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What would you expect to be cheaper....(31 Posts)
I asked this on a thread but thought it may be more appropriate to start my own.
I was chatting to a friend last night who was asking me about my childcare and she asked what different things cost. She's thinking of going back to work after 15 years of being a sahm
I realised I didn't have a clue, I haven't used a nursery for 18 years a nanny for 13 years so my only recent experience is of two childminders.
So in order of least - most expensive what would order you expect it to be (outside of London) between childminder,nanny and nursery.
If your not bothered by sharing the actual cost I'm also quite interested in how often sibling discounts show up she has 3.and if ofstead rating makes a difference.
I pay mine £6 ph for each child no sibling discount. But I am about to stsrt with a different one as I've recently found out that the going rate in my area is only £3.70 ph each child and I'm not comfortable with my cm's rusk assessment did think I was being silly until I read her recent ofstead report and they highlighted the same things as an issue.
I guessed that in cost order it would be childminder then nanny then nursery (nursery being the most expensive) but I have no idea if I'm correct.
It depends on many factors though.
With one pre-school aged child I'd say Nursery or childminder, then nanny.
With two pre-school children the costs could level out across all three though nannies will be slightly more expensive due to employer costs.
With three it's a no brainer as a nanny would be cheaper than the other two.
Totally depends how many children, what hours, the nanny/CM's experience and what extras they charge etc.
If you have 1 child and need 40 hours care a week between 9am and 5pm, then a nursery is likely to be cheapest. But if you have 3 children and work shifts which include unsociable hours a live in nanny is going to be cheaper than a CM and a nursery won't be practical.
So it's a bit of a how long is a piece of string question, which is also the reply to 'how much does a nanny cost' because you can paying anything from £7 to £17 per hour.
She's looking at retail type jobs but part time about 20 hours no weekends but both term and school holidays. None of her kids are in school yet.
I'm not very up on tax credits and childcare costs but my understanding is you can't get any help with costs for a nanny.
Like others have said, it depends on so many factors. In my area a childminder is roughly £5/hour per child and sibling discounts don't really exist. That generally includes all meals and activities. Nurseries charge about £65/day per child regardless of how many hours you need, and again, that includes meals and activities. Nannies seem to be very roughly £10-12/hour but then you have employers costs, meals, activities, petrol, etc. on top. So around here, for three children under 5 a nanny would probably be the cheapest. The local after school club is only £9 from 3pm-6pm, so if some of the children are school age, then a combination of an after school club and chilminder may well be cheaper.
3 children under 4, then I would say:
childminder / nursery
Reason is that a nanny cost is not per child.
Things would be different if there were less children.
Once eldest child is at school there may be other options but would need to weigh up the inconvience of taking/collecting children from multiple places.
Tax credits can be used towards a nanny subject to the nanny being registered (England), approved (Wales) or recruited via a childcare agency (Scotland).
Problem though is that with whatever childcare option is selected childcare cost could be higher than salary retail pays, unless at management level.
20hrs Monday-Friday in retail?
Good luck with that one -those shifts are like rocking horse poo!
Tax credits info is in WTC2 and WTC5 documents on hmrc.gov.uk
Max claim I think is 70% of £300, so £210 per week. Meaning if childcare cost per week was £300 they would need to pay £90 of that.
At the hours she's hoping to get she would get the full 70% help towards childcare. Granted she would be paying a Hefty chunk of her wages for child care but basing it on nmw providing the 30% was not more than her actual income she would be better off in work by about £38 a week.
She does not have a landline or access to the net so as I do how do I go about finding registered nannies so I can let her use my phone and call some. (I've never even heard of registered nannies before today)
My brother owns a shop he likes he (in a purely friend way).
Nanny cheapest for 3. However finding a nanny willing to only work for 20 hrs will be hard. Most work 50-60hrs hence a good wage. Most wont be able to afford only 20hrs a week. Unless she can do 20hrs over 2 days leaving the other 3.
For 3 under 5, nanny would work out cheapest here, then childminder, then nursery.
Nanny around £10-£12 an hour
Childminder around £12-£15
Nursery around £15, though it would depend if the eldest got some free term-time hours
If she's going to hire a nanny, she will be an employer with all the responsibilities that entails - running payroll, sick pay, maternity leave, contracts, feeding the nanny during work hours etc. She may find using the services of a childminder is easier.
If she is still with her partner then she may not get any tax credits
If she is still with her partner then she may not get any tax credits
Her partner up sticks and ran away with a neighbour 2 months ago she does not even know where he is.
Hence the looking into making changes.
She may decide its not worth it,I don't know I just said I would try and help find info.
Ah in that case she should get max tax credits, there is an online calculator
I hate to say it though with 3 preschoolers she may be financially better off on benefits
I've worked out all her benefits for her and what % she would get towards childcare,I just did not know the requirements that the child care provider had to forfill to get that %. Tax credits and benefits I know it was just the childcare rules I didn't know.
She will be £38 pw better off in work providing the 30% she has to pay towards her childcare is not more than £115 if it is less it will be more than £38
She would have no travel costs to factor in either.
How many days/hours of childcare would she need?
If she only needs 20 hours of care then depending on the ages of the children a childminder could in theory be the cheapest. The rules on the 15 funded hours for 3-4 year olds have changed recently and now any childminder rated good or above should be able to offer them. As your friend is a single mum on low income she may well be eligible for the 2 year old funding too. It may be difficult to find a childminder with 3 available spaces though. Also, many may not want to only work a few hours a day as it will limit earning potential. It would be easier to find someone if she can condense the hours into as few days as possible.
It really depends on the availability of childcare in the area. If she's working in retail she might be doing shifts that change weekly and that will impact on the cost. In that case a nanny is the only form killed to be flexible enough to do a pay as you go type arrangement, especially if it's a nanny with their own child. The good news is tax credits can be used towards the full cost of employing a nanny, which includes the tax/NI payments and payroll.
Try nannyjob.co.uk, MN local, Netmums childcare boards, Gumtree and childcare.co.uk - look for profiles which say the nanny is OFSTED registered. On at least two of those you'll need to pay for contact details but it will be a fraction of the cost of using an agency.
as others said depends on many factors tho averagely for one child it would be cm/nursery/nanny
but when 2/3kids its more cost effective to have a nanny and then cm/nursery as are per child prob work out roughly the same
3 under for def a nanny, yes she needs to be ofsted reg to use vouchers/tax credits
20hrs over a week isnt a lot unless 2 ten hour days and nanny has another job
obv depending where you are sock but paying £12ph for childcare and a cm, it may be cheaper for you to employ a younger/less exp nanny for say £10/11gross - plus nanny comes to you so mornings are easier, just you to get ready and out of door, compared to you and 2 kids, a nanny will also do kids washing/cook meals etc
I'm now thinking that asking my brother to give her 2 full days a week as well as making sure they are always the same days, may be a really good move then getting her to think about a nanny possibly one with her own child
At a CM or nursery, she might be able to get 15 hrs free for any children over 3 and may be able to get free hours for children over 2, because of her circumstances.
younger/less exp nanny for say £10/11gross... surely you mean less than that. As an older, more experienced nanny that's my sort of salary
She would have no travel costs to factor in either - so does that mean work is very near home? Depending how the working hours occur, childcare could be needed for quite a lot more than the working hours.
If say travel to/from work was around 15 mins, working hours were 9am-1pm, then childcare would be needed say 8:30am-1:30pm to allow for a little bit of time for delays and getting ready to be on the shop floor (in retail jobs they may not pay from arrival time on site but at start of actual work - I have had that happen in leisure industry/theme park, been too long since I did retail to remember exact pay arrangements).
So 20 hours work, 9am-1pm (4 hours) over 5 days would need childcare of 8.30-1.30 for 5 days, so 25 hours. This is theoretical, the working hours are not known at this stage, or how long a gap will be needed between dropping off children/leaving home and starting work. This however does need to be thought about as it increases the cost of childcare.
Then you need to consider taxation.
If she was on £6.50 an hour say, then 20 hours per week that is £130
At that level she has no income tax or national insurance deductions.
Nanny with salary of £10 gross an hour working 25 hours per week, would get gross salary of £250 and there would be Employers NI of £14 per week, so cost to employer of £264 per week.
Payroll needs to be done, could be done by herself but outsourcing it will cost around £150 a year (price varies), so lets say £3 a week in admin cost to try to keep to whole numbers.
So total at this stage is £267. This amount is the figure that could be told to tax credits, as I believe they allow you to include Employers NI and payroll admin.
70% = £186.90 leaving £80.10
There there are other costs of having a nanny such as outings/activities. Toddler groups can be low cost, though some in my area are charging £2 or more. How will nanny get to activities, will that involve cost? If you gave it a budget of £10 a week would it be enough?
So yes, may end up with around £40 a week. However meanwhile nanny has been using heating and electric at the home which may not have been used as much if the children were not there.
It is going to be tight and any changes to tax credits may affect things.
She may be entitled to other benefits, so checking to see what she may qualify for once working could be useful. Turn2Us: Benefits Calculator
A similar calculation would need to be done for a childminder.
In my area childminders charge around £5 per child. Based on 25 hours, that gives £375 per week. That is £75 over the threshold amount for childcare element of working tax credits. So max claim amount would be £210 (70% of £300) leaving £165 per week to pay.
Their income if at £6.50 per hour, 20 hours is £130, so it can't be done.
So establishing likely costs of a childminder is necessary. Family Information Service in your friends area may be able to give details of average costs. They will be able to provide a list of childminders, whom your friend or yourself could contact to find out cost and availability - would they take 3 children under 5 for a few hours per day?
Location can make a difference with childminder costs, it can vary quite a bit. So establish typical cost, so you can either include it as a possible option if you were to find a childminder who would take 3 children under 5 (some may, especially if they are working with another childminder), or rule it out due to cost being too high.
Your brother owns a shop? In that case, giving her 2 full days per week would be better I feel, than say 4 hours per day Mon-Fri.
What salary would your brother pay... £6.50? All year round, so annual salary of say £6800?
>At a CM or nursery, she might be able to get 15 hrs free for any children over 3 and may be able to get free hours for children over 2, because of her circumstances.
Good point, though may be term time only, or split over year at less hours per week. I'm in Surrey where FEET - the funding for 2 year olds is 15 hours over 38 weeks, or 570 hours split over year.
The big picture needs to be looked at as well... her own self esteem from working, rather than claiming all benefits. Whilst working she may still get some benefits as her income will be low but it's a step on the ladder and once her children are older then she can increase hours. She has been a sahm for 15 years, she wants a change and it really should be better to work than to claim benefits.
I feel it is great that you and your brother are helping her Sockreturningpixie so I hope that you can come up with a solution that works.
She won't qualify for the 2 year funding because she will be getting wtc.
And thank you for that huge amount of info its really very helpful
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