Circumcision

(177 Posts)
leannac Mon 11-Feb-13 13:20:45

Anyone know how you go about getting baby boy circumcised? Do the midwives offer to arrange it when he's born or is it sonething you go to gp for?

scaevola Mon 11-Feb-13 13:28:27

No, it would not be offered on NHS in UK unless there is medical need (and that is unlikely to emerge until well into boyhood).

If it is for religious reasons, contact your community leader for advice on how it is arranged. If you just want it done, then you'd probably be best off self-referring to a private clinic.

Snusmumriken Mon 11-Feb-13 13:37:59

Why would you want to circumcise a baby?

ImpatientOne Mon 11-Feb-13 13:44:30

I believe it can be NHS funded in some cases/PCTs without medical need. There is a big push here in the NW for people to go through hospital or GP since the very recent conviction of a private nurse following a baby's death sad

leannac Mon 11-Feb-13 14:19:24

It's not a religious thing, hence why I don't know how to go about it as all friends who have had it done did so with rabbi etc. We just want to do it as my husband is Australian & there its done almost automatically for hygiene reasons plus there's no solid facts basis to back this up but we used to live in Africa & for years all drs passing through would try to educate locals that circumcision helped to reduce the risk of certain infections etc so I guess between that & the fact that its automatic in other first world countries makes me want to do it. But I do want to do it early as I've heard the sooner you do it the better

squishyotter Mon 11-Feb-13 14:26:23

You're talking about mutilating your baby boy's genitals! What's wrong with you?

Circumcision is not neccessary for good hygeine, look at it this way: would you consider having his fingers removed to prevent viruses/bacteria getting stuck underneath fingernails? How about removing his ears to stop a build up of earwax? Of course not! You encourage good, regular washing techniques as a parent, you don't have bits chopped off because they get dirty.

peeriebear Mon 11-Feb-13 14:27:13

Your son is perfect as he is.

KobayashiMaru Mon 11-Feb-13 14:28:13

no, you can't just lop a bit off your baby with no good reason in the UK, thankfully, its a civilised country. hmm

noblegiraffe Mon 11-Feb-13 14:30:13

You want to cut a bit of your son's penis off because your husband is Australian?

shock

pashapasta Mon 11-Feb-13 14:31:09

Why do you want to mutilate your child, your baby? If it was better for males to be circumcised, surely the human species would have evolved that way.

pashapasta Mon 11-Feb-13 14:31:09

Why do you want to mutilate your child, your baby? If it was better for males to be circumcised, surely the human species would have evolved that way.

scaevola Mon 11-Feb-13 14:31:55

Non-therapeutic infant circumcision is no longer provided in public hospitals in New South Wales, Tasmania, Western Australia, Victoria, and South Australia, and the circumcision rate %age is in the low teens. You might want to do some more research.

can he not just use good hygiene practices and practice safe sex when older in order to keep himself clean and healthy? No need to go removing parts of his body instead.

EuroShagmore Mon 11-Feb-13 14:38:14

This thread will not go well.

FWIW I agree with all the comments above. It's a bodily mutilation to which your baby is incapable of consenting. Unless there are health reasons for doing so, please don't.

OutragedFromLeeds Mon 11-Feb-13 14:38:41

'You want to cut a bit of your son's penis off because your husband is Australian?'

grin brilliant

Seriously, OP do some research before you lop off a bit of your baby's penis.

Badvoc Mon 11-Feb-13 14:43:20

Why would you do this?

amirah85 Mon 11-Feb-13 14:43:30

is usually not sone on the NHS,we did our son at a GP practice,the GP had training in circumcision,but u need to pay.where r u?

PandaWatch Mon 11-Feb-13 14:45:44

OP if you do want to get your baby circumcised I would recommend trying to get in touch with someone in your local Jewish community for advice (probably best off approaching someone who works in more of a community rather than religious sphere). From what I understand, it's pretty common for rabbis in the UK who perform circumcisions to now also be medically qualified. My SiL is Jewish and had her baby circumcised by a rabbi who is also a medical professional and carries out circumcisions for medical as well as religious reasons. People in his position will be very experienced and also have the medical knowledge to limit chances of infection etc. Please be really, really careful who you get to do it, for obvious reasons.

And expect to get massively flamed on here for asking. It's an incredibly emotive topic.

Why, just why mutilate a natural part of your newborn son?

chesticles Mon 11-Feb-13 14:51:54

You'll not get it done on the NHS. You'll have to go private and even then you might struggle to find a doctor willing to do it. I looked into it for my son, but decided not to in the end. You can PM me if you want. Cirumcision threads are always contentious

Fairylea Mon 11-Feb-13 14:51:59

No boy should have a part of his penis cut off unless it is absolutely medically necessary.

You do not have a medical reason. Your baby should not be circumcised.

I have a ds who is now 7 months and I ended up in tears when they did the heel prick test on him. I can't understand any mother allowing a routine circumcision. It's totally barbaric.

toffeelolly Mon 11-Feb-13 14:54:11

Never would do this to my little boy, if he was born with foreskin you should leave well alone , unless for med reason's that he had to have it done. Why do this when he does not have to have it done!

MrsHoarder Mon 11-Feb-13 15:16:26

I suspect you get the gist by now, here's the NHS page explaining circumcision. Apparently some PCTs do fund it (probably in Manchester).

If you are going to get it done please go to your GP and ask help finding a proper clinic which does it, don't risk ending up like this family.

ScumbagCollegeDropout Mon 11-Feb-13 15:21:28

What? It's not routinally done in Australia you muppet biscuit

amirah85 Mon 11-Feb-13 15:25:50

i agree thats very important to have it done in a proper place,not at home or at someone's place on top of a shop or something

ScumbagCollegeDropout Mon 11-Feb-13 15:40:37

Or just don't do it?

The child doesn't have to be a carbon copy of their dad y'know.

themagus Mon 11-Feb-13 15:41:22

Yes, you wouldn't want to do it on top of a shop shock
FFS why do it at all. Are my intact baby boys unclean because they didn't have this done "for hygiene reasons"? what's wrong with a bath?
Quite why anybody would put their baby through this for non-medical reasons is beyond me unless you had compelling religious reasons - I am absolutely staggered you would do this because that's what they do in Australia (even though it is no longer routinely done there or in any other first world country for "hygiene reasons").

prism Mon 11-Feb-13 16:15:50

I would not do it on a shop
I would not do it with a mop
I would not do it with a spinning top
I would not do it, definitely not

I would not do it in a home
I would not do it with a comb
I would not do it under a dome
I would not do it, definitely not

I would not do it to my son
I would not do it on the run
I would not do it to anyone
I would not do it, definitely not

And I would not do it to my daughter either
Because then it would be genital mutilation.

PandaWatch Mon 11-Feb-13 16:28:51

^ one of Dr Seuss' lesser known texts... grin

MrsHBaby3 Mon 11-Feb-13 17:32:00

As abhorently wrong as it is, I am sorry to inform you that it is available on the NHS ladies, esp in communities where it is seen as OK. I work in a Muslim community and women take their poor innocent children to the GP who refers to the local hosp for it to be done. It has been decided that it's safer to have it done properly ,than at home with an unsterile butchers knife in someones kitchen, and then to work on cultural attitudes. Thankfully female mutilation is recognised as a crime, just need to work on the males..

Snusmumriken Mon 11-Feb-13 17:50:16

All of the reasons you have stated are absolute nonsense. You are about to become a mother and it is your responsibility to protect your child and make sure that any medical intervention preformed on him is absolutely necessary.

scaevola Mon 11-Feb-13 18:44:25

NHS page in which it states that the majority of PCTs do not fund non therapeutic circumcision.

wonkylegs Mon 11-Feb-13 18:55:27

It has been mooted as possibly medically necessary for my DS and I would do anything for him not to have it so I cannot understand wanting to do it voluntarily.
Some first world countries it is common (most it isn't) but that does not make it right. The USA does lots of crazy things that I think are ridiculous and this is one of them which they still do at just over 50% of infant boys.
Stats for countries here - en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision

Strix Mon 11-Feb-13 19:10:07

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

cyclecamper Mon 11-Feb-13 20:57:41

I've looked after a child who had a circumcision that went wrong. Poor thing. He's never going to go in public showers or urinals in his entire life.

Teapot13 Mon 11-Feb-13 21:31:00

I thought it was just the US that did this, and the rate has dropped considerably in the last generation, so it's no longer "automatic." Australia was news to me (if it's correct).

Just to be clear, it may be tolerated in the US, but it is not recommended by any professional or medical organization.

Xenia Mon 11-Feb-13 21:40:52

Thankfully it is rarely done in the UK. What makes you think you have the right to decide something like that for him?

amirah85 Tue 12-Feb-13 10:21:23

MrsHBaby3 where is this available with the NHS?we had to pay for it.

Strix Tue 12-Feb-13 12:53:24

What talk guideline did I break? I think I'm offended by the deletion.... and no explanation!

Strix Tue 12-Feb-13 12:57:31

OP, if you would like to PM me, I have something to say which I think you might find helpfule. But, I am apparently not allowed to type it here.

No idea why. I am rather puzzled by the deletion.

NaturalBaby Tue 12-Feb-13 13:01:28

Please don't. It's totally unnecessary.

SamG76 Tue 12-Feb-13 14:39:52

If you're in London or Manchester, I'd recommend a mohel (ie someone who does circs for Jews) who is also a doctor. Many of them will do the op on non-Jewish children, and they're obviously very experienced.

If you PM me I can provide details of the one we used.

Missingthemincepies Tue 12-Feb-13 14:45:05

There are some pcts that will allow non-therapeutic circumcision. This is done for religious reasons to prevent these poor babies having bits chopped off without any form of anaesthetic. The idea that babies don't feel pain is rubbish.

These babies are given a general anaesthetic which is not without risk, and the circumcision performed. Most of the staff feel uncomfortable with it but acknowledge its better than an unqualified idiot with a knife and no hint of pain control.

I can just about understand it for religious reasons, people do very odd things in the name of religion. But for hygiene? That's just utter nonsense. Please speak to a doctor or do some PROPER research. You are planning to injure your baby irrevocably on a whim. I really hope this is just ignorance that reading this thread will cure.

Your poor little boy.

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 14:45:16

How anyone can possibly condone this I can have no idea. It is utterly disgusting, and the parents who do it should be convicted of causing actual bodily harm to their babies.

BabyRoger Tue 12-Feb-13 15:29:38

Just awful. sad

babynelly2010 Tue 12-Feb-13 15:31:37

She did not ask an opinion about what someone thinks about circumcision but asked how to go about getting a baby boy circumcised. I think the posts should be just about that not about how it is wrong to "chop off" your baby boy's bits and so on. Circumcision is legal in UK isn't it?...
You might find this link useful http://www.theportlandhospital.com/uploads/children/circumcision-faqs-mrs-pati.pdf
There are also clinics around england that can perform the procedure and it is cheaper however I would firstly look into the private hospitals with a specialist, your GP can advice you on this too.

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 15:33:38

If somebody wants to do something wicked you don't just say "try ringing this person". You tell them the thing they want to do is wicked, in the hope that they will think again.

JassyRadlett Tue 12-Feb-13 15:45:37

It's absolutely not 'almost automatic' in Australia and never really has been. Neither of my brothers (early 30s/late 20s are circumcised) and we come from one of the states with the highest current rates of infant circumcision (depressingly enough). And it's not for 'hygiene' reasons.

It's voluntary surgery performed on a newborn child. Just so your son will look like his dad?

amirah85 Tue 12-Feb-13 15:52:50

Also most people won't do it without pain relief,and usually is just a local anhestetic

CarlingBlackMabel Tue 12-Feb-13 16:20:46

OP, I don't know how long ago your DH left Aus, but you might find that his views and experience of circumcision there are a generation out of date. I don't think it is the default choice there now by any means, and as you will have gathered, unless you are muslim or jewish, or your child has a medical imperative, it is no longer common here in the UK.

Personally I would want to be very sure of my reasons in anticpation of my son, finding that unlike his mates he has no foreskin, asking me why he was given a medically unecessary procedure with no apparant benefit, and why he had the decision made for him.

Rhianna1980 Wed 13-Feb-13 00:20:13

Get in touch with one of the NHS hospitals with private wards or Portland . They will definitely point you in the right direction . Best wishes .

extracrunchy Wed 13-Feb-13 00:45:51

Please don't do it!! It's socially accepted genital mutilation and it's WRONG.

Billy11 Wed 13-Feb-13 01:05:45

I had mine circumcised. All my friends went to the same doc. Its an nhs clinic. He provides the service privately. Goodcare practice in northolt middlesex.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 06:09:22

Sickening.

AYetiAteMe Wed 13-Feb-13 06:29:18

Oh I love these threads, such fun for those of us whose sons have had to be circumcised for medical reasons to read that they are now considered to be mutilated. Super!

WhoWhatWhereWhen Wed 13-Feb-13 07:14:11

AYetiAteMe Are you being deliberately obtuse? circumcision for medical reasons is, imo, the only acceptable reason.

Makes me feel sick this is done for religious reasons, what a load of crap.

Trazzletoes Wed 13-Feb-13 07:20:36

yeti you clearly haven't read the thread then!

99% of people are saying circumcision is wrong EXCEPT WHEN MEDICALLY NECESSARY!

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 07:21:25

Can't believe people are actually offering op help to do this. Shame on you

WhoWhatWhereWhen Wed 13-Feb-13 07:27:19

i write reasons too often

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 08:02:25

How is it that the routine male circumcision is mutilation when one for medical reasons is not... It is same procedure that can be done by the same person except one is preventive and another one is emergency... I don't have a penis but surely it would be more distressful to have an infected penis than a circumcised one... especially since it could of been prevented...

extracrunchy Wed 13-Feb-13 08:17:42

Because there is a huge difference between doing it for medical reasons and doing it for outdated aesthetic reasons (or religious). It's like the difference between a mastectomy because someone has cancer and doing it "just because"!! That would be mutilation.
A medical reason is for example when the foreskin is too tight and causing pain or difficulty urinating. These cases are a tiny majority and certainly benefit from the procedure.
You think that doing it as a "preventative" measure is LESS likely to cause infection than leaving it alone??! With appropriate hygiene, normal uncircumcised penises do not become infected! Why not teach this instead of mutilating your sons.

lets just lop off anything that may get infected then - ears, fingers, etc. I know very few males that have had infections in their penis and they are all uncircumcised - they have obviously been taught how to keep themselves clean to prevent infection.

StupidFlanders Wed 13-Feb-13 08:24:15

It's not routine in Australia.

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 08:43:39

I don't believe a sensible adult cannot honestly see the difference between cutting off part of a babys body "just because" and doing it because its a medical necessity.

Anyway, if its so accepted as fine op will have absolutely no problem in asking the mw or hv instead of an anonymous forum, and if its fine there is no reason for little secret pms and people attempting to justify it is there.

And op casually saying the sooner you cut off part of a tiny helpless baby who looks to you for protection against harm do it the better is possibly the saddest thing I have heard on this subject.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 08:49:29

I'm sorry if this thread is distressing to people who have had their sons circumcised- but they shouldn't have done it. There is no excuse now.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 09:08:39

You need ears fingers etc to have normal way of life, what do you need foreskin for?

I respect that in UK people choose not circumcise for most time because that is what socially acceptable now. In America it is socially acceptable to have circumcised penis that is also for medical preventive reasons. If you know that your child will live in a environment where having foreskin is ridiculed and un-accepted why would you knowingly expose them to that, that can be a lot more damaging than a simple procedure.

On final note, the actual reason routine circumcision is not offered on NHS any more is for financial reason and not for any moral reason. That is why if you ask your GP about circumcision they will provide you with information. For the same reason NHS doesn't offer routine early and late pregnancy scans, they can't afford it or choose to spend money elsewhere. Surely many women could benefit from these 2 additional scans, especially the early pregnancy one instead of waiting until 12 weeks hoping that they are still pregnant. But NHS gets away with it because they know that some people are desperate enough they will pay extra money for these service and they do not have to assume a financial burden. Same with male circumcision, they knew if you wanted it bad enough you will pay your own money and get it privately. After the procedure stopped being offered on NHS people stopped circumcision to their sons not because they thought it was wrong but because they were too stingy, thus the decline... and now a different social norm...

SmileAndPeopleSmileWithYou Wed 13-Feb-13 09:13:18

I completely agree! I would find the whole thing very distressing and obviously my baby boy would too! I got upset when he had the heel prick test and the jabs at 8 weeks but I understand the benefits of these.

How a mother could choose something distressing without a reason is totally beyond my understanding. I like to think that I am the kind of person who can see other points of view, but with this I just can't.

Any parent who has had no choice in this decision, I really do feel for you. It must have been awful but hopefully it was the best thing to do for your son.

namchan Wed 13-Feb-13 09:14:01

I don't how why i read this thread, but how completely disgusting of you to mutilate your baby boy without even the pretence of a good reason. Not that there is a good reason I can think of anyway.Would you be mutilating any daughters you have too? That's practiced in parts of the world too you know, so must be ok.

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 09:18:52

You do not need fingers, ears etc to have a 'normal way of life' at all, what a ridiculous comment.

But hey, let's just cut them off anyway.

SmileAndPeopleSmileWithYou Wed 13-Feb-13 09:19:05

I don't see how living in the USA would expose them to ridicule. How would anybody know?

GP's give advice on how to go about this because there are many religious groups that do and, like you said, other countries where it is the social norm. A GP wouldn't be allowed to question this, only give you the pro's and con's for you to make your own decision.
Others have already posted that the NHS feel it is better to offer this in a dafe way when certain people would find a way to do it anyway.

The majority on this thread have not chosen to opt out because they are "too stingy". They don't think it is morally right.

SanityClause Wed 13-Feb-13 09:22:03

It is not routinely done in Australia!

I remember being with a group of friends in the late '80s and the boys decided to classify themselves as "helmet" or "rocket". (I know, but we were all about 17 or 18 blush )

There were more uncircumsised boys than circumsised in that group, certainly!

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 09:22:16

Female circumcision is different and illegal in UK and most developed countries so it is not relevant here. If you went to your GP and asked about female circumcision they would call child support services on you they would answer you if ask about male circumcision. Very different...

SanityClause Wed 13-Feb-13 09:27:23

babynelly, circumcision is not routinely done on the NHS, because there is no medical reason to do so.

Why do you think it might be routinely done in America, where everyone has to pay (either directly or via insurance) for the procedure? Perhaps because the medical profession has a vested interest in performing as many circumcisions as possible?

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 09:29:42

"Mutilation or maiming is an act of physical injury that degrades the appearance or function of any living body, sometimes causing death."
Male circumcision does not fall into this description, female circumcision does. Once again two different things...

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 09:31:36

You're right about that babynelly, seems having a penis means its fair game on having a bit of it chopped off when there's no need.

Anyway must dash, my Ds doesn't really need his legs and I'm scared he might break one when he's older so I'm having them whipped off. Shouldn't be too painful, I hear the cream they use to numb the area is fab and they only cry because they are a widdle bit cold on the table

Bunbaker Wed 13-Feb-13 09:33:47

"In America it is socially acceptable to have circumcised penis that is also for medical preventive reasons."

Why? Don't males routinely shower or bath in the US? Is there a shortage of soap there or a drought?

Sorry, but that statement is utter nonsense peddled by doctors who are looking for ways to make money out of the gullible.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 09:37:30

The reason it is being offered in america because in america people practice preventive care and not wait until there is an emergency. They don't force anyone into it, they just give options and respect choices. If you compare the numbers of people actually not surviving cancer in UK and America you will see that American numbers are much lower, that is due to good preventive care and of course some other factors.

How many times I went to NHS doctors with my sick daughter just to be being told in this country we don't bring our children for this kind of thing... WTF!!!??? What I need to wait for her to be unresponsive and than they will take me seriously.

Additionally, please don't forget, NHS is not free. We are, the tax payers, have to pay for it. The only difference here is how you pay for it, in America through insurance and out pocket while in the UK they take it out your pay check...

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 09:39:26

if your son has no legs it will effect his ability of normal life, your son will will function normal with out his foreskin. I respect your choices, I am just saying that other people's choices should be respected too.

Bunbaker Wed 13-Feb-13 09:42:21

"The reason it is being offered in america because in america people practice preventive care"

To prevent what exactly? There is no medical evidence that supports circumcision on healthy boys for health reasons or "preventative" reasons. You have been duped by greedy doctors.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 09:45:54

"You have been duped by greedy doctors." You are wrong about this, I was given choices. I can do my own research and make decisions. May be you've been duped by the controlling government that does not want to spend money on you having choices... just a thought smile

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 09:46:19

Nope you're wrong and dare I say sounding disablist there which I'm sure you don't mean too. Plenty of people have 'normal' (ugh) lives without legs. So you'll respect it if I cut his legs off won't you. My son my choice.Infact fuck it, let's get rid of one of his kidneys aswell, kidney infections are pretty horrible afterall.

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 09:47:44

Actual lol at being duped by the government. Yea, that's why we don't want to harm our babies <eye roll>

FairyJen Wed 13-Feb-13 09:49:47

It may be legal now but can I point out that it used to be legal to burn witches at the stake? It used to be illegal to be homosexual...

Society is often behind the times ad sometimes common sense needs to prevail. Should I come round your and perform a mastectomy...just in case??

The reason listed op reek of a lack on education on this subject and I strongly suggest you reevaluate the matter you can't undo it once it's done!

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 09:50:58

Will your son have anormal way of life which out his limbs? No, someone will always have to help him.... And without kidneys he will die... He needs at least one... To cut of limbs and kidneys requires major surgery. Make circumcision is a simple procedure...

Sausageeggbacon Wed 13-Feb-13 09:51:15

My ex had to have a circumcision for medical reasons as an adult. Even under a local it was uncomfortable to say the least. I can't imagine a child would not notice the incredible pain. Also sex was less pleasurable without the foreskin for him. Most people in the modern world know how to wash. The preventative issues are about STIs which if your boy grows up educated he would understand about using condoms. As to Americans doing it then I guess we all better go out and buy guns as they do that as well.

Apart from medical need you are inflicting horrible pain on your child. If when they grow up they decide that it is a good idea to have one then at least they have a choice... not something that can be reattached.

Bunbaker Wed 13-Feb-13 09:56:38

We will have to agree to disagree nelly.

My experience is that in the US doctors are far more likely to opt for invasive treatment because they can benefit financially from it.

When DD was little she had a growth on one of her vocal cords and needed a tracheostomy. We were told that the growth would disappear of its own accord and it was far safer to wait than opt for risky surgery. I joined a forum for carers and found that in the US they generally opt for invasive treatment/surgery simply because the doctors make more money. The wait and see option worked and DD's airway opened up without the need for expensive and risky surgery. My experience has made me very cynical of any healthcare that has to be paid for.

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 09:58:33

Of course hell have a normal life, it sounds like you are suggesting people with disabilities don't have normal lives, which I'm sure you're not.

And I did say is only remove the one kidney. I trust you will respect this decision.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:00:27

look i am not saying it is wrong to leave your baby uncircumcised I am saying that people should have choices. If you were arguing about this in America people would judge you as well. This is the cultural diference between us... I don't have a son, yet at least, but I would not want him to go back to states and be unaccepted. I come from a country where men are uncircumcised but I lived in US for a while and when I saw a uncircumcised penis for the first time since leaving my home country I was very confused in regards to what was going on downs there and if it was normal... Life in America is different with a foreskin, and different not always in a good way.
To be honest I really would like to have a boy but hope to have a girl next as the resistance to this whole issue is just to great here...

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 10:02:21

Unaccepted because you're not circumcised, how tragic. Glad I'm not part of that shitty society smile

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:04:02

I am not saying that disable people can't have normal lives.
Cutting of foreskin will not make you disable if done by qualified person for medical or non-medical reasons.

Flisspaps Wed 13-Feb-13 10:06:11

How is life in the US different with a foreskin?

Are there special gyms or shops for the intact? Are only the circumcised allowed to open bank accounts? Do intact males have to wear a special wooly bobble hat so that everyone knows they've got their foreskin? Are they banned from applying for particular jobs?

noblegiraffe Wed 13-Feb-13 10:06:35

Fashion isn't a good reason to mutilate your son's penis, IMO.

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 10:08:32

Baby - thats exactly what you said, I dont even need to C&P it as its up there ^ in black and white.

Im actually giggling at life in the US being different with a foreskin. Do men have to show their tackle before going in to bars? Will people only speak to men as long as they have inspected their bits first?

Do their penises have little ID cards??

Trazzletoes Wed 13-Feb-13 10:09:58

Oh my poor DNephew - born in the UK, uncircumcised and now growing up in the US. He doesn't stand a chance, does he?

babynelly your prospective son is highly unlikely to be ridiculed here on the basis of whether or not he has a foreskin.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:10:22

atacareercrossroads
this is an argument abviously I will not win here, it is fine... But would you name your son a "craphead" or "idiot" just so he will suffer a ridicule to the rest of his life.... It will not give him harm initially, but the suffering to the rest of his life will be far more greater... Surely there will be nice people that will hold themselves from teasing, but people (especially children) are mean, anywhere in the world here there and everywhere. If you can see a problem ahead why not prevent it... There are many reasons to this.

Trazzletoes Wed 13-Feb-13 10:17:20

But babynelly uncircumcised is the norm here! So by leaving your child's penis intact, he's not going to be ridiculed for it, is he?!

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 10:26:34

Sorry baby, your last post is so ridiculous I cba to respond.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:30:35

the bottom line is that I know what is the best for MY child, just like you know what is the best for yours. I am not saying one way is better than the other. I am saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Male circumcision is legal in this country and if it was morally wrong it would be illegal. If I have a son I'll make my own choices. I can care less what the rest thinks about it.
I also respect the system in this country while I am a guest here. In fact after thinking more about I realize that the choice is provided if not through NHS but privately. I just don't understand why people have to indure such attacks when all they want is an answer.
These circumcision threads are always never ending. It is a big ethical debate. I thank you all for presenting your arguments, it was very interesting.

Good bye for now smile

Snusmumriken Wed 13-Feb-13 10:32:12

Nelly, a penis without foreskin does not function normally. Please do some research into the purpose and function of foreskin before you advocate for its removal.

ChunkyPickle Wed 13-Feb-13 10:32:49

Err - Children do die, do get horrible infections, do end up penis-less even from doctor-performed circumcisions, and people who are circumcised do still get infections.

Why on earth would you cause pain, and risk your child's genitals and life (very rare, but happens), because at some point in the future he might get an infection? Seems like a ridiculously bad trade-off to me.

Children are going to find something to ridicule a child about - it's what children do. It's more important to instill some confidence in your child so this bounces off rather than lop bits off to give the kids one less thing to take the mick out of.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:40:35

Snusmumriken my husband has a penis without foreskin and I can guarantee you it is functioning normally smile

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:41:47

Snusmumriken my husband has a penis without foreskin and I can guarantee you it is functioning normally smile

Snusmumriken Wed 13-Feb-13 10:45:18

Great, what fun for you. All the same, your husband's penis does not function in the way that it would if it had foreskin. Please, don't take my word for it. A very simple google search will enlighten you. I am disgusted that you would even consider advocating genital mutilation without informing yourself of the importance of foreskin.

prism Wed 13-Feb-13 10:47:15

The thought I always come back to is that if this practice had never been done before, and was invented today, there's no way it would be allowed in modern society. It would be viewed as a perverse thing to do to babies who can't argue or fight back. There have been plenty of barmy practices in the history of the human race which have been outlawed or just dropped, and I sincerely hope this will be one of them, but that fact that it is not only allowed but to an extent facilitated by the state in this country, where it is illegal to shorten the tail of a dog, is absolutely ridiculous.

Flisspaps Wed 13-Feb-13 10:48:46

babynelly things that are morally wrong are not always illegal.

Tax avoidance is morally wrong but not illegal (think Amazon, Vodafone).

Cheating on your partner is morally wrong but not illegal.

Just because circumcision for non-medical reasons is legal, it doesn't make it morally right

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 10:49:09

Wasnt slavery once legal and morally acceptable in the UK?

There should be a version of godwins law for this sort of crap.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:49:27

had a long term boyfriend with foreskin before, his also functioned normally...
In my case I thought that the penis without the foreskin proofed to be more loyal... blush

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:52:02

really, I can't take this talk seriously any more, plus have work to do. This was very engaging conversation...

Flisspaps Wed 13-Feb-13 10:53:14

What you mean is, you're off because no-one is taking any of your points seriously wink

Xenia Wed 13-Feb-13 10:54:33

Men who have had it done have no knowledge of how sex would be for them had it not been done and they are unlikely to go around admitting sex is worse than with it. They just cannot know because their parents chose to mutilate them without their consent.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 10:55:39

you can take it this way flisspaps, it would not make a slightest difference to me. But to clarify I off because I have to provide for my family, self employed you see, pay check does not come to me just by sitting on my desk, gotta earn it, that is why I off.

Trazzletoes Wed 13-Feb-13 10:56:05

Is she really saying that circumcised men don't cheat?

Snusmumriken Wed 13-Feb-13 10:58:33

Nelly- Mumsnetters are going out of their way to respond to your arguments. It would be courteous of you to respond to our points and not to be so flippant.

*And I would not do it to my daughter either
Because then it would be genital mutilation.*

THIS^

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 11:00:17

I did say in my case right not in general. smile

Flisspaps Wed 13-Feb-13 11:02:18

nelly I too am self employed to provide for my family. Fortunately I work such hours as to allow me to engage in discussions on MN in the middle of the day rather than having to suddenly vanish.

Branleuse Wed 13-Feb-13 11:03:18

my friend had her two boys circumcised as babies as her muslim ex husband wanted them done. She said it was incredibly traumatic

Hilarious point about US cancer survival rates. Can we also look at the numbers of Americans who end up bankrupt when they get a life threatening illness? Or how about looking at the rising maternal mortality rates?
Circumcision is unnecessary unless a specific medical need is identified. If you're worried about your son not being accepted because of his penis hmm then maybe teach him not to show it to anyone, bar serious partners. It shouldn't be a problem then.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 13-Feb-13 11:11:05

Nelly, you have talked a lot about how important choice is. I agree with you. It is very important that people are able to make an informed consensual choice about circumcision.

However, when you circumcise a baby you do it to the baby, and you take away your babies choice. Your baby cannot consent.

If you truly believe in the importance of choice then you should wait until your baby is grown and able to make their own choice about whether or not they wish to remain intact.

A choice made for someone else isn't really a choice for that person is it. Surely a choice about the removal of a foreskin should be made by the owner of said foreskin?

amirah85 Wed 13-Feb-13 11:12:12

necessity is subjective...for me and many other people religious reasons are as if not more valid then medical reasons.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 11:23:41

Flisspaps I have some much work that keeps me busy, I am very happy about that, thank you very much! I'll concentrate on my money making potential at the moment not on this very important conversation so I can keep putting food on the table and have these tax payments coming... otherwise they could potentially cut another maternity unit and A&E in my area. I already have to drive 30 minutes to the closest one.
Also I think I stated all my points already. Whatever I say everyone will disagree and already did... so whats the point.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 11:24:36

No. It is not acceptable for religious reasons either. People have always done evil things in the name of religion. It doesn't mean you have to keep doing them.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 11:26:29

Babynelly- your points seem to be that if you're not circumcised you get teased. Oh, and circumcised men are more faithful than uncircumcised ones. Hmm. I wonder why people aren't taking you very seriously.

EmmaNess Wed 13-Feb-13 11:32:25

Genuine question for the circumcisors: why don't you let your boys decide for themselves when they are teenagers, or adults?

Is it purely a pain issue? Surely if they really wanted it done they'd put up with a bit of short term pain?

I mean this for those who circumcise their boys for non-religious reasons.

babynelly2010 Wed 13-Feb-13 11:36:14

seeker, i did not say that, you said it...
i obviously people taking this very seriously other wise this would not be still going. I already wrote a farewell and also said that the seriousness could not continue from that point as it is becoming unserious now like few pages ago... Also never wrote that the people with uncircumcised penis are cheaters. Stop manipulating my words. Word cheater never was anywhere in my posts...

5madthings Wed 13-Feb-13 11:38:08

I think its barbaric unless done for medical reasons.

My eldest almost needed to be circumcised for medical reasons but thankfully a short course if steroid cream resolved the problem. He is much happier to have an intact penis.

Snusmumriken Wed 13-Feb-13 11:40:11

People are taking it seriously because mutalating a babies genitals is very serious.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 11:42:08

"had a long term boyfriend with foreskin before, his also functioned normally...
In my case I thought that the penis without the foreskin proofed to be more loyal... "
Well, I certainly took this to mean that a circumcised penis was a loyal penis! Maybe because it has such high self esteem because of not being bullied like all the poor uncircumcised penii. I suppose it could also mean that the circumcised penii were nasty bullying types, though. Having bits cut off you without your consent can do that to an organ.

MadameJosephine Wed 13-Feb-13 11:49:33

It absolutely disgusts me that there are people who think that it is a valid 'choice' to mutilate their child. Whatever the gender of the child or the body part involved it is simply wrong to remove part of your child's body unless there is a valid medical reason. Why do some people find this difficult to understand?

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Wed 13-Feb-13 11:57:19

I had a boyfriend who had been circ'd at around 4yo, apparently due to medical issues. He was cross about it as he said it impaired the sensation for him, I'm not sure how he worked this out, but there you go.

I definitely prefer a man to have everything in place. It makes more sense to me that way.

Can't say much on the politics of circumcision but to me it's a hateful and monstrous thing to do to a child without a good reason.

Bunbaker Wed 13-Feb-13 13:58:24

"this is an argument obviously I will not win here, it is fine... But would you name your son a "craphead" or "idiot" just so he will suffer a ridicule to the rest of his life.... It will not give him harm initially, but the suffering to the rest of his life will be far more greater... "

Of course you won't because your reasons for circumcision are ridiculous and unreasonable. How do men get ridiculed anyway?Do they walk around the US with everything hanging out? How would anyone else other than the man's partner(s) now whether he had been circumcised?

SmileAndPeopleSmileWithYou Wed 13-Feb-13 15:04:11

exactly bunbaker. I asked this a while ago but never got an answer. What a ridiculous reason!

PandaWatch Wed 13-Feb-13 15:36:27

"Wasnt slavery once legal and morally acceptable in the UK?

There should be a version of godwins law for this sort of crap. "

This is true. It was also abolished in the UK waaaaay before the US. Maybe the US will take the UK's lead on circumcision too eventually smile

AYetiAteMe Wed 13-Feb-13 16:33:29

Those of you who came to yell at me earlier. I read the thread before I posted.

My son has a circumcised penis because he had serious, repeated infections which if left untreated would have caused terrible damage and the possibility of not being able to get an erection when he was older.

I perfectly well understand that what people are referring to is the practice of circumcision for non-medical reasons. They are referring to it as genital mutilation. As my son is circumcised they are, therefore, referring to him as mutilated.

If you met an amputee would you describe them as mutilated? For whatever reason they were an amputee?

My opinion on non-medical circumcision is neither here nor there but there are many of us who have had to have our children 'mutilated' by your definition for their health and referring to their genitals as now being mutilated is offensive. I take offence at it. I am neither obtuse or misunderstanding.

If you can't understand the point I am making now, Trazzle, whowhatwherewhen then perhaps you are being deliberately obtuse.

atacareercrossroads Wed 13-Feb-13 16:41:29

AYeti - If someone gets their arm cut off in an attack they are usually described as being 'mutilated', if someone has to have their arm amputated for medical reasons, then they have had to have their arm amputated.

Its the intent behind the action which makes us describe it as mutilated. You know really we aren't referring to people who have had to have it done for medical reasons so stop seeing offence where there isn't any.

PandaWatch Wed 13-Feb-13 16:49:30

I understand why you find it upsetting Yeti and think mutilation is an inappropriate term to use. My DH is circumcised (religious reasons) and is perfectly functional in all ways. I would certainly not consider him mutilated. However, I wouldn't choose to circumcise any sons we have unless it was for medical reasons because it's an unnecessary risk and causes unnecessary pain and suffering.

Trazzletoes Wed 13-Feb-13 17:33:14

Of course I can see what you are saying yeti.

I completely disagree with non-medical circumcision myself. When my DS was a baby we were told that he may require circumcision after suffering the worst case of balanitis the Drs at our local hospital had ever seen. The circumcision would have been medically necessary. I do not have a problem with that at all.

I don't think your DS has been mutilated. I'm sorry that that is the impression that you have got from this thread as the posters have been pretty unanimous on making a distinction between medically necessary circumcision and that which isn't.

No one has made any comments regarding the boys who have had this done and I can probably speak for just about everyone on here who would never judge a man on his penis whether it was circumcised or not. I certainly don't care what DH's is like.

As the poster below said, it's the intention behind the action. Most of us would (gladly?) have our sons circumcised to help with problems such as your DS', regardless of our views on it as an automatic practice on some newborn babies.

By the way, I wasn't shouting at you before. I honestly thought the distinction between medically-necessary circumcision and other types had been made quite clear up-thread. Apparently not.

Trazzletoes Wed 13-Feb-13 17:53:33

Of course I can see what you are saying yeti.

I completely disagree with non-medical circumcision myself. When my DS was a baby we were told that he may require circumcision after suffering the worst case of balanitis the Drs at our local hospital had ever seen. The circumcision would have been medically necessary. I do not have a problem with that at all.

I don't think your DS has been mutilated. I'm sorry that that is the impression that you have got from this thread as the posters have been pretty unanimous on making a distinction between medically necessary circumcision and that which isn't.

No one has made any comments regarding the boys who have had this done and I can probably speak for just about everyone on here who would never judge a man on his penis whether it was circumcised or not. I certainly don't care what DH's is like.

As the poster below said, it's the intention behind the action. Most of us would (gladly?) have our sons circumcised to help with problems such as your DS', regardless of our views on it as an automatic practice on some newborn babies.

By the way, I wasn't shouting at you before. I honestly thought the distinction between medically-necessary circumcision and other types had been made quite clear up-thread. Apparently not.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 20:19:27

But the fact remains that circumcisions an unable to consent baby for any other than medical reasons is mutilation. And we must continue to say this loud and clear till it stops. We must make the distinction between medical and social reasons, but we must not lt this stop us condemning the practice for non medical reasons.

Muminwestlondon Wed 13-Feb-13 20:28:59

I have had two circumcised boyfriends, both of whom were obsessed with the idea of what an unmutilated penis with a foreskin looked like during sexual activity. I think it does cause psychological damage. Incidentally the most obsessed one was Australian. The other one had it done for medical reasons as a young boy and had no sexual self confidence because he had always felt different - was teased at boarding school etc.

CarlingBlackMabel Wed 13-Feb-13 21:19:55

AYeti makes a fair point.

Imagine a 12 year old circumcised boy reading this thread, hysteria about circumcision, talk of mutilation, non-functioning penises, shock horror. It wouldn't be altogether unsurprising if he felt like a complete freak. Not good at the start of your adolescence.

I'm not in favour of routince circumcision of babies, but the long term effects can't be all that disastrous, or it would have died out by some Darwinian process.

We need to be careful that in zeal to educate against routine circumcision the necessarily circumcised don't feel stigma.

CarlingBlackMabel Wed 13-Feb-13 21:23:28

I have had many several a few circumcised partners and none of them suffered weird obsessions, lack of confidence or any noticeable ill-effects at all.

And your point about teasing, Muminwestlondon, emphasises the importance of not demonising circumcision.

Poor boy. sad angry

AYetiAteMe Thu 14-Feb-13 06:53:16

<hugs carlingBlackMabel for making point so eloquently and understanding the point I was trying to make>

To address the op - I live in Australia and have given birth to two baby boys in the last sixteen months, and I can assure you that it is most certainly not routine or normal to have them circumcised. It is never even mentioned.

Anyhow, I strongly feel that this thread has been started specifically to cause the arguments that it already has.

Muminwestlondon Thu 14-Feb-13 08:57:01

Carlingblackmabel - yes you are quite right. It is the reaction of other people that causes the damage, not the operation itself. Thinking about it, my friend lives in Israel and had loads of boyfriends before settling down and never thought of it as an issue, because it is normal there.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Thu 14-Feb-13 09:05:54

'
I'm not in favour of routince circumcision of babies, but the long term effects can't be all that disastrous, or it would have died out by some Darwinian process.'

just like FGM has died out then?

Trazzletoes Thu 14-Feb-13 09:06:54

Carling my understanding from this thread is that no one (or at leastnot many) people have said there would be weird obsessions etc would be side effects...

None of us would look any differently at a man whether or not he was circumcised. Whatever his penis looks like is pretty much irrelevant really.

What we struggle to understand (and object to) is why parents would allow a painful operation on their newborn baby essentially for aesthetic reasons. THAT is the argument and completely separate from having the operation done for medical reasons.

Especially as the OP isn't even seeking to rely on religious reasons and seems to just want her DS circumcised for the fun of it.

Trazzletoes Thu 14-Feb-13 09:09:32

And mum do you know people who would "judge" a circumcised penis?

The only girls I know that have any opinion on this are Muslims who clearly would only really have sex with a circumcised man but openly describe uncircumcised men as "dirty" for still having a foreskin. I don't know anyone who has the opposing attitude.

SirBoobAlot Thu 14-Feb-13 09:14:40

You're worried about hygiene? Hey, here's a suggestion that doesn't involve assaulting your baby with a knife. Are you ready? It's quite complicated...

TEACH HIM TO WASH.

shock

You wipe an intact penis like you do a finger. Don't retract the foreskin, and leave him the hell alone.

Makes me sick to see that MGM is still alive and kicking when FGM is seen as so horrific... They're both equally wrong. Not your body, not your choice.

Flisspaps Thu 14-Feb-13 12:10:04

Carling alternatively, if the foreskin was such a general hazard to health and hygiene, surely by boys would have evolved to be born without one at all?

atacareercrossroads Thu 14-Feb-13 12:19:23

I believe circumcision just for the hell of it should be demonised, not the actual penis afterwards, because the poor bloody thing, and the boy attached to it, didnt have a choice in the matter. But I'd like to see parents who have chosen to do it for no reason other than medical necessity absolutely be demonised. I for one would never ever judge a male for having a circumcised penis for non medical reasons, Id judge my arse off at the parents though.

Only then will circumcision for vanity/"social" reasons (cutting off a bit of a baby for social reasons WTAF!!!) eventually die out. I think its a while off, but we'll get there smile

SamG76 Thu 14-Feb-13 14:36:24

Ataccr

"But I'd like to see parents who have chosen to do it for no reason other than medical necessity absolutely be demonised....I'd judge my arse off at the parents..."

Let me know what life is like without a backside! seriously, though, what form will this demonisation take? My sons have been circ'ed as will any future ones. What would you propose? should we be locked up now? Who'll fund the prison building scheme?

I note that leannac doesn't seem to have returned, presumably because very few have answered her question, but are just yaddering on self-righteously, as is usual with this topic....

atacareercrossroads Thu 14-Feb-13 15:01:32

I am self righteous about babies being out through pain and having bits of them cut off without medical reason. I make no apologies for that.

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 15:38:28

What is self righteous about objecting to a child being put through pain for no reason at all?

I'll check back for the unanswered question- hang on.

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 15:40:25

Sorry, I didn't realize the unanswered question was "who can I get to perform needless surgery on my un consenting new born baby." Not really surprising it's largely unanswered, is it?

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 15:42:11

"Let me know what life is like without a backside! seriously, though, what form will this demonisation take? My sons have been circ'ed as will any future ones. What would you propose? should we be locked up now? Who'll fund the prison building scheme?"

You would no doubt be prosecuted for grievous bodily harm if you deliberately cut the tip off your new born's finger. The same law could, and should apply to circumcision.

SamG76 Thu 14-Feb-13 15:56:47

The unanswered question, for those who struggle with the "scroll up" button, was "how to I go about getting it done". A few answered it, but not many.

I don't think OP was asking for general views on the subject. Similarly, if someone lived with their DP and was having DC4 in the Easington area, I think she should be entitled to ask for tips on the local hospitals without having to listen to views on (1) living in Durham generally (2) the benefits of marriage (3) overpopulation generally (4) the advantages of homebirths, etc....

CheerfulYank Thu 14-Feb-13 15:56:56

Unfortunately in some parts of America it is "different" for men who are uncirc'd. Actually, mostly for boys who have to change in the locker room in school. I know someone whose son told her he hated her for not having it done to him sad anbd went on to have it done as a teen.

My DS is circumcised. I didn't want it done, but the pediatrician was quite firm, I was in the midst of a terrible depression and exhausted from giving birth.

Any future DS's will not be circ'd but tbh I am very worried about it as they'll definitely be in the minority.

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 16:02:07

And if the OP had said "my religion says that I have to cut the very tip off my baby's little finger, who can I get to do it for me, please" we wouldn't be allowed to tell her it was barbaric and wicked? Why is it different for a penis?

SamG76 Thu 14-Feb-13 16:24:37

Because (reppeats for the hard of hearing) OP could have asked "I'm thinking of having, eg, a brit", and canvassed opinions. If I recall, plenty of people have asked exactly that question, but OP didn't, so suggesting she wasn't interested in your views on the subject. By analogy, I might think that having children out of wedlock is a bad idea, and cruel to the child, but if I provided this view unrequested to every single parent who posted, I would rightly be considered a prat.

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 16:30:05

Having a child out of wedlock (you quaint old fashioned thing) does not involve cutting a piece of them off.

I repeat. What if I told you that my religion required me to cut the very tip off my baby's little finger? What would you say to me?

SamG76 Thu 14-Feb-13 16:47:32

It's not relevant. Similarly, I don't ask Muslims what they would do if the laws of Ramadhan said that you weren't allowed to eat at all for 30 days (rather than just during hours of daylight). Islam, like Judaism, has a common law, and if the rules caused serious problems to large numbers of people, they would have been adapted. I'm very touched that you're concerned about the fate of my kids, and vast numbers of others across the world, but I'm sure there are worthier subjects for your concern....

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 17:02:07

Why isn't it relevant? Would you say it was my choice to cut the tip off my child's finger?

atacareercrossroads Thu 14-Feb-13 17:12:00

having a child out of wedlock (really?) does not cause physical needless pain

HTH

Oh sorry you meant 'bad' analogy, not 'by' analogy, damn autocorrect eh?

SirBoobAlot Thu 14-Feb-13 19:28:54

If anyone is casually asking about mutilating their child, I think the correct answer is "don't be a twat" not, "Sure, use this guy!", like you do discussing hair dressers.

Rhianna1980 Fri 15-Feb-13 00:04:47

Not changing the subject but Many people take about genital hygiene here as a solution to this controversial argument . Wiping the willy is not enough to stay clean after using the toilet. would you wipe your hand with a napkin if you accidentally touch wee or poo ? Ofcourse not ! You would properly wash. Having lived In another country where bidets are the norm in all bathrooms I bet up that on average the bum and front of a person who uses a bidet every time they use the toilet is cleaner than that of a person who doesn't
Circumcision or not . Wiping is not enough .

Bunbaker Fri 15-Feb-13 08:12:24

"Wiping is not enough"

Isn't it. Are doctors' waiting rooms full of uncircumcised men with infections? I don't think so.

Namely Fri 15-Feb-13 08:18:59

So why is wiping bums and fanjos enough? Maybe girls should have them smoothed out so there aren't any nooks and crannies either! And yes, I am aware that crannies rhymes with fannies. <childish>

SirBoobAlot Fri 15-Feb-13 08:38:49

Of course it's enough, along with normal washing / showering. Don't be a tit. The foreskin if left in place has the same PH neutralizing bacteria as the vagina. Same as douching isn't needed, wiping an intact penis is fine.

atacareercrossroads Fri 15-Feb-13 08:48:07

If wiping wasn't enough vaginas and penises would be falling off all over the place.

Wiping not enough, heard it all now grin

Xenia Fri 15-Feb-13 09:29:32

My mother who could be rather wise said the Jews and Muslims invented those rules about circumcisim and many o the diet rules based on desert conditions, hot countries and the like (pork and sea food etc go off in heat). What was appropriate 2000 years ago in deserts is not justified now in London or New York. English boys are luckier as most boys are not subjected to this in the UK so it is pretty rare to see someone who is. American boys are still routinely mutilated in this way without their express consent.

Rhianna1980 Fri 15-Feb-13 10:02:18

Xenia your post is bordering on racist here and adds no value to the circumcision argument.
So your mum thinks that the reason of all these laws are there because of the desert hot conditions Judaism started from? I'm not a Jew , never been to Palestine/Israel where judaism started yet I am lucky enough to be educated and know that these places are far from being deserts. How ignorant of ur mum and yourself. The heat never stopped Muslims or Jews from consuming meats as even in the old times they knew how to preserve foods from heat in the summer. The prohibition of pork is because of other reasons rather than just the hot weather as ur mum claims. Go and research it .
People can choose what they want to eat and how to live their lives , stop feeling threatened by them .

ScumbagCollegeDropout Fri 15-Feb-13 12:10:32

Rhianna may I ask why you decided to circumcise your son/s if not for religious or medical reasons?

Rhianna1980 Fri 15-Feb-13 12:30:57

I haven't circumcised my kids but I am lucky enough to be brought up in a multicultural family to learn tolerance of other people's views on the things. People are free to do what they want. It is not illegal here and done on the NHS in some areas in the UK. What is the fuss? Each mum and dad can mind their own boys' willies for the time being until the laws change and it becomes illegal.

atacareercrossroads Fri 15-Feb-13 12:50:50

"People are free to do what they want"
"What is the fuss?"

So as Seeker and I have said above, what is your stance is we wanted to cut our kids limbs off to save them the pain and suffering of breaking them, getting nail infections, athletes foot etc etc, Thats ok is it? After all, people can choose what they how to live their lives (which is a bloody daft statement when referring to circumcision as the male doesnt get HIS choice in the matter) and shouldn't be challenged because its their belief innit hmm

Some beliefs condone the ritual sacrifice of children who they believe to be possessed by demons. Thats alright aswell? good stuff.

MrsMushroom Fri 15-Feb-13 13:00:51

rhianna 'minding them' should NOT include chopping bits off. Bits that are needed! My DH resents his parents hugely for doing this to him. His penis does not work as well as it should in terms of sex OR masturbation. This is due to a big fuck off piece of it being missing.

It's made his penis over sensitive.

SirBoobAlot Fri 15-Feb-13 17:04:41

What's the fuss? It's not their body. Why the hell should they have the right to decide to remove a body part because they don't like it?!

Any unnecessary cosmetic bullshit that kills babies every single year is something to make a fuss about.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now