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Nanny share - nanny with own child

(24 Posts)
SusannaB Tue 09-Feb-16 21:57:51

Hi,

My sister is looking into a nanny share with another couple - they each have one baby, who will be around 10 months old when the mums go back to work. They've had conflicting messages about whether they can employ a nanny with their own child - some saying it's fine, others saying that the nanny's child counts as a 3rd family, and hence is illegal. Can anyone shed any light on this please? Thank you.

BlackEyedPeas Tue 09-Feb-16 23:56:11

nanny can take care of the children of no more than 2 families at the same time
however if the nanny with her child works with family 1 on monday and tuesday, and with family 2 on the rest of the days, then is fine

TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams Wed 10-Feb-16 12:35:50

As far as I know, the nanny can't have more than 2 children under 1 including her own child. Exceptions are made for multiples eg: triplets but a nannyshare where all three children [if all under 1] would not qualify.

www.gov.uk/register-childminder-childcare-provider/what-to-register-as
Reading this and a scattergun review on teh internet, it looks like it would only be possible to do this across 3 families simultaneously if she were to register as a childminder. Then your homes would have to meet Ofsted standards.

Blondeshavemorefun Wed 10-Feb-16 21:00:12

there cant be 3 children from 3 diff famillies on the same day

so if employ nwoc then the share cant happen legally unless fam 1 was mon tue wed and fam 2 thur fri

if your sister and other family are on the same days then cant have a nnwoc

nannynick Wed 10-Feb-16 21:50:50

Legislation: The Childcare (Exemptions from Registration) Order 2008
3-1a,ii
a child or children for particular parents (“the first parents”) and, in addition, for a child or children for different parents (“the second parents”), wholly or mainly in the home of the first parents or the second parents or in both homes;

nannynick Wed 10-Feb-16 21:55:36

No distinction is made between a child of an employer vs a child of an employee.

So I would say that a NWOC can not do a nannyshare, as that would involved at least 3 children from 3 different families.

Would anyone notice though? Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't.

ConvenientTruth Thu 11-Feb-16 09:47:03

I happen to have recently asked Ofsted the exact same question! I'll paste my question and their response. Short version: they are unhelpful!

"Dear Ofsted,

I have read the regulations in the Early years and childcare registration handbook regulations and I have a follow-up question.

If a nanny looks after children from two different families, PLUS her own child, can she remain a nanny or does she need to be registered as a childminder?

Best wishes"

"Dear [Convenient]

Thank you for your email.

In response to your query, you may wish to read our ‘registration not required’ guidance. This can be accessed by clicking on the following link:

Early years and childcare registration handbook (Annex A)

I hope this is helpful to you.

However if you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards

[Person who replied]
Ofsted - Applications, Regulatory and Contact team
Telephone: 0300 123 1231
Email: enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk
Website: www.gov.uk/ofsted
Ofsted on Twitter at: twitter.com/ofstednews"

ConvenientTruth Thu 11-Feb-16 09:47:58

The eagle eyed amongst you will have noticed that this is not a helpful response! So, of course I replied with this:

"Thank you for your reply.

I have read the regulations you refer to in your email, and I have a follow-up question as it is not clear from the regulations. My question is this: If a nanny looks after children from two different families, PLUS her own child, can she remain a nanny or does she need to be registered as a childminder?

Thank you"

So far have received no reply despite chasing... it has been two weeks now...

SusannaB Thu 11-Feb-16 10:47:16

Thanks all - ConvenientTruth, if Ofsted does get back to you with something useful will you update me? Thank you!

ConvenientTruth Thu 11-Feb-16 10:54:40

Yes for sure!

ConvenientTruth Thu 11-Feb-16 10:55:23

Digging around, I've also discovered this very helpful thread on the same issue

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childminders_nannies_au_pairs_etc/1152468-Nanny-becoming-a-nanny-share/AllOnOnePage

Seems that it's down to interpretation and Ofsted aren't perhaps even the right people to ask. Will paste a really helpful excerpt below

ConvenientTruth Thu 11-Feb-16 10:56:04

Post from MrAnchovy (five years ago...):

"Frakkle has expressed her personal opinion, and the opinion of Ofsted (who have a track record of placing their own interpretation on legislation and acting accordingly).

However, I strongly disagree with this interpretation and I do not believe that it would hold up in court - if Ofsted ever dared to take it court given the way they were slapped down the last time they interpreted legislation narrowly to suit their own desire to regulate. The legislation that provides the exemption for nannying, and for nanny shares makes no mention of the children of the nanny.

This is what the legislation says:

Registration is required for "the provision of childcare ... on domestic premises for reward" (Childcare Act 2006 96(2),(4),(6) and (8)).

But nannies provide childcare on domestic premises for reward! So the Childcare (Exemptions from Registration) Order 2008 makes the following exceptions:

where a person makes the provision [of childcare on domsetic premises for reward] for:

(i)a child or children for particular parents, wholly or mainly in the home of the parents, or

(ii)a child or children for particular parents ("the first parents") and, in addition, for a child or children for different parents ("the second parents"), wholly or mainly in the home of the first parents or the second parents or in both homes;

Nowhere in there does it say that either of the exemptions (i) or (ii) (which provide exemptions for ordinary nannies and nanny shares with two families respectively) does not apply if, in addition to providing childcare on domestic premises for reward the carer is looking after her own children.

Ofsted have made this up, I assume because the number of children for which a childminder can provide care for reward is limited by the number of her own children he or she cares for and so their registration system takes this into account. But Ofsted's systems and procedures are not the law, and if the law says you don't have to register as a childminder they are irrelevant.

As Nick says, you (and the nanny) can read the above and refer back to the legislation if you wish and come to your own conclusions."

BlackEyedPeas Thu 11-Feb-16 12:23:11

i think when the nanny is ofsted registered, she must comply with the legislation for 2 children.
however if she is not, but she is highly competent, then i do not see a problem. I have also looked after a friends baby whilst i had my baby, and his cousin (all three born september / october / november 2012), it was crazy amount of work during feeds but it is definitely workable for the right person.

ConvenientTruth Thu 11-Feb-16 20:17:32

It's not '2 children' Blackeyed, though, in ANY legislation

BlackEyedPeas Thu 11-Feb-16 22:49:52

well at nurseries the ratio is 1:3, but needs a back up during change times when leaving the room....
so if you have all 3 babies in one room, doing all the stuff in there, then i suppose will be ok?

ConvenientTruth Fri 12-Feb-16 15:22:18

ARGH. Further reply from Ofsted, the third reply now, STILL not answering the question (although telling me a ton of irrelevant information that I did not ask about, such as DBS):

"Dear [Convenient]

Thank you for your e-mail.

A nanny or a person who minds children in the children’s own home, are what Ofsted refers to as a Home Childcarer.

As a homechildcarer you can look after children from two families in one of the children’s home.

Registration would not be required to look after your own children. You would need to have a discussion with your employer if you are going to bring your own children into their home. You also need to ensure you can meet the needs of the children. (This has been confirmed with Monika on our regulatory team.)

A Home Childcarer is usually exempt from compulsory registration and therefore if they wish to register with us, they can join the voluntary childcare register.

You can apply to register on the childcare register using the Government Gateway service. This can be accessed on our Ofsted Online website. The form you need to complete and submit is a CR1 form.

Please note that a Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) check is required to have been completed before you can submit your application forms to Ofsted. You will also be required to sign up to the DBS Update Service within 19 days of the date on your DBS check.

You apply online for a DBS disclosure at ofsteddbsapplication.co.uk

I hope this information is helpful to you.

However should you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards"

ConvenientTruth Fri 12-Feb-16 15:22:39

Have replied...

"Hi there,

Sorry but this still doesn't answer the question. We are getting close with this sentence, "As a homechildcarer you can look after children from two families in one of the children’s home," but it's still not an answer.

The question is, is the nanny's own children considered one 'family' in the terms you've used?

i.e. Family A - one child
Family B - one child

and nanny wants to bring her own child as well.

Is this permitted?

Thank you"

SusannaB Fri 12-Feb-16 16:33:31

How frustrating! Hope you get a conclusive answer soon.....

BlackEyedPeas Fri 12-Feb-16 22:26:01

their answer
You would need to have a discussion with your employer if you are going to bring your own children into their home. You also need to ensure you can meet the needs of the children. (This has been confirmed with Monika on our regulatory team.)
sounds to me as talk to the employers if they are happy AND if you can do it

ConvenientTruth Mon 15-Feb-16 12:08:06

Yes but I wish they would SAY rather than vaguely imply something!

I mean, obviously you would need to discuss with your employer your plan to bring your own children into their home. Who in their right mind would NOT discuss that with their employer? It's a pointless thing for them to say.

Equally 'you need to ensure you can meet the needs of the children'. Gee, thanks for the advice Ofsted. Here I was thinking I'd just take on as many as I felt like.

ConvenientTruth Tue 16-Feb-16 16:46:55

Update... they answered! With a helpful reply!

"Thank you for your e-mail.

In response to your enquiry childcare is the care or supervision of another's child, therefore if a home childcarer is looking after her own children, she isn't actually providing childcare to them. As long as the home childcarer is offering the childcare to the family in whose home she is working. This is considered offering care for one family, therefore if all parents are in agreement, the carer has adequate public liability insurance cover and the care takes place in the home of either of the two families, the home childcarer can take on a child or children from a second family.

I hope you find this information helpful."

So... I interpret this as meaning that a NWOC can look after TWO additional families. Anyone care to disagree?

TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams Tue 16-Feb-16 17:13:36

I disagree unless by "additional" you mean "in addition to her own children"

A NWOC can do a nanny share between two families PLUS her own child, provided that the care takes place in the home of at least one of the nannyshare families

nannynick Tue 16-Feb-16 22:18:03

I would like it in legislation.
The legislation says "for particular parents" so is Ofsted saying the nanny is not a parent?
One for the MPs to get involved with so it can be in law.

Good news though as it should mean that Ofsted won't take any action against a NWOC who cares for their own children plus children from two families.

Next problem - any insurance cover available to employers to cover the nannies child in case they have an accident in the home?

ConvenientTruth Tue 16-Feb-16 23:11:53

TreadSoftly - yes, that's what I meant by additional. (Is there another option? It's late and I may be being thick.) I think we are agreeing actually.

Nannynick - I take my victories where I can! I am pretty happy as I had given up on getting any kind of real response. I think from reading past threads on the topic you (?maybe) were of the view that legislation also supported NWOCs being able to do nanny shares with two other families

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