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All of you who CHOOSE not to vaccinate your children

(659 Posts)

Do you realise that's the reason why there's now an epidemic of measles in Wales?

You know children with auto-immune problems, children with cancers, children with allergies that mean they can't be medicated, children who react badly to drugs?
You know them? They're suffering because of you not wanting to vaccinate your child.

You have no medical reason for not vaccinating, but plenty of reasons TO vaccinate.

You are causing a whole generation of children to be endangered from a preventable disease.

Measles can be fatal
(that means it can kill )

PigletJohn Tue 28-May-13 10:49:03

bobbyperu Shall I quote the WHO statement again? Oh go on then:

(quotes a very brief cherry-picked sentence from www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/ which also says:

Key facts
Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.

In 2011, there were 158 000 measles deaths globally – about 430 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.

More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures.

Measles vaccination resulted in a 71% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2011 worldwide.

In 2011, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.

fascicle Tue 28-May-13 11:07:10

PigletJohn
So the only conditions where you have said you think vaccination is of value is where mortality rates are extremely high.

PigletJohn, you've ignored the last two paragraphs of my previous post which explain my position. You persist in making incorrect assumptions from my posts. Again you've added words which I have not written, resulting in you being shocked by a position I have not expressed. For the record, my previous response on the benefits of vaccination included two examples, not an exhaustive list. It is not my place to tell others that they should/should not vaccinate, or that vaccination is valid for their situation. It's up to individuals to make their own decisions, based on their own circumstances, risk factors etc.

PigletJohn, you've ignored many questions asked of you, by me and other posters.

What are your views on Chickenpox? Are you passionate about reducing the mortality rates of e.g flu and road traffic accidents (each, I believe, resulting in several thousand deaths each year)?

PigletJohn Tue 28-May-13 11:36:38

I am avoiding your attempts to fog the subject of this thread.

You are welcome to start a thread about road safety or chickenpox if you wish.

BTW I am of course responding to your expressed position when you replied to my question. If you have further opinions which you chose not to include in your answer, I am not aware of them. Therefore I am commenting on your reply.

fascicle Tue 28-May-13 12:15:51

WearsMink (to CrumbledWalnuts)
That's easy though: just shelter behind herd immunity.

WearsMink (to me)
The death rate is higher in poorer nations. What stops it anywhere is vaccination. Which is why you have the luxury of saying that measles doesn't worry you...because others vaccinate.

Please indicate where I have said that measles doesn't worry me. I've said no such thing.

The herd immunity issue. Contrary to what you've said previously, it isn't straightforward (e.g. the relationship between seroconversion and immunity; the duration of vaccine protection).

How does adult immunity status (or lack thereof) affect herd immunity? What about the 'risks' posed by adults who are unvaccinated/may not have been exposed to measles?

As for non vaccinators sheltering behind herd immunity (if indeed the concept works as expected) - what about those who make their choices in spite of, rather than because of, herd immunity arguments? Those who would make the same decision regardless of others choosing to vaccinate?

bobbyperu Tue 28-May-13 12:38:59

Piglet John, thank you for quoting this more fully. So now we have:

Severe complications from measles can be avoided though supportive care that ensures good nutrition, adequate fluid intake and treatment of dehydration with WHO-recommended oral rehydration solution

and

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.

In 2011, there were 158 000 measles deaths globally – about 430 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.

More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures.

Measles vaccination resulted in a 71% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2011 worldwide.

In 2011, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.

The first sentence (which I have quoted) is in no way diminished by the rest of what you have quoted. Perhaps that's why it appears in the same place and the WHO did not find it contradictory?

But even though they are not contradictory, the way they have used them is interesting. I urge you, read it again. What you might notice is deaths in developing countries (and probably deaths amongst adults or people with underlying health conditions) being used to encourage people to get their well-nourished young children in developed countries to get vaccinated. Now that, my friend, is what is called fog.

By the way, did you have any answers to my questions about the South Wales outbreak? And, out of interest, what is your view on the Polio cases I have mentioned? This thread may be about measles but it is clear that wearsmink and others place great faith in vaccinations and their recommending 'authorities' in general.

fascicle Tue 28-May-13 12:56:18

PigletJohn
I am avoiding your attempts to fog the subject of this thread.

You are welcome to start a thread about road safety or chickenpox if you wish.

I put it to you, PigletJohn, that you express anything you don't want to think about, or respond to, as 'fog'.

The reason I bring other causes of mortality into the argument is to test the logic and reasoning behind passionate views on measles, and the risks it poses; views that quite possibly aren't extended to other equally risky/even more risky threats. But you only seem to want to talk about measles a) in isolation, and b) in terms of your views. How can you make decisions on something like this without some analysis or comparison?

PigletJohn Tue 28-May-13 12:59:54

fascicle I put it to you, PigletJohn, that you express anything you don't want to think about, or respond to, as 'fog'

I disagree. Road safety and polio on a thread about measles are examples of fog.

bobbyperu Tue 28-May-13 13:44:04

Piglet, you did not cry 'fog' when earlier posters talked in general about the benefits of vaccination. Neither did you cry 'fog' when wearsmink went on about televisions, fire escapes and the like.

But OK, let's forget that the polio vaccine has been proven to paralyse healthy children. it's obviously completely irrelevant

So, would you mind focusing your mind on:

1. My questions regarding the Wales outbreak
2. The graph showing the decline in measles deaths in England before the use of the vaccine and my assessment of the possible interpretation

What are your thoughts?

Many thanks

B

Crumbledwalnuts Tue 28-May-13 21:00:19

Well I think we can agree that the best way to avoid unknown and unquantified vaccine adverse effects is to avoid vaccines altogether.

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