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Parent has asked for 2 year old to have no sleep during 11 hour day with me

(89 Posts)
childminder90210 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:17:31

Title says it all really parent has asked for 2 year old child not to have a sleep during the day as npt sleeping well at night, but child is with me for 11 hours and I feel its a bit unrealistic but unsure how to deal with this as n
ever been asked this before. My response so far has been well all i can do is try. Have you ever had this before and how did you deal with it as I feel its a little unfair to expect a child to go over 11 hours without a sleep at that age when its quite busy some days here too. Any thoughts or experiences welcome thanks

Italiana Wed 10-Oct-12 19:49:35

Exactly !
I had a mother who insisted her child get 1 hour sleep each afternoon so the child was duly put in bed only to stare at the ceiling for the whole time as I checked him regularly...at least he got a rest
Another insisted I wake the child after 1 1/2 hours...the first did not need the sleep as he was nearly 4, the second being a baby did and got woken up in the middle...which is right and which is wrong?

narmada Wed 10-Oct-12 16:42:15

But italiana, not all children's phsyical needs are the same!

Italiana Wed 10-Oct-12 16:17:28

Not misguided but guided by children's physical needs especially those in care for 11 hours a day

After 86 messages it is obvious we have so many opinions and no agreement so hope this c/ms will find a compromise with the parent for everyone's benefit ?

Blondeshavemorefun Wed 10-Oct-12 13:55:54

So op what had you been doing?

If no am sleep does charge fall asleep in buggy on way to school?

steppemum Wed 10-Oct-12 10:00:34

with mine 2 of them moved to a bed at this age. before they moved, I would put them in a cot and they would cry for quite a while then fall asleep (before that they wouldn't cry, but would settle and snuggle.) So they were already protesting the nap. Once we moved to the bed, they simply would not stay in it.

My ds was tired and probably did still need his nap, but short of tying him to the bed there was no way. We did down time for about 1 year. After lunch, quiet dvd and rest on sofa. He sat still for that half and hour (unheard of at other times) and about once every 3 days he actually fell asleep.

dd2 dropped her nap earlier than that as she climbed out of her cot at 18 months. By then I had a car, and we often went for a drive after lunch, she fell asleep within about 2 minutes in the car. By 2 she wasn't that bothered so I stopped the car. They all fell asleep in the car at awkward times too.

Yes, they were at times tired and needed sleep, but wouldn't go down. If they slept at all after 1pm then we had trouble with bed time. I never tried to keep them awake

HSMM Wed 10-Oct-12 09:08:13

I childmind a 3 yr old, who does not really need a sleep any more, but his mother has asked me to let him nap for approx 30mins after lunch, so he doesn't fall asleep on the way home in the car. Falling asleep later in the day makes her night-time a battle ground. I think this family might find that instead of a short nap at 11am, their child will fall asleep on the school run later in the day.

This child does not seem to have trouble getting to sleep at night, but is waking during the night, so perhaps the suggestion of a sleep diary is a good one (ie ... does child wake when the next door neighbour leaves for shift work, when the heating comes on, or whatever).

As others have said, it's always a tricky stage when they are starting to grow out of the need for a sleep.

kilmuir Wed 10-Oct-12 07:23:24

But steppemum did you not let them sleep or was it something they no longer needed?
I think you should try making the naps shorter, if the child really needs a nap its unfair

madelineashton Wed 10-Oct-12 07:05:32

But the child in question does appear to need a sleep confused

bigpaws Wed 10-Oct-12 06:45:07

As a CM and a parent, I want to share my mixed experience on this topic.

Each child is different. Likewise, each day is different.

As a parent, my DD2 dropped her daytime sleep before she was 2. Purely because bedtimes were horrendous. The worse time was 2-3.30pm, she perked up once DD1 came home from school.

As a childminder, it can be very difficult keeping a tetchy 2yo awake. They perhaps don't respond to you the way your own child would.

However, having the experience I had with my DDs, I fully empathise with the parents in this situation. Late to bed; tired irritable parents; etc.... Therefore, I support the decision of no daytime sleep.

What I don't agree with, is one of my parents that let their child nap during the day at a weekend, yet I work my butt off keeping them awake in the week as requested!! Total routine breaker!

steppemum Tue 09-Oct-12 23:24:42

I have only read page one, and I am amazed at all the people saying it is cruel, and poor child etc

She is 2

All 3 of my dcs dropped their last nap at 2. Then they had NO daytime naps for (wait for the shock) 12 whole hours between waking up and going to sleep!!!

One of the 3 dcs would have a down time after lunch (tv usually) and he fell asleep about 2x per week. Other 2 dcs didn't fall asleep.

When I was a kid, my brothers and i also dropped our naps at around 2.

Some kids go on napping til 3 or 4, some don't.

narmada Tue 09-Oct-12 23:04:55

Italiana, you sound very certain but I think that you are slightly misguided.

I would agree that most children aged 2 do actually need an afternoon sleep. However, some clearly do not. We have the exact problem that familiessharegerms talks about - getting into a vicious cycle of nap -late bedtime - tired in am - nap - late bedtime, hideously screamy etc etc etc.

There is commonly, IME, a period where the nap is on its way out that is tricky to manage. Some day sleep messes up bedtime, but no day sleep makes the child a bit grumpy and tired in the day.

Surely, what nannies and childminders should be doing is working with the parents to meet the needs of the individual child, not trying to impose a one-size-fits-all policy on sleep on all their charges? It can be tempting to think that all children are like the children you've known to date (or like the books say they should be) but in reality there is a wide spectrum of normal (not suggesting that you're doing this OP, by the way!).

On the issue of waking a child, really, you shouldn't feel bad about this. If I get a rare chance for an afternoon nap, then I have to set an alarm to ensure I don't sleep longer than an hour or so otherwise I'm up until 2 a.m. and therein starts a horrible cycle of late to bed, overtired ... Some children are the same.

I think the truth of the matter is that in family life, everyone's needs should be met as far as possible. Obviously, knowingly depriving a child of needed sleep is cruel, as is prodding them awake when they are so tired they are falling asleep in their food. But there is nothing wrong with avoiding the things that always send you child to sleep (cars, pram rides) if you know a sleep's not in their best interests in the long term.

FamiliesShareGerms Tue 09-Oct-12 23:02:35

bbcessex, I think something similar was happening at DD's nursery until we stamped our feet and she went into the bigger children's room when the others were napping. Turning the lights down, playing soothing music and encouraging DD to lie on a bed was trying to get her to nap (because it's quite nice to have them all napping at the same time, no?), not "letting her sleep if she asks to"

I am also just incredibly jealous of parents of 2, 3, 4 year olds who still get an hour or so to themselves when their little ones are napping!

CelineMcBean Tue 09-Oct-12 21:55:12

Can I just say a massive *thank you*to all of you who have corroborated the napping can lead to ridiculous bedtime issue? My nanny's attitude and the attitude of some of my friends I talked to about the problem - with their 2 hour a day napping 3 and 4 year olds - was that a few minutes sleep didn't make any difference. Well it bloody well did and it was a nightmare.

I remember when my (otherwise lovely nanny) was on notice and when asked about sleep she would say "oh, he just closed his eyes for a few minutes" and I would seethe knowing that was another miserable evening ahead for all of us while she would be at home doing as she jolly well pleased having caused the issue.

bbcessex Tue 09-Oct-12 21:18:57

My eldest would nap all day and still sleep all night.

My youngest dropped her nap at 2 years old. Any sleep whatsoever (even 20 mins) would result in a 10.30pm bedtime..

She was at nursery when I asked them to drop her nap.. they refused initially, mainly because it didn't suit them (although they maintained the "She needs it" mantra).

I went in after lunch one day, watched on their CCTV, and saw them desperately trying to coax her into sleep with the roomful of other sleepy tots.. she wouldn't have slept if they had kept her occupied - which they did after that episode. She stayed there until aged 4, never had a nap again (went in to an older children's room during sleep time, which she loved) and there was no issue.

To answer Italiana - have I ever tried to keep a sleepy child awake - well of course I have - I'm a parent! Lots of parents try desperately to keep their sleepy child awake when it's not an appropriate time - after lunch, or at 5pm - in the car for instance - And I've done it, by "look at that cow", "lets make dinosaur noises", "who can be the loudest etc".. its not always easy but it's possible, and they soon perk up. Why on earth would you want them to sleep at the wrong time, and then be out of sync? confused

Iggly Tue 09-Oct-12 20:34:41

Toddlers don't wake at night because they're getting too much day sleep IMO. Theyre still teething (molars), going through developmental leaps etc. restricting day sleep when they're tired just makes them bone exhausted so they crash out. Not a healthy way to sleep.

When there are bedtime battles however, then yes look at day sleep.

Sleep is so so important. Lack of sleep, chronic lack of sleep results in behavioural issues which might be written off as "terrible twos" etc. I've even read some literature which says it might be the cause of some behaviours which are mistaken for autism etc.

I've been through bedtime battles, broken sleep etc but ds has got through them and always reverts back to sleeping through with a nap. He's 3 and since starting preschool needs a nap more than ever.

catkind Tue 09-Oct-12 20:11:05

Can the child not have a rest by reading a quiet story with them or something instead of putting them down for a nap? My 2 yr old was generally awake for more than 11 hours of a day with no trouble. He'd have quiet times and rest and then be ready to run riot again. Napping did not increase his total amount of sleep, and certainly did not increase his overall wellbeing. You need to work with the parents on this one.
What we did at a similar point was agree with nursery that they wouldn't put him down for a nap, but let him sleep as long as he wanted if he dropped off or asked to sleep. He'd sleep at nursery maybe once a fortnight and was much happier all round. Could you come to a compromise like this with the parents?

WinkyWinkola Tue 09-Oct-12 20:00:32

A short sleep certainly stopped my 2 year olds from going to sleep at night until after 11pm. I once timed my dd - she had 3 mins sleep and that was her wide awake until 11pm that night.

FamiliesShareGerms Tue 09-Oct-12 19:58:18

"a short sleep during the day does not prevent a child sleeping at night".

Yes, Italiana, it can. It did with both mine, and still does with DD (2.5) unless she is really really tired or poorly.

There's a difference between parents wanting "a good night's sleep" (madeline), and the whole family being kept awake with a grouchy toddler until 10pm because the afternoon nap means She Just Won't Go To Bed. For us, those evenings meant that I got nothing at all done because the only way to stop DD crying was to sit and cuddle her on my lap. So DH had to do absolutely everything and we could give little attention to DS (the normal routine is to put DD to bed then have 30-45 mins just with DS (6). I don't see how this is in anyone's best interest.

Even worse, we would get into a vicious circle, where a nap meant that DD would be up very late; she had to be prised out of bed to get to nursery the next day, so was well short of the 12 hours that she really needs every day; was consequently tired at nursery, so needed a nap; so wouldn't go to bed until very late... On one occasion when DD was still in a cot, we had to put her to bed at nearly 11pm and close the door because we were both falling over with sleep deprivation, and we just had to break the cycle. Again, this experience is in no-one's best interest.

CelineMcBean Tue 09-Oct-12 19:48:18

And he really didn't need the sleep. Or the buggy but would nap in the car or buggy (as would I if rocked in a warm place during the day blush).

Yes every child matters and an over-tired, grizzly child for 4.5hrs in the evening with his parents is not in his best interest.

Italiana Tue 09-Oct-12 19:46:12

Mine is not a sweeping statement at all but what I have learnt from professionals over the years...of course all children are different...have you ever tried keeping a sleepy child awake?
Do you not feel that an 11 hour day is very long for a young child to be kept awake and going without some rest?
Lets check some facts and come back

CelineMcBean Tue 09-Oct-12 19:45:08

Agree with the parents and others on this thread. My child stopped napping in the day around 2yo. Nanny would take him out in buggy and he would nap (never napped with us or the day he went to nursery) despite us repeatedly asking her not to. He would then be up until 10.30pm at earliest. It was an utter arse ache and made me miserable dealing with overtired child.

She would also not tell us if he had napped unless asked and he didn't need to be in the buggy. She just found it easier.

We decided to let the nanny go because we appeared to be suffering for her easier life. Problem solved.

<<btw I have a lot of time for nannies and would use another but I have no time for employees who fail to follow reasonable requests>>

BigWitchLegsInWailyTights Tue 09-Oct-12 19:20:20

Yes it can Italiana. You can't make sweeping generalizations about ALL children. My DDs both would not sleep until about 9.30pm or 10.pm if they had napped and this was for both, at around the age of just two.

When I made an effort to engage them in something interesting at their usual nap time, they perked up. At 7.30 they slept.

Italiana Tue 09-Oct-12 18:41:42

Children cannot be forced to stay awake....a short sleep during the day does not prevent a child sleeping at night...there must be another reason (always is) look it up and if not sure ask to get advice from health visitor on how to deal with it

madelineashton Tue 09-Oct-12 17:49:21

Yes Beth, I think that's worth remembering sometimes... it's every CHILD matters. Not every PARENT'S NEED FOR A GOOD NIGHT'S SLEEP matters!

Bethnick Tue 09-Oct-12 14:31:55

BY LAW a nanny or any other child carer can not deny a child rest SLEEP food or drink when it is NEEDED!!!!!!!!! if the child is tired a power nap of 15 mins should be fine do not compromise your care of that child I had to explain this to a LOT of my parents and just "dropping" a nap is not always good people wean a child off bottols on to solids and potty train them I don't understand how people think ALL children can just drop a massive part of their day.

every child is different EVERY CHILD MATTERS.

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