Secondary Infertility and IVF

[Wigglesmummy]

Can anyone advise? We have 1 lovely son now 3 conceived in about 3 weeks. A miscarriage last year and trying (since then) for 18 months. Just found out my husband has a sperm count of 3 million - so low the consultant couldn't believe it. Lucky he has met our son! Only chance now for a second is ICSI. Problem is that I am not sure I can - call me a coward (and I am) but the idea of the injections not to mention the effect of the drugs themselves, scares me stupid. What will it do to me, our life, our son? So my question - has anyone any advice to improve sperm count. Has anyone else faced anything similar and what helped them make up their minds. Is IVF always awful? How much variation is there between clinics as to drug regimes, types etc. Sorry stabbing in the dark as I seem to have so many questions I don't know where to start

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Professor Robert Winston has written a book called "The IVF Revolution". This covers all aspects of treatment including the emotional side of things. It could very well help you hence me mentioning it.

Numerous things have been tried to increase sperm count but without much success. Sperms are complicated things and there is much about them that is not understood. Was a proper medical reason established for the low count - e.g a varicocele, him having mumps as a child?. Of course you don't have to answer that but if either was teh case you have a reason as to why the count may be so low. Forms of sperms are also important, are they formed well.

How is your consultant - have you discussed your very real and understandable fears with him?. Is this person easy to talk to; it is vitally important that the three of you can work as a team particularly if you have been advised that ICSI is the only way forward now.

[Wigglesmummy]

Thanks Attila. Book sounds very helpful - I am a book person but its difficult to sift through the trash to get to something good. Great to have a recommendation. No reason that we can think of for low sperm count (believe me we have thought) and presumably the fact we have a son means it hasn't always been so low.
The consultant is certainly someone I trust. To be honest last appointment was such a bombshell the questions didn't form. We have another appointment to discuss the next step (last appointment was supposed to be to sort out Clomid as everyone thought the sperm test was a formality) - same chap but different clinic. May also ask about counselling then.

[Earplugs]

Hi Wiggle,
Just read this and can't believe it, we are well and truely in the same boat.

I also have a 3yr old DS conceived in very first month of trying. We've been TTC#2 for just over a year now and a few weeks ago I packed DH off for a semen analysis as was getting a bit as to why things weren't happening.

Anyway, results came back awful, 9 million count but with only 3% normal morphology. We were both totally . DH has got to go back for another test in a few months time to see if there is any change as the consultant said that we couldn't rely on one test result alone.

If there is no change then we've been told ICSI is the only route available to us also and I feel exactly as you do about it. Its just one of those things that I never thought I'd have to consider (as I'm sure is the same for everyone) but when you have had one so easily, it makes it all the more harder to understand why you can't again.

We also don't know if DH's sperm have always been this way or if its something thats happened recently so its impossible to tell if we would even be in with any chance of conceiving with these levels naturally.

Sorry to hear of your miscarriage, but that does go to show that you can at least get pregnant with your DH's profile!

If you need a buddy, I'd be very happy to hold hands along this journey!

[Wigglesmummy]

Earplugs that is really spooky. I would love a buddy for this. Most of my friends have recently had no. 2 so much as I love them this isn't really something they can help with and our families are a bit useless on this sort of thing, so feeling a bit adrift. We also only found out on Tuesday and so are still reeling.
DH also has to have another test as the consultant is sure its a blip, but who knows. Even then its still ICSI (I suspect he thinks its unlikely to become 'normal' and given my age - I'm 42 but all my tests have shown my fertility is much better than my age would suggest). I'm force feeding him vitamins and trying to get him to go for a walk every lunch time so he isn't sitting all day (we moved to the country 18 months ago and he has swapped a 20 minute walk to work for a 30 minute drive and I suspect that may make a difference). It all makes you feel so powerless.
I have ordered the book Attila recommended and will let you know what its like - if you haven't gone there already.

[ihearthuckabees]

Hi Wiggles
I have had a similar experience to you: easy first conception, healthy DS but secondary infertility, although for me it was due to scarring I suffered after giving birth.

Here's what helped me to decide what to do:

I asked the consultant his views - he gave me the usual stats (20% success rate, how your changes lower the older you are - I was 37 at the time, the risks involved etc). None of that sounded good. I was also scared about pumping a load of hormones into my body, and whether it would make me crazy.

Another thing that influenced me was thinking about, what if I successfully conceived and yet there was something wrong with the baby. I know this could happen with any pregnancy, but I think I'd feel more responsible with a pregnancy that I had 'made' happen, if that makes sense (I know you 'make' any pregnancy happen, but this felt different to me).

Not sure if you've thought about this, but I was also uncomfortable with the idea that if the lab managed to create several embryos and I didn't use them all trying to conceive, that they would still exist and eventually have to be destroyed. That felt funny to me (even though I am not an anti-abortionist or anything, and don't believe the embryo is a human being or anything, so I'm not sure why I felt that way).

These reasons are mainly medical, but the other thing I thought about was more philosophical. I kind of wanted to be able to count my blessings. I had been lucky enough to have a child, healthy and happy, with no problems. A lot of people didn't have that. And the consultant had said something to me that really hit home - I asked what he would do in my position, and he said that he felt that he had a much stronger responsibility for the children he already had than to one who didn't exist.

SO....

I decided not to go ahead with IVF. However, it wasn't a straightforward process. I did doubt myself a lot, especially when I came across people like londonlottie who did have firstly, the courage and determination to go ahead with it, and secondly, the good fortune for it to have been successful. londonlottie, I am so pleased for you that it worked out, and you're right, it isn't too bad for a lot of people, which is great. I don't know how to reconcile this with the sadder stories where it hasn't worked out. It's impossible to know which one I would have experienced. Maybe it comes down to whether you are a risk taker or not, and in this arena it felt more... what's the word?... authentic/honest/realistic (not sure i can articulate this properly)? to see the decision as already made by 'nature'.

The decision did consume a lot of my thoughts for probably two years. Like you, a lot of friends were having their second or third babies, and it was difficult. I felt broody and I felt sad, but it has got easier. I did a good job on myself of focusing on the pluses of having an only child, of which there are many, and now i actually quite often feel relieved that I only have one when i realise how much work having more is (My DS is now nearly 8, so I am a few years on). I know it's not perfect, but then is any family perfect??? We are still a family, and we have a good time together, so i am happy with my decision on the whole. The question of what might have been now feels like any other 'what might have been' question, like what if I'd taken that job instead of this, what if I'd chosen to go to a different university and so on: it's a hypothetical alternative life I could have led, but didn't choose.

Just to finish, I should say that my DH was initially quite keen to give IVF a go (let's try it once and if it doesn't work we can leave it) but he supported me decision, and was also able to be philosophical about it. He also said he didn't feel really strongly either way, so that really helped as i wasn't fighting someone else's opinions.

Sorry this is such an epic post, but I hope it helps. I also hope I don't sound smug in any way. I think whatever you decide there will be times when you wonder if it was right, but good luck with the process, and try not to let it consume you - you still have a life to lead right now, and one you can enjoy whatever the outcome of your fertility issues are.

[ihearthuckabees]

OMG, I've just seen how long my last post is. Sorry! Good luck getting through it...

[Wigglesmummy]

WOw. Thanks to everyone. I have skimmed these posts from ihearthuckabees, londonlottie and belgianbun (existing son does deserve lunch whatever else) and they are all very helpful. I may well come back to you when I have digested it more.
Trouble with kids is you feel guilty at every stage - at least I suppose having 1 I knew that already...

[Earplugs]

I second wiggle, huge thanks ladies for sharing your experiences. Lots to think about and I will most certainly also have a read through the assisted conception thread. Especially interesting to read the 2 very positive experiences of each side of the coin. Whilst deciding to proceed with IVF takes courage, making the decision not to also takes a huge amount.

At 36, I dont really feel I have time on my side and think perhaps our plan of just seeing what happens is coming to an end. DH is very reluctant to discuss our options at the moment, or at least until we get results of the next analysis. I think he's holding out for a miracle that the lifestyle changes we have made are going to have a dramatic effect. I am am however sceptical.

Would be very interested to hear what you think of the book Wiggle,good luck with keeping your DH motivated with the lifestyle changes, mine is totally off all alcohol and caffeine too, its going to be a very dry xmas in our house!

[ihearthuckabees]

Good luck wiggles and earplugs

[Clure]

hi ladies, thought I'd pop on and join you. Similar situation but problem with ttc is with me rather than DH.
I have DD who will be 5 next month, conceived after nearly 2 years and fell pg first round of clomid. We have been trying for number 2 for nearly 2 years, I'm now 42 and consultant's hormone screening show possible premature menopause.
We are naturally devastated. I have done 4 cycles of clomid and advised ivf but with donor eggs. Ivf is scarey in itself, but now I have a massive problem getting my head around the donor egg thing.
Would be interested in hearing if the Robert Winston book is worth a look. Wishing you all the luck in the world earplugs and wigglesmummy

[Earplugs]

Hi clure,
Sorry to hear you are also having problems. Its like a massive slap around the face to get poor results isn't it. My first reaction was to laugh when the consultant explained DH results . I don't have a clue why as it wasn't in the slightest bit funny. It wasn't until the following day that the implications of it hit home and I have also been pretty devastated since.

I really hope there are other ladies on here that have been through IVF with donor eggs that can share their experiences too. I don't know enough at all about IVF myself either, but is there no chance of using your own eggs at all?

Hopefully there is plenty of luck for us all to go around!

[Wigglesmummy]

Welcome Clure to the band of the 'shocked by test results'. Have you looked into The Daisy Network. Don't know much about it myself but (being a magazine junky) read about it somewhere recently. It helps women who are going through early menopause including IVF and donor issues. Maybe worth a look. Donor anything is hard - it might improve the chances of IVF working as the eggs are nice and young. Still hard though.
HOw you doing earplugs? Good weekend?
We've done a good bit of thinking and researching stats. HMMMMMMMn. 43 in April and IVF chance of success drops below 4%. Looks like pants to me. However, as still waiting for the referral and the next sperm test, we have plenty of time to think! Being an impatient control freak, I think I find it harder that it is a sperm problem (ie I can only nag about it and I HATE nagging) than if it was me (as I was convinced it was). Obviously if it was the other way round would be just as hard but different.

[Wigglesmummy]

Clure -just read that back (after I posted of course) - I don't mean that it is harder if its an OH issue. It all stinks. Please don't think I was being insensitive. Just a Monday musing

[Clure]

no offense taken wigglesmummy thanks for posting back. Will have a look at the daisy network later, thanks any extra information helps. Will you have to fund the ivf yourself?

[Earplugs]

Hi Ladies,
All OK here thanks wiggle, good weekend but too short for my liking!

I know what you mean about the nagging. I too am a total control freak and I'm on at DH non stop! I do feel bad about it but as I keep telling him, I'd rather we had to have a few months of nagging than have to pay 6K for ICSI! We'd have to fully fund our treatment and whilst we could probably get the money together,we don't really have that sort of cash at our fingertips! Given the sucess rate of IVF is low anyway, it worries me that we'd have to try and find the money for several cycles which would certainly be beyond our reach.

Is it really 4% sucess rate at 43? Its just pants isn't it and not an easy decision to make.

Did the docs give you any idea how long you would have to wait for your DH retest? Ours did say its best to wait 3 months to give the lifestyle changes time to have an effect but it feels like such a long time to wait!

[Wigglesmummy]

Weekends always too short. This is also my last morning of peace and quiet before Christmas holidays. Am I taking advantage of it? No I am sending this and then cleaning the bathroom ...
We will have to fund ourselves as well and would be working on more than 1 cycle - so similar issues - 20K spent on something with a chance of success much lower than I'd normally be prepared to back. Consultant recommended waiting 6 - 8 weeks minimum for re test so we can see what we think then.
That aside I think I am starting to come to a decision. Ihearthuckabees post really struck a chord with me. I think if I was 3/4 years younger I might have decided to press on with IVF and see where it took us but now it just looks like IVF could destroy what we have without producing a baby. But then maybe next week I will feel different. Last week, my views changed every hour. Maybe this week, its just taking me longer to change my mind!

[Earplugs]

I know how you feel, my mind changes every hour usually depending on how well behaved DS is being at the time! Think we're just going to have to wait and see how we stand with the other test results.

I had DS nursery nativity yesterday which was lovely however being surrounded by all the other mums with their Maxi Cosi's laden with new babies made me feel a bit crappy. Just realised that I'm also due on xmas eve which is rubbish timing. I told myself I wouldn't get upset each month now as we know the reason why its unlikely we've conceived but I think that was being optimistic.

Probably starting to feel rubbish as PMT is on the way

[Wigglesmummy]

Sorry for silence Earplugs. Nasty cold so full of the spirit of bah humbug.
Other people's joyful bundles are the pits aren't they. Anyway, give yourself a break - we are so used to being massively in tune with our cycle, its going to be hard to ignore. So get out the gin/ wine/ mince pies - because you know what, it doesn't matter if you do. Also our children are old enough to leave with Dad, grandma or anyone really - so think of all those rushing back to get the next feed or not being able to leave them and enjoy for now. Go shopping in the sales, go for a walk in the snow (OK its ice here now), have a pedicure. Anything.
I know we are kidding ourselves but its a period of adjustment so we might as well emphasise the positives while we work out the next stage of our game plans.
Happy Christmas to you and yours

[Earplugs]

Hi Wiggle, hope that you had a lovely Xmas. We had a good one here although not in the slightest bit relaxing as we had a few of our family over and I felt as though I was constantly preparing food! Had a very lazy day yesterday though to make up for it and never lifted a finger! Bliss.

Got a great xmas gift in the form of AF, but at least as soon as it arrives the PMT goes so once i've gotton over the disapointment, I'm less of a miserable cow Out of protest I didn't take my folic acid for a few days which made me feel better in childish sort of way. Might think about changing supplements anyway as have been spending a fortune on the Femmibion (?) pregnancy ones but might just start getting cheapo folic from Tesco in future.

Was lovely seeing DS enjoy Xmas though, I think it is the first year that he kind of understood what xmas brings. He has been bouncing off the walls for the past few days and isn't showing any signs of stopping yet. He now keeps on asking how long it is until next xmas!

How did your DH get on 'sans alcohol' by the way? Apart from a glass of red with dinner, mine did keep off which I was impressed with although we've got New Year Eve to get through yet!!!!

[Earplugs]

Forgot to say, hope you are feeling better by the way!

[Lilybunny]

Hello wiggle and earplugs (clure too if you are still about).

Can I join you all, I'm also in the same boat. I have a dd, age 4, and we have been ttc for 2 years. I had a mc last january and nothing since. I had my bloods done which were ok, but my dh tests are a bit borderline. My gp was a bit useless with the details but seemed to be suggesting it was a morphology issue. Dh is sending another sample in the new year. I really didn't want such a big gap and I am wondering about whether to just call it a day. The GP said ICSI would be the suggested route, but we really don't think that would be right for us, not to mention the cost. I feel completely emotional as I also got my af on Christmas eve and it's now been nearly a year since my mc. I keep hoping 2010 will bring good news. New Year's eve coincides with a full moon this year, it's meant to mean new beginnings...here's hoping.

[Lilybunny]

Sorry about the crap rambling post, must be the new year's vino!

[Earplugs]

Hi Lily and welcome! The more the merrier and whilst we might not be able to offer any pearls of wisdom, just knowing that there are others in the same boat sometimes helps with the frustration.

Sorry to hear of your mc also, it frightens me to hear how common it is (not that it makes it any less devastating when it happens). At the moment just getting a sniff at a BFP seems like an enormous task for me but obviously that is just the tip of the iceberg on a very fragile journey.

I know what you mean about age gaps, but I don't think that a 4/5 gap is huge TBH. It probably feels it because you are very aware of others that have already had a second or more in the time that you've been trying but its a very common sight to see women dropping 5/6 year olds off at school with a new one in tow. I think some people wait until the eldest has started school before having the next to make things easier. I do know what you mean though when it just isn't how you imagined it would be and all my friends have gone on to have a second before the first turned 2. I think most of our friends and family have now assumed that we have decided to stop at 1.

At the moment I'm contemplating having one of those 'egg reserve' tests done. Think they can only be done privately so will probably cost a bomb but maybe it will give us an idea how urgent our decision about going for IVF needs to be?

Here's hoping the New Year brings us lots of luck!