole (gonal-f may be another case), but didn't Mr S tell someone it was? Obviously Louise knows what she's talking about, I trust her! But still wondering ...

Arianrhod Wed 11-Jul-12 16:00:19

Here's a completely insignificant question for you all ... Mr S has advised me to start on gonal-f with my next-but-one cycle (after I come back from Spain, in other words, as I can't get a scan in Spain - which is just as well since I'm not TTC this cycle now) but he's said to take letrozole as well. I'm a bit confused, doesn't gonal-f do the same thing as letrozole, ie stimulate the ovaries, only more powerfully? Why then would I need to take both drugs? kittens You're doing gonal-f and tamoxifen together, is that right? Don't they both do the same thing? Did he mention to you why both?

Havingkittens Wed 11-Jul-12 16:25:51

I took a month off for my hysteroscopy and they told me not to take anything. Now I am on Tamoxifen & Gonal F. Not sure why but there must be a good reason, I suppose. If I hadn't responded last cycle he was going to take me off Tamoxifen and up my Gonal F dose but I had 2 follies so I'm sticking to the same regime.

Only problem with taking a month off is that if you are scatty, like me, you can forget stuff. I went to pick up my Progynova yesterday and the lady said "so, you take this 3 times a day", which was when I realised that I had only been taking one a day last cycle. Mind you, my period was relatively heavy/normal and my lining thickness was fine when I had my scan so I'm not worried that I scuppered my chances of a BFP by making that mistake.

Is anyone on here (sue are you still on this thread?) taking Hydroxy without Pred? I am now doing that and am both excited and nervous. I'm excited to be off Pred after over a year but also quite nervous about not having the pred safety blanket if I get a BFP. Maybe he will just put me back on in when/if I get a BFP. I am really curious to see whether being off the Pred will have any effect on my chances of conceiving.

Pebbles73 Wed 11-Jul-12 17:58:08

Ari as I am sure you already know gonal f is generally given for stimming in ivf so is a pretty powerful drug. Sorry but not sure why you take both, maybe they work well together?!

I understood it that it is not the drug that is cumulative but just the more cycles of super ov you do the higher your chances of it working become. I could well be wrong though!

Have my scan at 10:45 tomorrow, desperately hoping it is not going to be to early!

brownstag Wed 11-Jul-12 18:37:06

Probably a stupid question, Ari, but you don't think Mr S meant take the letrozole on your month off, then start the Gonal-F the next cycle? I don't know about you, but I often find when I'm talking to Mr S that I've misunderstood something that I need to clarify with Louise later, however well I've prepared for what we're going to discuss. It all goes so quickly. Two months ago when I started the letrozole, we got to the end of the consultation and I said 'How do I give myself the injection?' Neither he nor Louise realised I didn't know how to do it, and there obviously wasn't time to show me as he told me to look it up on YouTube!

Abney Wed 11-Jul-12 19:29:05

Hi Ari I took Gonal F for the first time last month as well as letrozole. Produced 2 good size follies. My big fat AF showed up yesterday but I can tell you I have a repeat prescription for both Gonal F and Letrozole so you do take both. Not sure why. When I spoke to Louise she wanted to make sure that I had a prescription for both of them.

Arianrhod Wed 11-Jul-12 20:04:26

Thanks ladies - yes, Mr S gave me two prescriptions when Imsaw him, one for this cycle that I'd be unmonitored and one for the next. And the letter that he always emails through after the appt confirms he wants me to take both next cycle. I just wondered why.

As for the injection - Mr S didn't ask me if I knew how to do it, in the end I did just as you did and looked it up on YouTube! Do you do the gonal-f injections in the same way, ladies that do gonal-f? (sounds like there should be a club!)

kittens I'm only taking hydroxy, albeit Mr S-unapproved, I'll take it if I should ever get a proper BFP. It does worry me quite a bit that my NK cells are running rampant, but then I hope that treating the hidden C and urea plasma may calm them down a bit? Who knows, I can hope.

pebbles huge luck for your scan tomorrow!!

Havingkittens Wed 11-Jul-12 22:06:24

Well, ari, the hydroxy is supposed to suppress your immune system too, so I guess it serves the same purpose.

The Gonal F is really easy. You just have to screw the needle on, tap the pen to make sure there are no large bubbles (this will be explained in more detail in the leaflet that comes inside the pack), then twist the dose to 75mg and administer in the same way you would the Ovitrelle. Once you done it it goes back to 0 so you just twist it back to 75mg again with a fresh needle the next time.

Best of luck for tomorrow pebbles.

Sorry AF got you abney, always such a blow sad.

Arianrhod Wed 11-Jul-12 22:09:24

kittens Thanks for the instructions, that sounds exactly the same as the Ovitrelle then. Btw the hydroxy doesn't suppress your immune system - it's an immunoregulator, rather than an immunosuppressant. Which is why I worry, a bit!

brownstag Thu 12-Jul-12 07:59:40

How long after their receiving your sample did you get the results from Serum, Ari/anyone else who has had it done? They confirmed receipt of mine yesterday and I coughed up immediately, very begrudgingly as it came the same day as my follicle scan invoice.

Arianrhod Thu 12-Jul-12 08:50:16

Within a couple of days brownstag, it doesn't take long. Know what you mean about the price, I just paid another £116 for the anti-bs sad

brownstag Thu 12-Jul-12 09:24:30

Blimey! Is that just yours or for both of you?

Arianrhod Thu 12-Jul-12 10:31:22

That's for both of us. But still ... £££ sad

Pebbles73 Thu 12-Jul-12 14:12:05

Sorry about your af Abney, what a bummer. sad

Well not the best of news at my scan, was a bit dissapointed as only two large follies as opposed to three(I know I am greedy!!) this month. One was 17mm and one around 16mm and my lining was at 7mm. I always worry this is a bit borderline for cd10, wondered what you ladies think?
My main worry is that Mr Gafar (he was very nice incidentally) found some fluid that shouldn't be there. His worry was what was causing it to be there and he thinks it might be scar tissue from the miscarriage back in October. He said I should think about having a hysteroscopy but I have already had two and don't want another one! He said Icould wait another cycle so will see what Mr S thinks When I was having ivf they found this fluid also and nearly abondoned the cycle but when I went back it had gone. I assume that scar tissue can contribut to not getting pregnant? Not having a lunch break today so will have to google when I get home. Why is nothing simple and you are constantly faced with another hurdle to overcome!! angry

Sorry about the me, me , me post and hope everybody is ok.

brownstag Thu 12-Jul-12 17:05:07

My lining was also 7mm twice (well 7 on day 10 and 7.23 on day 11), and each time I was told my lining was 'nice'. How old are you Pebbles?, if you don't mind me asking. I'm 41 and have always worried about my light periods since having DS, so I was pleased with 'nice'. I am also ovulating 3 eggs today, and I can confirm that 2 from one ovary is bloomin' painful! But like you, I shall be disappointed with fewer from now on!

Pebbles73 Thu 12-Jul-12 17:53:35

Course I don't mind Brownstag I am 39 in September and never thought I would get to this age without having children. We have been ttc for a long time but as I was quite young when I started didn't worry too much. Silly me!!

Thanks for reassuring me re the lining and good luck this month. smile

Arianrhod Fri 13-Jul-12 08:32:04

My lining was 7.3mm this last scan and Mr S pronounced that 'fine' - I actually queried it, I said isn't it supposed to be over 8mm and he said no, we look for between 7mm and 8mm. So I guess I have to believe him smile

And pebbles 2 follies is good (I know, I know, I wanted three too smile ), remember that's doubled your chances to conceive and that's got to be good! You have had 2 hysteroscopies already, you say? Did they find anything, or was it just investigative? I may well be going that route, if my med ins approves it, so I'm curious to hear about them!

I'm almost certain I didn't ovulate this past cycle, no ov pains as I mentioned and 13DPO today with not a hint of anything, not even AF, which is a bit odd. Still I'm sure the witch will arrive, although I do wonder, do you still get a 'normal' AF on an anovulatory cycle? And does anyone know, if you only have one working ovary (as appears to be the case with me) I presume you don't ovulate from that one side every month, is that right? Isn't it supposed to be alternate sides? Although I do always get ov pains from my left side, every month (except this one of course), so I am a bit confused. I'm easily confused, me! smile

Well best of luck for your follies pebbles and brownstag, and anyone else that's waiting and hoping! I'm onto the anti-bs in a couple of days (OH wants to wait till we're 'settled in' on holiday) so that's me completely out of the running for the next month.

brownstag Fri 13-Jul-12 10:38:42

Thanks Ari; if one ovary isn't working the other one will take over I believe. Of course that doesn't mean you'll always ovulate. My right ovary is covered by an enormous endometrioma and years ago, I used to ovulate from it fairly frequently, and it was always painful. Lately I haven't ovulated from it at all, and I'm always aware of the left one doing its job (at two of my pregnancy scans they commented on the corpus luteum being on the left). Until 7.5mg of letrozole, that is, where I produced one follie in the right (the biggest) and 4 in the left. I think if you have an anovulatory cycle your period is quite light, presumably because there's been no progesterone to thicken the lining.

Yesterday I nearly went to A and E with the pain of my left ovary, 15 hours after ovulation supposedly. It felt like it was going to explode, for about an hour. I was crippled! But fortunately it passed. Anyone else had this?

I'm wondering whether I could have a dose in between 5mg and 7.5 of the letrozole. 5mg only produced one follicle, but with plentiful cervical mucous. 7.5mg produced 5 follies but was very drying, and it got worse towards ovulation, not better. Not to mention the exploding ovaries.

... I'm itching for my Athens results; really hoping they come before the weekend ...

Good luck everyone!

Pebbles73 Sun 15-Jul-12 13:46:02

That sounds horrible Brownstag, poor you. Hope it's your month.

I had the ovitrelle yesterday and had lots of little cramps in my right ovary today. Embarrassed to admit what an idiot I am but have realised I should have been taking two letrezole a day! ! blushI only took one at 2.5mg so explains why there were only two large follicles! Thought it was strange because of the pcos I akways over stimulate if anything. I guess I just have to think two was better than one for this month

Have been googling a bit about scar tissue and it generally just comes up with ashermans syndrome. My miscarriage was natural though, never had a d&c or erpc. Can't remember but was it you Kittens who thought you might have ashermans before you had a hysteroscopy? Am really worried about this scar tissue, has anyone else had this?

Ari they didn't find anything with either hysteroscopy, not even my pcos can you believe?! I had two because after the first one they said nothing wrong and you will get pregnant so tried for a bit then took a break. We then moved areas so when I went back to the new doctors made me have another one as was a couple of years later.

brownstag Sun 15-Jul-12 14:49:24

Pebbles, on one cycle of letrozole a few months ago I only took one day's tablet and then abandoned the cycle. I ovulated on day 12, the earliest I've ever ovulated (sometimes up to CD26), and there's part of me that thinks with letrozole 'less is more'. Obviously I didn't have a scan so don't know how many follicles there were but I feel it had a powerful effect with only one tablet. And really, even though I know I am greedy wanting 3 every cycle, 2 follicles is the number they're aiming for, so you had a perfect cycle really. Fingers crossed it turns out to be even more perfect!

CaveMum Sun 15-Jul-12 19:54:54

Greetings ladies, may I pop on and ask you a few questions?

After 2 years of TTC, a PCOS diagnosis and 5 failed cycles of Clomid, ive just been referred for, what my NHS authority, call Ovulation Induction. It may be known by a different name elsewhere (thanks for that NHS!) but from the literature I have it is daily FSH injections coupled with fanjo cam.

I am currently on the waiting list (no idea how long the wait will be) so wanted to see how others have got on with the treatment. I've been told I'm at a higher risk of over stimulating because I am the "skinny PCOS" type. Is this a common experience?

How have people coped with the injections? I'm not a fan at the best of times!

Finally, we've been told that there is counselling available for those that want it. I'll admit that I haven't coped terribly well since my PCOS diagnosis last year, regular sob fests and very dark moods. Has anyone taken up the offer of counselling?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

buzzybee123 Mon 16-Jul-12 18:38:40

pebbles I was first scanned by Mr Shehata's colleague who was concerned about my lining and the scarring from 2 x ERPC and 1 x perforated uterus, he suggested a hysteroscopy to tidy up the scars, but when I saw Mr Shehata the next month he and his colleague decided that I didn't really need it as the scar supposedly looked less bright on the scan hmm so they were happy that it would not affect my lining, maybe see what happens next month with Mr Shehata,

I'm hoping for two foliies this cycle as I'm on 150mgs of gonal f hmm

cavemum I have counselling through work (nhs) and find it really helpful to talk to someone who gives you their full attention, doesn't judge what you say and validates your feelings about it all, its worth a try and if its not for you then you don't have to go back, can't advise on the ovulation induction sorry but I don't mind the gonal f injections, the needle is so thin and as long as you follow the instructions and don't rush its ok.

Pebbles73 Mon 16-Jul-12 19:46:03

Thanks Buzzybee that's really reassuring to hear and yes think I will do another super ov cycle next month and see if it's still there at scan and see what Mr S thinks.

Hi Cavemum sorry for what you are going through. I also have skinny pcos but only mildly. I have had ivf and over stimulated a couple of times and got many eggs. As Buzzybee says the gonal f injections are ok as the needle is very thin.
I don't know how long you have to do thd injections for but you should hopefully be fine and not over stimulate with regular monitoring scans.

Have you been given anything for your pcos? After I saw a private doctor I was out on metformin and managed to get my nhs doctor to convert it to nhs prescription. If you are not on it might be worth asking your doctor as it improves egg quality.

I am currently doing super ovulation like everyone on here and we take letrezole day 2-6 of the cycle to stimulate more follicles. I haven't over stimulated on this.

I wish you lots of luck with your treatment.

jaffajiffy Mon 16-Jul-12 20:37:13

Hi, all. I've just had my first ovary scan of the first super ov cycle (note it's my second 'go' on super ov after a miscarriage earlier this year). I'm on 7.5 of Letrozole (no messin'), on CD11, and there was only one follicle measuring 15mm. So not great. pebbles, I've just read your results, and they look really good considering you'd have a couple of days for them to grow a bit more as well. My uterine lining was 8mm, which he said was good, like ari said, but I'm sure my first ever scan (last time round) he put me on Progynova when a scan showed 9mm. He says that we'll stick to the same treatment for now, but if the next scan doesn't have two or more good sized follicles, I should start gonal-f injections. So, who can tell me about those? They sound doable, but what effect do they have on one's body? Ideally I'd like someone to tell me I'll lose a stone - ? No?

So it's 'intercourse' tomorrow night and trigger shot, then more shagging on Thursday night. Ho hum.

cavemum I'm sorry but I don't know much about the medication you've been recommended - hence my queries! Sounds like pebbles has got it covered though.

brownstag that sounds like some serious ovulation! We'll be expecting triplets, then? I hope the pain has died down, you poor thing. And I'll be interested in your Serum results. I haven't decided if they'd be good for me to try given my history - are they for conception itself or avoiding miscarriage? Sorry I really should go off and read up on it. Just easing myself back into this whole thing and trying not to stress or let it take over my life.


Pebbles73 Mon 16-Jul-12 21:40:17

Hey Jaffa sorry you only got one follie I can imagine you are disappointed but remember it only takes one!
Re the gonal f I have only had it for ivf so taking it for over a week sodon't think you can compare. I was very bloated but as I said earlier I did over stimulate so sure if you only have to take for certain ammount if days you will be fine.
Can I ask why you have been told to start intercourse (great word, I hit try from Dr G which is much better!) same day as trigger shot? I was told to do injection Saturday morning and try from Sunday. Who would hCve thought we would be discussing when we ate going to have a shag with co

Pebbles73 Mon 16-Jul-12 21:41:00

complete strangers should have said before posted! (smile)

jaffajiffy Tue 17-Jul-12 05:59:38

Sorry you're right, pebbles as my DH reminded me it's trigger shot tonight and shagging wed and thurs. I got confused what day we're on.

Pebbles73 Tue 17-Jul-12 07:29:14

Was just checking in case we weren't doing enough shagging!!

Just curious dues everybody just try for the two days or do you carry on for another day?? Just wondered as was looking at the egg meets sperm plan and when you ovulate they say try for three days miss a day and have one last try. I guess that's because generally you can't be sure when you ovulate where as we know it's in that 48hr time frame. Apologies for the personal question! blush

jaffajiffy Tue 17-Jul-12 07:44:39

I hate the being told. Puts me right off, so we just shag all the time so it's not noticeable. Mr S says it's good to refresh the sperm every two days, so we just do that all month apart from the last evil week where pmt has taken over my body oh and we don't shag during AF because the Fertility Plan book says not to (can't remember why).

Havingkittens Tue 17-Jul-12 08:57:04

Jaffa, I didn't ever get more than one follie on the Letrozole either. That's why I'm on Gonal F and Tamoxifen now. Last cycle I had 2 follies with that. No BFP though sad. I have my tracking scan on Thursday (CD13) and am planning to start "trying" from tonight onwards. I've tried the two/three days prescribed and had no luck so I reckon it can't do any harm to continue with the methods we were following prior to Super Ovulation. Also, as an insurance, in case I happen to ovulate earlier. Louise said they only suggest the essential days so it puts less pressure on. I still think having a good "run up" is a good idea.

Not sure how it's going to go this month. I ended up at Latitude Festival over the weekend due to being offered freebies on Friday afternoon. It was all very last minute and the one concern was that I was supposed to do my last injection on the Sunday, when i would be there. I had kept all the cool packs from my various injection deliveries so got them out of the freezer and kept the injection in a little cool bag from Sat morning, when we left, until Sunday afternoon and it was still cold when I got it out to use so hopefully it will be ok. My concerns were that it may have been kept too cold and also that I ended up doing it 5 hours earlier than I was meant to because I knew that I wouldn't get the chance to go back to the tent at 9pm to do it. They say you're meant to do it at the same time each day. I don't suppose it will have a dramatic effect changing the time. Never thought I'd be doing that in a tent though. I didn't have an alcohol wipe so ended up using vodka to clean the area!

jaffa, I wish I could tell you the Gonal F made me loose a stone (or even a few pounds would be a start)! The first cycle of using it, it made me really tired. I didn't find that so much this time. I can't tell you what effect it has on your mood because I have plenty to make me feel sad at the moment so can't tell if it's worse from taking all the drugs or whether I'd be like that anyway.

brownstag Tue 17-Jul-12 10:54:30

Just got my results from Serum: positive for chlamydia DNA and increased bacterial load, which means some type of infection but not one of the ones they tested for. I've been asked to contact Penny re. treatment.
I've forgotten now which of you got sent the prescription without having to pay for it; is there anything you did or didn't do to prompt that, do you think? Is contacting Penny going to make any difference?
I was just thinking, what about if you go to your GUM clinic with the results; might they not prescribe?

CareBear1 Tue 17-Jul-12 11:02:08

Brownstag wow another positive. How do you feel about it?

I emailed Penny regarding recommended treatment as I was told to, and she emailed me back instructions of what antibiotics to take when, it wasn't a prescription just an email. I took this to the GP and they prescribed the antib's. The total cost came to £45 for both of us, as you have to pay a certain amount for each item don't you, even with an NHS prescription. They did make DH go in as well as me though, they wouldn't give me a prescription for both of us.

We're on day 13 out of 25 now, and other than feeling a bit sick at times (the anti-feeling sick drug om-something really helps) its been fine. I'm just having AF now and am mentalling as to whether it looks any different from normal! I did have a lot of brown/black discharge last week pre-AF that i convinced myself was my body expelling the nasties.

eurochick Tue 17-Jul-12 11:17:42

kittens I love your improvised use of vodka! How very rock and roll. I tended to use that antibac hand gel stuff when I was injecting.

I was only getting one follie on the Letrozole too and Mr S was plannign to bump up my dose when I decided to stop. Then I had an unmedicated IUI cycle and there were two mature follies on the scan! I don't think my ovaries liked being told what to do (like me - the easiest way to get me to do something is to order me not to do it!).

Brownstag I think the antibiotic regime Serum prescribe is more hardcore than what would be given by a GUM clinic here for "normal" chlamydia.

I had really bad pain with one cycle of superov, and all the symptoms od mild OHSS. It only lasted for a weekend though. By the time I saw Mr S on Monday for a scan I was no longer in pain and everything looked fine.

brownstag Tue 17-Jul-12 11:24:17

Thanks Carebear, I'll try to do the same. I'm in two minds about it really; my sister is a sexual health nurse, and she regards most of these infections they're testing for 'as of no clinical significance'. I also stumbled upon a website run by a gynaecologist which had a Q&A section, and someone asked him about these tests, and he said he used to test for them, and treat them, but he'd found no improvement in pregnancy rates so had stopped. On the other hand, I'm prepared to exhaust every avenue. Certainly with the bacterial load thing, it makes sense to me that if the vaginal ph isn't right, it could be killing off sperm. I have suspected I had something like that ever since having my DS but NHS tests found nothing.
Not looking forward to the anti-bs though. I will definitely get thrush (it doesn't take much), and therefore create another problem!

Abney Tue 17-Jul-12 17:44:53

Hi all. Reading all posts with interest. The first SO attempt I had about 3 follies and then it finally went down to 1. The 5th time I was on Gonal F for the first time which appeared to kick start my left ovary 2 x 24 mm follies found. Previously my leftie was deemed not to be working. No weight loss found with Gonal F but the Hydroxy definitely surpresses your appetite.

HavingKittens I am interested to know what you are keeping in the cool bag. Not the Gonal F I hope? I was told that this did not need to be kept in the fridge. Is this the case? What was you keeping in your freezer along side the peas and carrots? Strange that I am asking but I am very curious. smile

buzzybee123 Tue 17-Jul-12 17:45:49

pebbles I got a bit freaked out when he said have the hysteroscopy and I'm glad I waited until the next cycle, well I had my last injecyion today and haven't had any twinges at all confused also I only had 1 bar on my cbfm and usually I have 2 hmm this will all send me insane

brownstag a friend of mine always ate yogurt when on anti b's to combat thrush, when I was at school they told us the best way to deal with thrush was to put yogurt on a tampon, I have to say it works and is a lot cheaper than the canestan stuff athough a little gross

Pebbles73 Tue 17-Jul-12 18:00:39

Jaffa oh god you are good shagging every other day, not sure I could manage that! Top marks for effort . smile

How about everybody else are you all every other day shaggers, am I slacking?!

Kittens also living the vodka wonder what Mr S would make of it, ha ha!

Brownstag I am the same ad you re the Athens test, not sure if to do them or not. Might wait and see how the people taking treatment for it get on.

brownstag Tue 17-Jul-12 18:44:27

Pebbles, we generally shag for 5 days up to and including ovulation, and then nothing else for the whole month!
And re. the Athens test: my sister the sexual health nurse is going to ask her consultant at work when she's back from holiday what she makes of my results and the suggested treatment. The thing is, if I have chlamydia then I must have had it for a very long time as we've been together for so long and haven't been with anyone else since we got together. And I conceived my DS despite it; it's only since having him that I have infertility issues as well as NK cell problems, so it's the other 'unknown' infection that I'm more interested in, as that's only been going on, I think, since his birth.
BuzzyBee, thanks, yes I will be doing all that with the yoghurt. When I was about 14 I was on long-term antibiotic treatment and had thrush virtually constantly for a year or two. Then it went away for years and years, but I've had it again frequently recently since DS's birth. Maybe because of the imbalance caused by the other infection.

brownstag Tue 17-Jul-12 18:49:19

sorry, eurochick, just saw your post. Yes, that pain is quite a shocker, isn't it?EBut I suppose it means more than egg is coming out, so it's got to be goodin the long run.
... 6dpo ... how the days drag. I'm going to a festival on Saturday, will be 10dpo then and if the test is negative will be drinking all day, I'm afraid! I've been so virtuous lately that I need to let my hair down.

joycep Tue 17-Jul-12 19:07:20

hi there - sorry to drop in unannounced but brownstag, I got my serum results today and also tested positive for the chlamydia dna. They found some minor vaginal infection as well caused by the ecoli/proteus bacteria. I am wondering whether everyone tests positive for this chlamydia. Slightly nervous about taking all the anti-bs as thrush plagued me every single month last year. I would be really interested to hear what your sister has to say once she has spoken to the consultant!

carebear - I am glad the anti bs are going ok for you. Will you get your tests redone after you have finished~?

brownstag Tue 17-Jul-12 19:45:03

Hi Joycep, yes, I too am a bit dubious about the chlamydia DNA's prevalence in the normal population. I think the vaginal infection you mentioned is the same kind of thing as mine; but the way I understood it was that E. coli and proteus were just examples of what it could be; basically it wasn't one of the specific ones they tested for like ureaplasmas, etc.
If I do take the antibiotics I don't think I'll retest; it seems as if this fertility business is a bottomless pit for me to throw my money down as it is!

joycep Tue 17-Jul-12 20:54:54

yes a bottomless pit indeed - we have spent a hideous amount already and still no further forward! I don't think I'll retest either. On my google ramblings tonight, I have found that it can come back pretty easily.

CareBear1 Tue 17-Jul-12 21:49:43

Joycep I think the quote you posted on the 10+ thread is really interesting, that these infections may not affect otherwise perfectly fertile ladies, but if there are other issues they can tip the balance. My situation seems to be low ovarian reserve, high natural killer cells plus these infections, so no wonder nothing is getting through. This next month i'm finishing the anti-b's, doing IVF plus taking immune drugs - if all of that doesn't work well i'm not sure what i'll do after that!

i might re-test at some point, i think it will depend on what happens.

Oh and Kittens, I also loved the festival story - brings a whole new meaning to the phrase 'doing drugs at festival'!

And Euro, so sorry to hear about what a crappy time you've had regarding the smear results. I am certainly going to get very regular smears over the next couple of years now. Best of luck with the treatment and I'll be really interested in what Dr G says.

Havingkittens Tue 17-Jul-12 23:04:21

I told Louise about taking the Gonal F in my tent at a festival. She thought it was very funny. Didn't mention the vodka. That was for hygiene purposes though so I'm sure she wouldn't disapprove.

Abney, yes the Gonal F in the cool bag. When I ordered it they said they told me to keep it in the fridge. I've just read the instructions and it says to refrigerate it but then it says that if refrigeration is not available you can store it below 25 degrees Celcius for up to 3 months. When I've had it delivered it comes with the cold packs around it, wrapped in a giant polystyrene box so I just assumed it needed to be kept the same way as the Ovitrelle. I don't generally keep the cold packs in the freezer. I did keep all the ones I'd had delivered so far (totalling 6) because they stay frozen for a very long time and are much more useful than the icepacks you get for picnicking! I had them all in the bottom of the freezer when the lodger moved out last week because I need to defrost the rest of the freezer and figured I could just put the few things that were left in there in one of the drawers with the cold packs whilst I sorted out the freezer. See, very practical, me! Not just with the vodka. They were in the cupboard prior to that. I tell you what though, they are well worth keeping. Once I'd done my last injection, my OH put the beers in the cool bag with the packs that had already been in there for 36 hours and when we got back to the tent at around midnight the beers felt like they were straight out of the fridge!

brownstag Wed 18-Jul-12 07:30:08

Joycep, I asked Penny from Serum about the other infection (increased bacterial load) and she said:

'The increased bacterial load is a minor finding and will be taken care of with these antibiotics. If you have been feeling that there was "something" wrong, this is probably the chlamydia infection. The longer it stays untreated the more it affects your body. You managed to stay pregnant with it probably because they hadn't reached that stage yet where they become a problem for fertility. Once they did you started having problems conceiving. I am sure you will see a difference in this "something" you have been feeling that was wrong after the treatment.'

I don't know whether I'm convinced or not. When my DH and I got together 13 years ago, we had everything tested at the GUM clinic and it was all negative. But maybe if it was hidden C I had it all the time, who knows, maybe from 25 years ago even. It just seems strange that it would not affect me for so long, but now in the last 18 months it has done.
As to the infections coming back pretty easily, how can they do so if they've been eradicated in both partners and they stay faithful?

Arianrhod Wed 18-Jul-12 09:29:07

Hi all .. Reading from sunny Spain so been quiet for a few days but following everything with interest. Day 4 of the anti-bs here, caused no issues for OH (he won't stop drinking beer though but says he 'only has a pint or two a day' and thinks that is ok. Sigh. Not caused me any issues yet but taking anti-bs longer than a week in the past has caused me stomach issues so I've been taking daily hefty probiotics alongside.

The hidden C infection won't show up on standard GUM tests so either of you could have had it for years and I read up a bit about the longevity of it, seems other people say what Penny is about it can stay dormant and then cause problems later. I don't know, but I'm thinking I want a shot at getting rid of it and the urea plasma .. and I wont be getting tested again, at 270 euros a shot that's just too much for me plus there's no way I want to be taking another 25 days of anti-bs.

As for DTD I'm afraid there is a general lack of interest (on my part I'm afraid) so no every other day shagging for us, much more on the same lines as brownstag with a few days before and during OV and then that's it. Two years of TTC have killed the romance of it all for me I'm afraid sad

/waves to everyone, will catch up properly when we're back and I'm not on the iPhone!

joycep Wed 18-Jul-12 11:15:49

Care- so yes your case sounds multi factorial . But perhaps your infections are the cause of your high nk cells so wiping out those infections and using immunes has now got to tip the balance in your favour.!  From what i remember your AMH levels weren’t all that bad. I have seen a lot of people on FF with AMH levels below 2 conceiving – some naturally. I think amh is good at scaring the life out of us – i have spent the last 2 years knowig my reserve is low for my age and now nervously waiting for the results again 2 years on. I’m praying it hasn’ fallen off a cliff even more!
Thanks very much brownstag for posting that. That is helpful. I am interested in  her line “if you have been feeling there was something wrong” – I have been feeling there is sth wrong but not convinced it’s the hidden C either.! All our GUM tests over here are negative. And  Just over two years ago I had never had unprotected sex before. We started ttc and i was pregnant 2 months later and then m/c (I had actually been on antibiotics). Anyway I don’t believe that that m/c was caused by hidden C  and I don’t think my inability to conceive since really can be related to hidden C unless I had it pre unprotected sex – which apparently is possible. I presume that is why people find they eradicate it but then find it is back again or perhaps the antibiotics don’t clear it up. I don’t know , it seems a mystery to me! Anyway I did find people on FF who had negative hidden C results so it would seem not everyone has it.
What level of Chlamydia dna did Serum find in your blood? Mine was 4.2.

Arian- I am glad you are ok on the anti bs so far. Enjoy Spain!

brownstag Wed 18-Jul-12 13:04:18

Hallo Ari, a holiday seems a very good way to pass those interminable 25 days. And yes, I'm afraid for us too sex has become only about procreation, with a thin and unconvincing veneer of enthusiasm!
Joycep, my chlamydia was 6.1 x 10[to the power of 3, can't do a superscript] micrograms DNA. I believe I did read somewhere that it was even possible for chlamydia to be passed non-sexually, but I can't find it now.
I forwarded my results to Louise and asked her what Mr S thinks of it and she said he doesn't use the test as he thinks it inaccurate, and that his colleagues at NewLife don't use it either. So tricky to know what to do ...
On a different note, does anyone have endometriosis? I have, or had, stage 4, the most severe, and was told 20 years ago that conception was likely to be difficult. I left it another 18 years before trying though, and in the end, my endo doesn't seem to have had much bearing on my fertility as far as I know. In fact, now that I've had my son, my symptoms of endo are minimal compared with before, and yet it's now that I have infertility issues. Before it was miscarriage.

Havingkittens Wed 18-Jul-12 19:13:50

Pebbles, I just realised I didn't answer your post about possible Asherman's. I was concerned that I might have some scarring due to my very light periods last year and struggles to conceive. I've had so many surgical procedures that I thought it was probable that there was some damage or scarring. I had a HyCoSy scan at NLC which showed some light areas which the consultant thought might be scarring. I took the report to the NHS Fertility Clinic which my GP had referred me to and on the basis of that suspicion she referred me for a hysteroscopy on the NHS which showed no scarring at all, so it either healed itself, or wasn't actually scarring. It is my understanding that if they do find scarring during a hysteroscopy they can repair it with a laser there and then. Mind you, anyone on the Asherman's boards or Yahoo group would say that you have to have it treated by one of two or three specialists in that field, which means having a scan with them and then possibly the surgery with them which is super expensive.

Did you have your previous hysteroscopies prior to any subsequent ERPCS? ie. is there a chance that scarring could've happened since the last two? If so, it may be worth having another one. That way you will know whether to pursue it further.

When there was a suspicion of slight scarring Mr S seemed to think that the Progynova thickening my lining would be sufficient to sort out the problem. Louise said that that would be fine but that if I was going to have IVF I would need to have a hysteroscopy.

Pebbles73 Wed 18-Jul-12 21:33:58

Thanks Kittens, Brownstag and Ari for sharing that info. We only dtd the two days recommended ie Sunday and Monday although twice on Sunday. Think will try tonight as well just in case although pretty sure I would have ovulated Sunday as had lots of cramping in my right side. Think will have to try harder next month but it is hard having to have sex to order particularly when you have been trying a long time. Its also having to do it everyday even though only for a few days. My dh gets up pretty early as well so mornings are tricky!

Had a bit of a mare last night and today as one of my cats got these tiny baby birds, only a few days old really with no feathers. They were still alive so managed to find the nest and put them back in. Came home from work today and they were both in the grass and sadly one dead. The other had a wound to its head but still alive so took it to Tiggywinkles in Aylsebury and they said it will be fine once they feed it and give it some antibiotics. Felt so awful for poor little thing though ad don't know how long it had been in the wet and cold. sad.

Pebbles73 Wed 18-Jul-12 21:37:40

Whoops crossed posts Kittens! Thanks do much for the info, I have actually never had an erpc just medical management so was surprised to find out I had scarring at all. Think I will try not to worry about it until I see Mr S next month for follicle tracking and see if I should take the Progynova. Still have some in my 'medical' box if drugs I am storing up!!

CareBear1 Wed 18-Jul-12 21:43:29

Joycep and Brownstag my chlamydia score was 1.3 x 10 but I have to admit I have no idea what that means.

Joycep hope you're right about the AMH, and yes I've read lots of stories of people with only 0.0something and still got PG. Mr S when I saw him poo poo'd the importance of it. When do you get your result?

I've switched from SO to IVF again this round. I was on 7.5m letrozole and got 2 or 3 good sized follicles each time.

brownstag Thu 19-Jul-12 11:29:40

Has anyone actually found some 'proper' research on hidden C? When I google it I get only forums and other pseudo-medical sites, plus the info from the testing lab itself, but no scholarly articles.

joycep Thu 19-Jul-12 16:25:06

Care – i think that means your chlymadia dna level is minimal. And I gather places like the ARGC place no importance on amh levels as well. From what I can tell though, you can get the best doctor in the world telling you one thing and the next best doctor telling you the complete opposite. This is why everything is such a minefield! I get all results next Tuesday and will be told next steps as well. I’m trying to go as far as i can with the NHS because I spent so much money last year going private and got no where.  I can’t remember now but did you take a list of Level 1 tests in somewhere – did you get all those tested on the nhs?
 Brownstag – I have only seen forum information on Hidden C and i think the trouble is the hidden C test is patented by this Greek place – Locus Medicus – and so you are really going on their word on this as no one else can test for it!  I have read quite a lot of Dr Troth’s book though which can be read online. This is all about bacterial infections including normal chlamydia causing infertility and he believes most unexplained infertility goes back to these infections. He sorts it out by a serious antibiotic war on your body. His evidence seems quite compelling but doesn’t everything?

brownstag Fri 20-Jul-12 13:22:45

Thanks Joycep; God, I keep veering from one opinion to the other. By Dr Troth, did you mean Dr Toth? I looked him up and it's so convincing, as you say.
How is it going, you other antibioticers? If you can convince me that it's tolerable, maybe I'll give it a go.
Just got another NHS fertility appointment this morning. Not sure what they can do, though, as I think Clomid is the only weapon in their arsenal against infertility in the early forties. Last time they did give me oestrogen pessaries to try to counteract the drying nature of Clomid, and presumably the thinning of the endometrium, but as they didn't scan me, who knows how well that worked? I shall carry on with hydroxy though, but can't afford any more private superovulation treatment for the time being.

jaffajiffy Fri 20-Jul-12 16:45:55

Hi, all and I hope you're coping with this blardy weather!

No news from me other than lots of twangs in the ovary area and peeing three times last night! I feel knocked up! I'm not, as we only did the trigger shot on Tuesday night. I know it's HCG, so I presume my body is reacting to that. Anyone else had peeing as a symptom 1dpo?

joycep, brownstag et al - I've been reading all the test results with interest. Am I right in thinking that these tests are useful if you're having trouble conceiving? Or might it answer recurrent miscarriage as well? I don't know what caused my first two mc, but the last one was a chromosomal abnormality. I had the UK STD tests done (I know they're different) when I got together with DH, so I'm operating on the principle that I don't really need the tests - what do you all think?

care it's interesting that you're on IVF this time round - is that with Mr S? (sorry if everyone knows that except me - I've newly returned to the board and aren't as up-to-date as I was!). Are you using letrozole with the IVF? My friend (sadly) has breast cancer, so she went on letrozole to prep her eggs for harvesting and freezing before doing chemo! We had a pill-popping bonding moment.

pebbles that's interesting re. scarring. I hope Mr S allays your fears. And I'm hearin' ya on the dtd reluctance. We've been really good this cycle, but on Thursday morning I had to wake DH with, "rise and shine, superstud. Let's get this over with" as I had to dash to work. We've been trying to have a baby for well over two years (I know your story is a lot longer!), and I have to say it's much easier in the months between a mc and trying again, when there's no pressure and no Mr S saying, "please have intercourse Wednesday and Thursday night." This time round, though, we've been pretty good and trying to keep it fun. And I also have two cats who also enjoy bringing gifts. No baby birds, thank the lord, but we've had a couple of live adult ones shredded to death in the hallway. <sigh>

ari I hope you're enjoying Spain and you're able to inject some romance back into the DTD.

kittens thanks for the gonal F info. Sounds like you have got that cooling system licked! And we need to compile a dossier of the lengths to which we have gone to keep this SO programme on the road! You can start it off with the vodka disinfectant and the tent technique!

Hope you all have dry (?) weekends! Jxx

brownstag Fri 20-Jul-12 19:00:28

jaffaJiffy, the infections are theorised to be a cause of both miscarriage and infertility, and many other problems in pregnancy, low birthweight, still birth, etc. My husband and I also tested negative on every standard UK STI test, so my results were a bit of a surprise to say the least.
Didn't have any side effects from the trigger shot, but then I don't really have any side effects from any hormonal drugs, the pill, cyclogest, etc. I've never suffered from PMS ymptoms and usually only have pregnancy symptoms after 6 weeks.
Couldn't help doing a First Response today at 9dpo, which was negative. Which at least means plenty of drinking at a festival tomorrow. grin

buzzybee123 Fri 20-Jul-12 20:32:58

brownstag 9dpo is still early your could implant today or tomorrow so you're not out

jaffa i'm about to take my first ovitrelle jab tonight, I already need to pee in the night so hopefully it won't affect me grin

well I have one follie again 21mm on my usually lazy left side, Mr S said he'll up my dose of gonal f to 225 next cycle so I can get 2 next time hmm, the progynova has improved my lining to 7.8mm on cd10. He has also given me hydroxy too

Havingkittens Mon 23-Jul-12 09:31:46

Ovitrelle hasn't made me pee in the night but the Gonal F has given me really sore nipples! 2 good sized follies for me this month also seemed to kick off lots of ov pains, some of which made me gasp out loud. Luckily alone in my car and not whilst with a client.

I did my trigger shot on Thursday so I guess I'll be testing first weekend in August. Will be typical if I get a BFP this time as I will be on a rather relentless work schedule during the Olympics and can well do without being as tired as pregnancy makes you! But, of course, I will be delighted too. I am on my penultimate cycle of SO. I think we will do the FISH test this week and maybe SA too. Then we will know whether we should try IUI in our final cycle or save our money for IVF/Array CGH etc.

brownstag Mon 23-Jul-12 11:15:06

Mmm ... Louise just emailed me to say that Mr S would prescribe the antibiotics, after last week telling me that he doesn't use the Athens test as he thinks it's inaccurate. I've just asked her if he's changed his mind or whether he's 'doing it as a favour'.
Talking of changing minds, I found an article from 2007, about steroid treatment for miscarriage, in the US, I think, and Mr S was quoted in it as a UK miscarriage specialist, saying he would have concerns about the effects of the drugs used on the baby. How times change!

duggs1976 Mon 23-Jul-12 23:06:38

brownstag anti bs were just fine! Re tested last week and I have clear result on ureplasma ( yay) can ttc again from next weekend. Is just about a yr from first app with dr s. not sure I'm even going to bother telling him about seeing dr g? Going to see how I get on naturally then try SO again in sep. adoption question - yes 6 to 12 mths gap depending on council. But u don't have to tell them anything as isn't linked up. DH and I thinking of moving west for quieter life Bath way so adoption too soon for us. Hoping to get pg and keep the damn thing soon pls. Bored now. Sorry cant scroll on here so rubbish name check !

brownstag Tue 24-Jul-12 11:44:35

Thanks Duggs; how many antibiotics did you take for ureaplasma?
The sister of a friend of mine and her husband got pregnant naturally while their adoption process was going through, after trying for about 5 yrs, with IVF, etc.
... 13dpo and tests still negative ...

duggs1976 Wed 25-Jul-12 08:08:44

I took them for 4 weeks! Can't remember the dosage but had 3 types. Two at start then 21 days of another then one at the end. They were no problem I didn't even notice anything. Then again after the drug protocol of ivf and intrallipids and steroids etc then relatively speaking it would have been easy I guess. Yes I have heard those stories about adoption etc. anyway I hope u r ok?

Arianrhod Wed 25-Jul-12 10:13:08

You didn't have hidden C as well then duggs? Just (!) two diff anti-bs for me with hidden C plus ureaplasma, day 10 and going ok so far.

Am reading all posts but posting a bit difficult on the phone, back Sun so will catch up properly then. /waves to all

duggs1976 Wed 25-Jul-12 13:58:58

Oh yes I did! Trace amounts but was there. The standard urine c test I had to have before my ivf showed a negative result so it really was hidden wink

brownstag Wed 25-Jul-12 14:50:05

Went to the GP today and she wasn't going to play ball with prescribing the antibiotics; however she is writing to the consultant at the GU clinic to refer me and see if he will. But I might have asked Mr S for the prescriptions before then. Plus I assume he will write one for DH which will save a lot of bother.
What is the deal with not drinking on the antibiotics; is it because it makes you ill or because it will prevent them from working? We are on holiday next week so I'm wondering whether to hold off for another month.
14dpo and this morning I got another one of those evaporation lines on an internet cheapie (not going to fall into that trap again!). Two more internet cheapies said no, but by then I had decided to use another progesterone pessary 'just in case'.
How many days are you meant to use the Cyclogest for? I had stopped it at 12dpo, thinking that I don't want it to extend my luteal phase unnecesarily if I'm not pregnant. What is everyone's experience of it? Can it hold off AF, or would bleeding break through if you're not pregnant?
I realised today that the thought of a natural cycle this coming month actually scares me, because I've got so used to the control (with SO) over when I ovulate and knowing I'll have a decent luteal phase. I was even thinking of taking some old Clomid at the back of the cupboard, even though I know I won't get pregnant on it, just to maintain that control! It's also useful to have a scan on a Monday at Harley street, so a nice 28 days would be very useful for the future. Barking!

duggs1976 Wed 25-Jul-12 21:09:52

I ignored the "non drinking" part! Bloody hell. . . The lives we've been living these past few years if drinking was off the agenda I'd be in a loony bin for sure smile Is standard advice but it is a bit like a 30mph speed limit.