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Nanny role has changed - how do I let them go without contravening redundancy laws?

(27 Posts)
SplinteryBottom Thu 09-Jun-16 16:03:11

So, first of all we have our nanny PAYE etc dealt with through a professional company and I'm sure we'll get good advice from them. But I know that there are lots of very experienced and knowledgable people on here so I just want to see what other people's experience of this is.

We have DTs, who go to pre-school in town X. We live in town Y. Our current nanny lives in town X, and she does a combination of after pre-school pick ups and brining them home and full days looking after them at home.
In September they will start school in reception in town Z, which is further away from X than us, so the nanny is reluctant to continue. I could financially make it worth her while, but I feel we have maybe got to the stage where a break/change would be good.
My understanding is if I make her redundant then I cannot re-advertise for a new nanny, even if the bulk of the work (i.e. picking up from a new location) is different? Is that correct?
Alternatively I think she could resign, but if she doesn't have a position to go onto then I don't want to jeopardise her ability to claim any benefits (I don't think she would, but I don't want her to get stuck). Obviously it's not anyone's actual fault that the children have got older.
To furhter complicate matters, because going to reception is going to be a big change for the DTs, and they have a longish settling in period etc, I have provisionally asked the nanny to continue until the end of September. This is not in writing and I suspect might change, but I don't know if she has been technically doing the job - or something close to it - in the new location affects this?

RainbowsAndUnicornss Thu 09-Jun-16 16:08:39

I don't know anything about the law regarding this but I think you're over thinking it. Isn't it obvious to all involved you won't need a nanny when dc start school??

SplinteryBottom Thu 09-Jun-16 16:18:50

No, DH and I work much longer hours than reception school days, and there are school holidays to cover, so although I'm looking into other options we definitely still need a nanny.
(Alternatives for us would be an au pair, or a combination of childcare clubs/childminders etc. But my preference if we can get one is another nanny with some flexiblity in their schedule).

asg198 Thu 09-Jun-16 17:23:05

If you still need a nanny then you discuss with her that the role is changing slightly in that the twins are going to a school in town z and so pick ups will need to be from there from now on. It is then up to her if she wants to continue with you and do the extra journey or not. You do not need to pay her extra money but she will ob need more mileage as the school run will be longer. Also I guess her hours will be going down as school finishes later than pre school so have you had that chat, she may not be able to afford to work less hours so is looking to move on anyway, again you offer her the new hours and if she accepts great and if she doesn't then she resigns.

Fairuza Thu 09-Jun-16 17:23:59

It doesn't sound like a redundancy situation. The job is still there. If the nanny doesn't want to continue working for you she doesn't have to but you need a nanny, you currently employ a nanny, so you aren't making anyone redundant.

How long have you employed the nanny for?

Hels20 Thu 09-Jun-16 17:31:14

I don't think it is redundancy because of geographical change. The location has not changed - you still live in the same house. She will just have to spend more time travelling to do a pick up. I think if you are not paying her for her extra travel costs to get there (ie additional time spent) then I do think you have a redundancy situation.

Karoleann Thu 09-Jun-16 18:24:20

As long as you offer her the new job first its fine to re-advertise for a new nanny. As your children no longer need the same childcare set-up, her current role will cease to exist in September when the start school, so it is a redundancy situation and if you have employed for for more than 2 years she is entitled to a redundancy payment.

Numberoneisgone Thu 09-Jun-16 18:29:15

Are you sure she would not do it. Reception hours are longer than preschool hours so she would be doing extremely well even with the longer pick ups. If she has been a good nanny then I believe the consistency will work in your favour for a big transition like school.

ethelb Thu 09-Jun-16 18:39:07

You can make her role redundant and offer her suitable alternative employment in the new role. She can decline it and you can advertise the new role.

clarrrp Thu 09-Jun-16 18:53:51

Basically you will need to discuss with her your proposed changes to her contract - outlining all the changes required due to change in business (you) needs. Give her a chance to consider these changes. If she agrees than draw up a new contract. If she doesn't agree then you can terminate her employment and hire someone else.

The main thing is that you offer her the opportunity to consider and agree to the required changes.

And, and this is VERY important, you need to be able to prove that the changes you want to make are necessary and that there is a sound business reason for it - in this case the changes in location and times necessitate a change in the working hours, location and pattern, so you shouldn't have any issue there regarding potential claims for unfair dismissal etc.

Bear in mind also that you may be liable to pay redundancy money depending on how long she has been with you.

Your best bet, as always, is to check with you own solicitor and have them look over your contract and talk you through your options.

summerainbow Thu 09-Jun-16 19:21:10

Though she will doing less hours and longer travelling.
What is going to happen on training day . These come with short notice.
Or the school can shut with things like snow day or polling days .
Or what going to happen if a child is sick .
If you want your nanny to cover the above you need to pay her
Many people ask nanny to do cleaning to make up the hours so nanny can be around for above days.

SplinteryBottom Thu 09-Jun-16 19:50:27

Ok thanks everyone for your thoughts.

She knows now we have been allocated our school place where they will be going to school.

She knows that school will involve a reduction in hours during a standard term week, but that we would still require cover during holidays/inset days/illness etc. That is all familiar territory and over the two years she's been working with us the hours and requirements have naturally evolved. It would all be up for discussion with any new nanny as well obviously.

I don't think she wants to drive a longer commute for what will be shorter hours most of the time, and that's completely understandable. At the moment she is paid mileage for the bulk of her commute to work because that is the school run. In future her commute will be longer but her school run miles shorter, so her mileage would actually go down quite considerably - unless we offered as a bonus to pay mileage/costs for her additional commute - although that feels like a fairly slippery slope to go down, there are not many jobs where your commute is paid for (mine certainly isn't).

So the question is, if the main place of work (i.e our home) hasn't changed, but other factors of the job (the school run) have changed, and we mutually decide that it's time to find a new nanny, then how do we go about doing that?

I am intrigued by *ethel's comment about making the role redundant rather than the person - I presume we pay her redundancy pay in that situation? I'm not trying to get out of paying redundancy, but I don't want to pay redundancy for a job she doesn't want, and then have an issue further down the line re-advertising a very similar role, or one she has been doing on a temporary basis for the start of term etc.

As for keeping her on - it's on my mind. Recruiting her the first time around was quite tricky. She has some really great points, but there are also some things we would ideally like to change with a new nanny, so I don't want to be twisting her arm to stay in a position she doesn't want any more as that might create bad feeling. I wonder if these relationships do just naturally run their course some times as the children grow up. But I don't know how employment law can accommodate that.

nannynick Thu 09-Jun-16 21:41:53

The hours have changed. The duties have changed. As long as you offer the new job I can't see why the current job cannot be redundant.

What you can't do is have the new job the same as the old job.

nannynick Thu 09-Jun-16 21:47:43

Call your payroll provider tomorrow and ask about how much of a change there needs to be to be a redundancy situation if the nanny does not accept the change. Jobs changing is common when children go to school.
Redundancy pay depends on nannies age and length of service.

Jinxxx Thu 09-Jun-16 22:00:10

Redundancy is not about whether or not your current nanny wants to do the new job - it is about compensating her for taking away her existing job if she does not find the new terms acceptable. If your requirements change significantly, you cannot impose that change on an employee. You can offer them new terms, but if they are not acceptable to the employee (e.g shorter or longer hours, different working pattern) you are likely to need to make them redundant i.e pay them off. You cannot make an employee redundant and then offer someone new a job essentially the same as the one you made your last employee redundant from. After making her redundant, you can offer a new job on new terms, but you need to be careful both that the new job is significantly different, and that the changes you have made to the hours or other terms can be justified by your changing needs, or she could reasonably claim that you were not justified in making her redundant..

lougle Thu 09-Jun-16 22:00:44

I think you are getting a bit confused as to what constitutes the role.

The role isn't 'Nanny to DTs'. It's 'combination of after pre-school pick ups and brining them home and full days looking after them at home.'

In September, that role will change. Instead, it will be <insert school routine> and inset days/holidays, etc., plus the location of pick up changes.

So the role will change. You can't just change it. You have to consult your Nanny (you have), justify the business need for the change (your DTs have got older and will now attend school) and offer her the opportunity to continue under the new terms. If she doesn't want to do that, you can terminate the employment with the due amount of notice and advertise for a replacement Nanny on the new terms.

Blondeshavemorefun Fri 10-Jun-16 14:49:36

How much further away is new school?

Can you pay mileage from your home to school

If old job doesn't exist anymore then you are making her redundant

You offer new jobs hours etc and nanny either accepts it or says no and you make her redundant and advertise and look for new nanny

What you do have to think about is if they are ill who will pick them up? Yourself or hubby as nanny won't be on call /duty till 3pm etc

clarrrp Fri 10-Jun-16 19:23:13

So the question is, if the main place of work (i.e our home) hasn't changed, but other factors of the job (the school run) have changed, and we mutually decide that it's time to find a new nanny, then how do we go about doing that?

Read my post - I explained what you have to do.

IceMaiden73 Fri 10-Jun-16 20:39:57

Call ACAS

SplinteryBottom Fri 10-Jun-16 20:45:29

I have read your post Clarrp and I understand it, but I'm just sounding it out to get some other viewpoints and opinions, thank you.

Blondes - the illness thing is an issue regardless of what we do as there will be many days when neither DH nor I are working anywhere near school.. Sigh. I know we are not alone in this.
Fortunately I do have some people locally I can ask favours from, and who would happily help out if they could, although I hate asking favours which is one of the main reason we are considering a nanny rather than a patchwork of afterschool/holiday/breakfast clubs etc.

Karoleann Fri 10-Jun-16 21:08:58

I've just read your second post. So yes basically you need to offer her the new position and yes if she doesn't accept you have to pay redundancy.

If she's not up to the job you need to go through disciplinary procedures and sack her.

There have been lots of people giving you the same advice, although if you're still not convinced we're correct call ACAS as ice maiden suggested.

Maybenot321 Fri 10-Jun-16 21:22:09

Basically you will need to discuss with her your proposed changes to her contract - outlining all the changes required due to change in business (you) needs. Give her a chance to consider these changes. If she agrees than draw up a new contract. If she doesn't agree then you can terminate her employment and hire someone else

Am I right in thinking that if Nanny isn't able to accommodate the new working arrangements, then Nanny can resign and would have a very good case for constructive dismissal? If you don't come to a redundancy arrangement, that is.
As others have said, the ACAS page on redundancy is very helpful.

jkdnanny Sat 11-Jun-16 11:56:15

I think you have to offer her the new role and if she turns it down, then shes made redundant and then you can offer the new role to someone else. I think as long as you've offered the current nanny the new role first you are fine.
I wouldn't offer to pay for her commute. Just the school run bit of it. Maybe pro- rata it. How come you think you need a change? Would you be happy to keep her if she agreed to the new terms, or is there something else which makes you feel the change is good.

jkdnanny Sat 11-Jun-16 11:57:19

I think you have to offer her the new role and if she turns it down, then shes made redundant and then you can offer the new role to someone else. I think as long as you've offered the current nanny the new role first you are fine.
I wouldn't offer to pay for her commute. Just the school run bit of it. Maybe pro- rata it. How come you think you need a change? Would you be happy to keep her if she agreed to the new terms, or is there something else which makes you feel the change is good.

Blondeshavemorefun Sat 11-Jun-16 13:02:01

Re reading it - your nanny sounds picky

Not many schools are in the average nanny home town - course she has to travel

What are the distances roughly your home to current school - your home to new school?

Am assuming unless going private that the school much be quite local to you to be able to get in?

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