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can I terminate my cm contract with immediate effect

(89 Posts)
filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 07:47:46

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filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 07:48:33

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mellen Sat 05-Jan-13 08:21:46

I think that if you leave him there until you have found other childcare you will struggle to argue that the care was so poor that you couldnt serve out the notice period.

filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 08:26:19

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mellen Sat 05-Jan-13 08:35:06

Have you given notice yet? If so how long do you have left to serve?

filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 08:38:51

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RobinsBaubleSparkles Sat 05-Jan-13 08:44:34

I know a CM who was left with immediate effect but they still had to pay her. I'm sorry that's not very helpful.

You could leave but you would probably still have to pay because it's in the contract unless you could find a way around it.

RobinsBaubleSparkles Sat 05-Jan-13 08:47:12

I'm sorry about what is happening with your DS btw. Not changing him so that he gets nappy rash is absolutely disgusting! I would be heartbroken.

filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 08:53:02

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Bicnod Sat 05-Jan-13 09:11:13

I left a cm with immediate effect and didn't pay her because she had already broken her side of the contract by not providing DS with adequate levels of care.

I wrote to her to this effect detailing all the ways she had broken her side of the contract, and saying we were therefore no longer bound by its terms and would be removing DS from her care with immediate effect and without compensation.

I haven't read your other thread but if safety has been compromised surely you should report to Ofsted? This would also strengthen your case for terminating contract due to her not fulfilling her side of it.

If you leave your child with her while finding alternative care I don't think you'll have a leg to stand on. Can you take emergency unpaid parental leave?

filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 09:13:32

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minderjinx Sat 05-Jan-13 09:24:39

I think in context that this is intended for a situation where a childminder feels obliged to stop caring for a child who is a danger to itself or others, such as a persistent biter or hitter.

I am sorry to hear that your DS has not been properly cared for, and certainly think failing to change a nappy sufficiently often warrants a complaint, or even justifies giving notice, but I doubt it would be seen as good reason to quit without notice without any evidence of any attempts to put this right. I haven't read all your previous threads, but if my child came home with a sore bottom a couple of times I would be having a word, and if it kept happening I'd write a written complaint and expect a written reply (as well as a rapid improvement in frequency of changes). Your childminder should have a complaints procedure, but most will move heaven and earth to avoid any minor concerns developing into formal complaints.

Incidentally, I think in most employment situations inadequate performance would result in a warning (or several) and that instant dismissal is quite uncommon. With a contract situation you have the option of giving notice without needing to provide any justification or evidence of poor practice, so I think your position is much stronger in that you can insist on improvement with the absoluate right to end the arrangement (after proper notice) if it is not to your liking.

minderjinx Sat 05-Jan-13 09:26:43

Sorry x-posted. My first sentence refers to Filibear's findings on the NCMA site.

MaryPoppinsBag Sat 05-Jan-13 09:31:23

If you are that unhappy with the care provided leave immediately and take unpaid time off, until you sort out another form of childcare.

I read the other thread and can I just say that my nephew suffers from nappy rash and it doesn't matter how often you change him. Once the offending poo has been in contact with his skin it makes it sore sad
No neglect in his case just the way he reacts. Particularly bad when teething or after being given Calpol. Does she have permission to apply sudocreme?

With regards to tweeting - is it extreme or could it coincide with a break? I work 12 hour days some days and reserve the right to check my smartphone and have a brew!!! Or heaven forbid sit down and eat.

If I felt strongly enough about it I would remove my child. It is an awkward situation.

Sorry if I've missed out any key facts in the case. Just trying to put a different perspective on it.
Although there's no excuse for not changing nappies, if you know that to be true.

MaryPoppinsBag Sat 05-Jan-13 09:33:04

Sorry x posted with a fee

MaryPoppinsBag Sat 05-Jan-13 09:33:15

*few

filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 09:34:38

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filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 09:38:05

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filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 09:39:18

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ReetPetit Sat 05-Jan-13 09:39:32

Sorry it has not improved op. What happened yesterday?
I think you have no option but to remove ds and for you and dh to cover untol you find someone else as unpaid leave.you may be lucky and find another cm/nursery very quickly,you are looking at the right time of year!
Alternatively,you could leave him there until you find someone,making it extremely clear what you expect re nappy changing but then you would probably have to pay the notice period as you couldnt then say you feared for his health...
Its difficult,i know it seems unfair but cms have to have the noitice periiod in place or we would potentially have parents leaving all the time and leaving us without income.

ReetPetit Sat 05-Jan-13 09:43:16

X posts sorry, god, that is awful,she sounds like a lazy,neglectful cow! Withdraw him, write your concern.s in a letter to her and cforward it to ofsted an dont pay her.
Where are you op? Maybe one of us could cover? Xx

filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 09:45:27

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ReetPetit Sat 05-Jan-13 09:47:54

What a shame,im not in your area but im sure others here are. You will find someone/somewhere lovely,dont worry x

Tanith Sat 05-Jan-13 10:56:25

Have you put your concerns in writing? She's obliged to answer those concerns and to deal with them. It also strengthens your case for removal of your child.
You should have more unpaid parental leave than that if you've been employed for a year, is it worth checking that? Is your husband entitled to it?

I think you have 3 options:

Give immediate notice and either find a place with another childminder or nursery, or use either your or your husband's emergency parental leave.
You do risk being chased for non-payment of notice period: that's fine if you can show you were justified.

Give 4 weeks notice now and find an alternative place, putting in a request for you or your husband to take unpaid parental leave to cover either a shortfall in childcare or settling in. You may want to put in a written complaint.

Carry on until you find a place. Put your complaint in writing, then give notice in the usual way once you have an alternative.

I don't think you can realistically terminate with immediate effect at a later date if you leave your child there now. Unless something happens to justify it, of course.

MaryPoppinsBag Sat 05-Jan-13 13:04:46

Can you find an alternative CM? For emergency care. I'd offer you my services but I'm in Yorkshire.

I agree frequency of nappy changing is unacceptable.

She must be stupid to think she can get away with that and the tweeting! Makes me cross. angry

bigkidsdidit Sat 05-Jan-13 13:14:30

I found a CM within 2 days on childcare.co.uk. Could you Phone in sick and do that? Not great behaviour at work but I would do it in this case

Blondeshavemorefun Sat 05-Jan-13 14:16:22

as others have said, if you are that unhappy with her care then you remove immediately and find other childcare - if need be then a temp nanny - yes more costly then a cm but will give you time

i dont think you can leave dc there while you find childcare yet then say you fear for his safety

sorry know my reply is no help sad

filibear Sat 05-Jan-13 15:18:39

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calmlychaotic Sat 05-Jan-13 21:51:17

i took mine out of nursery with no notice, similar reasons to yours, i arranged a meeting with the manager gave her my concerns in writing and agreed to pay 2 weeks instead of 4 which she was happy to do. hope you get alternatve sorted soon, please dont let this put you off childminders most are lovely. 5 hours betwen nappy changes wow, thats awful

Lala29 Sat 05-Jan-13 23:12:59

I am so sorry to hear that nothing has improved. Just imagining myself in your situation and it makes me even more grateful for the childminder we have found. They are out there!

My DD has lots of accidents at the CM, but we are always told exactly how they happened and she is no different at home, just an extremely active 15 month old, who thinks she is one of the big kids! But if I wasn't told repeatedly about how accidents happen, I would be asking what she is doing when she should be watching my child. The incident with the airfreshener is really bad as. An unchanged nappy, after 5 hours! Your poor son!

As others have said, I would write a complaint and cc OFSTED in. I would also withdraw immediately, call in sick and find emergency childcare until you managed to find a more permanent solution.

Good luck and let us know how you get on. Your CM should be named and shamed and certainly reported I think.

filibear Mon 07-Jan-13 07:53:25

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ReetPetit Mon 07-Jan-13 09:50:08

good luck filibear. let us know what response you get from (rubbish) childminder wink

filibear Mon 07-Jan-13 10:02:15

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anewyear Mon 07-Jan-13 17:25:02

Op if you dont mind me asking, how old is your son?
I could only see you were thinking of putting him in Nursery when he is 3.
Is he 3/or nearly yet?
Was just wondering, If so (not that it helps the with the situation your in at the moment) would he be anywhere near enough/ready to be toilet/potty trained yet?
Just a thought I had..

filibear Mon 07-Jan-13 17:34:07

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anewyear Mon 07-Jan-13 17:41:48

Ahh little bit young for all that then. Bless him.

filibear Wed 09-Jan-13 15:40:06

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MaryPoppinsBag Wed 09-Jan-13 16:24:32

How the fuck did he get burnt?

filibear Wed 09-Jan-13 16:32:08

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MaryPoppinsBag Wed 09-Jan-13 16:38:44

sad
How awful I would be mortified if it happened to my own child let alone a mindee. You have to be so vigilant.

Have you been able to find a new minder?
Please don't think that we are all like that.
Because there are some wonderful minders out there.

I agree with you not your DH.
Personally I don't like nurseries but it would be a million times better than where he is now.

filibear Wed 09-Jan-13 16:41:52

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MaryPoppinsBag Wed 09-Jan-13 16:45:22

You have to make sure your DH knows how unacceptable the injuries are. And that it is in his best interest to change provider.

You really cannot leave him there.

(can't remember whether you have reported her or not)

Blondeshavemorefun Wed 09-Jan-13 18:29:06

accidents happen but usually the cm/nanny etc will know what happened and explain to you

the fact your cm doesnt know what happened or prob didnt even reliese till you pointed it out is awful shock

and cant beleive your dh wants him to stay there hmm

minderjinx Wed 09-Jan-13 18:49:36

Why do you think the small blister on DS's wrist is a burn? If there is nothing around at the childminders that he could have burned himself on, maybe it is an allergic reaction or some sort of infection. If you really believe your child has been burned, I think you should get a proper medical opinion on this before the evidence disappears.

filibear Wed 09-Jan-13 18:59:43

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ReetPetit Wed 09-Jan-13 20:26:42

omg filibear shock it just gets worse for you and your ds!!
when did the burn happen? did you take him back after having removed him? did the cm know you had removed him from her care?

sorry but what the hell is your dh playing at. a move really doesn't matter in the scheme of things, what matters is your child's safety and health. he is not safe with this carer. i would go against what my dh said in your situation, i would not take him back there.

he will be fine at a nursery, and he will attach to another carer. there are some excellent cms out there, you have just got a crap one.

i really feel for you. can you put an ad on here? see if any mumsnet childminders are local to you?

laughinglikeadrain Wed 09-Jan-13 20:58:33

what will happen if you remove him and then not pay.

she will take you to the small claims court for breach of contract. You will have a chance to have your say in front of a judge, But if it goes against you, you will have a CCJ against you.

BTW I think you should whip him out of there NOW and worry about complications later.

Your job is also a complication.... i would love to see their argument at a tribunal!

ReetPetit Thu 10-Jan-13 14:38:29

whats happening filibear? have you been sending ds to the cm. hope he and you are ok sad

filibear Fri 11-Jan-13 20:52:14

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InNeatCognac Fri 11-Jan-13 21:02:37

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filibear Fri 11-Jan-13 21:04:07

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InNeatCognac Fri 11-Jan-13 21:08:06

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Welovecouscous Fri 11-Jan-13 21:20:45

Fili I think you have to just be very straight with your DH and say that not only is this not the best care for DS but worrying about it is making you very unhappy and something has to be done right now.

Can't you say you have read about childcare online and that this level of nappy rash in a childcare setting where all is fine at home is almost always a sign of lack of proper care.

Fwiw I recently took my dc out of a nanny's care where there was lack of bonding. I had to pay the contract notice period but it was still worth it.

ReetPetit Fri 11-Jan-13 22:38:18

filibear, omg, please,please don't send him back there. alarm bells are seriously ringing here for me - something is not right. i'm sorry to say, i don't know what your dh is playing at - you need to be strong and fight for your ds -DO NOT send him back there.

If he has a red raw rash/mark down his leg - why is it not on his bum? are you sure its even nappy rash or is it another burn/smack or something?

pull him out she doesn't sound right, i'm sorry.... sad

Blondeshavemorefun Fri 11-Jan-13 22:51:04

Oh honey you are not pathetic. I'm actually rather cross with your dh for taking so little notice of your concerns sad

Something is not right with the nappy situation

More so though is the reluctance of the cm putting the accidents in the book. Sure ofsted would not be happy with this

Thing is - as I said before the more you keep your ds there then the less you have a leg to stand on - as if you were that worried you would take ds out now

filibear Sat 12-Jan-13 08:42:22

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Locketjuice Sat 12-Jan-13 08:45:42

I think if you think your child is not being cared fr properly sort out your priorities and stuff work!

ReetPetit Sat 12-Jan-13 09:06:14

filibear,dont be scared of all this. take control of your situation. you are the parent. your ds relies on you to do right by him. you would never forgive yourself is something serious happened to him while you were waiting for him to be old enough to go to nursery!
have you been back through the list of cms to see who has a place?
do you have a family member who can help you out?
you need to get him out. something is going on. if you keep him there,legally you wont have a leg to stand on when it comes to saying she wasnt providing adequate care but thats a side issue imo. your priority has to be NOT To take him back....

calmlychaotic Sat 12-Jan-13 09:33:09

I took someone on who was in a rush to leave last cm, we signed contracts on a Friday night,did settling in over the weekend and started on Monday. most cm would be happy to help you in anyway they can. I would recommend childcare.co .uk. I think you should get him out of there. you are not happy. you are not going to be able to work without worrying about him

Blondeshavemorefun Sat 12-Jan-13 09:51:52

I still think while you find a new cm / decide what childcare you want / to give you breathing space and so you don't jump in and choice the wrong one - ring agencies and get a temp nanny for a month or so

FamiliesShareGerms Sat 12-Jan-13 09:54:02

I agree that childcare.co.uk is a great resource for finding a CM, or even a temporary nanny

OP have you spoken to NCMA or Ofsted about your concerns? That might help you get clear in your head where you stand, what action they might take if you report her formally (eg the reluctance to complete the accident book), and your options for leaving without notice.

I left a CM at the end of the initial four weeks with no notice because she was late at least twice a week to pick DS up from nursery (particularly annoying as she charged an additional £5 for pick ups!) and then it turned out that here husband was also working as a CM but she hadn't told me that when I met her and looked round the house etc. I only found out because nursery called me to say that DS was a bit upset on the days when he picked up - and I had no idea that he was doing that, or even ever in sole charge of DS. I told her that I was unhappy with this arrangement, she said that it wasn't going to change, so I said that the end of the week would be the last week.

I figured that if she decided to pursue me for breach of contract, I would see how far she was prepared to take it and be prepared to pay some money ahead of it getting to the small claims court. She never did take it any further.

Normally I would never advocate breaking a contract, but there are some occasions eg when your child is at risk that it is an act now, sort it out later situation.

The main thing for me, OP, in deciding what to do was that DS wasn't happy. We knew he hadn't settled, but had put that down to other things going on at the same time, as he had always adapted really well to changes previously. But once we found out the real set up, were unhappy with it ourselves, and knew that he wasn't happy with it either, it was an obvious choice. And if he had been coming home injured, he would have been out of there straight away

On the nappy rash, DD was like this - even an immediate change could still leave her red raw. Have you tried Metanium? That really helped calm DD's bottom down

FamiliesShareGerms Sat 12-Jan-13 09:56:23

By the way, I'd also be taking photos of the marks on his wrist, leg etc so that you have some evidence of your concerns. And a doctor's diagnosis would be helpful too if you can get an appointment (I've never heard of nappy rash on a leg before)

minderjinx Sat 12-Jan-13 11:30:14

Regarding the small blister at least, the CMs reluctance to complete an accident report is entirely understandable if she does not believe there was an accident, for example if she believes this was either a minor injury he arrived with and that she did not spot until part way through the day, or that it is due to some sort of infection or skin irritation. If I had a child who I absolutely knew had not had any sort of accident while in my care, I would not agree to make up an accident just to put down on an accident report, but I would still document as a record of a conversation with parents or even as a complaint if that is what they wanted to call it the fact that the parent insisted there had been an accident, my reasons for believing otherwise (such as there was no access to any heat source and that the child had not at any point indicated any shock or pain during the day) and my advice which in this case would be for the parents to take him/her to a GP for a proper medical assessment. It would in some ways easier to say I'd fill in an accident form to keep the parent happy, they would sign it and that would be that, but it would not be truthful.

I'm not suggesting you should stick with this minder if you are not happy, but just that there may be rational explanations for one or two of the things which are upsetting to you if you look at it from the other perspective.

filibear Sat 12-Jan-13 17:06:46

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ReetPetit Sat 12-Jan-13 19:28:19

filibear, this doesn't sound right to me. it doesn't sound like nappy rash. can you take him to see an emergency doctor and get it looked at?
the fact that he never gets it at home suggests more than neglect to me. i'm sorry, i really think you need to act quickly.
are there other parents at the childminders who you could talk to??

filibear Sat 12-Jan-13 19:44:36

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Welovecouscous Sat 12-Jan-13 21:48:24

Good op - please don't take him back to cm sad

How hmm that she never told you the other child was related to her. That alone is quite off IMHO!

Filibear if DH and I got to the situation you are in and DH wouldn't budge on moving DS I'm afraid I would overrule him for the safety and welfare of my child.

I have had a very nasty/scary experience with a CM when my eldest was a wee tot yet I had ignored my insticts prior to that final incident in the hope that it would get better.

It IS difficult when trying not to upset the applecart at work but your child has to come first.

Welovecouscous Sat 12-Jan-13 22:00:28

I agree with Sparkle about instincts. They are your friend and I wish I had listened to my instincts that the nanny was not bonding with DS properly.

ReetPetit Mon 14-Jan-13 19:23:31

what's happening filibear? hope everything is ok...

minderjinx Mon 14-Jan-13 20:01:59

What did the doctor say?

tiggersreturn Tue 15-Jan-13 12:48:44

You have to listen to your instincts.

They are saying to you loudly and clearly that you should remove ds from there asap.

Your dh does not seem to want any change as that will mean inconvenience and obligation to do things on his part. Sorry for putting it like this but this is what it boils down to in most dhs.

You need to decide if you are comfortable in keeping him there another day. If not you need to remove him immediately as you will not forgive yourself if something happens.

Trust is essential. If that is lost you cannot continue the relationship unless both sides are prepared to rebuild it. From your telling the CM does not appear to believe there is a problem with this.

You know best how to get your dh on side but if you present this as an issue of our child is in danger, he needs to be rescued, we do it immediately and share childcare until resolved. Ways to bridge the gap are his rights to unpaid leave, emergency childcare (he has them too!). Flexible working at home for 1 or both of you for short periods. Emergency childcare services (they cost a fortune but if this is to cover a week or so may be doable), any friends who can oblige. The issues that need to be determined are:

1. Is he safe where he currently is?
2. If he's not, where will we send him?

The answer to 2 is wherever suits his needs best and all options should be considered, nursery, cm, mixture of the 2 whatever.

If the answer to 1 is no and your dh disagrees then one position you could take is if he remains it will be at your insistence and against my express wishes, you will be responsible for anything that goes wrong and are now responsible for everything to do with the CM including drop offs and pick ups. He may see sense with an ultimatum of that type.

I had a friend with a similar situation with a nanny where her gut very firmly told her to get rid and her dh, who had started a new job, told her equally firmly that he couldn't help and she shouldn't rock the boat. In the end after a worse incident she did terminate the relationship but regretted not having done it earlier. After she fired her, my friend also discovered worse things that were occurring which would have more than justified the earlier dismissal.

Good luck with your decision.

fivesacrowd Tue 15-Jan-13 13:33:23

Always trust you instincts. Telling Dh that he is responsible won't put your mind at rest. I'm a cm and would be horrified if any of my mindees only got nappy rash when in my care. I'd be changing much more frequently and smothering in nappy cream. As for accidents, she should know how they happened or admit that she didn't see what happened and explain how she's going to watch your son more carefully in the future. Do you get a daily diary? For her sake as well as yours she should check for injuries etc when your dc arrives and record things like blisters etc.
My dsis had bad experience with cm (who had previously been her friend and who she thought she knew well). Gut instinct told her something wasn't right and so she removed her dd, then found out her suspicions were right.
Makes me mad to hear about rubbish cm, most of us are lovely and caring. Hope you sort something else out soon.

JustFabulous Tue 15-Jan-13 14:09:50

Your husband makes me so angry. His child is being neglected at best and he does not give a shit. I'd be looking for another husband as well as a childminder.

TBH You need to take your child to the GP today and get everything documented so that there is an official record of everything that happens so that when it comes out your CM has been bleeping your child then there is evidence.

From what you have said I can see the CM taking it out on our child as you have had the nerve to criticise her and question what she has done.

Welovecouscous Tue 15-Jan-13 14:21:14

Filibear, please update us sad

filibear Tue 15-Jan-13 19:48:38

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Blondeshavemorefun Tue 15-Jan-13 20:07:52

are you saying filibear you have now removed ds permanently - or just for a week or two why you work out your next childcare arrangement

filibear Tue 15-Jan-13 20:32:30

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Welovecouscous Tue 15-Jan-13 21:38:23

I think you've done the right thing, fili.

So good to hear your DH agreed with you.

tiggersreturn Tue 15-Jan-13 22:48:11

Well done! You did the right thing. If you don't feel you can handle cm alone take dh with you.

Lala29 Tue 15-Jan-13 22:54:32

So glad to hear your baby is safe now with you and your DH is on side. Good luck with the search, I'm sure you'll find something far better soon.
Hope work are supportive and please let us know what happens when you talk to the CM.

FamiliesShareGerms Tue 15-Jan-13 23:23:41

Sounds good, filibear. Can't remember if I said upthread, but do try www.childcare.co.uk - I've found CM and nannies through there easily

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Tue 15-Jan-13 23:36:31

Filibear did you end up going to the dr about the rash/marks?

Blondeshavemorefun Wed 16-Jan-13 00:30:36

Glad it's permanent

Well done smile

ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee Wed 16-Jan-13 00:45:17

You have done the right thing. Hold tight x

JustFabulous Wed 16-Jan-13 07:55:52

Do you believe her about the norovirus?

Is it possible she has read your thread?

ReetPetit Wed 16-Jan-13 13:18:44

well done filibear. i have no doubt you have done the right thing. i had an awful feeling about your ds being there - she sounds dreadful, really neglectful. don't worry about your dh, he sounds like he is just scared of change. you have done completely the right thing. Good Luck in finding someone/somewhere else! x

filibear Wed 16-Jan-13 18:22:26

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JustFabulous Wed 16-Jan-13 18:24:27

Good luck with your next child care appointment.

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