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Think this is going to end badly

(60 Posts)
Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 09:04:05

My boss has just given me a new contract to sign as current charge has now gone to school, I've put the whole sorry saga in Employment issues I was told that I would not be on call during the day when my charge was at school and that I would not be working school holidays. I was also encouraged to get another job that fitted in with this ie during school hours only. I was also told I could claim Time of in Lieu. Last week I told her I was not available for an INSET day as I had plans and also told her I was owed a certain number of hours of in lieu for overtime worked.

Last night she gave me my new contract

“Your employers normal days of work are M-F for 50 hours. Your normal days of work are M-F for 25 hours. You may be required to work such additional hours as are reasonably necessary for the proper performance of your duties and meeting the needs of the family. Extra payment will not be made for any additional hours worked”

"Your employer has the right to vary your working hours and days in accordance with the family needs”

I don't want to sign it. Which means effectively I am handing in my notice of 4 weeks... this is going to end so badly sad My other issue is I am supposed to be doing 3 weeks proxy parenting and now that shes turned round like this I don't want to sad

I am a live in nanny so effectively when I hand in my notice on Monday (unless she says something over the weekend) then I am making myself homeless and will have no job.

Sorry for venting I just feel like my backs up against a wall.

I don't know anything about being or employing a Nanny but that sounds crap. she is effectively saying you will only get paid for 25 hours even though you may actually do up to 50!

So sorry for you but perhaps you will find a new family who are willing to pay you what you are worth. Good luck.

Just read your other thread. It also says you are expected to cover extra hours as and when. How then are you supposed to get an additnal job during the day time??? She sounds very unreasonable and demanding.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 09:20:18

In effect it could be more mock - she often goes away and last week I did 72 additional hours on top of my basic 25 hours.

Felicitywascold Sat 13-Oct-12 09:23:17

72 shock

Sorry Photo, but this woman is not suddenly going to turn into a reasonable employer... Have you got somewhere you can go?

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 09:25:50

If I give my 4 weeks notice I have enough money to move into a flatshare - plenty in our city at reasonable cost - have savings so could afford that until I got another job - may have to go back to nurseries for a while but that would be ok.

WineOhWhy Sat 13-Oct-12 09:26:38

That is constructive dismissal -she cannot unilaterally amend the contract. That means you are probably entitled to more than your 4 weeks notice as you should have an unfair dismissal claim. How long have you worked for them?

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 09:32:08

15 months.

How would it be unfair / constructive dismissal?

nannynick Sat 13-Oct-12 09:34:35

The previous job is being made redundant isn't it? What they are proposing is a new job, so you don't have to take it.
As you are live-in, do you have somewhere to move to and could you survive without a job for a while.

Could you confirm what country you are in as employment rights vary.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 09:39:18

I'm in England.

I spoke to NCMA and they said it's a new job
I spoke to ACAS and they said it wasn't it was just an ammendment to the contract and not a new job
My employer apparently also sought legal advice and they also said I wasn't being made redundant/this wasn't a new job

As above I would be able to find a flat share pretty quickly - need to be in this town as I am at university here. I have enough savings to last a fair while but have seen lots of nurseries hiring at the moment so could at least do that until I found a nanny job again.

insancerre Sat 13-Oct-12 09:45:05

Walk away.
I doubt she will find anyone new to sign that contract either.
She has got a bloody cheek!

Runoutofideas Sat 13-Oct-12 09:46:17

I'm sure the bit about doing additional hours for no pay is illegal. Have you asked for advice on that part of the contract? I would get out, regardless. She's clearly not reasonable.

minderjinx Sat 13-Oct-12 09:51:55

I would doubt that the new contract terms would be held to be reasonable and fair. Whether it is a new contract or a varaition to the old one depends I suppose on what terms you have already agreed, but I would certainly refer it all to NCMA for formal written legal advice. I think in your position I would not sign the new contract and would let your employer know that you propose to continue to work to your existing contract in the meantime while seeking legal advice yourself. Good luck.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 09:52:11

I would say you need extra time to think about it and just drag it out until you find a nice new job. I would ask for a reference up front and say you might have to look around for a proper full time job. Be nice as pie about it.

She's really being excessively unreasonable, it might be because she is up against it financially or it might be because she's just mean. But I would very tempted to drag it out until SHE has the difficult choice - ie sack you and chuck you out, which she will find really hard. Don't do it to yourself. Wait for HER to do it.

THe very fact there's disagreement means I think it's a grey area of constructive dismissal.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 09:54:36

She is going to find herself on really difficult ground when it comes to sacking you. I don't think she will want to risk an unfair dismissal claim, however much reassurance she's had.

If you want to stay in the job, and if the relationship can survive this, think about what YOU want and can live with - ie make demands yourself as part of a new contract. To me, it sounds impossible to work round her demands. But maybe not to you.

BoffinMum Sat 13-Oct-12 09:55:01

Not a good situation. She's not playing fair. Walk away would be my advice.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 09:57:41

So do I

* tell her Monday morning that I am not happy with the contract and why
* don't tell her anything and look for a new job - which I have been doing
* give my 4 weeks notice and just get out of there because I already resent her and I know I won't be feeling any nice thoughts towards her for the foreseeable future

insancerre Sat 13-Oct-12 09:58:54

The trouble with still working to the old contract is that the op might not get paid for the hours she has worked. If the employer is as mean as she sounds there is the real risk that she won't play fair.
My advice would be to get out now while things are still friendly.
Like you said, op, things are not going to end well.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 10:07:36

Don't sign up to anything. Say you need more time to think about it. She can't pay you less because you are still under the old contract. If she does pay you less you can either take legal advice, or simply undertake the hours she wants without signing the contract. That means you have somewhere to live and a lot of time free to look for a new live-in job. Do NOT voluntarily walk away - don't underestimate losing your home.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 10:09:48

It may be that it all comes down to a unofficial deal if it goes on long enough - ie she gives a good reference and "gets rid" without any legal costs (to try to find someone who'll sign that contract!) while you get the time and space to find a new job. This feels like a game of chicken. I don't think you should blink first.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 10:20:23

Just written the resignation but don't think I'm brave enough to jump.

Looking at childcare website at the moment and applying for everything.

insancerre Sat 13-Oct-12 10:27:31

Good luck.Maybe hold fire on the resignation until you find something new. That way you can honestly tell her you are moving on, seeking new challenges for your own professional development.
Then you should get the reference you will need. It is always best to part on good terms.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 11:02:25

I wouldn't jump, you'll regret it. Why make it easy for her and hard on yourself. Why look for a job and a flat at the same time when you could just be looking for a job.

MrAnchovy Sat 13-Oct-12 11:10:10

As you have been employed less than 2 years it doesn't make any difference whether it is a new job or an amendment - you have no rights to redundancy pay or unfair dismissal claim anyway*

You need a proper job with a decent employer: the best you can get out of this situation is a good reference.

* I see from your other thread that you were previously employed by this employer: depending on the wording of your current contract this may actually give you more than 2 years service but the amounts you could claim for redundancy/unfair dismissal are so small that it would almost certainly not be worth a legal dispute - a good reference would be worth much more.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 11:17:44

"Either you or your employer might want to change your employment contract. However, neither you or your employer can change your employment contract without each other's agreement."

The two year rule doesn't apply to the oringinal poster as she began work for this person before April this year. So unfair dismissal would apply. Also see above.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 11:19:16

In other words, don't sign, don't resign, don't make yourself homeless. Drag it out, negotiate, stay on good terms, decide what you want. Most importantly - a roof over your head, and a reference. Remember being under her feet gives you the power of requiring a good reference to get rid of you.

Lougle Sat 13-Oct-12 11:19:22

Just to correct that, MrAnchovy - although the minimum period of employment is 2 years as of April 2012, if the contract commenced before April 2012, the minimum period remains unchanged at 1 year so if all other conditions are satisfied, the OP would still have a claim.

MrAnchovy Sat 13-Oct-12 11:24:08

Thanks Lougle, you are absolutely right regarding unfair dismissal. The qualifying period for redundancy pay is 2 years regardless of when employment commenced however.

MrAnchovy Sat 13-Oct-12 11:39:00

"Either you or your employer might want to change your employment contract. However, neither you or your employer can change your employment contract without each other's agreement." (ex. Business Link)

That's all very well Brycie, but if you don't agree to a change the employer can terminate the existing contract by giving notice. Even if this was judged to be unfair dismissal (and in this case there may be an argument of unfairness in relation to the National Minimum Wage and Working Time Regulations) the compensation would be minimal, and taking a previous employer to an Employment Tribunal never looks good on a CV sad

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 11:48:31

I took it from the direct gov website, is that the same thing?!

Anyway, the legalities are partly on the nanny's side, that's what's important. At the moment she's faced with a fait accompli, and she thinks all the power is on the employer's side. She needs to know it's not like that.

She needs to know that she doesn't have to sign it, and that if she's fired, she can bring an unfair dismissal claim. It doesn't matter what the result will be, in a way - it's the fact that it's unfair dismissal, legal costs, compensation outcome uncertain etc - does the employer want to go through with that? No, probably not. It will give her pause, give the nanny time to negotiate, find a new job, not lose her home, whatever.

Does the nanny want to go through that? probably not, but that's not the point. She could, and that gives her a bit of power which she's in dire need of right now. Not signing, and not resigning, puts the ball back in the employers' court and a good thing too. That means she'll have to decide - do I want to sack her, risk unfair dismissal, struggle to find new help etc or do I negotiate the terms of the contract?

All this time the nanny can be looking for a new job and still has a roof over her head. Unfair dismissal is a fair cop because the employer has offered her continued employment so any complaints about performance would be seen to be made up and false.

Nanny photos I think you need to start making notes, photocopy the contract and start thinking about what you want if the terms of the contract were open to renegotiation. Or a new job.

MrAnchovy Sat 13-Oct-12 12:18:02


Oops yes, DirectGov.

I see what you mean about presenting a balance of information, but I don't agree that the employee is a very strong position here, and I do think that the best that is going to come out of it is a good reference and jeapordising that by threatening/hinting at a Tribunal would be a mistake.

"Unfair dismissal is a fair cop because the employer has offered her continued employment so any complaints about performance would be seen to be made up and false."

But the reason the employer would give for dismissal wouldn't be performance, it would be that the employee is unwilling to meet the changed needs of the employer. That doesn't mean that the dismissal would definately not be unfair (indeed if the Working Time Regulations are being breached it may automatically be unfair), but it is certainly not a "fair cop" against the employer.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 12:40:32

Yes I agree and you definitely know more about Working Time reguatlions than me.

But I don't think the employee would even have to HINT at a tribunal. It's already in the employers' mind. All she has to do is smile sweetly, ask for more time, and the employer will already be thinking about the next step.

This is going to be a slightly dog eat dog situation with both dogs smiling and wagging and both working out how they can each get the best out of the situation.

Unless the nanny really doesn't want the hassle, which would be quite natural, and she's got the money to spare and can just walk. I wouldn't do it but I can see how that's appealing.

nannynick Sat 13-Oct-12 12:45:46

I agree MrA, the outcome the nanny needs here is a good reference and time to find another job.
Why couldn't the nanny say they won't agree to change to contract and let their employer give notice ti terminate the contract. Woukd that work? Better than nanny resigning.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 13:33:46

Hi I'm back - my thoughts are that I tell her on Monday that I don't agree to the terms she said that we agreed them in a meeting but this being on call for any hours whenever for no payment - we said that I would have the occassional overnight and that I would get TOIL...

So I tell her I don't agree to the terms
Then she will say "someone else will sign that contract" which she hinted to when I didn't sign the new one which had errors in
I then ask if thats what she wants and offer my 4 week resignation there and then - but saying that I will only work the 25 hours a week that I am employed to do so - ie no overnights, no extra hours and the 3 week course she wants to go on is a NO NO.


JustSpiro Sat 13-Oct-12 13:51:26

Is she expecting you to sign this over the weekend and give it back more or les immediately? Has she said as much?

I'm just wondering if it's worth ringing round a few employment lawyers to see if any of them do a free half hour and you could get some concrete advice before making a decision.

Re the INSET day - did you have notice of that? I must admit that in your situation I would expect to be providing childcare on those days unless I'd been told otherwise.

The rest of it sounds totally unreasonable and I think if necessary I would just go with the line that I needed a more structured/straightforward set up from both a financial and personal POV.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 13:59:18

Justspiro - I was told I would not be on call during school hours, I would not work school holidays etc and would only work 7.15-8.45 and 3.15-5.30. She told me I could get a job during school hours - therefore how am I supposed to cover inset days if I have another job that she agreed I should take on?

I imagine she wants it signed asap - she will know I am stalling.

fraktion Sat 13-Oct-12 14:06:35

I second the advice to seek further advice. A lot will depend on the wording of your contract given what you said on the other thread.

Is NCMA who you have your insurance through? Did you speak to the insurer's legal team? I've heard the standard helplines aren't that great for nannies as the organisation is set up primarily for CMs who obviously don't have the same nitty gritty employment law issues.

I would not sign that contract as it stands.

fraktion Sat 13-Oct-12 14:07:36

Also I suspect she is trying to make you resign so you can be replaced with an au pair. She may have been advised that your previous employment puts you in the running for redundancy payment so she doesn't want to actually make you redundant.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 14:08:39

On Monday just say that you need more time to think. That's all.

nannynick Sat 13-Oct-12 14:12:40

I don't feel you should resign. She should give you notice that the contract is ending.
I think that if you resign then you can't claim job seekers allowance for a while - anyone know thecurrent JSA entitlement rules.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 14:14:49

Photos, it doesn't matter if she knows you're stalling, what's she going to do about it?

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 14:18:13

But essentially regardless of whether I sign it or not - it will stand she will continue to work overtime and I will continue not to be paid for it.

JustSpiro Sat 13-Oct-12 14:23:37

So the implication was that your employer would take time off for INSET's, the, which is fair enough.

It sounds like a tricky situation to work round anyway.

Your employers normal days of work are M-F for 50 hours. Your normal days of work are M-F for 25 hours. You may be required to work such additional hours as are reasonably necessary for the proper performance of your duties and meeting the needs of the family. Extra payment will not be made for any additional hours worked

Your employer has the right to vary your working hours and days in accordance with the family needs

Assuming you did want to try and work it out (if only to give you a bit of breathing space to find something rather than having to rush it).

Where are they getting 25 hours pw from? The hours you mention above total 18.75 so that would need addressing (unless that included some weekend/evening work - but I'd ask them to be more specific)

Additional hours - you said you'd agreed to TOIL for those. I think they need to give you an idea (and you them) of what would be considered reasonable. 3 or 4 hours a week that you take of as TOIL is one thing, expecting you to be in charge pretty much 24/7 unpaid is unreasonable - quite apart from anything else how could you ever recoup that in TOIL? So perhaps a clause stating that 'up to x hours a week as TOIL and anything in excess of that paid at an hourly rate of £X.'

Right to vary your working hours - ok, but how much notice do they have to give you of this? Will this apply to occasional temporary changes or just big, permanent ones such as the current situation, in which case a different notice period might be required (i.e. 48 hours min for occasional, 4 weeks for l/t permanent changes).

It's a lot of work and aggro if you're already not happy and your boss is not the most reasonable person in the world. Worst case scenario would agency work be an option for you until you find something permanent?

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 14:24:22

Firstly, she can't legally pay you less as you are under contract. Secondly, if she's going to unilaterally start paying you less then your job at that place is over, and the question is, do you want to find a flatshare - given you might get a live-in job - or do you want to stay where you are and use your free hours during the day to find a new job.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 14:27:27

If you have a good reference I don't think you'll find it hard to get a new job. You need maybe two months - I don't think being thrown out and having to flat hunt at the same time will help.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 15:31:52

So keep quiet, make her write me a reference, look for a job whilst staying here.

She said I would only be working 18.75 hours but be paid for 25 - so I made the descision to work the 7.15-9.30 2.30-5.30 so that she couldn't turn round at any time and say I was paid 7 hours more than I worked - also means I have time to do nursery duties etc.

JustSpidero Sat 13-Oct-12 15:59:30

You said you're at Uni - would they be able to help with accommodation under the circumstances, either halls or lists of local rooms/flatshares? Do they have any nursery/crèche facilities that are recruiting?

I think it's worth trying to hang in there if you can, but if it's going to be causing regular issues because your employer is taking the mick or pressuring you re the new contract I can see why you'd want to get out sooner.

RandomMess Sat 13-Oct-12 16:04:27

Could you ask her to consider some sort of flexi time sheet, I would consider the contract, give her lots of options and compromises to look at and ask for a meeting to discuss it again in a weeks time wink

You can stall while trying to negotiate and come to an agreement, such as suggested by JustSpiro. Could you see if you were able to find a nursery shift in those hours? It might be easier to find a job later on, either in that nursery or otherwise if you are employed. That might solve the reference issues, as your boss has already suggested you find a job. She would obviously not mind you finding a job in those hours. Whether it be in a nursery, or as a live out nanny with another family.

juneau Sat 13-Oct-12 16:10:48

I would get an employment lawyer to look it over and give you advice. If it was me, I'd probably tell her that's what I was doing too and that's why I need more time. She sounds like a bully.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 16:33:43

Actually - good point, if she's already suggested you look for a job you should have NO problem getting a reference straight away. I would definitely let her cool her heels for a bit. Obviously the next employer will phone her but she'll know that if she badmouths you - you're still under her roof.

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 16:34:50

I think I must be a really horrible person but it looks to me like a reasonable person in serious danger of being railroaded by an unreasonable person if she continues to try to be reasonable!

Brycie Sat 13-Oct-12 16:35:25

The second "she" is the nanny - I'm sure you get what I mean photo.

Photoseverywhere Sat 13-Oct-12 16:44:14

Haha Brycie thought you were saying my boss was being rail roaded by me! grin

Just spoke to my mum! She said I should clarify what hours I am to work as I want to get a xmas job at boots etc, boss will then say well I want you available (which she said I wasn't to do) or say the hours I am free to work. If she says well I need you to be at my beck and call then I can say but you told me that I could get another job. Then say I am not happy to work for no pay, and leave it in my bosses court as to what then happens ie does she pay me or sack me. If she says someone else would sign just reiterate tto her that she said this ie "are you saying that you are ending our contract?" Then go from there.

Thanks for everyones help.

RandomMess Sat 13-Oct-12 16:49:13

Wise Mum you have there Photos smile

YokoOhNo Sat 13-Oct-12 16:56:09

I would stall her. Don't sign anything. She's obviously really, really pushing you to sign the new contract, but I'd simply take the copy contract, say thank you and tell her you'll just get it checked over by a lawyer to make sure it's all in order and hopefully there wont be too many amendments required and you'll be able to sign by the end of the week. Call her bluff. If she took legal advice, so she says, it's not unreasonable for you to do the same.

Whether you do go to a lawyer or not is up to you, but i agree with the other posters that it sounds highly unreasonable to me. I'm a lawyer (not employment, so no use to you) and I wouldn't sign that.

In the meantime, tell her that you'll need a reference for the school hours job she is proposing you get.

Karoleann Sat 13-Oct-12 21:23:42

What an appalling boss you have.
I think she's trying it on and hoping you'll Accept, she can't honestly think you'd work extra hours free!
As you've said you just need to have a chat with her (maybe tomorrow if you're living in) and explain that you're okay about this reduction in hours, but you need a way to offset the reduction in pay so you can either find another job. In which case you won't be around to to ad hoc and holiday cover. Or as a very minumin extra hours have to be paid.
Either way I wouldn't sign the contract and I certainly wouldn't take time in Leiu instead of pay. Then start looking or another job.

forevergreek Sun 14-Oct-12 16:38:27

i would write a note saying i you are available between x and y hours (as current contract says)

if any additional hours are needed they are to be paid at x amount per hour and subject to nanny availability

if you they need somebody 50hrs a week plus, then they need to be paying for 50hrs everyweek, otherwise what you do outside those hours is up to you

personally i would hand my notice in and find somewhere else

RandomMess Mon 15-Oct-12 22:03:12

How did it go, don't envy you being live in with the sort of atmosphere it must be creating sad

Brycie Tue 16-Oct-12 02:21:30

Yes I'm keen to find out what happened. I hope it all went

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