New Mum to be - totally baffled by rear facing versus lie flat options - please help!

[Bryher]

Hi, I'm pregnant with my first, 18+1, and am totally baffled by pushchair and car seat options. Every time I think I've decided on something I come across another review which puts me off. Am even starting to agree with colleagues and family that I spend too much time reading and researching these things.

My cousin is giving us a second hand Graco Junior baby car seat, guaranteed not in a crash. I can't really find any info on the safety of these, they're not covered by WHICH reports which I've been looking at. I then looked at Mumsnet reviews, and discovered www.mumsnet.com/Reviews/CarSeatsFromBirth/48-besafe-izi-combi-isofix and www.rearfacing.co.uk/ . This convinced me I wanted a rear facing car seat for as long as possible. For some reason although the BeSafe is sold as from birth, the manufacturers only recommend it from 6 months. So I thought "great, I'll buy a second hand Graco pushchair, use the Graco car seat at first and then my parents could buy us the BeSafe (they'd offered to buy travel system) to use 6 months+"

I then read various Graco pushchair (compatible with Junior Baby) reviews and discovered none of them were very good /popular. I also discovered this website www.carseatinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?sid=19086&pid=292365 which pretty much says there's not enough evidence for rearfacing being better; and that you should only have newborns in flat car seats, which the Graco isn't.

My brain hurts!

Should I buy a newborn car seat, even it will only be usable for 9 months ish, rather than use the Graco? Is the cost of a whole travel system actually worth it when it will only be usable while baby is small?

Is the Graco all right to use, in which case can anyone suggest a good compatible pushchair?

Who is right about rear facing car seats, and is the BeSafe a good idea? Or can anyone suggest another good rear facing car seat which would cover a similar age range?

Many thanks for any advice!

[isthismadness]

Well the bmj (British medical journal) has looked at the evidence and they think rear facing is 5X safer up to the age of 4.

Not sure if you can get lie flat car seats in this country? I know in Australia you can get these lie flat pod things but not sure of their safety record compared to rear facing

Call the in car safety centre at Milton Keynes. They give fantastic advice. Ask to speak to car safety officer esp one who knows about rearfacing

[BertieBotts]

That carseatinfo site is a bit suspect TBH.

The lie flat seats are okay, but the only ones that actually do at all well in crash tests are the Britax Babysafe Sleeper. The Jane one does okay but only in upright mode - so pointless as a lie flat one. The other seats they "recommend" on that website do appallingly in crash tests. The Britax one is really expensive and will only last until 4-6 months depending on the size of your baby.

The benefit of lie flat over semi-upright (all infant seats are rear facing) is that it reduces the factor of infants lying in the chin-to-chest position which can reduce oxygen saturations. This isn't harmful for a short time but if baby is kept in the carseat for more than around 2 hours at a time it is dangerous.

TBH the Graco seat is a good, deep seat, I'd use that unless your baby is born very premature, in which case the lie flat option becomes more important as oxygen desaturations are more dangerous. But TBH if they were that premature they wouldn't be out of hospital until they were bigger anyway.

HTH and I didn't just confuse you more

[jesieb]

IMO the lie flat ones ate great if you have money to burn. By 12 weeks when awake DS wanted to see what's going on, lieing flat wasn't a happy place for him when he could not see anything - on the open floor was fine, in the pram wasn't. So if he was in a lie flat seat he would of been out of it at 12 weeks.
Unless you regulary travel long distances, then I would agree they are good. But if you just potter to town and back, or an hour is a long journey for you, I honestly wouldn't get one.
We bought a car seat which is from birth and then will last until he's ready for a booster.

If it wasn't safe they would not allow them to be sold!

The problem with the birth to 9kg car seats is that people use them not only for car seats, but to carry them around in, to allow them sleep longer - so leaving them in car seat when in the house, and to put them on travel systems. The problem with this is a baby should be led flat to help the spin develop and strengthen properly. Being in a car seat, at the angle they make you sit is no good.

As for travel systems, as already stated above. If your going to attach car seat they are bad for spinal development, and everyone I know who has had them sold them really early on.

HTH

[EauRouge]

Newborn seats aren't necessarily only up to 9 months, it depends on the size of your baby. DD1 was in her maxi cosi until she was about 13 mo, then she went into a RF britax 2 way elite. I second the recommendation for the In Car Safety Centre in MK, they are very helpful and have loads of choice.

[BertieBotts]

That's true also what Eau said. DS fitted into his newborn seat until 18 months, I was happy to put him forward facing then, but in a Kiddy seat which has an impact cushion rather than a harness - less strain on the spine in a crash as it curves around the cushion bit rather than jerking at the neck.

However I think the Graco ones are a few cm shorter than the Britax or the Maxi Cosi (RF not lie flat) infant seats. So not a problem if you want to switch to an extended rearfacing seat anyway, but if you're planning to use it as long as possible before FF then it's not the best choice. DS had a mothercare one which is the same as the maxi cosi with less padding (and about a third of the price )

Not necessarily true that if it isn't safe they wouldn't sell it. Our crash test requirements in this country are pretty low, 30mph I think. Look on youtube for crash tests of carrycot seats which go sideways across two back seats of the car - I would never use one after seeing them.

[BertieBotts]

Okay I can't find any videos now - if you google "carrycot crash test" it comes up with the original Which? report from 2004 which has descriptions of the effects of the crash tests. You might think 7 years is a long time, but there haven't been any significant differences in the way carrycots have been manufactured since then (aside from the Britax Babysafe Sleeper which is unique in the way it is structured, I believe) and Which? still state on their website that all the carrycots they have tested, though legal in the car, didn't perform well enough in crash tests so they have listed all of them a Don't Buy.

[sazm]

yep,i was very surprised at the actual legal safety requirements for a car seat.
the only requirement is that the child has to be secured in the seat in a frontal crash at 30mph.

if you look on you tube, you will see some of the seats which,in a crash ay 40mph the child actually flies out of the seat!
they also dont have to have side impact protection!
madness!

its also not made note of enough,but not all carseats fit in all cars,so its finding the combination of which seat fits best and also which seat suits.as well as the safety of it!

[FlingonTheValiant]

By the way, the new Jane Matrix light (lie flat) is much much safer than the old one. It has a 5 point safety harness like the Britax, and has been redesigned on those lines. It now performs really well in European safety tests (compared to the old model). I think it hasn't yet been tested in the UK.

We thought we'd manage without a lie-flat, but had to drive to Marseille and back for a funeral 3 weeks ago. We went with the Maxi Cosi and bought a lie flat seat for the way back as DS was so uncomfortable in his Maxi Cosi and all the stopping made the journey ridiculously long. He was 20 weeks at the time and fitted in it with room to spare, and he slept the whole time he was in it -miracle for us!

I wish I'd bought it when he was born and used it from birth, I think he'd have been a lot more comfortable. BUT they are really expensive, and we really thought we wouldn't be doing a long journey to justify it.

Anyway, we'll keep it for the next one and we will use it from birth then, and save the maxi cosi for when they're a bit bigger.

[BertieBotts]

But it's still sideways, unless I'm looking at something else, so how can it offer the same protection as the britax one which is rear facing to the direction of travel? The harnesses weren't the problem before as much as that carrycots just aren't designed to withstand impact, and spreading it over two seatbelt points rather than one weakens it too as a seatbelt is designed to be used on its own rather than in conjunction with another.

It's reassuring that it's done well in european safety tests though - are they more stringent than ours here?

[BertieBotts]

Oh no ignore me, the Britax one goes sideways too. I don't know why I thought it went straight on to the seat.

I see the Jane one is getting an isofix base soon which seems like a great idea.

[FlingonTheValiant]

Yes, I'm hoping when the base comes out they won't have changed the seat again and we'll be able to retrofit.

The harness was an issue with it. All bar (previously) the britax went across the waist, and in crash tests the baby basically folded in half and would have sustained serious internal injuries.

The 5 point harness pins them in place more securely, so they're better protected.

[Bryher]

Thank you all for your advice, I really appreciate it :) I've had a look at the BMJ article (thanks isthismadness) and it does seem quite convincing.

BertieBotts - no, you didn't confuse me more, what you said made perfect sense and I did have a gut feeling that the carseatinfo site might be a bit off... Certainly didn't seem to support some of the other reviews I'd seen. Thanks for the Graco recommendation as well, I've not actually seen it yet so good to know it looks OK. Thanks for the advice on carry cots as well, if I was to get one it would prob be the Britax Babysafe Sleeper but I just can't thoil spending that much money for such a short time!

jesieb Definitely don't have money to burn so I don't think it's worth getting a lie flat one just for that short space of time, have just told DH we won't be able to go on long journeys for a little while! Also useful advice about travel systems, thanks

Eaurouge wish I was closer to Milton Keynes, though may well try and give them a ring. Think I will try Paul Stride, based in York and stocks RF car seats, it's a bit more local. Does anyone have experience with them?

Flingon I did wonder about the Jane ones, but they are soo expensive! I think, like you were, I'm hoping we won't have to do a long journey for a while. Will bear in mind your experience and buy one before we set off we have to do a long journey though, thank you :)

Loopymumsy thanks,I think you're right. I plan to stick with the Graco and then get an extended RF car seat for approx 6 months plus. Was looking for a second hand Graco pushchair, but re-reading this thread (and the reviews) I've decided not worth it, I'll just have to risk baby waking up when I take him/her out of the car!

So, next plan, find a nice lie flat pushchair which doesn't cost £100s, and will last for a while

Thanks all :)

[EauRouge]

See if there's an NCT sale near you, they are great for cheap but decent second-hand pushchairs, prams etc.

[raindroprhyme]

the mamas and papas solo is a nice pushchair that lies totally flat and faces both ways, i got one when DS was a year old for the car and wish i had had it form birth

[Carseatcrazy]

Don't want to confuse you, but just thought I'd mention that the KISS (I think sold by the incarsafety centre), is also known as the Acto Graco Duologic II and is an extended rearfacing car seat till 4, but with a removable seat that acts as a baby seat and can be attached to graco pushchairs. The car seat is isofix or belt fitted, and is one of three (along with the besafe) to have passed the swedish plus test :) I have one along with my besafe and love them both. Just thought I'd mention it in case it was helpful - I hope it doesn't make things more tricky though :)!!!!

[lenats31]

www.carseatinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?sid=19086&pid=292365

They are just trying to push their range I guess!

The information they have put on their site is based on lack of knowledge - pure and simple.

The only point that is correct or SEEMINGLY is correct, is that ERF seats need more space than FF seats.

the truth is that FF seats are made so the child will go fast forward in high energy crash type like frontal crashes by 500-550 mm from vertical line. Parents have to count that in when pushing back their front seats. After all no-one want their child to hit the head on the front seat and suffer head and neck-compression injuries.

When purchsing an ERF seat the orientation of the seat sees to that this does not happen.

rear shunts are low-energy crashes. cars are travelling in the same direction. they are not serious even if one car is holding still. It will be pushed in forward motion upon impact, and so crash forces aren´t dangerously high. Furthermore, if one car is holding still, it´s usually because it is wainting for a trafic light to go green, and so the impact speed is very low.

Lena

[DancingThroughLife]

I know the conversation has moved on slightly, but we had the Britax lie flat sleeper for DD. At 10mo she is still within the weight limit, but we've moved her out because we have an extended rear facer for her (and I was reeeeaally excited about her using it )

It is a 3-point harness - two straps come down over her shoulders, one up between her legs. They don't fasten at the side. The handle on the seat forms a roll cage, and it fastens to each seat beltat the end that's anchored to the car, rather than the bit that pulls in and out, so it hardly moves when you've got it fitted.

DD loved it in hers, and I always felt that she looked more comfy than if she had been in a 'normal' infant carrier. She could see out of the window as she was facing it. I think she had a better view than if she'd have been in a carrier. But that's all academic as that's not what you buy car seats for.

We chose the lie flat one as we were driving to France - about a 10 hour trip - when DD was 8 weeks old. We didn't want to be stopping every two hours to air her if she was still sleeping and double our journey time. Also, it meant we could have a lie flat pram without buying another attachment!

It fits on the Britax BSmart wheels in the same way as other car seats do. The B Smart also lies flat, and faces front or parent. They used to be called the Vigour, and there are plenty around on ebay.

Sorry, that's turned into a bit of an essay . I'll answer more questions if you have any though. Just thought I'd give you my experiences.

[yankiedoodledandy]

We've got a Besafe Izi Combi for DS, he's 13.5 months and has been in it since 7 months. It's good but he does prefer going in Granny's forward facing seat! I'm going to keep him rear facing as long as I can though as I believe they are so much safer. It's huge though, I've got a 5dr Golf and it fits ok but there's not much legroom in the front passenger side now! Also the recline on it (as with all RF car seats I believe) is a bit rubbish, we have it on permanent 'recline' and it's pretty much upright, was a bit of a concern at first as DS' head would fall forward when he was asleep, not such a problem now he's a bit bigger. Agree though the whole pram/ car seat thing is a minefield! Good luck