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NCMA will become PACEY

(48 Posts)
Italiana Fri 09-Nov-12 11:39:42

NCMA has announced their new name will be PACEY = Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years

Happy or not?

fraktion Fri 09-Nov-12 12:12:40

I laughed out loud when I saw that. The name is still.

It's also a hugely retrograde step for CMs who won't have anyone specifically protecting their interests any more. Focused is good, scattergun is bad.

fraktion Fri 09-Nov-12 12:13:10

The name is silly, not still.

FeelingOld Fri 09-Nov-12 12:24:50

Its not the name i voted for when we went to regional conference, am not keen on it i must say.

HSMM Fri 09-Nov-12 12:59:14

The old name didn't mean much and the new one doesn't either.

nannynick Fri 09-Nov-12 13:03:29

I wonder how much rebranding is costing and if it will really see a dramatic rise in membership numbers.
Maybe they hope nursery workers will join and more nannies.

FeelingOld Fri 09-Nov-12 13:23:28

I can see why a nanny might want to join but can't see so much why nursery workers would, but that's just my opinion...... I voted for the name that didn't have 'early years' in the title as i feel this makes it look like we only care for under 5's and also in a few years 'early years' may not be the words used to officially describe this age group iyswim.

Akasa Fri 09-Nov-12 13:24:36

This is not a good outcome. There needs to be be specific reference to childminders in the name. I do not welcome the broadening out of the membership at all. Registered childminders should be represented within their own profession. Like fraktion, I agree that this is hugely retrograde step.

fraktion Fri 09-Nov-12 13:37:14

The old name didn't mean much and the new one doesn't either.

I disagree. The old one didn't make a shiny acronym but it was pretty clear what it did. This one is all woolly round the edges.

for some reason this came into my mind.....

Italiana Fri 09-Nov-12 15:21:30

NCMA are also widening the membership for others in childcare to join: nannies, preschools, day nurseries and other professionals
We voted against this as they are well represented and we wanted something that concentrated on c/ms....also NCMA nanny does welcome them

We also voted against a new name (in the survey for rebranding 1500 c/ms responded) but we were told no matter what the objections it would happen
It was also suggested keeping NCMA but having 'umbrella covers' such as NCMA nanny or NCMA preschools etc...but no!

Neither NDNA or PLA are rebranding and NCMA should have paused and maybe approached this again at a later much going on now who wants a new name right now when deregulation is much more important to spend money on?

I am very as NCMA moves on I wonder how many c/ms will also move on to having no representation and being independent (I favour the last very much)

If any of you are on NCMA Local the news is there...I wonder who will fire the first shot of disppointment?

fraktion Fri 09-Nov-12 15:51:24

I think NCMA will lose members to UKCMA. It'll be like when PANN merged with Voice all over again unless they can persuade other organisations to merge (which they won't).

Their head of business strategy needs a slap. They've just launched things like NCMA local and they're going to rebrand without allowing those initiatives time to bed in.

I don't trust them with nannies. They say CYPOP5 is suitable to register with OFSTED but it isn't as it doesn't cover the common core. They e not done their research there. Plus they require nannies to be OFSTED reg which BAPN don't so that's a sector of the market cut out.

What experience are they basing the expansion to nurseries on? Are they headhunting from the NDNA or PLA? How are the funding that? By taking from the insufficient money they have to support CMs already?

Also it just reminds me of the drip from Dawson's creek.

MrAnchovy Fri 09-Nov-12 16:38:19

They say CYPOP5 is suitable to register with OFSTED but it isn't as it doesn't cover the common core

They say it's suitable to register as a childminder too (and Ofsted seem to agree) even though it doesn't cover the EYFS as is now required.

It's a mess.

MrAnchovy Fri 09-Nov-12 16:47:09

The problem is that the NCMA is too big to survive if it restricts itself to childminders. It spends over £17 million pounds a year - that's over £300 for every childminder in England and Wales!

So as strategy goes, I suppose it makes sense to them. Just not to childminders sad

MrAnchovy Fri 09-Nov-12 16:57:52

It seems to me that there is a real need for some kind of not-for-profit organisation or Social Enterprise that has a focus only on childminders, that is really able to deliver services that they need.

It's not just the rebranding - the NCMA don't seem to react in the right way to anything that affects childminders commercially (I'm not qualified to speak on other issues like the EYFS).

Example - Data Protection Act registration. It is farcical that every childminder is required to pay £35 a year to the Information Commissioner's Office (see other threads). The NCMA's reaction has been to 'clarify that this is what is required by the regulations' - not to have used some of that £17m to run a campaign to get the regulations changed.

Italiana Fri 09-Nov-12 18:01:14

Mr Anchovy
17m is a lot of money. I have never seen any figures as to how NCMA spends its funding...I would love you have any of those lovely links hidden somewhere and to share?
The widening of membership is to survive financially...would they need it if they had 17m?

NDNA and PLA are not rebranding, I would like to know how they survive
I know they represent their members very very well but we would not fit in their membership and I don't believe they will fit in this new PACEY
Also remeber NCMA mship is £54 compared to £35 for PLA...why would they switch?

NCMA Local is funded by the DfE at does not work for many I'm afraid and the forum gets a revamp ever 5 minutes...another one due soon

UKCMA...not too sure there...we will see
We need a Union Mr Anchovy..fed up of paying money and little representation

Of course it could be they are preparing to become 'an agency'...we did ask at a recent meeting, the reply was 'definetely not'...I don't believe that

My personal view is that we should pay the ICO in line with everybody else, we always have to be 'different' and that is not an advantage...same with the Ofsted fee, NCMA argued for that to be so low...sorry it is a problem now and we are in deep trouble because of that

fraktion Fri 09-Nov-12 19:30:41

If they need to widen to survive financially that indicates they aren't pre-investing in their new membership and, more damning, aren't meeting the needs of their existing core members. Do it small, do it well, then expand. Repeat. They aren't doing what CMs need. Their expansion into nannies hasn't worked. Why are they going even bigger?

MrAnchovy Fri 09-Nov-12 19:33:35

Well the 2010/11 report and accounts are here: they aren't very exciting reading I'm afraid, I would have expected a chart or two at least.

It's worth considering the (entity formerly known as the) NCMA's objects - these are what it sets out to achieve:

(i) To promote the provision of facilities for the daily care, recreation and education of children and particularly of children under the age of 8 years and promote the observance of good standards of childminding by the parents of such children and all persons and organisations providing such facilities, and

(ii) to advance the education and training of childminders and other persons and organisations providing day care facilities for children and particularly of children under the age of 8 years and to conduct research into all aspects of the care, recreation and education of such children and publish the useful results of such research

Nothing in there about providing services that childminders want, or protecting their interests. And what does "promote the observance of good standards of childminding by the parents of such children" mean? That's just wrong.

Italiana Sat 10-Nov-12 08:17:35

Thank you Mr Anchovy...this is incredibly useful and worrying but it is March 2011 so I need to look for the latest March 2012 to see if it reflects the cuts in staff announced and in funding...there little difference between 2010/ was after that date that all changed

I have posted the same topic on NCMA Local and asking for NCMA to pause the rebranding until it is put to the members vote...the original survey had 1500 responses...not a mandate in my view and many are 'unclear' as to why rebranding is so important...if we are convinced by the board can then get on with it

If you feel strongly about this please add your voice

Italiana Sat 10-Nov-12 09:43:49

I have posted my reply and also written to NCMA chair asking for a 'pause' until we are clear about the reasons behind it
If you cannot access Local I will copy it here...please support

MrAnchovy Sat 10-Nov-12 10:05:40

need to look for the latest March 2012

They haven't published them yet. The last one was filed at Companies House on 10 October 2011 so you might have expected them, but they don't seem to be in a hurry to get them out.

asking for a 'pause' until we are clear about the reasons behind it

It's a bit late for that I'm afraid - they filed the change of name at Companies House on 1 November. They could always change it back...

Italiana Sat 10-Nov-12 10:10:10

Thank you Mr Anchovy
The announcement came out late afternoon yesterday

I am amazed that the members know less that you do...that is all I want: a clear reason behind it which we now assume is that they are preparing to become an agency by which they know deregulation is coming?

MrAnchovy Sat 10-Nov-12 11:27:44

Actually I think that if there is going to be an agency model imposed, the NCMA setting one up wouldn't be a bad thing. It would provide some competition for the big nursery chains, however I am concerned that the NCMA under any name are just not commercial enough to make it a success.

That's why I am looking at this too grin

I think you're wrong about this being behind the name change though, apart from anything else they couldn't run an agency as part of the charity it would have to be a trading subsidiary that could have a different name anyway.

I think they are changing the name because they cannot keep paying their 300+ staff from the income they can get from childminders.

Italiana Sat 10-Nov-12 12:03:34

Thank you again...I am probably wrong about many things...just started to connect a few things
The number of staff has been cut but until we get this year's report we won't know

If NCMA are going to be our agency or preparing for one the members would have backed this because NCMA is what we would prefer say to LAs but they had to be honest with us and spekk it out
Many c/ms complain it is becoming very commercial

Am I right in assuming that while we were campaigning against deregulation and the agency they were actually negotiating this with the DfE? hence the reason they did not back the e-petition

As an agency ...if that was to be...they would make money out of the 'fee' charged for being one...why would a preschool come under PACEY when PLA is excellent at representation

I could not find their application to change the company's name online but you say they did this on 1 Nov...not even NCMA shows
All very worrying and my fear c/ms will go along with whatever happens without raising any questions
The 2 recent messages from NCMA CEOs point to deregulation, NCMA knows a lot more than we are told and changing the name was not an option why consult and not just get on with it?

Italiana Sat 10-Nov-12 12:09:08

MR Anchovy...may ask what is your interest in this? you are very well informed...I get more from you than anywhere else

mindingalongtime Sat 10-Nov-12 12:20:04

I've been a member for 26 years and they haven't told me!

Other childminders have personally addressed emails! But then I don't expect anything from NCMA and probably even less from PACEY, just an increase in the membership fe to pay for the rebranding

fraktion Sat 10-Nov-12 12:39:30

I think NCMA are pushovers and it the Govt's pocket which is why they get so much funding.

Deregulation is probably coming, much as I wish it weren't and I would be happy to be proven wrong, and I suspect the unwillingness to rock the boat and actually carry out it's supposed mandate of representing CMs has played no small part in the decision. It's a bit 'oh well we're the biggest association and we have problem'. Yeah, but your members do!

nannynick Sat 10-Nov-12 12:50:28

Name change at companies house can be seen here.

MrAnchovy Sat 10-Nov-12 13:17:33

I am an accountant and I have a couple of clients who are childminders. Advising on regulation and governance is part of my job, so I know where to find information about charities, companies and government. I also have access to other information that is not published, through direct contact with government departments, services I pay to subscribe to and other sources.

...carry out it's supposed mandate of representing CMs - @fraction look again at the objects posted below. The NCMA doesn't set out to represent childminders, it sets out to "advance their education and training".

fraktion Sat 10-Nov-12 13:29:01

I did read it, and I've been aware for a while that what they say they do and what CMs believe they're joining them to do is different, hence 'supposed' as in people suppose that's what it is. Otherwise I'd have said its stated mandate, which is different, but most people take no notice of that.

Italiana Sat 10-Nov-12 15:48:32

Nannynick ..thanks for the link but it has a 'failure' message. Please can you post it again
Mr Anchovy that explains your knowledge

I assume we have to wait until DfE announces its proposals before thinking of what to do next and I will be able to hear more when I go to the conference with Truss on 4 Dec

Can we challenge the rebranding? can we ask for the financial report to be published...what in fact can we do if all along we have been fighting deregulation but it may have been in vain?

These are the questions I posted on NCMA I likely to get a response?

'Adding professional in front of Association does not mean we have a professional name....its members are the 'professionals' and have always been contrary to those who believe the introduction of the EYFS 2008 propelled us in that sphere

Can anyone explain 'why it had to happen' to:

- those who have been searching for the reason for rebranding but can only find one and that is NCMA preparing to be an 'agency' by which we 'assume' some deregulation is coming

- to those who know that the vast majority of c/ms 'voted' against rebranding

- to those who feel that '1500' replies to the survey is not a 'mandate' for the board to ignore our wishes

- to those who know this will cost a lot of money and use much valuable time when NCMA should concentrate on fighting deregulation

- to those who feel that the Board went against the wishes of its paying members who feel it is 'undemocratic'

- to those who asked why and were told it would happen anyway no matter what we voted.....

- to those who feel let down

- to those who voted against 'widening of the membership' but were ingnored

- to those who feel our representing association must act on the members' wishes

I am not an expert in these matters but I, as member, ask that NCMA 'pause' the rebranding and put it to the members vote, not a survey, giving clear reasons for rebranding, to seek a 'majority' mandate by which 51% of the membership gives authority to proceed because we are clear as to the reasons'

nannynick Sat 10-Nov-12 18:56:04

Clearly a link can't be posted, as it times out after a certain amount of time.
To find it, use Companies House Webcheck and search using National Childminding in the name field. Then click on the company registration number, then click Order Information On This Company. You then get a list of the documents, thus can see the date the name change was filed. If you want the actual document, it will cost I expect, I haven't gone that far as I doubt it will tell you anything you don't already know.

Italiana Sat 10-Nov-12 20:29:20

Thank you Nannynick...I was out when you put the link here therefore it had timed out by the time I got to it hours later...not as much of an expert in this field as you clearly are, my skills are in other areas!

I will try to follow your instructions...I do not need the document just to see the date the change was filed

MrAnchovy Sat 10-Nov-12 23:45:38

To be totally accurate, the name has not yet been changed.

There was an Annual General Meeting of the company on the 27 October (You wouldn't know about this, the only people entitled to attend are those who are recorded on the Register of Members, and these are only the Directors who are also the Trustees of the Charity. This is not an unusual arrangement for charities.)

At that meeting a conditional resolution was passed to change the name. This resolution does not take effect until the Joint Chief Executives (Catherine Farrell and Liz Bayram) decide that they are ready.

Documents recording that resolution were received at Companies House on 30 October and were recorded as filed on the 1 November.

So I was a bit premature saying they have already changed the name, they will have to file another document confirming that the condition has been met to finalise that. They may have done that already as it takes a couple of days for documents to appear in the public record.

MrAnchovy Sat 10-Nov-12 23:53:49

@fraktion ah yes, sorry I was missing your point. Unfortunately I suspect only a handful of the 30,000 childminder members of the NCMA (or is it less than that now?) actually know what the organisation the believe exists to represent them stands for. This is hardly helped by statements like "[the joint Chief Executives] also represent NCMA and home-based childcare to government, the media and other key stakeholders",

Do they really?

Italiana Sun 11-Nov-12 07:37:13

Thank you Mr Anchovy...this ties very well with the email received form CEOs, I am a volunteer for the Greater London, therefore got the email on 2 Nov before it was announced to all...

All makes sense now and I think there is a little time before 'implementation' which gives us a chance to get to hear what the DfE announces very shortly and whether it ties with rebranding and agency status for NCMA and our response to this !

Following the Q&A session on Sat 17 Nov I am now going to use the time between 12-1pm for a debate....hopefully we have news by DfE by then...we'll gather what the mood is then.

If you are still coming it may be of interest to you and feel free to raise any concerns on behalf of your c/ms clients

Italiana Mon 12-Nov-12 07:19:12

Is there anybody here who know how to access the NCMA constitution?
I can only find the model for those who wish to set up a grioup but not the NCMA one

Thank you for your help

MrAnchovy Mon 12-Nov-12 16:37:09

It is a public document available from Companies House for £1 (you want the latest version of the Articles of Association).

I have a copy but I am not sure if it would be a breach of copyright to publish it: send me a message here or via my website ( if you want it.

Italiana Mon 12-Nov-12 18:39:31

Got it this morning for, as you say, £ has been recently updated

Italiana Tue 13-Nov-12 07:38:49

NCMA has 37,000 members and yesterday Nursery World published an article apparently given to NW on Friday afternoon by NCMA shortly after the rebranding announcement
The article states that NCMA consulted with its 1500 members who voted for name change
I did ring NW corecting them NCMA has a m'ship of 37000 and that only 1500 replied to the survey
To me this is not a mandate

I have asked NCMA to pause and put the rebranding to the vote to get 51% consent, I have written to the chair and got no reply and received an unsatisfactory reply on NCMA Local forum
(I have written to the previous chair and always got an immediate reply)Does anyone know if a email needs to be at least acknowledged?

I have been to 2 meetings about this and I know the vast majority were against name change and widening of me this is not democratic
We usually have a conference in November and this would have come up and possibly voted down...the next one will have to be by February (according to the constitution) and by that time NCMA will have won its argument

I am really concerned at the lack of democratic process here..the only thing I know is that NCMA have opted for a name change to represent our professionalism even more...I am not convinced by that

Maybe time to reflect on whether thier membership is worth the money

HSMM Tue 13-Nov-12 09:11:18

I found it more surprising that I found out from Mumsnet Nursery World before anything came to me from NCMA. An all member email wouldn't have cost much.

HSMM Tue 13-Nov-12 09:12:33

Not surprised at all that NCMA decided to change their name with little or no support from its members. I shall be reconsidering my membership next time it comes up for renewal.

Italiana Tue 13-Nov-12 09:36:38

There is a very interesting debate in NCMA Local and I hope c/ms will be allowed their opinion and input on their experience
NCMA did send out emails Did you not receive yours?
NCMA also researched rebranding with 'non members' such as preschools and nurseries..however the result of this reasearch is not non members count more? and how many are queing up to join PACEY?
You are not the only one rebranding worth the loss of c/ms?

This is not the end because there are determinde c/ms to ensure this is not buried...hope you join us

mindingalongtime Tue 13-Nov-12 16:48:41

HSMM you and me both, I haven't been informed and In have been an NCMA member 26 years, I am totally disgusted with them

julieann606 Wed 20-Mar-13 14:49:36

As someone who was about to register with the NCMA (or now PACEY), I'm guessing I should reconsider? Are there really any benefits to it anymore? Please don't shoot me, but I'm actually a Nanny not a CM, but with all the changes etc going on with the government, I'm sure I'll go through the process they currently recommend for someone like me, only to find they change it all in less than a year! Thanks for you advice in advance.

fraktion Wed 20-Mar-13 15:26:41

Wouldn't bother with PACEY until you know how they'll turn out.

There's BAPN or Voice also open to nannies.

Tanith Wed 20-Mar-13 21:12:42

I'm pretty angry about the way the NCMA have handled the whole name change and have not appeared to represent our interests at all


I see Penny Tassoni is the new President. I like her a lot: she's one of the few Early Years authors that makes an effort to include childminders. So I'm on the fence at the moment.

mindingalongtime Thu 21-Mar-13 10:54:22

I'm leaving after 25 years, (10 spent doing county organisation too) they didn't even email me, though I am signed up for emails.

The name is awful, and they have lost touch with childminders completely, this is going to cost them dearly.

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