What's your best burping technique?

(221 Posts)
rumtumtugger Tue 01-Oct-13 08:13:48

I'd like to try out some new tried and tested techniques for getting those last stubborn pockets of air out!

tiktok Tue 01-Oct-13 09:14:41

But how do you know, how does anyone know, there are 'stubborn pockets of air'? smile

Sunflower1985 Tue 01-Oct-13 22:46:36

I learnt this today with an osteopath. It's a posture/ tummy time technique but if a bubble is there it will come up too. DC facing away from you straddling one thigh.
Hold under the arms with both hands with thumbs resting under the shoulder blades. Rotate alternate shoulders forward like they're swimming front crawl, lifting slightly to elongate their torso. Then do back crawl for a bit.

I also like sitting them on your lap and rotating their torso like doing a hula.

hettienne Tue 01-Oct-13 22:49:10

I just sat DS up - if he needed to burp, he did!

I don't understand all this jiggling and patting babies tbh confused

notwoo Tue 01-Oct-13 22:55:33

I liked the hula hoop type one where you sit the baby on your knee and move them round in a little circle if that makes sense.

rumtumtugger Thu 03-Oct-13 01:38:09

Tiktok, I can hear and feel air bubbles moving along her body. She's in windy agony and wakes up farting a lot.

What's the hula hoop one? Sounds intriguing! I can't quite picture how to do it!

mykingdomforasleep Thu 03-Oct-13 01:41:50

Sitting up, using heel of hand gently stroke up left handside of back.
The only useful thing I found in the baby whisperer book

AdoraBell Thu 03-Oct-13 01:58:11

With one of mine I had to do a circular movement covering the whole of her back from her waist to her shoulders.

ZingWantsCake Thu 03-Oct-13 02:24:44

imagine a bottle of fizzy drink.

if you rub the bottle gently nothing happens.
if you tap it little bubbles will be released - more if you start from the bottom and work your way up, tapping it all the time.

keep that in my mind.
baby upright, your hand on back just above nappy line and with your fingers start tapping the back, going up with each tap.
then repeat.
keep going for 5-10 mins, baby should burp!

UrethraFranklin Thu 03-Oct-13 14:49:07

I just sit her up and she does it herself. Worked better than anything else I've tried.

tasmaniandevilchaser Thu 03-Oct-13 20:32:19

my favourite is the corkscrew (it sounds like the hula hoop one people mentioned upthread)

also lying baby down for a few minutes, when you pick them up again they burp

Rowanred Thu 03-Oct-13 20:45:03

I don't think babies need "burping" ever. I have bad 2 babies and never "winded" or burped them. If they have gas holding them upright for a while may help but I don't think most babies do ( if they are bf anyway, not sure if bottle feeding introduces more air?)

ZingWantsCake Thu 03-Oct-13 21:10:43

rowan

most babies need burping or the trapped air wil travel down the gut and either make them a bit sick or give them painful wind.

bf babies need it just as much as ff, especially if they have tongue tie or other feeding issues.

some may not need burping or don't swallow that much air, but most do.

hettienne Thu 03-Oct-13 21:20:47

I don't think "most" do tbh. We have a bit of a cultural obsession with burping babies!

ZingWantsCake Thu 03-Oct-13 21:25:29

hetienne

sorry, but swallowing air while feeding is not a "cultural" thing!confused

babies all round the world have a reflex that helps them expel air, it's only natural to aid this!

I know people from many different countries/nationalities (if I must count, at least 20!), they all burp/ed their kids. it's nothing new.

hettienne Thu 03-Oct-13 21:47:39

Babies burp. The cultural thing is that we feel babies must be jiggled, patted etc after every feed to produce burps on demand.

FavoriteThings Thu 03-Oct-13 21:55:34

I could have done with this thread years ago! Mine were terrible. Projectile voomiters. If they werent burped or not enough or there was some air left, up came most of their milk, and we would have to start again.
Any hints or tips? Sorry not op. We really struggled. NOthing anybody did was better than anything else anyone tried.

tiktok Thu 03-Oct-13 22:39:18

"most babies need burping or the trapped air wil travel down the gut and either make them a bit sick or give them painful wind."

Oh dear.....where is the evidence for this???

Most babies need assistance with the natural process of getting rid of air?? And this involves complicated manoevres and handling....for most babies??

For a few, maybe. For most, no.

The jiggling, patting and goodness-knows-whatting we do with our babies is cultural.There's no harm in it, and as long as it's not overdone, babies may well like it.

But for most, it's not really like to be necessary smile

FavoriteThings Thu 03-Oct-13 22:44:56

tiktok, are you a medical person?

FavoriteThings Thu 03-Oct-13 22:47:38

Oh no. Just realised I am on the breast and bottle feeding topic shock. This topic doesnt have a good MN reputation as far as I know. grin

cogitosum Thu 03-Oct-13 22:56:16

I don't know about most but some certainly do. My ds really does and just sitting him up doesn't cut it. If I don't burp him he'll writhe and cry for ages.

I think the cultural thing comes from some cultures wearing their babies. I put ds in the sling loads and don't need to burp him as they just come up in there do cultures where they use slings a lot don't tend to burp their babies.

Patilla Thu 03-Oct-13 23:11:37

Ok getting back to the original question, I find the act of getting up from the sofa often worked.

DD who Is still a baby doesn't seem to need winding much she farts like a trooper instead much to her big brother's delight

DS on the other hand really needed help with burping as part of the management of his reflux. In desperation I would hold him upright looking over my shoulder behind me and walk up the stairs. Seemed to help, just a bit tiring as a regular method!

cogitosum Thu 03-Oct-13 23:24:45

I put ds on my shoulder and pat for about 10 seconds then put him on my knee and lean him forward with the palm of my hand on left hand side at the front. For some reason the combination seems to work.

tiktok Thu 03-Oct-13 23:43:03

I don't know why people get annoyed at the idea that burping is largely cultural! Or annoyed when people pose the notion that for many babies, all the jiggling etc is not essential (it's not harmful, and as I say, most babies won't mind).

Why are you annoyed, favouritethings?

It does seem that some babies are troubled by pains in the digestive tract, and that some babies are a lot happier after a good burp smile

But there is no real evidence that most babies need help with this...or if there is (not just anecdotes, because that's not 'most') evidence, share it.

I'm not medical but I do have a science background (I don't work as a scientist).

This folder is one where a lot of people get a lot of help - I don't know what you mean about it not having a good reputation.

AdoraBell Fri 04-Oct-13 00:31:26

Mine were born in Latin America and I saw loads of local people burping their babies. Maybe they have the same culture as the UKconfused

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 07:55:43

You have misquoted me tiktok. In fact, it isnt even my quote at all!

I also now understand your personality a bit better.

Do you work in labs tiktok? Have you or did you have babies yourself? Do you or have you worked in childcare?

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 07:58:50

My babies were so bad that they were still being sick when they first started crawling. shock. I seriously started to wonder if I was going to have the only children on the planet who would still be being sick even when crawling all the time, and when they stood up too! Fortunately it was after about 2 weeks of being able to crawl that they stopped being sick. Phew.

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 09:26:37

FavouriteThings, I don't know what I have done to annoy you, honestly. Sorry if have misquoted you - I can't see where I have done this! I quoted part of a post, but did not attribute it to you.

I am not saying no baby suffers from wind. I am not saying people should never burp.

I am asking for evidence that most babies must be burped because otherwise the wind travels through their system and causes pain. It is not credible that most babies are born without the ability to manage their 'excess' wind themselves.

Yes, many countries also burp their babies - it's very common. But it is still a cultural notion that all babies need to have it done to them. Usually the act of moving the baby to a sitting or semi-upright position allows the wind to be released and the patting etc is (probably) irrelevant - there's nothing wrong with doing it as long (obvs) it's not done to the point that a sleepy baby is kept awake smile

Really, I just don't get your challenging tone towards me, and you don't seem willing to explain, so I'm out smile

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 09:35:23

Not sure whether to respond or not. And you dont have to reply back to me.

You made it look like I was annoyed when I wasnt. I dont know if that was your intention, because it looked like that. Also your post made it look like that was my quote, when it wasnt.

fwiw, I have never "met" you on MN in my life before as far as I know.

I find posters wanting evidence for everything curious. A person doesnt do it in rl so I find it very odd that a few posters wont accept anything or consider anything on MN which doesnt agree with their life pov, unless there is "evidence".

So if for example there wre out of a birth rate of say 800,000 babies per year, "evidnce" that 300,000 need winding and 500,000 dont, what does that "prove"?

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 09:45:37

But, but......*FT*, my post with the quote came immediately after yours, but that does not mean it was a response to yours, or that I was quoting you....this is how a talkboard works, sometimes 'cross-posting' happens. Contiguous posts are not necessarily in conversation with each other (this is why there is a convention to use the poster's name at the start of a post, if it is directed at one person in particular).

You certainly sounded annoyed, with your comment about this folder having a bad rep! But maybe I got that wrong, sorry.

I don't know why it is odd to ask people for evidence - my concern was that when someone said (not you) that most babies are likely to be in pain unless they are winded, it adds to the worries and nervousness of new mothers...unnecessarily. If this is true, then I'd like to see evidence (there is none, AFAIK). I think mothers have enough worries without adding to them.

(Yes, I have had babies, since you ask - I have three children).

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 10:04:23

Thank you for your last post.

I dont know if Zing is right in saying "most" babies , or not. But I would say that there are a considerable number. But who can tell what number exactly. 300,000 or 600,000. Who knows? Which is why I asked whether you were in science or early years or whatever.

I dont think parents need to be worried either way. Just take babs along to the GP or health visitor. Absolutely all new parents need help. No shame in that.

I remember burping my twins and how the whole feeding process would take ages! I found rotating them on your knee helped to get out the stubborn wind and rocking them back and forth on gently on your knee. I would also sometimes put them on their stomach and rub their back.

The middle of the night feeds were the worst. Exhausted and trying to burp one tiny baby before her sister woke for her feed. How quickly the memories fade.

I started out with the opinion burping was a rather odd concept that I wouldn't bother with. I soon worked out that if I didn't dd would declare she was full, when all she actually was was full of air. 5 minutes into her nap she'd wake up screaming, sick up some milk, and then want another feed.

It was so much easier to just burp her, feed her until she was full, and put her down for her nap minus the wind bubble that would otherwise wake her up.

If this is a cultural thing on my part I'm amazed. I thought it was a sanity thing myself.

MrsPennyapple Fri 04-Oct-13 13:18:31

If I'm eating and need to burp, sitting up straight helps expel the air. Therefore it seems logical to me that a young baby who is unable to straighten their back might struggle to bring wind up. It feels uncomfortable to me if I don't expel that air, so it's reasonable to assume it's uncomfortable for a baby too. Therefore, based purely on my own experience, when I've fed DS, I will attempt to burp him.

If nothing is forthcoming I don't worry about it though, I might attempt a couple of positions but I don't spend ages on it. I'm more likely to try and encourage him to fart, as he has often taken ages to settle at night, and only gone to sleep once he's done a massive fart.

magicstars Fri 04-Oct-13 13:28:22

I was shown two great techniques by people not living in the UK. Sit baby with little legs between your legs, your leg with baby's bum on slightly raised and baby tilted forwards, hand around chin to support neck, stroke upwards. Taught by an elderly Algerian lady. Russian babies also need burping - Russian lady taught me a similar method to use whilst standing up, but too tricky to try and write down and effectively the same as the first.

Khaleese Fri 04-Oct-13 13:28:29

Pop on the knee and gently vibrate knee. No burping as such.

A friend brought her baby round and he was getting big slaps on the back!! I had to excuse myself.

minipie Fri 04-Oct-13 13:43:08

I am asking for evidence that most babies must be burped because otherwise the wind travels through their system and causes pain. It is not credible that most babies are born without the ability to manage their 'excess' wind themselves.

tiktok I agree there's no evidence (unless you count infacol and gripe water sales, which I don't). but I disagree that it's not credible. that's like saying "it's not credible that most babies need help in order to fall asleep when they are tired" or "it's not credible that most babies will have to go through pain in order to get their teeth". both these things seem like cruel design flaws which you'd think evolution would have sorted out, but nonetheless they appear to be true. same applies to inability to burp/discomfort if wind is not expelled. I think the "fourth trimester" theory has a lot of sense.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Fri 04-Oct-13 13:43:14

Both of my babies were little windbags. DD especially really suffered if she wasn't burped (think knees up to her chin and screaming in pain and discomfort) and was sometimes violently sick as a result.

I found hoiking baby up under the armpits and 'bumping' them on my lap slightly while they leaned forward a bit helped. My stepmum swore by walking up and down the stairs (burns some calories at the same time) once or twice. My sister was a stubborn burper apparently.

MissYamabuki Fri 04-Oct-13 13:48:20

DD never needed burping. She was mixed-fed and if she needed to burp after a feed, she would - little burps, big burps, hilariously massive burps - without intervention. But mostly she wouldn't burp and settled happily.

MIL was obsessed with wind and burping and during her visits would insist on snatching DD as soon as she was finished for the (apparently compulsory) 10-15 mins of back slapping and changing positions. She would get increasingly worked up if The Burp didn't materialise. DD would miss her sleep window and get very upset indeed, then MIL would say "you see, she's got wind". Just give me my baby back FFS.

I do realise for some people trapped wind can be a problem, but I wouldn't assume an uncomfortable baby needs burping.

Good luck smile

lpbarton Fri 04-Oct-13 14:04:10

pop your little one on your arm, head up elbow end with arms and legs dangling down and gentle bump their bottom. Hugh relief and a bug burp!

Ohnoididntdidi Fri 04-Oct-13 14:07:49

Sit them up straight on a hard surface then bend them forwards, trying to keep their back straight

Sunflower1985 Fri 04-Oct-13 14:16:48

Any good tips for trapped wind at the other end. My ds is getting this every morning for the past 2 weeks from 4am to 7am ish. Straining and grumbling. Struggling to sleep and making himself sick. I cycle his legs and have some massage techniques, but wonder if there's anything else I can do??

MrTumblesKnickers Fri 04-Oct-13 15:37:14

This is really interesting, I had no idea there was controversy surrounding burping! DD wasn't a particularly windy baby and was also carted around in a sling most of the time so was upright.

However, my ILs were obsessed with burping her, whenever they held her it was always standing, whilst patting and jiggling. Even when she was obviously quite comfortable, it used to drive me mad.

marzipananimal Fri 04-Oct-13 16:05:48

both mine pretty much burped themselves, I just sat them upright after a feed and maybe stroked their backs a bit to straighten them

NoComet Fri 04-Oct-13 16:06:12

Surely the idea is baby feeds, baby falls a sleep.

Jiggling baby wakes it up, therefore I never did.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 16:14:10

Star. But baby couldnt possibly fall asleep as baby hadnt taken much feed. And couldnt and wouldnt take any more until wind had come up. And in my case, babies prem and tiny, so couldnt let go short on a feed each and every time. btw scbu nurses had trouble too. And if you jiggled baby too hard, baby spewed everywhere anyway, so had to start again.

ZingWantsCake Fri 04-Oct-13 16:20:49

sunflower gently massage baby's tummy in a reverse C direction - start from just below right ribcage and do clocwise a circular motion.

...↓


like that

this follows the shape of the lower intestine and the direction is the same as the movement of bowel contents and gas.

start gently and as you learn and feel what you are doing you can add slightly more pressure.
I used to feel "bubbling" under my fingers which was usually followed by poo/gas and pain gone.

you can try lying baby on its back and gently push bent legs towards tummy as if you were trying to push knees towards their chest, but not that far - babies do this anyway.
or try a cycling/pedalling motion.

all of these massages/pressure applying should be done gently and you might need a good 5 minutes to get a result.

jellyfl00d Fri 04-Oct-13 16:22:09

In my experience the majority of new baby's need winding and a lot of the techniques already described usually do the trick. I usual use sitting them on my knee and supporting the head with a hand whilst rubbing the back quite effective.
However older babies don't seem to need all if this and often sitting up or a change in position often brings up wind without any other intervention.

PipkinsPal Fri 04-Oct-13 16:24:08

I was going to say drink dandelion and burdock it makes the most satisfying bloke burps and then I realised it was under a baby category blush

HeroineChick Fri 04-Oct-13 16:24:58

I've had three babies

None ever needed burping

They were all bf in case that is of any relevance but I doubt it

HeroineChick Fri 04-Oct-13 16:25:35

LMAO Pipkins :D

jellyfl00d Fri 04-Oct-13 16:31:21

That's where everyone is going wrong then, we should be feeding our babies dandelion & burdock! burps a plenty smile

rumtumtugger Fri 04-Oct-13 17:52:34

Just checked in and found this is a discussion of the day! Hadn't realised it would cause such controversy...

I have heard another great technique, which is to hold your baby sitting up and facing away from you (supporting the head), then blow warm air on their lower back - I guess this gently warms the air causing the bubble to rise up?

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 17:59:58

Sorry, me again with my eyebrows raised smile smile

rumtum you have made me chuckle....how would warm breath reach the air in the stomach and warm it sufficiently for it to rise?

If breathing on or near someone had such a powerful effect on people's internal organse, we'd all be a danger to each other.

shock

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 18:00:35

organse = organs smile

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 18:16:26

Can I ask what your science backgroud is tiktok, if I may?

catellington Fri 04-Oct-13 18:49:49

Tiktok is a very well respected bf expert.

My baby's burps and farts just leap out unstoppably on their own!

My favourite is when the DM / even more so DGM burping rigmarole is accompanied by 'oh poor you, you 've been fed too much' because we didn't feed on a 4 hr schedule from birth

OP maybe there aren't any more air pockets left if so much effort required? Or if they are then maybe they are making their way to come out the other end smile

cafecito Fri 04-Oct-13 19:53:32

I found most effective was to feed, then lift baby up under arms/upper torso gently so baby can stretch/ almost stand up - then sit them back down again - burps aplenty

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 19:56:35

"Tiktok is a very well repsected bf expert"

In rl?

rumtumtugger Fri 04-Oct-13 20:26:35

Tiktok, perhaps I didn't explain myself well - I'm not suggesting breathing 'at' a baby or in its general direction in order to elicit a burp. That would be daft wink. But I have tried putting my open mouth on my baby's lower back and slowly breathing onto her, to mimic the effect of a hot water bottle. The trapped wind is dislodged in her in much the same way as trapped wind in me when I apply a hot water bottle to my sore tummy.

rumtumtugger Fri 04-Oct-13 20:28:47

As an aside, I have found some of Tiktok's advice on these boards invaluable in helping me to continue bf-ing my first dd beyond a year, despite a very tough start. So thank you!

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 20:34:42

I'm a midwife. I've been on MN for about 10 years. I've seen TikTok on here loads over the years. She always gives very good, sensible, evidence based advice. Her knowledge on breastfeeding matters is much better than most midwives and health visitors.

I'm not sticking up for her as a "friend", etc. I'm not sure I've ever spoken to TikTok on MN as I don't post on the bf boards (saw this in active convos and I'm bored). So have no ulterior motive, but I did want to say that IMO she's a good egg. grin

cogitosum Fri 04-Oct-13 20:41:38

Just blew on ds's lower back as described and he did an enormous farr! Could be coincidence but still pretty cool!

Tiktok has given me some great advice and I've come across historic posts where she's given others advice which has really helped me.

cogitosum Fri 04-Oct-13 20:47:08

You realise your life's changed when getting a fart in the face really delights you!

Two methods... First lifting her up by the armpits to straighten her out - especially useful if recently fed to sleep, and doesn't often wake her.

Second - put your hand on her tummy until you feel the bubbles moving about. Cup the whole tummy in your hand and give it a little gentle wiggle left-right-left. BURP! Marvellous, and very satisfying...

LostMarbles99 Fri 04-Oct-13 20:54:34

My baby gets very distressed if he's not winded,

My top tip is to walk up and down the stairs several times holding the baby to get rod of wind!

rumtumtugger Fri 04-Oct-13 21:04:34

Cogitosum grin

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 21:40:37

But she is not medical, her words. So she has picked things up from the internet? Or works for a breastfeeding organisation?

aig Fri 04-Oct-13 21:50:15

I never 'burped' either of my babies. Which I know is a study where n=2 but is true. I was a paediatrician and never understood why this was something people seemed to need to do. Just saying...

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 21:54:53

I don't really think being medical automatically bestows you with breastfeeding knowledge.

In my midwife training we had a two hour session in uni on breastfeeding. Hearing some of the Drs in the hospital I would suspect med school allocate even less time.

frazzledbutcalm Fri 04-Oct-13 21:57:40

Sit baby in the usual burp position. Instead of rubbing her back, gently sway her from side to side then forward and back. Very gently. Worked every time for me for those stubborn last burps.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 21:58:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

aig Fri 04-Oct-13 22:00:15

No - I have been registered for several years but rarely post. I think my most recent post would be in education about Hampshire or Chichester schools.

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 22:02:48

favouriteThings Aigs been registered and posting since 2007 under that name as a 5 second check will tell you.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:05:39

If someone was bestowing me with breastfeeding knowledge, I personally would be far happier knowing that they had some sort of regulated medical training . Not demand evidence when they have been nowhere near anything medical in their lives. Not maybe just picked it up from the internet. <shudders>

aig Fri 04-Oct-13 22:07:03

Look at the thread 'Schools in the Chichester Area post 15th August 2008' if you are in doubt. I tend to stick to education and religion boards smile

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:07:51

I went back about 5 weeks and saw nothing. So apologies if there are indeed some posts. How do you know when she was registered? How do you see that in a search?

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:10:27

ooh, I have been deleted. Didnt know I couldnt say what I said. Strange. Oh well. Apologies to MNHQ.

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 22:11:39

Fair enough. Personally I wouldn't care as long as what they were saying is right. Like I say I've seen enough Drs spouting bollocks over breastfeeding. I have a feeling TikTok used to be a peer support type person but I couldn't swear on it.

She introduced me to the KellyMom website which is awesome.

As for looking up posters...if you go to advanced search on the top right side, there is then a bit where you can search for messages my poster name. So I did that and put "aig" in that box and it brought all her posts up.

bonzo77 Fri 04-Oct-13 22:12:46

FT this is the internet. Anyone can purport to be anything. Not sure how you'd check tiktok's credentials without her outing herself.

DS1 never really burped despite my efforts. DS2 does massive ones, helped by having a change of position and gentle pressure on his tummy. Ie being put into his cot!

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 22:16:21

Very true. I could be lying that I'm a midwife. smile

You do have to be careful believing blindly what someone says no matter what qualifications they say they have.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:18:53

bonzo. I know that. That is what is bothering me.

Viva. but where does it bring up when someone registered? I must search in a different way to you. I have never seen a registered date.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:20:02

True as well Viva. Trust is paramount.

Bert2e Fri 04-Oct-13 22:21:53

bf counsellors are trained by 4 recognised organisations in the UK. They undergo extensive training, midwives receive 2-4 hours of training in bf and as far as I know drs / peads receive none. All bfc require evidence to back up statements that they make about bf. This separates urban myth from information. This is why Tiktok is asking for evidence to back up statements that have been made re winding - exactly like a research scientist would be required to do to back up any research!

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 22:22:41

Ah, no I suppose it doesn't actually bring up the reg date. I just scrolled to the bottom of the page so where the oldest posts were and it said 2007. I presumed Aig registered when she started posting but guess it could be different.

There is a way to do it but I can't remember. Someone told me once and I remember a list with membership numbers and dates. Don't think I dreamt it, hmm

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 22:23:22

I meant confused not hmm

aig Fri 04-Oct-13 22:27:34

Paediatrician get little training on BF but those of us who breastfed our babies tend to get quite interested in the subject.

bonzo77 Fri 04-Oct-13 22:27:34

FT believe or disbelieve what you chose. Others will do the same. You can't police the web. MNHQ are pretty good as sussing out the ones who need sussing.

Oh, and you don't need qualifications to give great advice. And qualifications don't automatically mean you give this advice.

And scientists will tell you that there are different weightings of evidence. With the double blind randomised controlled trial at one end and anecdote/ expert opinion form the other. It's all has its place.

frazzledbutcalm Fri 04-Oct-13 22:29:25

I'm not really understanding why FT has such a problem with tiktok .... confused

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:31:18

So TikTok is a registered bf counsellor? So why wouldnt she have said that if she is? Assuming that she is. She may not be?

"All bfc require evidence to back up statements that they make about bf". What does that mean.
And she isnt a research scientist. I am well aware what one of those is, and she isnt one of those.

Yes Aig could have registered at any time. we cant see from advaced search as far as I am aware.

frazzledbutcalm Fri 04-Oct-13 22:33:16

FT .. do you know tiktok personally, in rl?

Bert2e Fri 04-Oct-13 22:34:11

Bfc impart evidence based information rather than legend!

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:37:05

tiktok is not medical, said something about science. She got very concerned about a poster saying the word most, when indeed the poster may well have been right. And then asked for evidence, when she has not been near a hospital as far as I know, except to give birth 3 times.
Why is she concerned about evidence when she herself is neither a doctor, nurse etc etc. Not even been involved in childcare it seems. As bonzo rightly pointed out, "anyone can purport to be anything".

frazzledbutcalm Fri 04-Oct-13 22:38:17

So FT ... do you know tiktok in rl?

my best burping technique is to give him lots of cider and let nature take its course wink

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:39:32

No I have never "met" tiktok before today.

Bert2e. but how can they even know whether the answer upthread was most or some. I think I will have an internet look at bfc.

frazzledbutcalm Fri 04-Oct-13 22:41:55

So how do you know that she has no medical background and has never been near a hospital?? You're talking like you know her! You have some kind of weird chip on your shoulder about her that just does not make sense! You're coming across as really bizarre ...

Bert2e Fri 04-Oct-13 22:42:04

Tiktok may not have known, she may have a theory, which is why she asked for supporting evidence.

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 22:46:35

Anyone can be concerned about evidence, not just medical types. Surely its a sign of an intelligent, thoughtful person if they ask for supporting evidence rather than just believing a statement someone has made on the Internet?

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:48:36

She muttered something about science, that is all.

If she is a bfc, having had a brief look, then she will have had some training as far as I can see. But she didnt say she is a bfc. So probably she isnt. So it is all rather vague.
But saying to a probably ordinary poster "Oh dear.........where is the evidence for this" is like saying to someone at a bus stop, "Oh dear.............where is the evidence that a bus is on its way?"

frazzledbutcalm Fri 04-Oct-13 22:50:45

It seems like you're badgering her ... wanting to oust her as the monster you've created her to be! I don't understand how you can post with such strong conviction that she has no medical or hospital knowledge .. when you don't even know her! You sound really crazy.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:52:20

Viva. That works both ways. She wants evidence. Just how many babies does she need internationally for "evidence". Thousands, millions. There must be millions. Is that enough evidence? hmm

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 22:54:47

I think posting a MH retort breaks MN rules.

frazzledbutcalm Fri 04-Oct-13 22:56:04

What's MH?

AnythingNotEverything Fri 04-Oct-13 22:57:00

FT - I think tiktok has a point.

How do we know that there are stubborn pockets of air? This kind of questioning is really valuable.

Plenty of babies do not haven't trouble bringing up their own wind, and I've often been told that bf babies with a good latch don't take in a lot of air when feeding.

I think tiktok may have been healthily challenging the assumption. Lots of new parents spend ages trying to wind babies who would happily go to sleep without any fuss.

I don't think tiktok was trying to diminish anyone else's experience, just asking how we knew that these stubborn pockets of air exist.

I don't know tiktok personally, but in 6 months of reading the feeding boards, I respect her opinion and approach highly.

Sockywockydoodah Fri 04-Oct-13 22:57:43

What on earth?

Tiktok has been here for years and gives excellent, impartial breastfeeding advice (have previously been a beneficiary of it myself). Actually I think she has said previously that she is a bf'ing counsellor.

I totally agree that burping babies is a cultural practice. Never done it myself (two babies, co sleep and not interested in waking up at night unless completely unavoidable).

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 22:58:33

I think a gold standard RCT would probably be fine.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:07:42

What is RCT?

MH is mental health

Anything. "Plenty of babies do not have trouble bringing up their own wind".

Plenty of babies do have trouble bringing up their own wind. As evidence by real life and this thread and 300,000 to 600,000 babies born each year. There can be plenty of babies in both camps.

Number of babies born around the world each year. Approx 1,000,000,000 born each year? May have got a 0 or two extra or not enough 0's there! Plenty of babies that do need winding!

Sockywockydoodah Fri 04-Oct-13 23:10:34

Uh, or plenty of parents believe their babies need winding? I'm sure some do, mind.

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 23:13:08

<sigh>

A randomised controlled trial.

It doesn't matter how many thousands or hundreds of thousands of babies have parents who say their babies needed burping this will not count as evidence. Ditto if you have hundreds of thousands of parents saying their kids didnt need burping.

The plural of anecdotal isn't data.

rumtumtugger Fri 04-Oct-13 23:14:35

Some babies do need to be actively burped and some don't. I don't understand why some posters are hmm about that. All babies are different.

Also - who would fund a double-blind, peer reviewed study on burping?! Just cos something hasn't been written up in a scientific journal doesn't mean it doesn't have a grain of truth to it.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:16:15

But many of us experience that babies need winding. But rl doesnt count it appears. Only science. And I speak as being related to a scientist.Actually, more than 1.

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 23:16:56

FT, you're right to be wary of people on the internet smile

As it happens, though, I have been here for years, and MN certainly know who I am. I am a breastfeeding counsellor with NCT and I have higher (non-medical) science-related and breastfeeding education related qualifications (I don't want to go into detail as I prefer not to out myself, even to close colleagues).

NCT has no views on burping - this is my own personal lack of certainty on display here. You can trust I know what I am talking about when I say I think there is room for doubt about most babies being in pain if they are not winded, and you can also trust I know sufficient about anatomy and physiology to make me doubtful that blowing on a baby's skin will make air in the stomach rise.

I've tried to be fairly light-hearted and show my scepticism mildly, and to challenge people (a bit) to think, so they may be less likely to be dogmatic about these things. I think it's fascinating that people have different experiences of babies' behaviours and responses, and I've already explained that active 'winding' won't do any harm (unless it's roughly done, of course) so of course people can please themselves.

But I don't know of any evidence that it is necessary, for most babies.

This has got some people really annoyed, for some reason.

Hope that explains things a bit better smile

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:17:54

Quite rum. And glad you started this thread, for all those real life parents. I for 1 am grateful.

HollaAtMeBaby Fri 04-Oct-13 23:19:12

FavoriteThings your posts are very odd. Are you saying that nobody can ever believe anything based on evidence? Or that there is no such thing as evidence? confused

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 23:23:24

I'm also glad the thread was started. It's been interesting, am also a real life parent. With a baby I burped. Whether she actually needed burping or not I don't know. But if I patted her enough she'd tend to do it and I thought at the time that's what I needed to do, that all bakes needed winding.

She never actually showed signs of distress after most of her feeds. The times she did seem to have tummy ache burping didnt help.

As a midwife Id always say if you think it might help or it seems to help then fine. But that there may not always be air that needs to be brought up.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:24:44

tiktok, why didnt you say some of that in the first place. I know you can write what you like, but just saying something about science is vague in the extreme.

Glad you have got qualifications at least.

So most of what you post is just to get people to "think"? All your doubts are not actually based on anything?

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 23:24:54

As you are related to a scientist (wow!) FT, you won't mind re-reading my posts and seeing that in fact, I am not discounting real life at all. There are some babies who are troubled by digestive effects and some of these are happier when they produce a burp. That is real life. I believe in it smile

But none of that experience indicates that for most babies, active burping/winding is necessary to avoid pain.

We pat, jiggle and do all sorts to our babies and i suggest a lot of the time it makes no difference, because they will burp anyway.

It would be difficult to do a big RCT, for sure....but a small one, comparing two lots of mothers and babies over a couple of days, on a maternity ward would be possible.

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 23:26:59

FT, I'm against people being dogmatic, and stating things that are based solely on their experience and extrapolating out from that into a generality. I'm against people worrying for no reason.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:27:10

Scientific evidence can be dodgy. Science changes its mind from one week to the next. If you ask any scientist, they happily tell you this.

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 23:27:56

PS, also 'my doubts' are based on what I know of feeding, of babies' behaviours, and on anatomy and the digestive process.

tiktok Fri 04-Oct-13 23:29:38

No, scientists won't say this.
Science progresses, building on what has been done before. Sometimes things do get overturned or clarified.

But to say 'science changes its mind from one week to the next' makes you sound ignorant and trivialises good science.
Ask your relative(s).

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:30:33

tiktok. I just think you are not really taking into account enough the millions and millions of real life mothers with real life babies who do need to wind them.
I think we may finally have come to some sort of agreement.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:33:40

"Science changes its mind from one week to the next". This week, next week, the one after... there will be examples in the newspaper and on the internet, and talking to scientists, where it has done just that.

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 23:40:58

But all those millions of mums and millions of babies who think their babies need winding - how many actually need winding and how many just think they need winding? That's the interesting question to which no one has the answer.

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 04-Oct-13 23:42:02

And science doesn't change its mind. Saying it does is a foolish statement on two levels.

FavoriteThings Fri 04-Oct-13 23:55:34

Viva. Millions and millions have mums have the answer. But no,try and find a science paper. Oh well.

And oh well to your second post too.

No wonder bf and bottle feeding has the reputation it does. I now understand.

Over and out from me. Probably. At least on this thread. Oh my word.

I am pretty sure several of you will still be on here in several years time.

I am reminded of something that happened. Someone wanted to know what the weather was like. Someone suggested putting on the weather forecast. Seems sensible? Yes? Someone else suggested going outside and taking a look. Sums up this thread beautifully.

MrTumblesKnickers Fri 04-Oct-13 23:58:18

And I speak as being related to a scientist.Actually, more than 1.

I'm sorry but this made me grin

I'm related to a nuclear physicist, can't wait for the next thread on that subject so I can weigh in!

Sparklyboots Sat 05-Oct-13 00:01:26

<ahem> Burped my first as was under instruction to do so. My second I didn't because I was too busy protecting her from my enraged toddler. She seems fine.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 00:01:40

I think you're taking this a bit seriously FT.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 00:01:51

It did make me grin a bit when I read it back too!

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 00:04:36

I do take it seriously when non doctors and nurses speak about medical issues and dont say how they have been trained or indeed if they have been trained. That is a very serious matter indeed. People die and can die because of that. Life and death and all that.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 00:05:55

You and her and others just saying she has been on MN for 10 years doesnt begin to cut it.

Sparklyboots Sat 05-Oct-13 00:06:19

And oh, yes, sorry OP, my babies seemed to burp easily when feed lying on my tummy with me on my back, which I did because I have astonishing, baby-squirtying boobs a fast let down.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 00:08:32

I never realised that burping techniques was a matter of life or death. Sorry, obv something we didnt cover in our in depth two hour session on breast feeding.

Which btw, I've learnt more from TikTok on breastfeeding than I ever did in my training. Been the accountable practitioner I am I didn't just blindly believe some randomer on the Internet. I read what she had to say and then did my own research on the Internet, looking at La Leche stuff, breastfeeding textbooks, etc. I've never seen her give duff advice.

Sparklyboots Sat 05-Oct-13 00:09:24

Life and death. On a make-my-baby-burp-or-fart thread? This is getting quite funny now.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 00:09:57

No, being on here for ten years on its own doesn't cut it. But knowing that I've read her stuff for years and years and its always been spot on means I do tend to put some faith in what she's saying.

Sockywockydoodah Sat 05-Oct-13 00:11:15

Burping - life and death stuff. Who knew?

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 00:17:53

Fair enough your last post Viva if you think she is spot on. But many of us on here, dont think she is remotely near spot on. Much more spot off.
But at least this thread now exists.

weewhile Sat 05-Oct-13 00:54:33

I think most NCT practitioners are facilitators, not counsellors.
Perhaps Tiktok was just trying to make a point. I think that's allowed, isn't it?
FavouriteThings I get your point too, but you were a bit like a dog with a bone!
Before anyone wades in...no, I'm not calling anyone a canine!
Peacesmile

Sunflower1985 Sat 05-Oct-13 02:07:18

One question I've been wondering.
Baby farts. Is it swallowed air (in which case better latch for less swallowing would make a difference) or is it generated in the gut like I seem to recall is something that happens (in which case is there a way of reducing it - do ff babies suffer differently to bf babies beyond the difference caused by latch???)

Want2bSupermum Sat 05-Oct-13 02:52:06

With regards to bf vs ff I consider my sister and I to be a rather interesting example. I ff and she bf and our babies are 7 weeks apart. Her boy is just as big as mine. He burps and farts just as much as my boy. The only difference is that mine threw up more.

For burping, I follow what I was shown by my friends mother who had five kids. Firm circular rub on the back followed by firm taps up the back. sit baby on knee and twist at the waist after the first turn. After that just firm rubs and taps.

I am very jealous of babies that don't need burping. I went through three huge bottles of gripe water with DS. My friends mum didn't believe me but after burping him for half an hour she gave him the gripe water and up came the burp.... followed by a good ounce of vom!

zzzzz Sat 05-Oct-13 05:34:01

Isn't burping a baby just putting it in a position (eg on your shoulder so it's upright and it's tummy is compressed a little, perhaps rubbing its back) so it's more likely to burp and not posset?

I think most of my babies were more comfortably if they'd burped before I put them down, settled better, and were less likely to wake up vomiting shortly after sleeping.

I think it's unlikely that so many cultures would burp babies if it was unhelpful. Mothers tend to jettison pointless jobs.

I'd be interested to hear which parts of the world DON'T though. I was totally freaked out to discover in rural France they put sugar in babies milk, though slightly better than a friend from Africa who offers her baby sweet black tea in his bottle!? shock

rumtumtugger Sat 05-Oct-13 07:27:35

In Guatemala they put coffee in baby's bottles! shock

To reply to an earlier comment, no, science doesn't change it's 'mind', but different studies may have results that appear to contradict one another. The way that science is then reported in the media may flip-flop, but the science itself (testing a hypothesis by collecting data under controlled conditions) has not changed.

As an anecdote, I have just 'had' to burp dd2 3 times within a 10 minute feed to allow her to expel an air bubble and continue feeding. Each time, she came off the same breast - presumably because she had taken in enough air to fill her tummy without actually being full of milk (we are still working on latch after her posterior tongue tie and upper lip tie was revised last week). It is conceivable that she didn't need me to do this but in my experience, laying her down to sleep without burping results in her waking early due to hunger, and also vomiting more often than if I'd kept her upright for a few minutes and gotten a burp out of her first. (Incidentally, are there RCT supporting the practice of keeping baby upright for 20 minutes after a feed? No? But the NCT still advise it, and I gratefully accept this anecdotal advice, much as I am doing here re burping. I don't feel it is diminished just because there are no double-blind, peer reviewed studies to support it).

If I didn't burp my dd regularly to rid her of those 'filling' pockets of air that she's ingested, the process of feeding her would take much much longer, leading to less (quality) sleep for her and for me. Sometimes, all I needed to do to actively burp her was to pick her up and put her on my shoulder. Sometimes, I needed to use an additional method - and have tried out some of these fab suggestions here, thank you so much for all your input! thanks My lonely night feeds have been enlivened by trying out these new techniques!

Claiming that babies don't need burping (because YOUR baby doesn't) is at best, naive, and at worst, actively unhelpful to those of us who experience otherwise.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 07:28:40

weewhile. I needed to be like that to get anything out of them! Ihad asked toktiok at least twice about her background but the only word she muttered was science. Which is so broad as to be of no use as an answer on this thread. Several of them, about 6 appear to have been on here many years, and only Viva offered up anything to do with tiktoks credentials. Perhaps she was the only one who knew, and the rest were have been taking a poster giving them advice all these years, at face value?
The medical profession is far too important to take someone at face value. I dont think even Viva has even met her.
[dicalaimer, obviously on an internet forum, hardly anyone knows anyone else, so beware generally].

And no , just trying to make a point, when there are fraught parents up and down the country is not good.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 07:32:48

Quite zzzzz and rum. Burping is cultural! Ridiculous. I do hope, but it would be naive to think, that tiktok hasnt been given out 10 years of wrong advice. But it very much appears that she has.

She herself says she has or does work for NCT. Who dont have a policy on this matter. So these musings on here have been her own [imo, very wrong] advice.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 07:45:40

rum. But nowadays as well, if wrong information goes into a compute, wrong results come out of it.
And there are so many variables, that if one of the readings, or one of the hypotesis, or one piece of work that someone else has done or or or, it can and does make the results wrong. Science is choc a bloc of wrong stuff.[also does have some right stuff in it]. But on some stuff like this, see my weather scenario above.
What actually happens to people isnt anecdotal. Tiktok, Viva and other cannot write of thousands of years of parents with a billion children getting it wrong!

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 07:49:24

It is anecdotal. It doesn't mean its wrong and I'm not saying it is. But I do think that TikTok made and interesting point and I think she's quite likely right that some babies who are routinely burped don't need burping. I also think its likely there are plenty of babies for who it's beneficial.

minipie Sat 05-Oct-13 08:07:20

Actually I can well believe that in some cultures they don't burp babies - because in some cultures, babies are carried upright in a sling virtually all the time, so they would get "burped" that away and wouldn't need specific burping.

I'm not quite sure why tiktok is being attacked - all she is doing is challenging the statement that all babies will be in pain if not burped. It may well be that there are some babies who don't need burping, and such a statement could make the mothers of those babies feel bad when they don't need to.

marzipananimal Sat 05-Oct-13 08:07:47

How can you say tiktok was giving wrong advice when she wasn't giving advice at all? She was merely questioning the assumption that most babies have problems with wind and need actively winding. This is helpful IMO as when I had DS I thought winding was an essential, important and potentially difficult part of babycare. In fact he had no trouble at all and dd has been the same, though I know all babies are different.

You will find lots of people keen to defend tiktok as she has helped so many of us with great advice on this board, and she always gives evidence based advice, not hearsay. So stop with the frankly bizarre atracks on her postd

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 08:15:06

Viva, but research isnt necessarily true either. So asking a poster for "evidence" when they have evidenced it is , and I dont really know what word to use actually.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 08:16:23

Which is more reliable. Being outside and experiencing the weather, or looking at a weather report?

minipie Sat 05-Oct-13 08:24:40

She didn't ask you for evidence. She said there was no evidence that all babies would be in pay if not winded. That is a correct statement. She wasn't saying that no baby needs winding, just that not all babies do.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 08:25:28

We're not talking about the weather though are we? Bizarre and meaningless comparison.

Someone said most babies need burping or they were sick/had tummy ache. TikTok light heartedly asked if there was evidence to support this statement.

You seem to have come on this thread with a bee in your bonnet from the start, saying the board doesn't have a good reputation on MN, etc. which btw is the first timeline heard that.

minipie Sat 05-Oct-13 08:29:48

Actually the weather comparison kind of holds up. Going outside will only tell you what the weather is in your own back garden (ie your own baby). A weather report is looking at the whole area (ie all babies). just because it's raining in your back garden (ie your baby needs burping) doesn't mean that it's raining a mile away (ie other babies may not need burping). a weather report would show whether it's raining everywhere or not.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 08:34:46

Very true, hadn't thought of it like that. grin

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 08:37:49

Everythig is here for everyone to read themselves. Everyone can read.

minipie. That is why I asked TikTok her background. And why I specifically asked her about childcare. I wanted to know how many babies she had experience of. Because after a while on here, it looked like to be just her own 3 children.

Why she was so evasive, I have no idea. And if she has been on here 10 years, surely she has already told her baby background. Perhaps not?

minipie Sat 05-Oct-13 08:43:02

Not sure why it's relevant Favorite?

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 08:48:31

I know people cant . That is part of what is so bothering me.A large part.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 08:55:36

Why does it matter how many babies she has? If a Dr or midwife was giving you breastfeeding advice would you not believe their advice if they hadn't had children of their own?

SarahBumBarer Sat 05-Oct-13 08:56:13

Goodness me FT - do you have something against Tiktok (who by the way I have never MET before on MN)? And by the way after criticising her for asking (perfectly reasonably) what evidence there is all you have done is ask for evidence from her to support her comments etc.

My children never needed burping. I'm sure is a lot of luck involved with that but also do think that in part it was 1) bf and 2) they did what they needed because I never fussed over them that way. Of course I think it is common sense not to lie them down on their backs immediately after feeding but a constant round of patting, squeezing and poking - I seriously doubt that MOST babies need it to the extent that they get it.

DD1 - I burped her for ages after feeding, never burped, always content.
DD2 - she burped loads, but by herself just by being sat up.

Babies are all different.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 09:01:25

The teaching these days is that breast fed babies probably won't need burping. I don't know the reference but it must be evidence based or they wouldn't be teaching the students that in uni.

It does make sense. If a baby has a good latch they shouldn't be sucking in air. There's no air that comes out a breast.

SockywockyWOOOOOdah Sat 05-Oct-13 09:16:49

Tiktok hasn't given any advice on burping.

As Viva said above, tiktok is very careful only to give only properly evidenced advice, and to be very clear when she is speculating, or musing etc etc (as on this thread).

As said above, you will find many here keen to defend her reputation because she has helped us personally - she is extraordinarily generous with her time and expertise. I, for example, was struggling horribly with my first DC and about to stop bf'ing. Instead (three years later), I am happily tandem-feeding two. I'm forever indebted to her.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 09:20:51

Viva. "If a baby has a good latch they shouldn't be sucking in air". That was told to me 20 years ago, so nothing appears to have changed.

Psammead. Quite. All babies are different.

Evidence. People all around us
. Dont need a science paper to tell us what we already know and can see.

Viva. Quite. That is all Tiktok gave, that she has 3 babies. Hardly a reason to trust her.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 09:21:59

Oh my goodness.....*FT*, you have a real bee in your bonnet about me!

Here's my rejoinders (and I am sorry it's long but I feel somewhat in need of self-defence!)

* I have not given advice on burping or winding on this thread at all. I have not even suggested what anyone might try. That is my MAIN point - no advice whatsoever

* I have not said that 'babies never need burping' or made any dogmatic statements about it

* I have challenged (by asking for the evidence) that most babies would be in pain without active burping

* I also challenged the idea that blowing on a baby's back would heat the wind so it would rise out of the baby's stomach. But I mean....come on!! Think about it smile

* I have said - and I stick by it - that emphasising winding as something all babies need is cultural. I did not say it was only cultural in the UK - there are other plenty of places. I contrast cultural with biologically essential. Just because millions of mothers all round the world burp their babies does not mean it is not cultural. Prams, cots, vests and nappies are cultural, too.

* I have acknowledged whenever appropriate that individual people may have individual experiences with their individual babies, and yes, some babies really do seem to have discomfort/pain linked with digestion and burping seems to relieve this

* Some mothers - because, I suggest, of this cultural emphasis on winding - worry unnecessarily about winding (you get posts on here asking how you can tell if all the wind is up; or if babies should be waked to be winded; or if the normal grunts and wriggles of a newborn's peaceful sleep are wind and if so is it pain; or concerns about responding to a baby's feeding cues because it's assumed the baby's cries mean wind.....and so on)

* The emphasis on winding can sometimes mean the baby's real needs are not responded to - there's a post talking about In-Laws practically wrenching a baby from the mum's arms because they think the happy, peaceful, sleeping baby must be winded

* all this makes me question the emphasis on winding, and challenge the idea that it is essential or the baby will be in pain

* I was not evasive about my credentials or qualifications - you asked if I was medical or had had babies, and I answered! Later you asked for more details and I gave them

(Individual NCT practitiioners may say babies should be upright 20 mins after feeding, though I have never heard any of us saying that, and there is certainly no 'NCT says.....' about it. I find it hard to believe we would say that for every baby, and suggest there is some misunderstanding here).

Hope that explains things!

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 09:22:46

Yes, the people all around us are telling us thatTikTok has given good, helpful advice over the years. That's what we know and see.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 09:25:05

Viva, all babies (and humans) take in air when feeding, whatever the latch - though an effective latch would certainly reduce the amount of air going in, and babies with tongue tie and other difficulties often seem more troubled with it.

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 09:28:23

Thanks TikTok, I know some babies inc b/f ones are more prone to wind and will need burping so I always say to new parents its worth trying but not to get hung up on doing it if baby isn't burping and is settled.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 09:28:49

Thanks for the nice things people have said about me smile

FavouriteThings seems to think I am 'giving advice' - absolutely not. Or that the information in my posts here is harmful (untrue). Or that I ignore what I see (incorrect).

What I don't do, is think that everything I see or experience directly or indirectly, or every thought I have, is generalisable, out to the whole flippin human species smile

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 09:29:58

Viva , to me what you say sounds wholly sensible smile

HollaAtMeBaby Sat 05-Oct-13 09:35:41

I'm related to a model. I can't think why Vogue haven't called yet.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 09:43:39

LOL @ Holla .... actually, FT acknowledged her 'I am related to scientists' thing was a bit daft smile

I'd like another bit of evidence, now, FT, in response to your assertion that mothers have been winding their babies for 1000s of years.

Really? How do you know???!

zzzzz Sat 05-Oct-13 09:44:44

So where don't they help babies burp?

Are there countries where they've never heard of it?

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 05-Oct-13 09:49:50

I've worked in a maternity hospital in Uganda and never once saw a baby been winded over there. I'm not saying they didnt do it but I never saw it happen. The babies over there are kept upright more rather than been laid down so I wonder if that means they don't need winding???

AnythingNotEverything Sat 05-Oct-13 10:02:51

I think tiktok has behaved admirably on this thread.

It's so refreshing to see a rational response in this situation.

FWIW, I completely agree - lots of new parents get hung up on lots of things which are historic practice, cultural, or unnecessary. It's important that we make informed decisions about what we do with our children and those in our care.

badguider Sat 05-Oct-13 10:24:15

I don't know why anyone would try to wind a settled baby but for those of us whose babies (even bf) won't settle after a feed till a burp comes up it is a bit of a touchy subject as waiting for that burp and, yes, trying to speed up its arrival becomes an obsession.
Maybe supermums are happy to sit awake all night with their lo upright to let nature take its course but some of us need some sleep.

Some posters on this thread (not ticktock) have definitely taken the tone that those "obsessed" with burping are hung up on it for no good reason and are just naive or ill informed to be basing our actions on our own baby rather than their experience.
This thread is a mix of personal experience and crazy sweeping generalisations. It's not surprising those speaking from personal experience may feel attacked.

FavoriteThings Sat 05-Oct-13 10:26:05

tiktok, of course there is advice in your posts.

Winding is essential for babies the world over. Maybe there are some who jiggle and dont need jiggling. But trying to get a word from most to some, when you cant possibly be sure, and then want evidence is , and again I dont know which word to use.

When I asked questions about your credentials your reply was "I'm not medical but I do have a science background [I dont work as a scientist]". You could just have studied sciences at school for all that statement was worth.

zzzzz Sat 05-Oct-13 10:35:29

I think I would consider holding a baby upright WAS burp inducing, so perhaps I see burping where others don't. confused

rumtumtugger Sat 05-Oct-13 10:41:50

Ok. Enough thread derailing now. I started this thread to ask for people's winding techniques so I could try new ones out, not to debate the evidence base behind the theory of winding per se. I would still like to find out about new winding techniques if there are any that haven't been suggested. If I just came to this thread now I would be terrified of posting for fear of being called out on my 'lack of evidence', so please, all of you that are continuing to debate - enough now. STOP.

Now, does anyone have any other tried and tested techniques for winding?

Thank you.

cogitosum Sat 05-Oct-13 10:56:47

Rumtum I never wind ds if he's going in the sling and he'll often do a big burp when I put him in the sling and if he doesn't he settles nicely in it do during the day that's my main recommendation if it's convenient for you to use a sling

Oh and IME ds (can't speak for other babies) does need winding if he's not going in the sling

catellington Sat 05-Oct-13 11:14:59

FT i learnt a lot from tiktok's posts in the past . I didn't take it on face value and was aware of her credentials from previous posts. Just took a quick search on mn to find those out, but I suppose you asking her again here at least adds this thread to the list. I followed up a lot of what she said elsewhere and find it all so fascinating. My 'page turners' are nowadays all books about bf, blush smile

The breastfeeding and bottle feeding board is an amazing source of support and information but inevitably there will be some disagreement because it's controversial and emotive subject matter. Tiktok does in fact to get challenged a fair amount but deals with it gracefully and continues to offer her advice and support on this board.

Find it funny to sound so serious on a thread about burping! grin

badguider Sat 05-Oct-13 11:18:10

I use the 'over the shoulder' followed by some sitting on my lap supporting the jaw then back over the shoulder. The burp usually comes at a change of positions.
When over my shoulder ds will only burp if he's relaxed and has his legs down straight.

Ds needs to burp at least nine times out of ten if he's going to be put down (cot, basket, paymat, carseat or bouncy chair).

Parsnipcake Sat 05-Oct-13 11:30:25

I find the best wind management technique is to unscrew the bottle collar as much as possible without it leaking before giving a feed. It makes the sucking easier and the bubbles seem less and not as troublesome.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 11:55:13

"tiktok, of course there is advice in your posts." This is a quote from you, FT.

Where is the advice I am supposed to have given?

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:03:44

FT you say, "Winding is essential for babies the world over"

If by this you mean, 'virtually all babies wherever they live need special techniques to enable them to get rid of air in their digestive tract' then you are making sweeping statements.

You cannot know this, FT, and if you do know, then share how you know it.

I can't think I am being unreasonable in asking for evidence.

There are some sweeping statements we can make, because we know sufficient about physiology and anatomy etc etc to apply it to all babies everywhere.

So, for example, 'babies the world over need to be fed in order to grow' , or 'babies the world over wake at night' or 'babies the world over are unable to regulate their own body temperature well and need help to do this'....all statements based on evidence.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:04:37

Thanks, catellington smile

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:12:29

rumtum, I sympathise with your concerns.

But the only evidence I asked for was to the poster who said all babies need winding otherwise they will be in pain.I haven't responded to anyone else's tips (apart from saying that warm breath on the baby's back will not cause the wind to rise....).People have happily shared their experiences and ideas, and that's a good thing smile

If you think people will be scared to post because of my request for evidence for this statement, presumably you would worry that people who don't wind will wonder if they should?

It's a good thread - lots of ideas that might help others. But the notion that winding is essential to avoid pain in 'most' babies is the bit you shouldn't like smile

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:14:09

Sorry, being precise, this was the statement I challenged by asking for evidence:

""most babies need burping or the trapped air wil travel down the gut and either make them a bit sick or give them painful wind."

rumtumtugger Sat 05-Oct-13 12:15:49

Tiktok, I stated early on in the thread that I appreciated some of the advice you have previously given. That still stands. However, I don't appreciate the way you continue to derail this thread. If you want to debate the merits of burping and to demand evidence-based support, then do start your own thread on this topic. There is clearly a lot of interest in debating it, I would just prefer this not to be on the thread I have started.

Now, if anyone has any other new burping ideas and anecdotes then please share! I tried the walking down the stairs technique and it produced a burp so loud that my neighbours heard it! grin

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:16:45

Thanks, too anything.

ZingWantsCake Sat 05-Oct-13 12:36:50

tiktok

"most babies need burping" is what I said.

you are right in that some don't need to be burped as they will do it themselves without adult intervention - this has been the experience of sone of the parents of this thread.

perhaps what I should have said was that most babies NEED TO BURP.
because they do.
they need it and they do it.

they swallow air when they feed or cry. and if they don't burp the trapped wind will come out the other end, causing some discomfort/pain in the process.

this is far from scaring anyone. it's what happens.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:48:11

Good that you clarified, Zing - the worry was you mentioned pain if babies are not burped (ie if someone did not burp them). It's a crucial difference.

It would have helped if you had been clearer about what you meant....hours and hours ago smile It's not as if you didn't have plenty of opportunity to clear it up.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:53:00

I think you are a bit sweeping, however, that burping (self induced or not) is inevitably part of every feed - babies sometimes nod off quite happily and peacefully without it and you must have seen this.

You are also overstating it, when you say that air remaining in the digestive tract is always a problem, and that if it doesn't come out the top end it always causes pain at the bottom end

Unless, of course, you have evidence for this smile

rumtumtugger Sat 05-Oct-13 12:54:03

Ffs. Ok, truce?! Now can we please go back to the original request and stop with the debate here? Winding techniques anyone?!

rumtumtugger Sat 05-Oct-13 12:55:03

Tiktok, please start your own thread, your continued input doesn't help me here.

tiktok Sat 05-Oct-13 12:59:10

rumtum, I understand, but my only input today has been in response to people addressing me directly.

But I will just maintain a dignified silence from now on!

ZingWantsCake Sat 05-Oct-13 13:03:16

I didn't say "always", so don't put words in my mouth tiktok.

and evidence? biology is evidence . experience is evidence.
besides I don't need to prove you anything as this is not a court case.confused

I give advice based on my experience and what I know.
I don't assume others know better or worse, I merely state what I think, so not sure where your judging and criticism and patronising is coming from.

minipie Sat 05-Oct-13 13:05:17

rumtum here's what helped with dd who was sooo hard to burp when small and did certainly feel discomfort if not burped:

- up and down the stairs as already mentioned

- lay horizontal for a minute, then back to vertical (dd would sometimes burp after a nappy change, still does!)

- sit on knee, facing sideways, and tilt gently backwards and forwards and sideways (almost as if baby is a joystick iyswim) while supporting back and chin so airway is as straight as poss

- sit on knee upright and vibrate knee

- tiger in a tree position with my hand supporting her chin

- burp frequently during feed, not just at the end (though I wouldn't break latch to do this, just wait till she takes a break)

rumtumtugger Sat 05-Oct-13 13:14:01

Thanks minipie smile I like the joystick visual!

ZingWantsCake Sat 05-Oct-13 13:47:20

rum

I sent you a PM

minipie Sat 05-Oct-13 15:02:06

oh and rum if your baby is v windy and is BF it's worth getting checked for tongue tie...

jellyfl00d Sat 05-Oct-13 15:13:40

Or reflux, silent or otherwise?

jellyfl00d Sat 05-Oct-13 15:15:22

I found the traditional

jellyfl00d Sat 05-Oct-13 15:18:14

Sorry...children posting before finished writing...
I found the traditional gripe water great with wind upper & lower

Lerato Sat 05-Oct-13 15:23:46

I read a very interesting book recently called 'Dream Babies' which was a history of child care manuals. From memory it stated that winding a baby was first mentioned about 100 years ago. I think it was at a time when babies were being put down in a cot to sleep rather than being cradled in the arms more. It was also thought to be a comfort / bonding time.
It definitely it cultural trend and not all babies need to be winded. I ama GP by the way.

libertychick Sat 05-Oct-13 16:03:39

Rumtum I used to sit DD up as straight as possible, supporting her chin with my hand and she usually burped fairly quicklyg

blimey! what a lovely thread hmm

dd1 didn't need burping and rarely produced one herself

dd2 occasionally gulps loads as she is feeding and usually swiftly sitting her up does the trick.

we don't do patting and shaking here it's boring

I don't know what else to say except that I hope tiktok isnt put off offering her support to those who need it. sadly I expect it isn't the first time for these sort of challenges.

also I am wondering if this board has experienced other controversy as suggested up thread. I thought all the rows were ff v bf - this bizarre debate might be a whole new sideline.

ringaringarosy Sat 05-Oct-13 19:15:05

i have 4 and have bf one of them for 2 yrs,the other 3 i did it between a few weeks and few months,i found when i was bf i didnt need to wind at all,but when i ff i needed to burp them.they just used to d it when i sat them up though,occasionally patted their back.

QueenoftheSarf Sat 05-Oct-13 23:27:02

For adults, going down on all fours and waving bum around/rotating hips relieves trapped wind so I'd imagine that finding a way to mimic the same movements for your baby will help them to pass it too. Trapped wind is so bloody painful - no wonder babies howl like they do with it.

ZingWantsCake Sat 05-Oct-13 23:42:18

poocatcher

no-one suggested to shake a baby!shock confused

Wheretogofor1stworldproblemsup Sun 06-Oct-13 09:06:16

Had three babies and never winded any of them. We were never taught to at any of the ante natal classes or feeding classes after they were born. No wind problems either. That was Sydney.

PeriodFeatures Sun 06-Oct-13 10:12:31

My baby gets trapped wind and possets a lot. It makes sense to me that a tiny baby with a newly operating digestive system who cant walk or indeed move her torso about might need a bit of a hand.

The notion of burping after every feed is some old fashioned advice. I dont do thaT as she is oftn asleep. she will thrash her little arms and legs about, go red and grimace if she needs a trump. sometimes this is clearly uncomfortable so i'll pick her up and rub and pat her back, which she likes, sometimes i'll put her on play mat or my knee and wiggle her legs or upper body to get things moving.

the sling is aLSO good as moving about helps lots. Trumps are hilarious and sooo loud!!

She is a really enthusiastic feeder so takes air in somtimes..

qumquat Sun 06-Oct-13 15:18:28

I don't know about babies (not had mine yet), but I certainly need burping! I have to stay upright and walk around after a meal until the burps come, and I often need to sit up during the night to release a burp. If it's not coming, I even get up and jiggle myself baby style! I learned to burp myself a few years ago and it's freed me from a lifetime of nausea after meals. Maybe I'm weird, but the need to burp babies seems obvious to me, when they spend so much time horizontal.

TerrorMeSue Sun 06-Oct-13 21:26:21

I had 4 babies. I burped the first one for a fortnight. Then I forgot. It made no bloody difference, so I stopped. He still burped (lying down, sitting up, whatever). The other three all managed to burp fine on their own too, what with it being a reflex and all.

I did notice that when they cried more they burped more afterwards, probably from gulping air when crying. All posset tend sometimes, but it never bothered them.

That tinkling gurgling sound their tummies make... That's the sound of normal human digestion grin.

occasionally ds would need assistance with burping but he usually belted one out on his own grin when he did need help, the figure of 8 method (seems to be the same as roundabout or corkscrew) usually worked the quickest but i have no evidence that he wouldn't have just burped anywaygrin made me feel proactive and useful though.

All women (except mw and bfc's) over the age of 62 would inform me that any little whimper from ds was agonising wind trapped in his belly and i should wake him and wind him immediately or it was child cruelty grin FACT.

KristinaM Sun 06-Oct-13 23:32:54

Qumqat - if I were you I woudl be checking out if I had anyfood intolerances. Nausea after every meal is not normal

tobiasfunke Mon 07-Oct-13 09:01:33

When I went to our local NCT class the bfing woman told us that bf babies don't need burping. Oh how she scoffed at the burpers. A friend who had bfeed her babies also was on the just let them fart it out school of thought. I, as an idiot first time mother, took this as gospel. Turns out I could've avoided a lot of the first couple of months screaming after feeds if I'd realised my baby needed a good burp. Sometimes he burped sometimes he didn't. There was nothing wrong with his latch, he didn't have any trouble feeding he just needed a burp.

No jiggling about worked for us. The midwife in the hospital had showed me to sit him on my knee with my hand under supporting his chin and gently rock him back and forth. I'd thought - I won't be needing any of that breastfeed babies don't need burped. Turns out she was right.

I found that there was quite a lot of these baby feeding things set in stone. If your baby is doing x, y or z IT IS WRONG. Even if it works for you IT IS STILL WRONG. Turns out that all babies are different and one size doesn't fit all - who would have thunk it?

PrincessYoni Mon 07-Oct-13 10:10:04

Betcha didn't think the thread would go the way it did eh OP?! grin

I think it can be cultural as i was remarkably satisfied when DD did a little burp. I generally sat her up and patted her back which did produce a burp and, when DH hugs me and strokes my back, i generally burp too blush not a horrid belch I hasten to add and he's not doing it to make me burp <climbs out of hole.....

However, when I was in hospital having just had DD, there was a lady in the bed opposite whose newborn was continually screaming after a feed (the lady wanted to breastfeed and was trying but couldn't speak english and the midwives were just talking at her loudly and handing her bottled formula sad) anyway at about silly o'clock in the morning, I went over and asked if I could help, laid the baby tummy down on my lap, rubbed and patted her back- a giant burp came out and the baby was calm again. Thats my evidence smile but hardly conclusive!!!

Meid Mon 07-Oct-13 10:10:08

I was told by my health visitor when I had my first baby (12 years ago) that the 'latest thinking' was to hold the baby upright after a feed and if there is a burp it will come out. No idea what today's 'latest' advice is.

However, I found this didn't work and generally gave mine a little pat on the back and didn't stress about it too much.

I did have a family friend shout (!) at me that my baby will have a cot death if I don't bring up a burp after every feed. This was the same lady who also gave me the parenting advice to prop the baby's bottle up at the side of the crib and go back to sleep to make the night time feeds easier! (Sorry went off on a tangent then.)

What always works for us is walking up or down the stairs. If ds needs a burp it will come out then!!

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