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what's so off putting about employing a nanny with their own child??

(150 Posts)
glitternanny Mon 24-Jun-13 20:32:15

I am stuck - really stuck.... maybe you kind MNers can help me understand...

I'm job hunting due to a reduction in hours with my current families and I have my own 18 month old son. He's been coming to work with me since he was 12 weeks old - I had a very short maternity leave partyly due to my commitment to my job and he is very very easy to look after, always has been.

I returned to work to one job I had and a new job where their youngest was just 3 months older than my boy - which was very challenging, they are now the best of friends.

I love my jobs, my charges love my son - him being with me just makes my day busier and in some ways harder but I am always the professional - I am very committed to doing the same job i would do without him with him there with me and more often than not I completely over compensate having him with my by ignoring him and leaving him to his own devices while doing my job.

My charges and my bosses (who often work from home) can back this up completely.

Also my son isn't with me for 1/2 the week (approximately) as his dad works shifts and when he's off my son stays with him.

I've never taken a drop in salary, I've rarely taken time off because of my boy and have his dad and grandparents/friends on standby if I need to.

SO WHY wont you mums consider someone like me?

I appreciate you are paying for your children to be looked after, but I am doing that - I'm still the nanny I am without him - I'm just busier when he's there, he's not with me all of the time, he's just part of the package.

OR mums want a salary reduction of 50% (my latest interview where the family totally loved me but want me for 1/2 my current rate even when he's only with me half the time I'm there) yes I'm lucky to have my boy there but this isn't a nannyshare, I am still working by your rules/requests/routine/preferences etc - I don't get to do my own thing like I would if I were a SAHM

I'm now trying to find childcare for my son so I can carry on working, which given that I'm leaving my house every morning at 6:20 and I'm not home until 6:30 (and that's only if my employers trains are on time etc) its really hard.

What can I do to make myself more employable? To get parents to at least meet me so I can get them to love me rather than seeing I come with my own child and am instantly dismissed.

I'm a great person, I am excellent at my job my charges love me and my bosses give me excellent references, I'm reliable committed and professional.

tungthai Mon 24-Jun-13 21:02:56

I think the point of employing a nanny is so that you can have bespoke childcare that meets the needs of your family. If the nanny has her own child then of course that child's needs have to be taken into account if that child is ill then the nanny will require time off, if that child is having a bad day and is too tetchy for a walk in the woods everyone stays at home. There is also the additional wear and tear in the home.

Sometimes you may feel that you you would prefer your child to be with other children in a home from home environment. A childminder can provide this setup at a lower cost.

tungthai Mon 24-Jun-13 21:03:49

Have you considered setting up as a childminder?

ilovemountains Mon 24-Jun-13 21:08:20

My children might not like your child, or want to share their toys in their own house. I'd need another high chair. And another car seat. Much easier with a nanny without their own child.

glitternanny Mon 24-Jun-13 21:14:28

Very valid points

We do what we are planning to do whether my child wants to or not he doesn't get a choice.

He comes fully equipped with his own toys (which I means he doesn't have to use the ones at work - tho it is good for children to learn to share their space/toys but valid point I agree) I have bought a double buggy I have a portable highchair and I have a travel cot. I have spare car seats of my own and use my own car for work.

At the end of the day when I leave nothing remains in my work houses of my sons - there isn't a big pile of extra stuff clogging up a space unless my boss has approved it can stay there (occasionally I leave my travel cot at work) and which case its hidden away out of sight and inconvenience.

No sadly I can't childmind due to where I live it wouldn't be appealing to families.

Amazinggg Mon 24-Jun-13 21:21:10

If I was employing a nanny, I would be paying to have someone whose 100% care and attention was on my child. If I wanted a group childcare environment I'd go for a childminder. As a nanny, you're being welcomed into someone's home, interviewed, chosen carefully and trusted - and paid accordingly. I wouldn't do all that and then have a toddler in tow! Really you should think of it as a job where it's inappropriate to bring your own child. You say he's easy to look after - still, he's your priority and not my own children. You do sound like childminding would be a better set up for you. Are you in the UK?

bbcessex Mon 24-Jun-13 21:23:18

Sorry you are finding it tough glitternanny , it sounds like you are very committed and reliable nanny.

I've had two NWOC and I have had great experiences with both. I have never minded having additional high chair / a few toys kept in a cupboard etc.. all part and parcel of having kids anyway I think.

The only thing I would say is that I have only ever needed before & after school nannies, so I've been offering 'unpopular hours' of around 25 - 28 hours a week - not that enticing to a nanny who wants full time, so NWOC were pretty much the demographic who applied.

If I'd have been offering full time hours, and had the option of an equally great nanny with no other commitments, I'd have possibly gone down that route. As it was, I didn't have that option.

Maybe you need to look at doing that? ie - look for parents who don't have that much choice (sorry to be so blunt, I don't mean that as it sounds!). Perhaps 2 jobs with different families to make up the hours?

Otherwise, I think you have to make yourself marketable, perhaps by a reduction in salary. Although I think that Parent who offered you 50% less was taking the piss hugely - hope you told them where to put their 50%!!!!

Amazinggg Mon 24-Jun-13 21:35:33

How much are nannies compared to childminders?

glitternanny Mon 24-Jun-13 21:38:34

Thanks

In the area I work in childminders charge £6ph per child - I charge £10 for as many children as you want.

Sadly I can't child mind

And unfortunately working before and after school doesn't give me enough money to pay my bills.

Maybe I'm hoping for the impossible.

tungthai Mon 24-Jun-13 21:39:23

I am sure you do put your charges first but that would make me feel guilty. I wouldn't want your child to be treated second best.

I may be looking for a nanny within the next couple of years. I wouldn't discount a nanny with her own child as the hours I will require are not that attractive but it wouldn't be my ideal scenario. I would feel bad that your pre schooler is having to stand around in the cold watching a football match when they would rather be at home with the play dough .

BettyYeti Mon 24-Jun-13 21:40:21

We had a nanny who had a baby while she worked for us. She also returned from maternity leave quickly and worked for us, bringing her child a lot of the time, for 2 more years. She had been our nanny for 3 years before then and we had absolute confidence that the standard of care of our children would not fall.My DCs are school age, so do not need as much active attention. It worked ok most of the time, but we did have some issues, particularly once her DC got to the age yours is and needed full on attention - eg we do have some damage to our furniture even though our nanny watched her child lie a hawk, which in turn meant she could not always give our children the little attention they needed. I do not think I woud repeat the experience if I had other options unless there was a significant cost benefit, particularly with a nanny I did not already know and have confidence in. I think you will have to accept a pay cut, but not 50 per cent, maybe 25.

Blu Mon 24-Jun-13 21:44:59

We had a Nanny who had her own child and it worked brilliantly.
her child was the same age, so it meant that food, activities, naps etc could all be co-ordinated, and they did become excellent friends.

We did pay her about a third less than the going rate. This is what she asked, and tbh it seems fair. We were paying for childcare and in effect she was also carrying out her own childcare rather than paying someone else. She was busier, our DC got shared attention. Also, because she had her own child, there were times when he was ill or they both caught each other's illnesses and it caused complication occasionally.

Her child ate our food but she brought her own nappies for her child.

bbcessex Mon 24-Jun-13 21:48:17

I would choose a NWOC that I bonded with over a Nanny Without Own Child who was just okay. It's also a positive having a mum looking after your own children - there is an extra perspective that you get when you have a children/ren of your own (in my experience anyway).

I do think you'd have to offer a slight reduction in salary though (unless returning to an existing job after maternity leave), because there are added issues / challenges / things to think about.

I'd emphasise your experience, and understanding from a 'parent's perspective'.

Karoleann Mon 24-Jun-13 21:48:29

You have to spend some of the time looking after your own child - you can't completely ignore him, therefore your are less able to look after your employers children, or do nursery duties than you otherwise would be.
18 month old children do need a lot of looking after. Its only fair you should be taking a drop in salary.

glitternanny Mon 24-Jun-13 21:49:04

I also agree I am very lucky to bring my own boy to work it certainly is not something I take for granted.

I agree about the childminder v nanny aspect but with a lot of childminders their day is centred around the needs of all her children, they spend a large proportion of the day doing school/nursery runs sometimes to several different locations at several points during the day - following the requests of all her parents.

I'm still doing the job my employer wants me to do, yes sometimes with the distraction of my son, but I follow your rules/routine and you still get all of the other benefits of a nanny to boot like nursery duties being done, family washing, tidy kitchen, not worrying about milk/bread in the kitchen and even sometimes dinner waiting for you at the end of the day.

I'm not trying to be argumentative and what you have offered me as your points of view are very much appreciated.

CouthyMow Mon 24-Jun-13 21:49:10

I'll be honest. If I want a situation where my toddler is not the 100% focus of his Carer's attention, I will put him in a Nursery or find a Childminder. If I hire a Nanny, then I expect 100% of the focus to be on MY child. I'm not going to pay a Nanny wage if I'm not getting that.

<<Shrug>>

I would NEVER hire a Nanny with their own DC, sorry.

nulgirl Mon 24-Jun-13 21:52:17

From my perspective, I've got 2 kids so have had a toddler and an older child. I know that the older child suffers from lack of attention due to the younger and that the younger though adorable, can be annoying/ ruin games/ break toys etc. If I am paying for someone to look after my children I don't want them to have to tolerate an 18 month old child every day (or even half the week) in their own house. I have just had my god sons who are 18 months over and have had to toddler-proof and move my ds collection of complex Lego models. I've done the toddler bit twice and wouldn't particularly want another in my house for several days a week.

I sound like such an old grouch don't I but these may be some of the things that prospective employers are thinking.

ilovemountains Mon 24-Jun-13 21:53:39

Most Childminders in my area don't do school runs. Though perhaps they do in your area.

OutragedFromLeeds Mon 24-Jun-13 21:57:14

A NWOC situation is only really worthwhile to families where there is a financial saving. 50% is a joke, but I think you need to offer at least 10% off going rates to make yourself appealing.

Blondeshavemorefun Mon 24-Jun-13 22:57:58

I know you are struggling to find a job sad

You were very lucky to stay on same money taking ds with you - not many families will do that even in my area

50% paycut is silly but do think you need to look at 20% so £8 nett

Maybe look at another 2/3 day job rather then 5 days

Compared to other nwoc you do offer more flexibility as half the week dad has him

Not sure what to suggest tbh apart from pay cut or travel further but that also means out of the house for longer which is tough on both of you

Some employed happy to have nwoc and pay less - others want the whole 100% attention on their dc

LePetitPrince Mon 24-Jun-13 23:07:43

I agree with bbcessex - you would be a perfect after-school nanny but as you say, the hours aren't attractive. If a family have older children who need help with homework or music practice, that might be tricky with a toddler. A family with younger children may work better until such point that your child needs to be dropped to a different nursery/activity and then it becomes very hard. I think you need to expect 10% less possibly.

K8Middleton Mon 24-Jun-13 23:08:23

I have had a nanny share and paid less. I would expect to pay less if I was sharing my nanny with her own child either. I would not pay £10 an hour for a nanny with her child too. I would expect to reduce by 25-30%

You may find that due to tax thresholds you're not actually as worse off as 25-30% in real terms? It may be more like 18-25% but without the figures I'm just making a guess.

Judyandherdreamofhorses Tue 25-Jun-13 05:30:01

I'm actively looking for a nanny with own child. In our circumstances, I think it would be just right. It's part time - 5 mornings. DD is at preschool for 3 days, so it would be drop off for her then care of 1 year old DS. He's used to having his sister around so would like another child about. He has a decent nap, so the nanny would be able to play solely with her own child then. I don't need household or other duties doing.

I would be looking for her to have a child older than DS though.

Mimishimi Tue 25-Jun-13 07:13:22

I wouldn't because presumably I'd be hiring a nanny to look after my children, not theirs as well. Otherwise I would go with a CM. Sorry.

Trunchbull Tue 25-Jun-13 07:21:42

I have worked as an NWOC for 4 years, since my DD was 6 months old. I had two lovely jobs, one doing flexible hours with two older girls (their Mum was doing a nursing degree so the hours changed weekly) and the second was an afterschool job. Both were tricky hours which didn't appeal to nannies without children.

When she was smaller it was much easier to find jobs. Now she is at FT school I am struggling to find anything I can fit within/ around her hours. The only thing I can potentially do is find a steady, well paid 3 day job, put her with a childminder and suck it up. It's either that or childmind, or move out of the field completely. It's really hard, unfortunately it gets harder the older your own DC gets.

Aetae Tue 25-Jun-13 07:23:12

Regardless of how careful you are, you can't provide the same service as a nanny with no children - you have an extra child to look after. Just as I am suspicious of people in my office who "work from home" when they have an ill child because I don't think they're doing a full day of work, I would doubt whether you can do everything a nanny without a child does to the same level of care and attention.

A 50% drop in pay seems harsh though. As others said, a smaller discount should be enough.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 07:25:55

Harshly but succinctly....which one would you run into a burning building first for?

That's why.

(and it's not a criticism at all, because we would all do the same!)

I hope you manage to sort something out, I guess you need to be looking for a situation like the one described by Judy upthread.

glitternanny Tue 25-Jun-13 07:28:24

id happily drop my salary but not by 50%

I can't really travel further to work I already travel nearly 50 miles a day

im completely flexibly on my days.

glitternanny Tue 25-Jun-13 08:24:58

fwiw if a family have more than one child a nanny is faced with the 'which child do I save from a burning building' as are childminders and nurseries.

TanglednotTamed Tue 25-Jun-13 08:32:28

I wouldn't employ a nanny with a DC - have said no to interviewing one in the past. I have 3 small children, and consider that taxing enough on a nanny. Adding a fourth would only dilute attention for each child even further. Plus, I only choose a nanny who is happy to walk everywhere with the children (as I do) rather than use a car - having an extra baby (two of mine still in pushchair) would be difficult. There is a three-times-a-day school run to do (nursery/school) which means plenty of walking.

I sympathise with you, but a nanny is expensive, and most people choose that option, as others have said, because they want care totally focused around their children/lifestyle/timetable.

Judyandherdreamofhorses Tue 25-Jun-13 09:01:38

I hope you find something OP (where are you, incidentally?). I really see that having your own child could be an asset. I want my baby to have another child to play with. I find looking after the baby and his sister together easier and more fun than just one, so you probably would too. I'd look at your relationship with your child, how you interact and so on, and use that to help make a judgement.

sweetsummerlove Tue 25-Jun-13 09:04:14

I take my dc with me (2) and have been in the job around 9 months now. It was alot of work to begin with, but now my charge, who is the same age and my dc get on wonderfully. I work part time and have recently taken on another family with two children so am actually working full time right now. It took me five months to find my first btwm nanny position though and I earn £8.50 gross. So its no where near what others get but without childcare costs it equates to 1k pm 3 days a week, and around 1600pm full time (55hrs) (im not in London )

I am always soo worried about finding the next job when the other ends. My close nanny friend who has 16years experience struggled to find a job when her dd arrived. I was truly shocked and I am very aware how much harder it'll be the older she gets.

I do understand why families wouldn't want a nanny with their own but I wish more would be more open to it- the benefits my dc and my charges get from that constant social interaction is invaluable. I don't personally think you can liken it to a CM setting- they can be very stretched with ratios and all that paperwork, and a nurseries are just a stretched with higher ratios and 20-30 children in a room at a time. I have three in my care max inc my own and its totally manageable and they have a wonderful time.. I don't feel that the care I provide is compromised by having my own.. I have great relationships with both parents and children. I have been lucky that so far, we have been working with families that are relaxed and welcome us both as part of the family. x

BrianTheMole Tue 25-Jun-13 09:17:43

I wouldn't pay the full amount for a nanny to bring a child to my house and look after them alongside mine. Nannies aren't cheap anyway, and If I'm paying full wages then I would expect my children to get full attention. I'd probably pay two thirds but no more. But if I'm going down the nanny route then really I'm looking for someone who can focus on my children, as thats what I am paying for. When I was looking for nannies there was one that wanted £12 an hour, and bring her baby to work with her too. I thought that was pretty cheeky to ask so much personally.

Exhaustipated Tue 25-Jun-13 09:17:55

It's something I would definitely consider, but I would definitely expect to pay less than for a nanny without own child.

duchesse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:24:28

However good you are at your job, if you have your own child with you your attention will be divided. Your employers will NOT be getting your full attention for their child(ren). If there were a fire, your child would almost certainly take precedence over theirs if you had to choose whom to save. They do not know how fair you are in your handling of all the children together when they are not there. They do not know how demanding or otherwise your son is with your time (quite natural that if his mum is there he should expect attention from her). However cheerful and laid back he is, the parents are still getting a nanny share rather than a full-time nanny and you are effectively getting free childcare at their expense. People's salaries are down or stagnant anyway, there's not a spare penny in most families.

There are no other jobs in this country where people would expect to be able to take their children to work with them and still get paid full salary.

HappyAsEyeAm Tue 25-Jun-13 09:29:48

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childminders_nannies_au_pairs_etc/1711729-Nanny-With-Own-Child-Employers-of-NWOC-please-talk-to-me-about-your-experiences-and-opinions

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childminders_nannies_au_pairs_etc/1711399-Reduction-in-nannys-hourly-rate-if-she-brings-her-own-child

I hope the links work.

We employ a lovely nanny to look after our DSs (one is 5yo, the other is 1yo) and she is pregnant. I know that she is hoping to return to work (she hasn't even gone on maternity leave yet) when her baby is 6 months old. Our children will be 6 yo and 2yo then. I posted on MN a few months ago to ask for experiences of NWOC and rates.

I hope you find the replies helpful.

I haven't decided yet whether we would like our nanny to return with her own child after maternity leave. We are open minded about it, but I can see pros and cons. And who knows, she may decide its not for her in the end, anyway. We will all just wait and see!

Blu Tue 25-Jun-13 09:36:19

50% of my salary went on childcare....

A third off the usual rate seemed about right.

Blu Tue 25-Jun-13 09:36:45

Actually, way more than 50%.

ActionLog Tue 25-Jun-13 10:00:40

I would be very reluctant to hire a nanny with own child unless my role were very hard to fill or there were special circumstances that meant that I wanted a playmate for a child. Don't know where you are in the country but when I recently recruited for a nanny there were lots of good applicants as there didn't seem to be that many nany jobs around. Given I'd view a NWOC as a negative then no reason I'd want to look in that pool with many quality alternatives available.

I certainly wouldn't pay £10 per hour (I assume you mean net which nannies seem to do) for a new NWOC. I may be more flexible if an existing nanny had a baby but for a new hire I'd be hard to get off a no.

grabaspoon Tue 25-Jun-13 10:07:11

I agree that you need to factor how much it would cost to have some one to care for your child when you were at work then think of reducing your salary slightly.

BerkshireMum Tue 25-Jun-13 12:07:11

Just wanted to sympathise. I employed a nanny who had her own child when my daughter was 12 months old. She stayed through the birth or my son, for a total of four years. We all loved her and her daughter and are still in touch now. It was challenging once they started (different) schools but we made it work because she was great. Really hope you find the right family soon.

OutragedFromLeeds Tue 25-Jun-13 13:16:18

I think some people have a bit of a mental block about nwoc arrangements. The attitude that 'I want 100% of a nannies attention or a childminder' really fails to register the benefits of having what is essentially a half-way house between a nanny and childminder. A NWOC arrangement still provides many of the benefits of a nanny. The price should be reduced to reflect that the family will not get ALL the benefits of a nanny.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Tue 25-Jun-13 18:30:17

Nannies are just too expensive at full on market rates to offer the perk of bringing along their own child. Too many potential complications and compromises relative to the £500+ per week cost.

I would be willing to interview someone who offered a discount; agree 50% is ridiculous, that would barely be minimum wage on my rough and ready reckonings.

Stase Tue 25-Jun-13 18:40:40

I'm really surprised so many people aren't keen. If we needed a nanny again, I'd look for one with their own child.
We have three children, two boys at school and a daughter at home, and our nanny had a son a couple of months older than her, both under two. I did the morning school run after she and son arrived, and she did the pick up with two in a double buggy and the boys on foot. It was lovely to know that DD had someone her own age to play with, and it meant that the nanny had time for household stuff while they entertained each other. Win-win I say!
She charged £8/hr before tax, etc.

ReetPetit Tue 25-Jun-13 19:04:59

why can't you childmind op? what's so unappealing about where you live? (out of curiosity!)

Blondeshavemorefun Tue 25-Jun-13 19:08:50

reet- think op lives in a flat/mashionette with steep steps and no garden - or something like that i know her in real world and she is a fab nanny, just needs a nice family to give her a chance

weirdly enough there are lots of famillies/jobs in my area that will happily accept nwoc - often see ads saying that

move near me grin be nice to see you and ds more smile

ReetPetit Tue 25-Jun-13 19:26:48

don't let living in a flat put you off op! where i live (nw london) most cms do and there is no shortage of work. ofsted have no objection either. it might be the way to go until your ds starts nursery/school...

Tallulaxx Tue 25-Jun-13 21:04:00

I'm a full time NWOC to two families and it works brilliantly all the children are close in age and they all play together. Both were actively seeking a nwoc so there is hope out there. I would hate to hire a nanny to look after one child how lonely for that child what better than a play friend.

I get paid 8ph nett I'm in London and the going rate is 10ph nett but I have more than enough to live on smile

Patiencedeficit Tue 25-Jun-13 21:06:19

Hi glitternanny, don't lose faith in finding something. I have a great nanny who has just started working full time for us & she has her own child. So far she has proved reliable, organised and her own child is great company for my 2. I think if the right family comes along they won't let your own child stand in the way of hiring you. Just be open & honest - it's all you can do. Good luck.

skaen Tue 25-Jun-13 22:12:27

I have employed a NWOC for the last 3 years. Her youngest was the same age as my oldest. She has a slightly lower pay rate (about 20% if you're talking net) and my experience has only been positive.

Our nanny has coped brilliantly with the four children, although I think it has really helped that her children have been at school/ pre-school but locally so DS gets plenty of 1:1 interaction but also a lot of playing with slightly older children.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Harshly but succinctly....which one would you run into a burning building first for?

Let's say you have more than one child of your own, which one would you run into the burning building first for? wink

ClipClap Wed 26-Jun-13 05:41:10

It might be worth re-thinking about how you talk about looking after DC whilst working. A few things in your posts would ring alarm bells for me - ie would I want a nanny who was willing to largely ignore their own child?

zirca Wed 26-Jun-13 05:56:42

To be blunt, the rest of us cannot take our children to work, and have to pay for childcare. Why should you be any different? At least accept a drop in salary - everyone else does when they work and have children, because they have to pay for childcare! Offering your services for less, might make families more inclined to accept the sharing of them that you having your own child with you will involve. Families who otherwise might opt for nursery or childminder, might also then be able to afford you, and you might get work that way too.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Wed 26-Jun-13 07:13:52

Blogging: I don't.

I did it on purpose. wink

sweetsummerlove Wed 26-Jun-13 07:26:00

as a ground rule I never take my dd to first interviews. I woo the family, then suggest they call me back to meet her if they like me.

im so sad at the negative reviews towards nanny's with their own. As I said in my previous post, nanny's are not comparable to a cm or nursery just because they have their own, the work load is comparatively different- Also, we come to your home and take over from the get go, so you can get ready for work in peace, no sorting breakfast or getting them dressed...yet you'd rather drive to a cm and do a drop off to avoid having a perfectly capable nanny simply because they offer the benefit of a playmate.

I'll say this- no matter how good of a parent or childcare provider you are, you simply can never offer the SAME level of companionship a child can offer another child. I think im pretty good at my job, but watching my dd play with my charges, I can see how much fun the friendship provides.

HappyAsEyeAm Wed 26-Jun-13 08:59:41

Coming back to this thread, I think the biggest thing for me would be the ages of my DC and the age of your DS.

I have a 5 and a half year old, and a just turned one year old. And you have a one and a half year old.

I think that if you were to be our nanny (just a hypothetical as we have our own pregnant nanny), I would be concerned as to the activities you could do with my 5 year old during the school holidays.

I wouldn't be at all concerned about my 1 year old, as he and your DS would get on great, be playing with the same types of toys, be at the same babyproofing stage, enjoy the same kinds of games and toys and activities etc. And if we were very lucky, they may even nap at the same time.

I wouldn't be at all concerned about term time, as my view would be that as I only work three (long) days a week, and I am nearly always home for bathtime and bedtime and doing DS's homework which is only reading with him at this stage, you would only be having to spread yourself between three children between getting home from school and me getting home from work which is 2 1/2 hours. And if I wanted DS to do after school activities, I would try and arrange for these to happen either at school (so a later pick up time) or on my non working days.

My concern would be school holidays. The type of things that a 5 and a half year old would want to do, and the length of time that would take, varies to what two one year olds would be willing to do. I think my 5yo DS1 would be compromising massively, and that isn't why I employ a nanny.

Other issues (which we might be able to sort out fine) would be whether you would come into work when your child was sick, whether you would come into work when my DC were sick, whether you woudl be able to work any evenings (with notice) etc. I see that you have the equipment (double buggy, high chair, travel cot etc sorted.

I would also expect to pay you less than I would a nanny who desnt have the limitations, distractions and demands on her that her own chld would bring.

If I had school age children, and wanted to employ a nanny for whole days so that I knew that I had sick days and school holidays covered (DS's school has long holidays), then I might well think of employing you, as you sounds very willing to muck in round the house with things to do with the children and maybe return some parcels to the post office and that kind of thing (and I would just kiss you if you ever made me dinner), but the reduction in salary would be a deal breaker for me.

RikeBider Wed 26-Jun-13 10:59:16

What it comes down to is: - if you are recruiting for a nice nanny job, full time hours, straightforward role etc and have loads of candidates to choose from, you will almost always go for a nanny without a child than the added complication of one with a child.

So, to make yourself more appealing and compensate for bringing your son with you, you either need to be cheaper, or you need to cover difficult to recruit for hours/roles.

You might be a complete bargain for someone with a child the same age as yours who wants to recruit a top nanny but can only offer 75% of market rates - if their choice is you WITH child or an inexperienced/newly qualified/poor English/former au pair they will go for you.

becscertainstar Wed 26-Jun-13 11:15:16

I'm not looking for a nanny right now, but I've considered a nanny who had a young child before. DS is an only so in some ways I'd see it as an advantage, especially if they were tiny - a baby or toddler that DS could play with and entertain. The only things that would worry me would be wear and tear on our home and 'toddlerproofing' - now that DS is older our home isn't toddlerproof and I'd worry about the responsibility of that. And for wear and tear - we have a white minimalist apartment... Great for us and our school-age DS, but.... I would expect to pay less - probably 25% or so less.

Wishihadabs Wed 26-Jun-13 11:30:56

Well I was offered a nanny with own child when mine were 1 &3 the nannies's child was 18m (with no reduction in rate, it was through an agency) I went with another nanny purely because I wouldn't have fancied 3 under 5 and thought they wouldn't have got the tlc they needed.

Now they are at school and we have a nanny/housekeeper, she has a pre-school child who she sometimes brings to work, I think it's great for all of them to play together while she cooks, just like another sibling for them. Maybe look at a job with older dcs ?

Dozer Wed 26-Jun-13 17:28:56

Your refusal to consider a cut in salary is probably a key reason: 50% would be way too much and take you below minimum wage, but if you can't find a job then you are probably pricing your rates too highly for the market.

Some people might be worried that you will have another DC.

glitternanny Wed 26-Jun-13 18:58:17

annoyingly the message I wrote earlier didnt post

let me make it clear I WILL consider and offer and expect to reduce my salary because of my son.

50% is an insult and takes me below minimum wage £175 for a 44 hour week!

HiccupHaddockHorrendous Wed 26-Jun-13 20:23:05

I'm also a little surprised by some of the replies and negative feelings toward nwoc.

I agree with a PP about it getting harder the older your own dc gets. Especially when they get to school age.

My DS was 3 when I finally gave up on nannying and registered as a CM. At that point, we lived in a one bed, first floor flat with no outside space (apart from some of the best parks in london within 1 mile wink).

As a CM, my earnings far exceed what I would have earned as a nanny on top pay. Infact, I earn more now, far away from London, than I ever would as a nanny in London.

I know it's not all about the money and sometimes it would be nice to only have one set of parents to work with but CMing is working very well for DS and I.

Also, a pp mentioned the friendship between dc and I just wanted to add that all of my mindees love my DS much more than they love me grin...he is the star attraction!!

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved Wed 26-Jun-13 21:39:59

I wonder if you can call yourself something different or really play up the benefits? I do see how having a playmate would be really nice, and also if you were a trusted 'almost family member' type of nanny, that it would be lovely. But it's a difficult one to sell...

You do sound lovely though, and I hope you manage to show people why it's a good idea.

From my perspective:

I definitely fall into the thinking that nanny = sole attention, therefore nanny with child = diluted and conflicted attention.i feel that the job by definition demands that you put the needs of my child first, but if you do that, it's unfair on your own child, and what kind of person does that anyway? Not someone who I'd want caring for my child! So damned if you do, damned if you don't really...

You need to address this up front and have a really good way of showing this needn't be the case - I'm not sure how you'd do this though?

You are also fighting against the recruitment process and difficulty in finding a good nanny in a sea of people all looking for work.

Having read some applications and cvs of nannies who want to bring their child, I haven't warmed to them at all (just the few I've seen, not saying its a rule or anything!)

The applications either sound like someone who wants to look after their child And get paid for it, cheeky and unprofessional.... At best misguided and unrealistic! Or someone who I'd have to take a massive leap of faith with, that she didn't neglect my Ds in favour of her child. It's hard enough to wade through the 100s of cvs and try and find the very few amazing nannies in there, without adding another complication & reason for concern.

Blu Thu 27-Jun-13 11:32:26

It's not 'an insult', it's a different way of thinking about it - and when negotiating it helps to have looked at things from the other pov.

The minimum wage is GROSS of tax - are you calculating your wage net of tax?

Also, that is your wage plus all your childcare costs paid for - many many people end up with a level below the living wage once their tax and chilcare costs are deducted!

I'm really not trying to undermine or diss nannies, I have lots of respect for nannies. It's a job with long hours and a big responsibility, and no great prospects of huge promotions and salary increases - but to get what you want, think how to negotiate within the market.

Many people employing a nanny will have their first or only child, and will be feeling nervous about the pfb fitting in with another child as they would have to with a sibling. It may be pfb, but it's the reality. Families with more kids will maybe find an extra child too much.

We interviewed 2 nannies woc.
1 had an older child of about 9 I think, who would need to be at our house after school, and she needed to do the school run. In our car. And offered no reduction in wages. The most she said about her own child was that 'it had never been a problem' and he 'was used to it'.

The other had a baby the same age, she said that as her child was with her 24/7 and she didn't anticpate having another child she welcomed the idea of looking after another alongside him because it would help him to grow up understanding sharing and being alongside other children, and for that reason she would not feel inclined to prioritise him over our child. She was studying child development and she had thought out some strategies for dealing with any potential jealousy about her child seeing her care for another toddler, and about how not to make our DS feel jealous because her child was with his Mummy and ours wasn't. She had all the solutions worked out about what to do in the event of her child's illness, or our child's illness, and she said that as she would be arriving at work in her car with her child's car seat, she would use her car for trips if we could provide a portable seat for her to use. She had reduced her daily rate by about 25%-30%.

Guess who we employed?

Good luck - we found our childcare through SimplyChildcare.

78bunion Thu 27-Jun-13 11:58:53

Ours had her baby and brought it - had worked for us for a few years before. Then another and then left when pregnant with the 3rd. So yes we have done it but it is very very hard and very different from a nanny without a child. Hers were younger so needed all the attention. It was like we were paying her to be allowed to bring up her child in a much nicer house and environment than she otherwise would have. The oldestof ours was at school (just) and the second at morning nursery but in school holidays and after school instead of 3/5/7 year old fun, it was those ages (ours) plus her 18 month old and baby - i.e most attention has to be on her younger two. Not her fault just how younger ones are.

In other words there are no advantages to her children being there. It feels like cuckoos in the nest - her family taking over your own home, sovereign territory. In a way it feels like a losing of power for the employer. Also her children bring germs into the home. Much much more mess (and ours was not great at sorting it out). Also with 5 rather than 3 it made it heard for her to drive them around. Just terribly hard all round even when she just brought the first one. Bringing 3 under 4 would have been even harder but it she did leave at that stage.

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Thu 27-Jun-13 12:07:08

Glitternanny - I'm sorry you are having such a hard time finding another job/more hours. It is a tough market out there for all nannies at the moment (well, in the areas I know anyway).

If I was looking at hiring a nanny, a nanny with OC wouldn't be my first choice - for all the reasons others have mentioned. It is just more complicated (logistics/illness/less focus/less ability to do certain activities etc) so, yes, I would expect to pay less (which I know you are prepared to do!!) - but you need to make this very clear from the outset.

However, this would only make me re-think the option of a NWOC if money was an issue for me in the first place (if I wanted a nanny but couldn't quite afford one) as I would prefer that over a childminder - but if I could afford a nanny without OC at the going rate I'd do that.

One thing (and someone else mentioned it too) that I think you need to look at is how you are conveying how our child fits in. Some parents would want you to put their children first and have yours take a 'back seat' (and I think they probably wouldn't be great to work for!) but I suspect there are a lot of parents who would feel (as I would) that the way you have worded that seems a bit 'cold' and it would actually put me off you (if I didn't know you from MN!). It would make me feel like if you could do that to your son, you might not be very warm & affectionate with mine - that you'd be quite detached. On top of that, I wouldn't want a toddler consistently being put last so my kids were put first, that would not sit well with me. I would want you to do what a parent would do if all the children were theirs - attend to the one with the greater need at that time - mine or yours.

I'm not sure I have explained that terribly well!!

ghislaine Thu 27-Jun-13 13:36:20

One big red flag for me was that the agency explained that I could be liable for any accidents or injuries suffered by the nanny's child while in our house and would need insurance to cover the cost of being sued by the nanny for that. To be honest, that was a risk I didn't fancy taking on, so we went for the nanny without child option.

78bunion Fri 28-Jun-13 09:18:04

I agree with Chippings point which was a bit like mine - I wanted and know it was right that the brand new baby and toddler of our long standing nanny wuld be dealt with first and in practice that means 90% of the time apart from when she was picking up our older ones from school and collecting them. No parent would consistently put their baby and toddler second to huge great 3/5/7 year olds. There was no actual neglect of ours but it was a very different set up from when she just looked after our 3. She stayed 10 years in all in part because we accommodated her 2 children but it was not ideal. We did not reduce her wages either although there might have been a couple of years without pay rises particularly when our youngest was at morning nursery in term time.

minipie Fri 28-Jun-13 22:12:37

I considered a NWOC (the child was the same age as mine) but decided against it for the following reasons:

- her child was clearly a very easy child. My concern was that this would lead to my child seeming "difficult" or even "a pain" in comparison. (of course, if her child was a difficult child, this would be an even bigger problem...!)
- I may be wrong about this but I think a NWOC would be less likely to bond as closely with their charges as a nanny with no children.
- I was concerned that a NWOC would have a second child quite swiftly, meaning I would have to find new childcare. yes, I know this is not a legal reason not to employ someone, however...
- Part of my reason to employ a nanny is for some flexibility in hours (should i get stuck at work) and babysitting possibilities, this would be much more difficult for a NWOC.

WetGrass Fri 28-Jun-13 22:40:07

It goes both ways. I offered my nanny job to two NWOC - & they declined me based on

1) she didn't think my kids would click with hers
2) she couldn't re-arrange some prior DC commitments.

I felt a bit under-appreciated - tbh - because I had volunteered a lot of flexibility/freedom to allow them to build a mutually beneficial work pattern. It is obviously trickier to work with DC - and needs compromise - but they shouldn't have really wasted my time if they hadn't fully thought it through. It put me off NWOC as demanding exceptional qualities from the candidate.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 28-Jun-13 23:40:33

minipie the last three things in your list are not issues with a NWOC arrangement, but of employing a mother. Luckily for you your boss isn't as sexist as you are. What a horrible attitude. Please tell me you don't have daughters?

minipie Sat 29-Jun-13 09:48:01

Outraged I wouldn't expect to be employed by my boss if my children impacted on my suitability for the job.

re my point 4 - If a candidate can't offer the flexibility I need - for any reason, whether it is children or a different reason, then she (or he) simply doesn't fit the job criteria. This is not sexism.

re my point 3 - Any nanny, unless past the menopause, could have a child. I am not saying I would not employ someone of child bearing age. But in this case, the NWOC specifically mentioned that her OH was keen for another child soon, and also that she had found it hard to do her previous job while pregnant because of SPD. So it seemed to me quite likely that if I hired her, she could quite soon be physically unable to do the job, followed by a period of leave.

Perhaps it is sexist for me to be put off by this - and as I say, I realise it's probably not legal, since employers are supposed to ignore all pregnancy related reasons when employing. But realistically I suspect most nanny employers would be similarly put off. I am trying to be honest and help the OP understand what might be worrying employers.

Your post is IMO unnecessarily attacking and rude. If you want to point out (what you believe to be) sexism, you can do so without being aggressive.

78bunion Sat 29-Jun-13 10:11:19

It's just common sense. We handled 2 maternity leaves with that nanny -she took about 4 - 6 weeks off which was accommodating of her too. However it was difficult. It is not like an office worker going on leave. You are severing a bond. you are disrupting the emotional life of a child. You are destroying routines and security.

OutragedFromLeeds Sat 29-Jun-13 12:23:59

How do you know a nanny having her own child (that she leaves at home) will impact on her ability to do the job? Surely having children impacts slightly on anyone's ability to do any job? What if your nanny is off sick and you need to take the day off to care for your children? Your ability to do the job is impacted, best resign!

're my point 4 - If a candidate can't offer the flexibility I need - for any reason, whether it is children or a different reason, then she (or he) simply doesn't fit the job criteria. This is not sexism.'

It is sexism to assume that someone with their own child couldn't offer flexibly, which is what you've done. What if her DH is a SAHD?

Your no. 3 was not about this specific nanny it was 'a' nwoc could have a second baby quickly, not 'she' might have another baby quickly.

I have not been aggressive, calling you a twat would be aggressive, saying you have displayed a horrible and prejudiced attitude is factual.

Although I will say that you haven't specified a female nanny, would you decline a male nanny on the same grounds? He may become a father again, couldn't be flexible, couldn't bond with your children if he had his own etc. if so, then you're not actually sexist, you're prejudiced against all parents!

minipie Sat 29-Jun-13 13:17:40

What if your nanny is off sick and you need to take the day off to care for your children? Your ability to do the job is impacted, best resign!

In my job, I would be expected to find alternative childcare asap so I could come to work (in fact we are all members of an emergency childcare service precisely for this purpose) or failing that, respond to emails and calls from home while looking after my children.

I haven't assumed - her DP is not a SAHD and she needed to leave by a certain time.

Re no 3, it was a particular issue with this NWOC given what she said, but if I am honest it would be a concern with any employee with one young child.

No, horrible is not factual, it's an opinion.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Sat 29-Jun-13 13:31:49

I think it's weird to talk about your plans for other children in a job interview plus incapacitating aspects of your previous pregnancy. How on earth did that come up?

minipie Sat 29-Jun-13 17:12:55

yes I was quite surprised. she mentioned the spd/pregnancy thing when talking about her previous job, can't remember how the next child thing came up but she mentioned it, I didn't ask.

OutragedFromLeeds Sat 29-Jun-13 18:34:08

'In my job, I would be expected to find alternative childcare asap so I could come to work'

and that's what a nanny would be expected to do! There is no difference.

'I haven't assumed'

You have assumed because you're not talking about her situation you're talking about NWOC in GENERAL. You said 'Part of my reason to employ a nanny is for some flexibility in hours (should i get stuck at work) and babysitting possibilities, this would be much more difficult for a NWOC'. Not much more difficult for this nanny, much more difficult for a NWOC. Assuming that all NWOC would have difficulties.

'if I am honest it would be a concern with any employee with one young child.'

So you are prejudiced against all employees who have children? That's a fact then, not an opinion?

'No, horrible is not factual, it's an opinion.'

You said yourself you know it to be illegal. It's not an opinion it's fact. You've listed a load of reasons why you wouldn't employ a parent. That is a prejudiced view. It's your view, ergo you are prejudiced. FACT.

minipie Sat 29-Jun-13 19:57:02

Oh I'm bored of this argument Outraged. I was trying to help the OP understand what some employers may be put off by - so that she could seek to address these concerns up front if they do not apply to her. I accepted that some of my reasons may not be valid (legally or otherwise) and/or may not apply to all NWOCs.

I think it is unfortunate that employers are often reluctant to employ women who are likely to have more children in the near future, but I also think it is not unusual and not surprising. It is not "prejudice" without any practical basis - it is understandable reluctance to deal with the hassle of maternity cover etc. It helps nobody to simply shout "sexism" and say employers should ignore this factor - they won't.

Attacking posts like yours discourage honest posts on MN, which makes everyone the poorer.

OutragedFromLeeds Sat 29-Jun-13 20:09:30

Well, I'm sure the OP is thankful for your honest, openly prejudiced post. As it applies to all parents, not just nannies why not repost in chat so all the parents on here can learn why they're not attractive employment prospects?

Confronting horrible prejudiced posts does not make anyone poorer. People holding such views and not being challenged does though.

lougle Sat 29-Jun-13 20:45:06

From a logical point of view, if two families were sharing a nanny, they'd each pay 50%. You can see why some families think that 50% is fair.

If you you keep 100% salary, then in effect you are being paid to care for your own DS, plus saving on child care costs.

If your DS is only there 50% of the week, then I think a salary reduction of 25% is fair: 50% for half of the week and 100% for the other half.

OutragedFromLeeds Sat 29-Jun-13 20:54:45

A nanny-share and a NWOC situation are different though. A nanny bringing her own child to work does not get the same benefits that the families n a nanny share would get. For example, she always has to go to the employers home, whereas with a share the families would take turns to host. She will only do nursery duties e.g. bed changing, washing etc. for the family not for herself. Her child will have to fit in with her charges, in a nanny share it would be give and take etc. etc.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 29-Jun-13 22:58:19

Theres no other job you can take your child with you so why should nannying be any different. You either find childcare yourself or expect a significant reduction in salary to compensate for the fact that the employer is not getting exclusive childcare.

I can imagine it causes all sorts of problems, the main one being your child will always come first as per mothers instinct not the mindees. What if the parents wants their child to go to many activities, are they expected to pay for another child to join them? Wear and tear on the house, anothers baby/child belongings around and who pays for food and snacks?

Most peope who want a nanny want them for flexibility and sole childcare.

OutragedFromLeeds Sat 29-Jun-13 23:20:16

'Theres no other job you can take your child with you so why should nannying be any different'

That's a funny logic. All jobs should be exactly the same, with the same terms, same pros/cons etc.?

or are all jobs different?

confused

Some things suit some jobs and not others. Why can it be ok for a nanny to bring their child to work, but not ok for a brain surgeon? Erm......

blueshoes Sun 30-Jun-13 00:15:02

Well, a nanny job has an emotional quality to it that most jobs do not, in that it involves the employer's children. That's makes even more decisive if a parent prefers to have a nanny without children.

Sorry Outraged, you can argue till the cows come home but whoever pays the piper calls the tune. If you had a child, your unsympathetic attitude would make you particularly unattractive to an employer who is prepared to consider a NWC. Good luck with proving discrimination.

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Sun 30-Jun-13 00:25:38

Nanny shares don't split the cost of 'an ordinary nanny wage' either - no nanny I - know does a share for the same rate she'd do a single family.

ThirdTimesABrokenFanjo Sun 30-Jun-13 00:33:02

If they were same age I'd think it was great

WouldBeHarrietVane Sun 30-Jun-13 00:33:26

I trailed an NWOC. Even on the trial with me there it was very obvious her child came first.

I think it could work really well but the children have to be the right age and temperaments plus nanny and parents have to be flexible.

Things that put me off were the potential NWOC potentially not looking after DS properly and our evident very different parenting styles eg purée/blw, cuddling to sleep/leaving to cry etc which I think would have been problematic.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Sun 30-Jun-13 00:47:43

I would worry a bit about the bond between the children making it even harder if the nanny decided to leave.

ravenAK Sun 30-Jun-13 01:24:25

We have a NWOC - she started out as our CM, was fantastic but hated endless paperwork/Ofsted.

Being a teacher, I felt her pain; by the time I had 3dc, I was able to suggest she could just work for us as a nanny.

It's worked brilliantly. We have 3dc each - mine are 5-9, she has two the same sort of age & a teenager. Kids attend same school, are good friends.

However by the point we agreed she'd switch from CM to nanny, I'd known our NWOC for 4 years, & our dc had pretty much grown up together from babies. It's totally different from going into the same set up 'cold'.

If she ever quit - & once I'd finished having a breakdown! It'd probably be less of a nightmare if dh left! - I'd obviously have to look for a replacement, & whilst own dc wouldn't be an automatic deal breaker, because I know from experience it can work, & has many benefits, - I'd also be aware that it inevitably leads to tensions/rows between the respective dc.

This isn't a problem for me/NWOC. I know she treats my dc exactly as she treats her own. She's slightly less strict generally than I am, which is fine. We agree on all the important stuff, & when we disagree we have an existing relationship which makes it easy to discuss things.

If I had to start all over again with a new NWOC, all this would have to be negotiated, between me & NWOC AND between the two sets of dc.

At this point, tbh, unless he/she was head & shoulders above other candidates, OR offering to work for less (not 50% less!) I'd possibly feel it was an added layer of complication I didn't need. I'd probably be willing to be convinced, but I'd definitely expect teething problems.

mikulkin Sun 30-Jun-13 02:49:02

Outraged seems to be a nanny herself and hence attacks anyone who has opinion different from the one she wants her family to have. Quite scary...
Nanny costs a lot of money to families and hence they want 100% attention to their children. My DS is above the age when he needs nanny but in general I wouldn't consider NWOC as well even at 20% lower salary. If I pay that much money I would like my DC to get 100% attention. If I want DC to experience other children's company around I would put him/her in nursery.

tilbatilba Sun 30-Jun-13 03:07:35

Growing up we had a live in nanny who arrived with a 2 year old and 3 years later had a baby. It was great for us as children as we all got on so well and although all much older than the baby loved having him in our family as well. We had a very carefree childhood and all muddled in together very happily. Can't remember any of us lacking attention or a kind word - our mother wouldn't have given us the intense one on one - far more a free range mother so I guess it suited her style of parenting well and was perfect for us and hopefully for her as she stayed 7 years.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 30-Jun-13 11:55:17

mikulkin

I am a nanny. I'm not attacking anyone. I am not challenging anyone who has a different opinion to me.

I've challenged someone who said they wouldn't employ any parent, which is a prejudiced and I'm fairly sure illegal view.

I've challenged the logic in 'yes it could work really well and save me money, but I'm not allowed to bring my DC to the office/court/the building site, so why should a nanny bring her child to work?'. It makes no sense as an argument!

All the other arguments; split attention, more children in the house, more problematic etc. I think are fair points and I haven't said otherwise.

You really shouldn't be scared by someone having an alternative opinion!

blueshoes Sun 30-Jun-13 14:08:55

Outraged: "I've challenged someone who said they wouldn't employ any parent, which is a prejudiced and I'm fairly sure illegal view."

It is not illegal to not want to employ a parent if that the parent wants to bring a child to work and that parent's child would affect the ability of the parent to do her job well.

You yourself admit that a nanny with child comes with problems such as split attention, more children in the house, more problematic etc. which you think are fair points.

It could work well, it could not but if a parent does not want to even go there because they want undivided attention for which they are paying top whack (even with a 25% discount), where is the illegality? What is your argument?

It is only illegal if the family sacks the nanny for becoming a parent even though she does not bring her child to work or the family refuses to employ a nanny who happens to be a parent but does not bring her child to work. The minute she wants to bring her child to work, well that is a different kettle of fish.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 30-Jun-13 14:34:33

blueshoes have you read minipies posts? That is EXACTLY my point. She's talking about issues that effect all parents NOT nannies who want to bring their DC to work. She's talking about any nanny who has a child, even if that child is at home/in childcare. She made 4 points, one was about a nanny bringing a child, the other 3 apply to anyone with a child.

'It is only illegal if the family sacks the nanny for becoming a parent even though she does not bring her child to work or the family refuses to employ a nanny who happens to be a parent but does not bring her child to work'. I think we agree?

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 30-Jun-13 14:45:38

Here are minipies points;

- her child was clearly a very easy child. My concern was that this would lead to my child seeming "difficult" or even "a pain" in comparison. (of course, if her child was a difficult child, this would be an even bigger problem...!)

fair enough, although if the nanny had an easy child at home it could still lead to the nanny viewing the other child as difficult.

- I may be wrong about this but I think a NWOC would be less likely to bond as closely with their charges as a nanny with no children.

nothing to do with whether the DC are there or not, just that the nanny has children.

- I was concerned that a NWOC would have a second child quite swiftly, meaning I would have to find new childcare. yes, I know this is not a legal reason not to employ someone, however...

again no relevance to whether or not the child is brought to work, simply that the nanny has a child.

- Part of my reason to employ a nanny is for some flexibility in hours (should i get stuck at work) and babysitting possibilities, this would be much more difficult for a NWOC.

if anything it would be easer for a nanny who brings their child as no need to get back for babysitter etc. This applies to all parents.

Her points are not about a nanny bringing their child, they are about a nanny HAVNG a child. That is illegal I believe?

minipie Sun 30-Jun-13 16:53:20

I'm not quite sure what you want me to say Outraged. I'm not going to stop having these concerns just because you keep telling me they are prejudiced and illegal.

As others have said, nannying is an unusual job because of the emotional bonding aspect. There are all sorts of things that people may want in a nanny, that would not be relevant in other jobs - and could well be illegal.

For example, many people want a female nanny rather than a male nanny. This is illegal sexual discrimination. And yet, it's the way many people feel.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 30-Jun-13 17:24:20

My last two posts were to blueshoes, not you, because I think she has misunderstood my point. I don't have a problem with people not wanting a nanny who brings their child to work, my problem is with someone who won't employ a nanny who has a child.

I don't expect you to say anything, you've made your views abundantly clear. I will say 'some people are sexist' isn't really a justification for your horrible views. To quote my Grandma 'two wrongs don't make a right'!

78bunion Sun 30-Jun-13 19:48:18

I have done it and it's a hassle but if you've had the nanny for a few years already you can work around it but it's not as easy as having a nanny without children.
(I think there is an exception to sex discrimination law for domestic servants actually as they are in your own home and you CAN require they be of a particular sex)

SchnitzelVonKrumm Sun 30-Jun-13 20:34:20

I know a nanny who is struggling to find a job because she has young children even though she doesn't want to bring them to work with her and has childcare in place. I am one of her referees (she worked for us for a few months when our nanny had to take time off, and was brilliant) and even though I give a glowing reference, the parents I speak to always come back to the fact that she has her own children and so bound to be unreliable, not devoted enough to their pfb etc. Don't underestimate people's prejudices on this subject.
FWIW our nanny has a school-aged child for whom she has childcare but we pay her slightly less than the going rate on the basis that she can bring her DC along if she needs to.

WouldBeHarrietVane Sun 30-Jun-13 20:40:10

Outraged, I don't really understand your response to mini. My NWOC made it clear she was not up for babysitting - she needed to be at home to put her toddler to bed. I wouldn't think many NWOC with dc under 5 would be ready to do a lot of babysitting.

I think the bonding thing has everything to do with whether NWOC brings own children. My ideal would be a nanny with older children - an experienced mother who won't need to juggle caring for her own dc with bonding with mine.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 30-Jun-13 20:48:09

Would be

Mini has said she means parents in general, not a nanny who wants to bring her own child. She's not been misunderstood, she isn't denying it. She doesn't want a nanny who has her own children.

'I think the bonding thing has everything to do with whether NWOC brings own children'

You might think that, but that isn't what mini said and I don't think it's what she means.

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Sun 30-Jun-13 20:52:59

See - I find it weird that a nanny with her own children wouldn't bring them to work and I would find that a bit off putting. Why would you send your own children to be looked after by someone else, so you could look after someone else's children. I guess the only exceptions would be if the grandparents were doing the childcare and the parents really needed the money or if the children were at school and the other parent was doing the after school care.

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 30-Jun-13 21:00:45

because people need to work chipping and maybe they can't find a job where they're allowed to bring their own children or they have too many to bring....come on!

Do you find teachers who don't give up their career to home school their kids weird?

Seb101 Sun 30-Jun-13 21:20:03

Domestic servants!!!!!!! shockshockUnpleasant way of describing a nanny!!!

nannynick Sun 30-Jun-13 21:42:08

Legislation uses the term Domestic Servant, for example Working Time Regulations 1998, regulation 19

The only time that wording has been used in this thread, was in reference to sex discrimination legislation. I have a feeling it was actually removed when the Equality Act came into force, if indeed such wording existed in earlier sex discrimination legislation.

So Seb101, please do get over the use of the wording... it is a legal term, which is used to describe work such as that done by nannies.

BoffinMum Sun 30-Jun-13 22:56:02

TBH I am of the mind that if you want to go out to work, you need to organise childcare for your child just like everyone else does. If this doesn't appeal, then stay home.

I even worked in the same school as one of my children attended at one point, and I was expected to organise childcare when there were staff meetings, parents evenings, extra duties and so on. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would have been to have my little one kicking her heels in the corner with a colouring book while I was trying to attend to my job properly? Can you imagine how detrimental it would have been to her own development, to be put last while I put other children and their families very obviously ahead of her needs, right in front of her eyes? I am all for children learning to be patient, and not be centre of the universe, but the idea that hoiking them around regularly and endlessly with you while you work is in some way 'proper', or even superior parenting needs to be heavily criticised, IMO.

Either you are shortchanging your own child, or your employers' children. And if you don't believe that is happening, then you have your head in the sand.

In terms of not employing nannies on the basis that they have children, I am not sure this is even illegal given that the same discrimination would presumably apply to male nannies. However it stinks. Nevertheless if this is the reality of the job market then a clear statement of how childcare would be organised, for example if the nanny's own children were ill, would presumably be reassuring to any (prejudiced) employer. You have to remember how flaky many nannies are, and how this lets down the rest of the profession.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Sun 30-Jun-13 23:02:02

Boffin, don't an awful lot of childminders have their own children though? And daycare places often give reductions to staff children.

Maybe NWOC should carry some specific title different to nanny or childminder.

mikulkin Sun 30-Jun-13 23:54:07

Well, seems like Mini should not be entitled to her opinion but Outraged should smile funny logic.
I also don't understand why nanny job should be different from other jobs and should allow bringing children with you. why doesn't it make sense as an argument? Is that because the job implies interaction with children? If yes then teachers should be allowed to bring their children to sit in a class while they teach.
Outraged, I am not scared by people's opinions but I find your tone scary.

Whereas you dont consider your setup as a "nanny share", I am almost certain that employers would.

Mrscupcake23 Mon 01-Jul-13 00:13:15

I always took my children to work with me. Both jobs said they wanted someone with own child . Worked fine however my own always came second to the minded child but it was only three days a week.

I think each to their own its not a right to take your child to work it's if the person you work for does not mind.

Never took a cut In wages as nannies all earn different anyway . I have two jobs ATM they pAy three pounds am hour different,

OutragedFromLeeds Mon 01-Jul-13 00:22:47

mik she's entitled to her opinion, but it is a prejudiced opinion and one that probably can't be acted on legally.

It doesn't make sense as an argument because it's a bit 'cut off your nose to spite your face'; 'I can't do it therefore you shouldn't be able to (even if it actually could work quite well)'. If you don't want a nwoc for one of the many logical reasons given fair enough, but to not allow something that could benefit everyone just because you're not allowed to do it is, imo, illogical.

Quint IME most nanny employers know the difference. You can certainly have a nanny share with the nanny's own child, but it does come with a distinct and separate set of terms.

glitternanny Mon 01-Jul-13 11:49:04

bloody hell!!!

why don't you come fit my work houses with cameras then see what kind of nanny I am!

my work kids quite often don't want me involved in their games! so I tidy and get on with chores and do extra jobs!

it is NOT a nannyshare

I won't be having more kids in the near future as my bf moved out in january

all I am is a single mum trying to earn a living

strangely ive had a lady with 4 kids offering me a job but sadly her work changed her days but she wants to know if im ever available!

starting to wish I hadn't posted this now

HappyMummyOfOne Mon 01-Jul-13 16:06:41

Of course its a nanny share. If you bring your own children its no longer one to one care that the employer is getting.

Most mums try to earn a living but they understand that in order to do their job they need to have childcare in place. Some employers of nannies are happy for them to bring their own children in exchange for a cheaper rate but why on earth would you pay the same rate for someone who is effectively doing two roles not one.

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Mon 01-Jul-13 16:14:03

Oh for the love of all things furry - it is not a nanny-share. Nanny-shares are completely different.

It is no longer one to one care - but then it isn't if the family has more than one of their own children... that doesn't make it a nanny-share either.

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Mon 01-Jul-13 16:16:42

OutragedFromLeeds Sun 30-Jun-13 21:00:45
because people need to work chipping and maybe they can't find a job where they're allowed to bring their own children or they have too many to bring....come on! Do you find teachers who don't give up their career to home school their kids weird?

No need to be so snipey.

'People need to work' - so they pay someone to mind their child and get paid to mind someone else's child - completely pointless unless you have free childcare and you can't even claim it's because you 'need to work for your sanity'.

Teaching is not nannying - completely different.

OutragedFromLeeds Mon 01-Jul-13 16:39:43

Sorry chipping, just it seemed a very silly question! A nanny in London earns approx £12ph, childminder is about £6ph, even if I'm paying for all my childcare it's still worth going back to work. Or maybe my DH is unemployed or I have free childcare part of the week or something. The reasons someone chooses to go back to work are not really any of your business and to judge it as weird is quite unfair imo.

The principle with teaching is the same. They're leaving their child to go and teach other children. Why not give up work and teach your own?

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Mon 01-Jul-13 16:57:39

Outraged

You think it's a silly question, it doesn't mean it is a silly question (and actually it was rhetorical).

By the time a nanny has paid tax & NI and then childcare for their own child/ren (plus petrol & other expenses etc) out of the net amount, there can't be that much left over. It seems weird to me to work as a nanny and then have someone else looking after your children (unless it's the other parent or grandparents). This can't be good for your childrens state of mind either - my Mummy would rather look after another child than me...??

The reasons someone chooses to go back to work are not really any of your business and to judge it as weird is quite unfair imo

I wasn't speaking about 'someone' I was speaking about 'nannies in general' - so I've no idea why you feel I shouldn't comment on it or have an opinion on it. We are discussing nannies with children - it is one aspect of it. I'm entitled to find it 'weird' that someone would choose to look after someone elses child and put their child in care.

The principle with teaching is the same. They're leaving their child to go and teach other children. Why not give up work and teach your own? - That's a ridiculous comparison. It is nothing like the same thing.

Mrscupcake23 Mon 01-Jul-13 17:44:56

I was doing long days as a nanny I took mine with me and then my husband would come and get them at 430 worked well as only had two for bath time.

No way was it a nanny share my own would do all the swimming and dance classes on a non work day . They would have to sit and watch the minded children at classes. I very much fitted in with them so not a nanny share.

OutragedFromLeeds Mon 01-Jul-13 19:07:36

Fair enough chipping

It just seems to me, imo, in my view (I'm aware this is not fact!) an unnecessarily judgy comment, but you are of course entitled to judge anyone for anything.

'my Mummy would rather look after another child than me...??'

This ^ is ridiculous though. Are children of office workers worrying that their mum would rather sit in an office all day than be with them? Nannying is a job. 'I have to go to work to pay the bills' is as good an explanation for the DC of a nanny as it is for the DC of an office worker/zoo keeper/traffic warden.

(Why is the comparison with teaching ridiculous? I cant see it.)

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Mon 01-Jul-13 19:30:07

Outraged Are you always so rude? I happen to know, for a fact, that this is exactly how one child feels about his Mum nannying for a family while he goes to nursery/grandparents. It is entirely different to a parent working in an office - he knows she is looking after two other children and he thinks she loves them more because she would <in his view> rather be looking after them. It is sad. It is not at all surprising a child would feel this way.

You can't see the difference between what a nanny does and what a teacher does, the way a nanny works and the way a teacher works, the environments they work in...really?

OutragedFromLeeds Mon 01-Jul-13 19:53:39

Where have I been rude?! I've said sorry for being snipey. I found your comment judgy (my opinion, not a fact I've specified).

I don't think I'm being unreasonable to find 'weird' a judgy term tbh. You know there will be nannies on here who have to work and leave their children in childcare, to call their choice weird and then go on to emphasise the damage they're doing is, imo, quite insensitive and, dare I say it, a bit rude.

I'm sure there are kids out there who are upset that their mum goes to work in an office. There are kids whose mums are nannies who are well adjusted.

I can see the difference between teachers and nannies, but I think the principle is the same. That's just my view though. I understand that you disagree. I'm not looking for a row.

nooka Mon 01-Jul-13 20:40:54

We had a nanny with own child as our first nanny. It worked fine for a while, when I had just the one child and before her little boy started nursery. I think it probably made it easier for ds to adjust to having his little sister around as he was used to sharing. However when the nanny's little boy started nursery it became fairly obvious that it wasn't going to work any more as ds's experiences became much more limited. Before that the nanny took them to lots of soft play centres and play dates, but because she had to drop off and pick up her little boy that wasn't really possible any more. Then when dd arrived it became obvious that it was just a bit too much for her, and to be honest it was getting a bit much for her little boy too, like the OP he had to get up very early and with nursery hours it was obviously a bit much for him.

Luckily it was a mutual decision, and she took a part time job after us. Our next nanny was younger, had her own car and was totally focused on my two children. I was happy to pay her more than the previous nanny because the 'service' was better (she was also generally fabulous), although the nanny market seemed to have dropped a bit in price by that time in any case (and I'd had a promotion too).

So in general if I had the money to choose my preference would be for the nanny who presented with the least potential complications, and a bring along child is quite complicated. I would certainly not expect someone with a child to be charging top dollar.

Murtette Mon 01-Jul-13 22:06:48

glitter - are your DH's shifts regular? If so, could you look for two jobs? One for the days when you don't have your DS with you and one for the days when you do?
When we were considering getting a nanny, the agency really tried to sell us a NWOC whose DS was 20mths (I have a 3.8 DD and a 12mth DS). The main thing which put me off was the moral dilemma I would have had that I want a nanny to completely prioritise my children - but wouldn't want her to child to come second. If I have a nanny without a child, that's not a problem. An example being that I don't want my DD to be in the front seat of a car but nor do I feel that I could insist that a nanny put her own younger child in the front seat of a car as, if an accident were to happen, DD would probably fare better than a younger child were to.
Another concern was how the nanny would follow my guidance on discipline etc. I would want her to treat my DC and her DS the same yet it would be confusing for her child if he was treated one way by her at our house and another way at home. I know I'm quite lax about some things and quite uptight about others and, whilst I can't think of any examples, know it has surprised some friends and that they can get away with some things in ours that they can't at home and vice versa.
The other concern was the practicality. Ideally, I would want a nanny to stay with us until DS starts school in three years. A nanny with a 20mth old would be able to benefit from the 15 hours free funding in 16mths time at which point our relationship would have to terminate as she wouldn't be able to drop our DD off at school and do her DS' drop off (as he'd go somewhere different). If there was some way of making it work, my DS would spend a lot of time in the car.
Basically, its a complicating factor which has to come up at interview. To be fair, there are other complicating factors which a nanny may have (going through relationship troubles/ close family member in ill health requiring being taken to appointments etc) which would actually cause me more problems but which wouldn't necessarily come up at interview and so I wouldn't know about.

glitternanny Tue 02-Jul-13 10:05:29

its no way a nannyshare

I don't get to do what my bosses want done with the kids and what I want to do with my boy.

im here promptly at 7 every morning and I do my job - if that means my son misses his sleeps at the times he would have them then so be it.

I can't say no we aren't doing toddlers today I want to take my boy swimming!!

its my bosses rules routines and wishes im following not mine -> not a nannyshare

my ex boyfriend doesn't have set shifts sadly and it works about 8 days a month I take my son to work with me.

Least having written this thread the parents who are contacting me I better placed to ease any concern raised here over my balance between being a nanny and a mummy

Daiso Tue 02-Jul-13 11:32:09

I think what it boils down to is the fact that some parents (and entitled to their choices/opinions) don't want a nanny who has their own responsibilities in addition to the ones they will be giving them as their employer, whereas some are more than happy for nwoc as they can see the benefits. Each to their own and good luck with your search.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Tue 02-Jul-13 12:31:49

Glitter
Would you consider offering a fixed term contract for a period of time or an extended trial period which you could use to see how the arrangement worked for both of you?

This occurred to me. I am wondering whether a parent who likes you but is worried about NWOC generally (and getting roped into an arrangement that would be complex to end) would consider this and when they saw how well it worked with sign on permanently.

I don't know - obviously if you have an offer where you don't have to do this, take that, but if you're really struggling, it's just a thought.

Mrscupcake23 Tue 02-Jul-13 12:31:59

Think you have summed up really well daiso was going to post the same each to their own.

glitternanny Wed 03-Jul-13 22:42:16

there's normally a probationary period in new contracts.
it could be seen as hassle and disruption tho if I were to go not long after I started
but yes worth bearing in mind

having spoken to my current bosses about this they're in awe at peoples reactions

ill be back in w few months to post about my great new family! grin grin

AuntySib Wed 03-Jul-13 23:01:12

I did have a nanny with her own child. It worked, but because her child was older (at school) . If she'd had a younger child, I'm not sure that it would have worked - the reason I employed a nanny at that stage was because 2 children at a childminders would have been more expensive. I'm not sure she would have coped so well with 3 toddlers ( buggy problems etc.) Her son was around during the holidays and odd sick days, but could walk and talk and was fairly independent, so she could focus on the little ones.
If I'd just had one child, I would have been happy for her to bring a younger child, because I trusted her to be professional, and would have liked the idea of company for my child ( assuming they got on OK).

BoffinMum Thu 04-Jul-13 03:38:52

Doctrine, I think it's a bizarre way to work and not worthy of a job title at all. You are effectively whoring your kids as potential playmates on the whim of an employer, and this could be ended at any time, at great emotional cost to the child. Bonkers for anyone who claims to understand child development.

And for those nannies who whine about how little money they have left after shelling out for childcare, welcome to the real world, ladies. Perhaps you now understand why a 'piffling' 50p an hour annual increase demanded by nannies 'because if you cared about your child you'd pay for the best' and 'it's because I'm worth it' practically pushes many middle class families over the financial brink. Really,I have no sympathy. Grow up, and sort yourselves out.

HappyMummyOfOne Thu 04-Jul-13 07:47:47

Well said BoffinMum, i think a dose of reality is needed.

You simply cant expect to take your own child to work so save you spending on childcare then moan that parents are selfish that they dont want your chld there or expect to pay a decent reduction because the care is then shared.

Regardless of saying your own child has no impact. Of course it does. It increases the number if children being looked after. Your own child needs dealing with if upset or having a tantrum, playing with, feeding, wants mummy etc.

magicstars Thu 04-Jul-13 08:27:11

I did consider hiring a nanny with a child at one point, the idea appealed to me as they were close in age & I wanted dd to have a play mate.
I didn't employ her, but because I met better qualified people, it wasn't directly related to her having a child. I was going to pay her the same rate as the other nannies.
The general consensus when I discussed the options with friends (practicalities aside as it sounds like u have that covered) were that she wouldn't be able to help but put her own dc's needs first. When I wasn't there she would instinctively tend to her own dc's needs before dd's. This didn't necessarily put me off as I thought sharing time with another would be actually good for dd. I believe she set up as a childminder in the end.
Good luck

TheDoctrineOfAllan Thu 04-Jul-13 08:55:35

Boffin, do you feel the same way about childminders?

LadyHarrietdeSpook Thu 04-Jul-13 11:44:06

CHildminders do not cost £750 pounds per week, once tax et all is added in - this is on the "average nanny salary" of £500 net per week.

OutragedFromLeeds Thu 04-Jul-13 12:54:42

Depends how many children you've got Lady and how much the childminder charges.

3 children at £6 per hour is £900 for a 50 hour week.

I think we're all in agreement that a NWOC should come in at least 20% below market rates, so probably more like £600 a week. Plus you still get the majority of benefits that having a nanny brings (nursery duties etc.), the only one you're really losing is the sole care aspect.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Thu 04-Jul-13 13:59:02

That's true if the CM is charging that much per hour.

glitternanny Thu 04-Jul-13 22:21:00

I havent said any parent is selfish

if I could afford to put my son into childcare to work and pay my bills I would

all im trying to do is make a living independently

I have never expected a payrise certainly not 50p an hour I wish! ive always been v v grateful of any bonuses or presents I get from my bosses

I love my job all i want to do is keep working so I can keep my house and pay my bills

sad sad sad

sweetsummerlove Fri 05-Jul-13 09:49:13

holy poop. I need to work in London!

BoffinMum Fri 05-Jul-13 16:06:04

Test - ignore post

BoffinMum Fri 05-Jul-13 16:24:27

On the one occasion I have experimented with this, not only were my kids virtually ignored, but I was also told how 'difficult' they were. In actual fact I worked out that the nanny had insisted my kids sit still and play endless board games she had brought with her, with the nanny's kids, to make it easier for her to watch them all at once. In the end my two (rather less naturally sedentary kids) sloped off and allegedly played on their own while the nanny exclusively engaged with her own offspring for the duration.Not a great scenario and I didn't take her on.

BoffinMum Fri 05-Jul-13 16:26:03

I have never found a childminder I would trust with my kids. I am sure they are out there but not round by me.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 05-Jul-13 16:28:20

You do have particularly bad luck with nannies Boff, with or without their own children it seems.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 05-Jul-13 16:30:12

grin X-post

.....and childminders!

BoffinMum Fri 05-Jul-13 16:44:38

To be fair I had one or two bloody ace ones who still one back regularly to cover holidays etc.

HappyMummyOfOne Fri 05-Jul-13 20:35:38

"I love my job all i want to do is keep working so I can keep my house and pay my bills "

Then you need to be more realistic. Either book childcare for the few days you need it for your son, offer a cheaper rate and take him with you or find a different path where childcare is more accessible.

You seem to be of the opinion that what you want you should get, that your own child has zero impact on your job but given you are not getting any job offers it seems others dont agree.

katieks Sat 06-Jul-13 22:26:12

We did this and although it worked, I don't think I would again. Her little one broke toys, chewed books and I had to hide some toys from my own kids so that hers wouldn't break them. They did play together to some extent, but with hers being the youngest, I think he benefited the most. I also think it was too much with three under 3 looking after them all on her own so sometimes he would be unsupervised and if I was home it would be me diverting him away from the TV or taking the books out his mouth (again!).

BoffinMum Sun 07-Jul-13 05:08:20

I think it sounds like you need to find a better paid job and put your LO in nursery for a couple of days a week, tbh. Without a degree this is going to be quite hard, though. Can you do a foundation degree?

MummytoMog Mon 08-Jul-13 22:46:18

We recently had our CM work for us for a bit as a nanny (complicated situation) and she brought her 2 year old with her. I loved it, meant that there was someone to play with my two year old, who normally just gets shoved around by my three year old. If we had a permanent nanny, we'd deffo be looking for one with their own child (DD has developmental delays and spending time with other kids is v good for her), but we did pay our CM slightly less per hour when she brought her child (£1 less).

Threewindmills Wed 10-Jul-13 11:58:45

The key thing here is that nannying is about the only job (I can think of) where it is considered at all that you might be able to take your child to work. Clearly having another child as part of the equation is going to have an impact on any nannying situation including:

What happens if my child is ill - would nanny still want to work?
Wear and tear on house (may be more?)
Focus on activities for my child (may be less?)
Ability to do activities 1 to 1 (e.g. swimming) - not possible
Equipment - does the nanny expect high chairs/double prams etc to be purchased?
Limitation on activities due to sleep/feed patterns (or age of nanny's child)

However - might be ideal playmate for dc/a lot may be gained from relationship.
My nanny sometimes brings her older child and my dc enjoys the time spent playing with him - however, I like the fact it is not all the time.

Basically - I think understanding it from the point of view of the parents and not expecting it as a right is really important as nannies are very expensive - you are paying someones salary out of your own and are expecting something different than a CM offers. That said, in the right situation, it can be win/win

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