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Childcare is to be deregulated(60 Posts)
It has just been announced that childcare will be deregulated via the Children and Families Bill
Government 'plans to deregulate childcare' in children and families bill
By Gabriella Jozwiak, Monday 12 November 2012
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Childcare regulations may be relaxed by an amendment to the children and families bill, CYP Now has learned.
Deregulation could mean ratios of childminders to children would decrease. Image: Martin Figura
Decreased ratios of staff to children and lower qualification requirements could be included in the legislation, according to a source working closely with the coalition governments childcare commission.
The source said a form of deregulation would be added to the bill that would affect childminders and group level childcare providers, but they were unsure about the exact form the deregulation might take.
The early years sector has expressed concern at the proposal, which follows suggestions for deregulation made by childrens minister Elizabeth Truss earlier this year.
Any form of watering down of regulation and ratios or qualifications can only be damning to good quality early years childcare, said Denise Burke, director of United for All Ages and the Good Care Guide.
If we were talking about taking away some of the burden of registration and paperwork required for inspection, that would be a good thing, but if were talking about regulation on ratios or dumbing down of qualifications, that would be a very bad move.
Parliament is expected to introduce the bill in January 2013, meaning any amendments would have to be announced before that date.
The National Childminding Association's (NCMA) director of professional standards, Stuart Turner, said he hoped this would provide an opportunity to debate the amendment before it becomes law.
"As our members are very concerned about possible changes to childminding regulations and ratios in England, if the rumours about the bill are true, NCMA would welcome the scrutiny that a parliamentary process would ensure," said Turner.
June OSullivan, chief executive of the London Early Years Foundation, said she was unsurprised by the suggestion.
Our minister is quite determined to take this through even though I dont think the sector is supportive of this and I dont think its in the sectors interests, she said, referring to Truss.
Truss has suggested adopting a model of childcare regulation similar to that used in the Netherlands in a paper for the think-tank Centre Forum.
There is a political drive for this in terms of trying to make childcare more cost effective, but it may well prove to be more costly as it did in Holland, continued OSullivan.
The Department for Education has been contacted for a response.
it's still a may as opposed to a will
we're still none the wiser, eh, SIGH
The original article (an editorial item on the Children and Young People Now web site, not an official announcement) is here.
Well we'll know on the 4th December but I am fairly sure what the news will be...
The article I have posted is from CYPN...I put the whole thing rather than the link
No it is not confirmed but CYPN is a good source and reliable...we will hear soon as Fraktion says...
Truss also gave her first interview to Nursery World
I know that we have to be patient and wait until we get confirmation but I would like to know what parents in this forum feel about the possibility of leaving their children in 'unregulated' childcare or, as we are led to believe that deregulation will lower costs, will this be more important ?
Italiana chat, AIBU or in the news get more traffic and might be better places to post. Nannies, CMs and those with an interest tend to hang out here.
well, I fail to see how much difference it will really make to parents.
Regulation does not a good childminder make IMO, and there is currently far too much emphasis on qualification etc, to the extent that childminders are now pretty much preschool teachers. As a parent I wouldn't need that - I would require someone to look after my child not a preschool level qualified teacher...
Ultimately parents looking for the best level of childcare will know the right questions to ask. "how many children do you currently look after," etc - it doesn't take regulation to establish that.
I know of plenty of childminders I wouldn't entrust with the care of my dogs let alone a child, all of whom are regulated. so IMO it's the person that makes the good childcarer not the level of qualification achieved.
Fraktion...I am sorry I don't know what AIBU means...I think I need to access a list with all abbreviations...sorry my skills lie elsewhere not IT
Wannabe...you have a choice who you entrust your children to...rightly so
Deregulation will give less guarantee that the c/ms is good at caring...regulation means that we are accountable
Lets be honest here, Truss is deregulating to 'save money' and aiming this at working mothers, as if c/ms were not,...it may also mean that she may want to cut red tape as a form of deregulation, much of it introduced by the present DfE in addition to the huge waste of funding that duplicates everything and no one accounts for
Do you really know the right questions to ask? I would expect more that just how many children I care for?
As an experienced c/m, like many here, I would find it difficult to just care for a child...care and education go hand in hand and also offended that you may not recognise that some c/ms are very committed to the care and education of your children and have achieved qualifications and degrees to raise standards
I have also seen mothers who struggle with parenting skills...it does not make them bad mothers
Does this relate to childminders, or is it childcare across the board?
Please do not quote me on this but I think it will start with c/ms...I hope that NDNA and PLA will come out with statements soon, although I think they already know....we were in line to be shot first!!!
NCMA has just said we need to wait until it is confirmed...nothing is clear from the artcle
I've been a child minder and I've used childminders as a parent.
I wouldn't use an unregistered child minder.
I want a child minder who:
- has been checked
- has had their home safety checked
- has had CRBs done (I know these's aren't a guarantee but better than no checks at all)
- has done at least the basics in terms of courses (paediatric first aid, child protection, level 2 at least in childcare)
- is insured
- sticks to small ratios
- follows procedures
- views themselves as a professional running a business.
Currently you only get help with childcare if you are using a registered provider. Will this change? Will you get childcare help regardless of what provider you choose? Will childcare help be scrapped/pared down?
AIBU - am I being unreasonable. It's quite a high traffic area of mumsnet.
I think the entity formerly know as NCMA and CMs, and the rest if the sector, need to be clear on what regulation is, what it does and why it exists. It's not about EYFS or mini nurseries. It's about the people who look after children knowing first aid, having an idea of what a CM dies before they start caring for children, being accountable by holding insurance and providing a SAFE environment. That is the core purpose if regulation and that is what must not be touched.
I'd be interested to see how any deregulation affects childcare vouchers.
I couldn't disagree more with wannaBe. With a few exceptions, most parents do not know what to look for and what to ask.
A local nursery has just had an appalling OFSTED inspection - their 2nd, with no evidence of having attempted to address issues raised in the first. Parents had stated they were happy with the nursery and their children loved attending. Since OFSTED, the majority have taken their children out of that nursery: they had no idea that their children were at risk (no first aiders) and their learning and development was actually inhibited by poor practice. They didn't realise that the nursery was breaking basic regulations until they read that damning report.
I have had prospective parents ask me what questions they should ask.
Do you realise that, under deregulation, this nursery would still be providing its poor care and parents would be completely unaware of what was going on?
Will be watching with interest. Just looking into having a regular shared childminding on a rota basis with my NCT pals and the amount of red tape is scary...
Does deregulation mean no regulation? I'm a bit shocked if it means that any old person can set themselves up and call themselves a childminder with no CRB check or safety checks. Is that what it does mean?
Just looking into having a regular shared childminding on a rota basis with my NCT pals and the amount of red tape is scary
If there is no payment involved then there shouldn't be any red tape. Who is telling you to jump through what hoops?
Is that what it does mean?
Nobody knows exactly what it means yet, although the situation you outline is highly unlikely.
Oops. MrAnchovy, it sounds like I have old information. I am going to look into this again. Previously we were advised to consider becoming a registered childminders by the council, but it seems no longer relevant. Just checked on ofstead's web....
I think that there has been enough information to understand deregulation
It will either be an agency or 'less regulation' by cutting red tape
See Truss' interview for Nursery World where I think she is giving hints...soon to be published as her proposals
How would this effect us following EYFS etc? Will will still be inspected. Think it's time for me to leave
I'm a parent who uses a childminder and haven't the faintest idea what's going on. I've read the interview in nursery world and am none the wiser. What does 'an agency' mean? That childminders will have to sign up to agencies? What red tape is there to cut (ofsted inspections?). From Jan will my childminder suddenly be allowed to take 5 children at a time?
What does 'an agency' mean?
We don't know until the details are announced
That childminders will have to sign up to agencies?
We don't know until the details are announced
What red tape is there to cut (ofsted inspections?).
Yes, although the evidence and opinions point overwhelmingly towards keeping an inspection regime. There are also the requirements imposed on Childminders who want to access Early Years Funding by Local Authority Networks (the free 15 hours for 3 and 4 year olds and also the new funding for 2 year olds). And planning departments. Food hygiene. Data protection act. Requirement to follow the whole EYFS regardless of whether a child is with you 4 hours a week or full time. There's lots...
From Jan will my childminder suddenly be allowed to take 5 children at a time?
Childminders are already allowed to care for up to 6 under 8s, but I assume you mean under 5s. Any change of that kind would require new legislation which will take time and require further consultation, so IMHO there will be no major changes in that short a timescale or without the approval of parliament.
Those who think they know what's coming should bear in mind that politicians work by 'positioning' announcements. This means that before an official announcement they may give briefings 'overplaying' what is coming - then when the real thing comes out they hope that everyone will breathe a sigh of relief. Or they may 'underplay' it by making general statements that cover a wide range of possibilities so that when it comes out and everyone says "this is terrible" they can point back at the briefings and say "but we told you this was coming". Or they may play it down the middle to gauge the reaction - if it is not too bad they will go back and toughen things up, but if there is an outcry they may have a rethink.
Or they may do all three at different times - look back over Truss's actions over the past six months and see if you can work out when she is doing what.
Noblegiraffe as a parent you should write in to Truss and ask her just that....all this is to address parents concerns about cost of childcare but there are also other worries including how many children we can care for and Mr Anchovy has addressed that
As previousy said some c/ms caring for 5 are now reconsidering however it is not compulsory
I do have a rough idea about agencies because Truss gave these to us at our meeting....but we have to wait and see
Mr Anchovy Red tape is not just what you have outlined...there is much more and it has increased since this govt took office...the ones who can tell you are c/ms experiencing it first hand...neither Data Protection nor planning are so big that cannot be done away with but red tape has to relate to what is unnecessary to keep children safe...
I wonder what your c/ms clients feel...for me red tape is also Terms and Conditions imposed by LAs and representing associations that takes away independence and the right to reflect on what is best for my practice...would be great to compare
We seem to have arrived at a point when this needs to be addressed recently and Truss has mentioned some in her interview...hope she carries them out
This is why childcare needs to be regulated.
Hmm where does it say that this woman was not subject to any regulation?
I think this is a first for me but if there were a like button I would have use it, Zuleika. Spot on.
That whole situation has a whole lot more than lack of regulation going on.
A lot of parent (and child careers) support reduced red tape (i. e. deregulation). There is a place for some kind of inspection. But there is also a widely held view that OFSTED's powers are too great, and they often overstep the mark withouth any consequence. There is an e-petition (which is unfortunately now closed so I can't sign it) asking for the OFSTED quango to be shut down.
I wonder... How many people work for ofsted, and what does it cost to run annually. Perhaps the budget should be slashed and that money given to primary schools so they could reduce the class size? Or maybe back to parent so they can pay for their childcare? Or, hey, how bout this.... Let us keep our child benefit.
The issues people have with OFSTED frequently aren't related to regulation though. They are just enforcing badly worded legislation which obliges CMs and out of school clubs to implement EYFS.
Collective childcare had been regulated for a long time, since the 19th century. Up until recently the regulation was minimal - it concerned who was looking after children, how many and where to ensure that children weren't placed at risk. Then some busybodies decided that it should be compulsory for all children to be educated and observed every single waking moment and it all went downhill.
CMs generally are, and should be, safety conscious and that is partly down to the requirements to assess risk and prove that they've done so.
I use a nursery for my two and work in a heavily regulated profession myself. Yes paperwork can be a pain in the arse and nobody enjoys inspections but I am not in favour of deregulation of child care AT ALL.
I actually think what we are talking about is a degree of reduced regulation. I don't think anyone would be in favour of none at all. But I do think what we have now (EYFS is a good example) is a bit OTT.
Reading this has made me glad I resigned from childminding. All the work us cms put into our jobs is going to waste simply because of de-regulation.
I have NVQ Level 3, certificate in Paediatric First Aid, numerous training courses attended and for what?
I am now working part-time, cannot afford a childminder even if I worked full-time as we don't get any childcare help but if I was looking for one I would still want he/she to have some sort of qualification(NVQ Level 2/NNEB, Safeguarding children and First Aid) to mind my son if he was a baby or toddler.
I don't think the pay child minders get reflects the level of hoop jumping they have to do.
I know of lots of brilliant child minders who left child minding a few years back due to ofsted inspections etc. not that they had bad ofsteds, just the stress of the process.
There most certainly should be some regulations, paediatric first aid being a must, but I think if parents want a nursery type setting and all that goes with it, they should pay nursery prices. I think some of the regulations are prohibitive and it doesn't surprise me that there is a lack of childminder vacancies in most areas.
Ive known child minders who had all the right qualifications etc, but weren't especially good IMO. All the right boxes being ticked doesn't necessarily mean they are better at their job.
I would want someone whos home is safe, who has nice toys and books, who takes my child out to the park to feed the ducks etc, who feeds them adequately and who is kind and caring. Basically someone who will do the same sort of things I would do with my child. I would want my pre-schooler cared for not taught.
Oh and I wouldn't choose a childminder who had dogs, but I know that is just my own preference and not everyone would mind a dog in the setting.
Yes, I agree with the regulation you have listed, amber. But some of the things ofsted rate childminders on is not aligned with what I would consider important. For example, their nutritional guidelines aren't nearly as strict as mine. But some of their disciplinary guidelines I think are a bit mambo palm by. I once had a childminder who got marked down for having a "naughty stool". And in my house the naughty step is very well used. I think a bit of time out is a good thing. But OFSTED said it was demoralising. I want my child to be taught right from wrong. I don't want a teenager who thinks their are no consequences for his/her behaviour.
So basic first aid, health and safety, and a natural knack for children are all on my list. But OFSTED's list is in some respects quite different.
Can I just say that I really hate the apple spell checker. Mamby pamby is what I meant to say about their disciplinary guidelines.
I can't really come to a proper opinion without the full details but I think I am generally in favour.
I used a CM for a period of time, it was very expensive. For the school run to drop off at school £15 (with holiday pay although it was a term time contract ). There was no 'education' going on, dd was sitting in a car.
For something like that I would rather pay someone with no qualifications, to walk her to school with her own children. There are mums who would like a bit over extra cash doing that.
When I looked at nurseries and preschool both my children attended places that had qualified primary school teachers there. I made that decision without ofsted.
I don't think the case in that link has got anything to do with regulation tbh.
I'm sure if Ofsted rocked up and asked her 'true or false, it's ok to go to the shops and leave 7 little children, including at least 4 under 3 home by themselves?' she'd be able to say all the right things.
In the same way that someone with a CRB check can abuse children. Someone with a first aid qualification can panic in an emergency. Someone with an NVQ in childcare or a degree in early years can sit them in front of the TV and ignore them all day.
I think there is an over reliance on regulation to the point that people have stopped using their own common sense.
There is a vast different between a 'naughty step' and 'time out'
Naughty is a word good and qualified practiitoners rarely use, the naughty step is humiliating..see Steve Biddulph or Jennie Lindon
Time out is for reflection on actions and consequences and you never leave a child alone at time out but talk sensibly and encourage good behaviour
Ofsted do not have a list..neverseen one in 5 inspections, they judge on good practice and behaviour management I hope?
We do not have nutritional guidelines just feed the children a well balanced diet which is learnt at NVQ3...mine is mainly freshly cooked and mediterrenean= healthy and yummy!
'Ofsted do not have a list'
they must have some sort of list/guidelines/rules to work from, how else do they know what is currently considered 'good practice'.
In reception at my kids school they have a time out chair
The kids all come out saying x sat on the naughty chair today
It's a punishment, like standing on the wall at break time or having your name put on the 'sad cloud' but I'm not sure I would go so far as to say its humiliating!
Well, I think a child who has been naughty should be told so. How else will they understand what they have done wrong? Children are very resilient and they can only learn from us if we are honest with them. There seems to be all kinds of hysteria regarding the word "naughty" in childcare and education. It has been replaced with the word "silly". So children grow up thinking silly means naughty, but they get the same message on their way to the
naughty silly step.
When I use the word silly to represent its true meaning, it's very clear my children think I am cross and that it is a bad thing. So, I tell them what silly really means.
Incidentally "time out" is as far as I know the American translation to the British "naughty step".
These things are a bit trivial in my view. I don't need ofsted to regulate them for me. As a parent these are questions I would ask before engaging a childminder. But what I would choose may not be right for someone else's children.
OFSTED's nutritional standards are frankly lacking, and on that point, they should raise their game.
Ofsted have a set of criteria by which they judge practice which is set in the EYFS requitrements...we ourselves can check they are using them appropriately when grading us and challenge if necessary
Repeat: time out and naughy chair are different, read some of the books then discuss further
You can have time out sitting on a chair...yes that is usually the practice and the aim is to talk about what happened as long as you know what triggered the behaviour (ABC of behaviour guideline)
Children should not be punished and are not silly,they need guidance to learn good behaviour
If you repeatedly have to use your 'naughty step' your strategy for behaviour management needs reviewing...try something more positive, I have used it just 3 times in years of practice
I would never give my children to anyone who uses the naughty anything! what you have described above are actually humiliating tactics...sad to hear parents do not challenge the school
Ofsted do not have nutritional standards...can I see them please, I use my own which compare favourably with those used by parents
Knowing how to feed kids properly is not rocket science
The thing I find absurd about the EYFS is that it was a way of formally spelling out what good, involved parents do with their children in a domestic setting. The idea was that that model would be carried into institutional settings such as nurseries and daycare so they were replicating what went on in homes. To then carry that back to CMs in a formal way when it's what good CMs do anyway is - to me - absurd. Yes to keeping children safe, to good nutrition, a stimulating environment, knowledge of first aid. No to pages of assessments, planning, observations, feedback and so on.
I wish we had a "like" button, as I would "like" Zuleika's post. This is exactly what I feel.
I cm, I love what I do and I love the children I look after. They are treated as extended family, they receive love, praise and disclipine equally. My home is safe, comfy and a pleasant place to be. I'm an intelligent woman, risks have been assessed and mitigated. I am NOT a teacher. I provide learning experiences, challenges and encourage children to try harder, to succeed at things just as I do with my own dd. The files of paperwork are above and beyond.
OFSTED have no nutritional guidelines or standards. It comes under the rather nebulous area of healthy children/lifestyle which it obviously is part of. I don't see how they could insist on any kind of standard though. It was hard getting school dinners sorted and they have dedicated catering staff. I don't remember there being anything on the ICO about nutrition though. IMO if it's that important it goes on the most basic level of training that CMs receive. Which tells us a lot about what is important now looking at CYPOP5....
So nutrition is high on my list, but not ofsted's. other stuff is high on their list, but not mine. So, do they regulated against too much? I think probably yes.
I don't need my 2 or 3 year old to be scored against EYFS. And I don't wish to pay the childminder to fill out unnecessary paperwork. I would far prefer she was sitting on the floor playing.
Some of the stuff OFSTED regulates is good, appropriate, and even necessary, but not all of it. So, if I knew more about the alleged plans for deregulation I may well support it.
Our naughty step is a place the children go when they talk back to the au pair to sit quietly, when they come off we discuss why they were sent there and they apologise to au pair. I'm not sure how that differs from time out.
I also don't think it is your or ofsted's place to pass judgement on my parenting skills.
I think children are silly, and that is good. Foolishness of a trivial nature, with an element of humour. My toddler is often silly. He makes us laugh, and then he laughs with us. That is what silly really means.
'Children should not be punished'
Do you believe adults should be punished? If adults should be punished when they're naughty, at what age should that start? 12, 18, 21? Do you think that it would come as quite a shock to realise that bad behaviour carries a punishment?
OFSTED have no nutritional guidelines or standards.
To be clear, Ofsted don't have ANY guidelines or standards. They simply inspect and enforce according to the regulations that are laid down by government. The regulations that are laid down are mostly about being a "suitable person" (e.g. CRB check, training), limits on numbers and on education (the EYFS). Not nutrition, or even childcare (education is NOT childcare).
If you don't like the EYFS, it is the Department for Education that you need to take this up with. If you want standards on nutrition or childcare you need to lobby government for them.
The thing I find absurd about the EYFS is that it was a way of formally spelling out what good, involved parents do with their children in a domestic setting. The idea was that that model would be carried into institutional settings such as nurseries and daycare so they were replicating what went on in homes.
Why do you say that, I don't think that it is true at all, in fact I think the opposite is true: the EYFS aimed to look at best practice in an institutional setting.
I was told that on my EYFS training course when they were going through where it had come from and the logic behind it.
Mr a, the point on my nutritional requirements was that OFSTED and I am not aligned on what is important. So is it right they have so much control and I have so little.
I'm not sure their current (large) scope brings value to the table. I think their powers are too many and a bit of deregulation might be a good thing. I would need to know more about what the proposals actually are. But I suspect I might support them, especially if they involve a reduction the powers OFSTED currently have, and all too often abuse.
I was told that on my EYFS training course when they were going through where it had come from and the logic behind it.
Sounds to me like the trainer was telling you what you wanted to hear to get you to buy in to it
As I understand it the EYFS was mostly developed from the Curriculum Guidance for the Foundation Stage which was the previous guidance for nursery schools.
Abslolutely correct Mr Anchovy...I can see a copy of the Curiculum Guidance on my shelves!!!...now I am losing th will to live!!!
Careful, Italiana, you can get your childminding registration snapped away in the blink of an eye for that sort of talk.
Sounds to me like the trainer was telling you what you wanted to hear to get you to buy in to it ... the EYFS was mostly developed from the Curriculum Guidance for the Foundation Stage
WEB of LIES!!
The parents are generally happy with school discipline. The intake includes children from a wide range if backgrounds with suffering expectation if behaviour, it is useful for the school to be clear about their expectations. There are also complex reward systems for achievement and good behaviour.
Anyway the point I was trying to make us that you can call it whatever you want but the small children quickly catch on its for 'naughty' behaviour. Not just mine who hear the word at home but those from very laid back homes and homes where no English is really used too.
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