mild tongue tie/ upper lip tie but no nipple pain?

(113 Posts)
Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 02:41:50

this has been suggested and I'm asking for a referral but I've never really had any pain except a mildly cracked nipple. lo has all the associated issues though and we're looking into reflux at the mo. he certainly has a top lip tie and seems to have limited tongue motility. (according to an lll leader though only at mo through images I sent to her)

I have a top lip tie I realise and a gap in front teeth.

he's 14 weeks old and breast feeding can be distressing for both of us. he's exclusively breast fed.

trekxc Sun 17-Mar-13 02:50:06

My DS, now 5, fed for over 2 years with a tongue tie. It isn't always painful.

Having said that we did have lots of problems, but in hindsight and since having another baby it's clear that was largely due to my massive oversupply.

Worth contacting your local infant feeding adviser, usually a specially trained midwife based in hospital (mine was IBCLC and I so wish I'd known about her with my first baby! ) Good luck smile

flatmum Sun 17-Mar-13 02:55:02

My ds 2 had severe tongue tie (90%) and bf fine. My ds3 had moderate ttonge tie and was a nightmare. My advice is get it snipped ASAP and then you can rule it out as a contributing factor in any bf issues

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 19:42:15

thanks for your responses. is 14 weeks too late? well, it'll be more if it is and is snipped.

did either of you have upper lip tie?

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 19:43:49

I've also had over supply issues including strong let down which may have masked the tt/lt

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 19:47:46

wow two years trek! with a tongue tie is amazing! what problems did you have and how did you best deal with them? I strangely find that lying down in bed seems to get the best latch (he's more still too) but it's not ideal as he's v used to it now! I know more upright would be better but I think he's going to need better head control

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Sun 17-Mar-13 20:03:57

Hi clarella, I've been having the same problems as you, over supply, fast letdown and this week green poo. After reading your OP I checked LO's mouth and found that she has a full upper lip tie. I'm wondering if she's tongue tied too. Everything is suddenly falling into place. She makes a clicking sound when she drinks from the breast and loses her latch all the time.

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 20:18:00

hi toomany!!

yes bf is some days a nightmare. but I've not had a diagnosis yet and honestly don't know if lip tie an issue BUT it would explain all our probs ....

will put some links on in a bit just feeding at mo

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 20:25:30

I think we still cluster feed in eve due to day time issues.

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 20:34:23

www.tonguetie.net/

see exaggerated latch here: www.slideshare.net/bibliotecavirtualam/20060405104105

thefunnyshapedwoman.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/introducing-maxillary-labial-frenulum.html?m=1

www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2012/01/mild-tongue-tie.html?m=1

I'd contacted our local top lll leader asking about reflux (infant gavisgon has helped but caused even more wind which we really don't need) and she suggested mild tongue tie and lip tie. she said to get hv to fax our local specialist consultant for a referral stating feeding issues. I imagine you could try the same?

minipie Sun 17-Mar-13 20:47:00

DD had posterior TT and upper lip tie. apparently the two are often found together. i only had soreness when DD was going through a growth spurt, but it was brutal at those times.

we had the TT snipped at 16 weeks but the dr said the lip tie (in our case) was ok to leave. it took a couple of weeks to see improvement but now feeding is SO SO much better.

previously feeding was a bit like a wrestling match, DD slipped off all the time and had to be brought back to the breast, she got more and more upset and frantic, and took in so much air she had to be winded all the time. feeding was better when my breasts were fuller (as it was easier for her) and when she had just woken up (not sure why, maybe as she wasn't tired).

now, she still clicks a little bit (she has a high palate too which obv can't be operated on) but she stays on and is calm when feeding.

it is rare to find doctors who will operate on lip tie but I know of two in london if anyone wants names.

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 20:59:57

oh mini you describe how our bf sessions go though I must admit burping is easier now he's had a bit of gavisgon so I don't know which is the true issue. interesting you say they go hand in hand. he's very noisy when sucking and as I say when we lie down its much easier -I too find its better if just woken up, if he's tired he can't cope. the EASY routine works for this reason plus all wind can be got out before he naps (at least that's the idea) but it gets increasingly difficult at night.

I've blamed somuch of it on me and my over supply issues. still, yet to be diagnosed.

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 21:14:11

milkmatters.org.uk/2011/04/15/hidden-cause-of-feeding-problems-however-you-feed-your-baby/

ok found lots of answers here including the no pain question and also why we've had a bit of help from colief - and your green poos toomany (IF this is the diagnosis).

if I remember correctly your lo is similar age to mine toomany? I wondered if growth spurt causing extra issues at the moment, which could explain your green poo if your lo is struggling to feed well at the mo.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Sun 17-Mar-13 21:35:41

I've had such a stressful week with all of these problems, I cried when I found her lip was tied tonight hmm. Our babies are a very similar age I think, Bronwen was born on 4th Dec. I remember you mentioning the problems you were having because I had also had the exact same problems.

Thanks for posting all of the links, I've read them all. I've been using a similar method to the exaggerated latch by trial and error. I've just read about biological nurturing. I did this the other day, again due to trial and error and she latched.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Sun 17-Mar-13 21:40:52

And you have also described my BF sessions to mini

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Sun 17-Mar-13 21:41:27

*too

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 21:55:27

George was the 10th toomany. oh you poor thing big hugs. I too have been in tears lots this week over feeding. gavisgon definitely helped a tad - on weds and thurs it was the afternoon before we managed a successful feed, on Friday after the i gav he did both breasts twice before 11 am - which he only ever does in the evening. it must just have calmed things down? a bugger to get into him though. and given more wind!

frequently find myself camped out in bed for several hours when we have a good day just letting him feed and sleep and feed again. other days there's a cycle of starting, gulping, freaking, crying, me distracting and calming, burping, calming if painful, trying again and so on. it once took 6 hours. a dummy actually helped a little this week to calm him but we've found now he's a little more satisfied he's not interested. but then we have a week where things calm a bit. I suspect growth spurts just upset the balance and it gets too much.

if it's not tt/lt here it must be reflux.

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 21:57:28

sending wine brew biscuit hugs

it's why I've fallen off the post natal threads - no time to keep up with all the winding!

Clarella Sun 17-Mar-13 21:58:59

teething is coming too. that can be green poo too. g was gnawing a lot today!

Clarella Mon 18-Mar-13 06:13:58

how are you today toomany?

we've had a hard night. there is a huge amount of info and advice on kellymom. going to look at latch and position today.

Clarella Mon 18-Mar-13 08:49:48

found this:

http://babyslime.livejournal.com/647800.html

note issues at 2.5/3 mo growth spurt xx

Clarella Mon 18-Mar-13 08:50:12
TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Mon 18-Mar-13 09:14:48

Not too bad today. She fed at 11pm and 5.30am. I've been using the exaggerated latch and that seems to be really helping, I can't roll her upper lip back at all but it helps her to take a bigger mouthful under the nipple. She's also a lot happier, no screaming at the breast and her nappies are improving, they're king of green tinged mustard now. I'm feeling a bit calmer now. Hope you are ok, it's good to have someone else to talk to who knows what it's like brewthanks

Clarella Mon 18-Mar-13 09:41:51

that's good smile

I'm talking to an lbclc lll leader via our fb group so hoping for some answers and a referral to rule it out. she suggested straddling legs upright leaning against you as an idea but he's so tired he can only copewwith lying down. she told me to doubleccheck chin touches boob which maybe I've missed at times.

argh maybe it's me?!

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Mon 18-Mar-13 10:33:27

How is George's weight? Bronwen has dropped from the 50th to just below the 25th this month, she's put on very little in the last two weeks. I've just left a message for my health visitor to discuss it with her.

Clarella Mon 18-Mar-13 11:48:11

he was born off the scale but quickly put on weight to the 9th and it looked like he was heading to the 25th. but stuck to 9th but we don't think he's put any on in last two weeks. have often though he could be fatter but dint. think that's anything to worry about. however, I spend my whole day attempting to feed him and we seem to have got into this way of lying down. I think when he's tired it's the easiest way for him. it sounds like you have more symptoms than me. I'm asking for a referral to rule it out here (tho definite lip tie) and I need some serious looking at positions. he has a hissy fit when I try anything else at mo.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Mon 18-Mar-13 14:05:59

I've found a place that lasers tongue and lip ties in Huddersfield, i think I'm going to by-pass the NHS and take her straight there.

It's a private dental practice called Cote Royd 01484 514451

I live in Leeds so it's not very far from me.

Clarella Mon 18-Mar-13 16:53:49

great toomany smile

my Dr just confirmed it - her daughter had it. we've been referred to Dr Lawson at the rvi in newcastle. it's mild though so not sure if will snip but at least I know how to deal with feeds latch etc. the only other thing you could try is contact the local lll leader and see who knows about it/ best route etc. the woman I've been speaking to in lll is qualified to spot tt and is in sunderland.

I've been given a prescription of omperozol (sp?) so it's not so painful when he's burping etc. Dr did even suggest trying dairy free to lower symptoms. I'm just going to have to be super careful about his latch. and go with the lying down thing for a while!

Clarella Mon 18-Mar-13 16:55:27

Mrs Lawson that is. there's a list on the unicef tongue tie web page of consultants who do it in uk - apparently at this age they try yo see you quickly

SolomanDaisy Mon 18-Mar-13 17:09:36

My DS had a tongue tie and I had no pain. He had it snipped at 4 weeks and it made no difference to feeding - my fast let down and oversupply were issues though. he had green poo, but that's not a problem in a healthy baby. Block feeding and him getting bigger were all we needed in the end.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Mon 18-Mar-13 21:21:16

Glad you got it diagnosed clarella, what did the doctor say about the lip tie? I'm going to book a doctors appointment tomorrow.

Clarella Tue 19-Mar-13 03:52:48

I've been lucky though, her daughter had it so she knew the score. I was told by the la leche league leader it's unusual for gps to spot. i made appt with the practice's child doc plus a woman so at least she knew how hard bf can be.

this page has a list of consultants http://www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/Parents/Problems/Tongue-Tie/

I'd ask for urgent faxed referral and maybe call hv to double check route of referral. I'd definitely find your local la leche league group on face book and post a question about what others experiences have been.

she didn't mention lip tie but I think each case is dealt with as a unique case dependant on the specific difficulties.

all the best tomorrow !

Clarella Tue 19-Mar-13 03:55:08
Clarella Tue 19-Mar-13 03:58:30

I've done block feeding Solomon and my supply is balanced now but he's still having issues. it may not help but worth seeing what consultant thinks I feel. our green poos were horrendous, he had burns on his bottom and spent all night writhing and groaning. they stank and had mucous in them. he stopped smiling for several days. colief helped a lot at that point.

SolomanDaisy Tue 19-Mar-13 07:42:41

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to suggest you shouldn't get it checked out! For lots of people it makes a huge difference, it just didn't for us. Poor boy, the green poo sounds really nasty for him. I hope you manage to get it sorted.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Tue 19-Mar-13 09:43:11

I started block feeding Bronwen at around 6 weeks because she was constantly sick due to my over supply and fast letdown. My supply was sorted out when she started producing green poos full of mucus, the problem was getting her to stay on the breast long enough to get to the fatty hind milk. She would pull of due to gulping air, get upset then wouldn't go back on so was only getting the thinner milk. I've gone back to feeding both sides but feeding more often, so less thin milk has built up in the breast. I was also doing EASY every 3 hours, she now feeds every 2-3 hours. Her bum has just about healed, it was also burnt last week hmm

I'm going to baby cafe today so will ask the BF support worker to have a look. I'm concerned that her lip tie is the main problem but the NHS won't snip lips. This is why I think I might just go private. I've joined a Facebook group called tongue tie babies, people travel from all over to visit this doctor in Huddersfield. I'm going to search for my local LLL group no also.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Tue 19-Mar-13 16:55:41

We've been referred to the specialist by the health visitor grin. She watched me feed today and agreed that it wasn't normal, she'd never heard of a lip-tie though.

Clarella Tue 19-Mar-13 17:49:41

grin!!!!

apparently they can go together. I've been told unlikely to do lip tie - but see what happens. I have a lip tie that must have stretched.

I'm so glad for you! if it doesn't get resolved at least you can understand it and hopefully get help. make sure you see the actual consultant and not a registra or anyone.
bizzarely the hv watched me feed g in my lap today as he just woke up - latched on quite well as was sleepy. not done that well for ages. however had a big carry on earlier after his mouth clicked loudly and so we're on the bed again.

too many you describe our situation so much. we've had yellow poos for a few weeks though but I'm thinking due to my lying down with him. can't remember when I started it!

good to get advice from the fb group smile

no problem Solomon! good to hear other experiences so I'm prepared in case it's not snipped/ doesn't work.

we have our appointment tomorrow at 2:30!!!!

Clarella Tue 19-Mar-13 18:58:50

I've tried to do the EASY method since you mentioned it toomany on the Nov thread! it's really worked to get burps up and I now realise tongue tied babies feed better when still a bit sleepy which means we've actually inadvertently been helping them smile

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Tue 19-Mar-13 21:32:27

If they won't do the lip tie it migh be worth a trip to Huddersfield as lip ties cause more problems in the future. They cause tooth decay and a gap between the front teeth.

Do you find the last feed before bed to be the worst? I fed at 7.30 and she cried, latched, came off and cried, latched, coughed, spluttered etc. it was such a battle to get her to feed. I think she's over tired by this point, she's much better at feeding straight after a nap.

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 03:35:51

I have a gap smile

find the mornings hardest as he doesn't sleep well due to all the wind which gets worse the morning then he seems congested and can't seem to organise himself. I wonder if acid builds up too over night so it's more painful if he burps. some afternoons can 've bad too when he's over tired. best feeds are jjust as he wakes from a nap. he knows he has a bath, book, bed with me feeding him so has always been more relaxed plus the position must be better. which is why started doing it in bed during day.

I'm going to see the lll leader on thurs so see what she advises re lip but thanks for advice.

we'll get there!! thanks

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 03:38:19

I now remember more about catching the skin on my teeth and pain under my tongue. I must have had it.

teeth ok though strangely, still no fillings at 36! (touch wood)

Twattybollocks Wed 20-Mar-13 06:54:46

Dd has lip tie and a possible ptt, (several opinions, some say yes some say no) we have lots of problems with reflux and wind. Something I have found really really helpful with the clicking and losing her latch is to shape the breast vertically rather than horizontally when latching her on, so the longest part is nose to chin rather than from lip corner to lip corner. Also found that if I hold the breast and press The breast to her mouth either side of her lip corners she doesn't click or slurp nearly as badly and the wind isn't as bad afterwards

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 09:13:35

thanks twatty - my mum said she did this. did you find it 'flared' frown time ti time? some weeks seem much harder for him than others. I've been shocked that he has cluster fed before 9 this morning. not that happy afterwards when burping but bit done that for weeks or months

Twattybollocks Wed 20-Mar-13 09:30:19

Yes, she has good weeks and bad weeks, possibly to do with her growing, tbh I'm just making it up as i go along and trying to get to 6 months, or at least to 20 weeks before I start weaning her onto solids/formula, but at the moment it's painful, she isn't happy with the reflux/wind thing and it's a battle.only consolation is that she is gaining weight well, which I wasn't expecting, so I'm releived about that at least.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Wed 20-Mar-13 10:47:30

I do something like that too twatty. LO has never liked feeding off the left breast but I tried her laid belly down with me reclined yesterday and she fed for ages. I kind of had her diagonally across my stomach so she was face down on the breast. She has also cluster fed this morning for about an hour and has done a bright yellow poonami, result!

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 11:01:42

great toomany! as I say I suspect we found our 'way' thru lying down.

sounds similar twatty. growth spurts seem to be bad

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Wed 20-Mar-13 11:18:52

I've mentioned the lip tie on the November thread and everyone who is having major feeding problems has checked and guess what? They've all got lip ties too, about four others so far. Why aren't they checked for in the hospital? how many people must give up breast feeding because of this? Unbelievable.

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 11:30:02

wow - I suppose it depends if they experience an issue or not? I bet many give up. I think hv focus on the is there pain thing, yet on tongue tie net it says not always. if this were baby # 2 he'd have lost weight

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 11:30:29

or I'd have given up

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Wed 20-Mar-13 11:32:33

I think this is why B's weight has suffered, I haven't sat and made sure she was fully fed due to having another child to deal with. I've really taken time over her feeds this last few days and she seems to be gaining weight again.

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 11:47:46

oh I didn't realise toomany sad my gp said her daughter was no 2 and so really struggled. I suspect she didn't know with no 1.

I think that's why unicef are pushing it as helps bf. midwifes used to snip routinely but stopped due to infection concerns etc plus fashion for bottle feeding.

I think it might be why some babies are refluxy, windy, colicy and hard work - I see a big difference when I know he's feeding better.

even went in the sling and fell asleep before!

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 11:48:13

well done for putting on the Nov thread.

kissyfur Wed 20-Mar-13 12:08:25

Waves to clarella and Toomany

V glad you did mention it on the other thread Toomany! Thanks so much. Can't believe they don't check for it sad

We have feeding issues here too, and reflux. I don't think it's causing my LO as many problems as you are experiencing but she is going through a refusing feed phase at the mo and now I'm wondering if the lip tie is causing it. She sometimes clicks when feeding. We don't have the green poo right now but we did for a while at about 2 months old.

Spoke to HV this morning and she's suggested I go to the tongue tie clinic at our local hospital, so will see where that leads us

Thanks again

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Wed 20-Mar-13 12:14:59

Glad to help kissy, B was refusing last week and was screaming within seconds of latching on. Google 'biological nurturing', this position has really helped me when B refuses to latch.

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 13:02:09

we were the same last week. gavisgon did help a bit but.made wind worse. been prescribed omozepral ?? but wo.nt try yet

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 14:01:49

on way to appt . really nervous!

kissyfur Wed 20-Mar-13 14:33:45

Good luck! Hope it goes well.

We've got an appt tomorrow morning

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Wed 20-Mar-13 14:57:50

Good luck clarella! That was quick kissy, I'm still waiting to hear.

kissyfur Wed 20-Mar-13 16:40:17

I know I was a bit shocked to hear back from the HV so quickly, think it must be a cancellation or something. Hope you hear something soon

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 16:42:25

rather confused - she said it was slight and not what they'd class as tt but there was tightness there and she'd do it there and then. we have another appointment on Monday if we want to go ahead and Im hoping to see a bf advisor in the meantime (lll who knows about tt)

feel a bit silly not doing it actually :/

little monkey fed really well on my lap though was exceptionally dozy.

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 16:43:28

great kissy - I think it's cos it needs to be urgent.

she said she'd only done 3 lips in 20 years

kissyfur Wed 20-Mar-13 16:56:45

No need to feel silly clarella, would get it done Monday tho. Don't think it hurts them having it snipped

Well my mum has been over this afternoon so I showed her LO's lip and she thinks I'm being a paranoid mum (as usual)! But it really looks like the pictures on the websites you posted links for, guess we will find out tomorrow

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 17:27:30

she said his lip tie was quite normal and would stretch. I suppose each situation is taken on its merits though

ValiumQueen Wed 20-Mar-13 18:11:34

Thank you dicks and clarella [Thanks] J is 21 weeks and has lip tie. I only know this because of you. Tongue is fine. This past week I have had to cut back on bf as J was so unwell with lactose overload. I had been block feeding for weeks and my left boob has given up as he will no longer feed from it. I am going to kick some ass at baby clinic tomorrow. I bet I get blank looks all round. I will report back then. I am very sad as I fed my first two children with no problems, and I have sought help from HCPs on several occasions, including the hospital, only to be told he is a hungry baby.

ValiumQueen Wed 20-Mar-13 18:16:24

Bf was the best bit of being a mum with the girls, with J it has been the worst bit sad

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Wed 20-Mar-13 19:17:50

I feel like that too VQ. Breast feeding was so easy with DD1, I can still remember the sensation of milk being literally pulled out of my breast by her, she was such an efficient feeder.

Incidentally, block feeding is not the way to go with lip/tongue tie because too much fore milk builds up and they don't get enough fatty milk. You need to feed from both sides often so that they get to the fatty milk quickly.

Clarella Wed 20-Mar-13 20:49:39

yes I realise the above now toomany.

oh vq I'm so sorry. tongue might have small tie though? often go together. I feel you'd benefit from some really expert .bf advice. you might get boob going again ?

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Wed 20-Mar-13 21:07:16

Glad she was willing to do his tongue clarella, I just don't think there's enough of a fuss about lips so they won't do anything. Watching B feed I can see gaps at the sides of her mouth because her top lip will not flange. It's definitely the top lip that is affecting the latch.

I actually think I've got a tongue tie, I can't touch the roof of my mouth when I open my mouth wide. My sister can't open her mouth very far at all and neither of use we're breastfed past a week. My mum said that we both lost a lot of weight and she was told to formula feed us both.

minipie Wed 20-Mar-13 22:39:18

I was convinced DD's problem was her lip tie rather than her tongue tie but in fact getting the tongue alone snipped did lead to major improvement. even though she still couldn't flange top lip properly the feeds were much better. and now her mouth has grown and she can flange her top lip too.

TT and lip tie often run in families so if you or DH/DP have a gap or your mother or MIL struggled to BF then it's worth checking your baby.

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 05:34:13

thanks for your experience mini. was it a 'posterior' tie? she didn't use that word but said there was tightness at the back if the tongue. she said the lip would stretch.

after many posts on the local fb lll page I'm thinking to just gettin done on Monday. I suddenly feel my milk is a lot less actually which someone said happened to them. unless it's normal as I'm used to having too much!

too many that does sound very much like you have - my lll leader said it's passed on the male side but obviously who knows with genetics!

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 05:37:31

mini did you try dairy free or was it the tie? I think I saw a thread where you'd considered it?

I'm trying as even doc suggested it. I'm doing it to disprove the theory; either way I get satisfaction - disprove theory or happy baby grin

it's a bugger tho.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Thu 21-Mar-13 10:46:59

My milk feels less since I've started feeding from both sides again but I think this is a good thing. It means that I'm only producing what is needed and and I'm not storing lots of hind milk in the breast. B is a lot happier and her nappies have massively improved. She has only produced one green nappy a day for the last three days and that has been the morning nappy, this would make sense as she sleeps through from 10.20pm until 6am so the breast would be full of hind milk by 6. The green nappy occurs at around 9am.

kissyfur Thu 21-Mar-13 12:17:03

Glad to hear B is happier Toomany

Well, we had our appt at the tongue tie clinic. Had a good chat with a lactation consultant, she said all the things I was describing could just be normal 4 month old behaviour, that she could be fussing because of a growth spurt, curiosity, or that she's just more efficient at getting milk out so feeds take less time. She watched us feed but predictably LO only fed for a minute or 2 then pulled off and wouldn't feed again. There was some clicking and her latch slipped a bit but she said she thought fast flow could be causing that. The tongue tie specialist looked at her lip and said there was a tie but it wasn't the worst she had seen and the best thing to do was to wait and she if it affected her as she got older. As she's gaining weight well and seems happy enough. She did say she wasn't really trained in dealing with lip ties though (not sure why not? Seems to me that TT & LT quite often go hand in hand)

Anyway, I'm quite glad I went, although LO is still refusing to feed again today sad

Sorry that was a bit long

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Thu 21-Mar-13 12:47:11

Not trained in dealing with lip ties, says it all really. I don't hold out much hope for my meeting with the specialist either but I know her lip is definitely stopping her from getting a good vacuum when she latches. B breaks off because when she swallows, gaps appear at the corners of her mouth so she loses suction.

It said in the guardian article that breasfeeding is all down to latch, every part of the mouth has to be in contact with the breast for it to work. It really depresses me that we are having to fight for this.

kissyfur Thu 21-Mar-13 12:57:21

Me too sad I thought it was very interesting that on that FB group you mentioned there are loads of people in America having lip ties corrected by quick laser surgery with no need for a GA, and over here it's a 'big operation under a GA' why do they make it so hard? I know there is the place in Huddersfield you can go to privately, but if they can fix things quickly and easily in the private sector, why can't they in the NHS? If it does affect LO when she's older I will pay to have it fixed privately, but why should I have to?

We all know how good breastfeeding is for our babies, why is it a constant struggle to get the support we need to make it happen easily?

I am seriously considering training as a lactation specialist, it makes me so sad to hear of all these mums who want to BF but can't because they just don't get the support they need, and deserve. Maybe I could try and make a small difference

Sorry, rant over!

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Thu 21-Mar-13 13:47:21

I was having the same thoughts this morning, could I retrain as a lactation consultant? It really makes me want to do it too.

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 15:30:54

hi all - I feel like I could be a lactation specialist!!

just got back from seeing the bf guru of the north east - she was amaaaaaazing. saw his tie and really explained why it was a problem. helped me into biological nurturingposition with him and showed me an upside down winding technique (you'd have to see it!) he 'planks' a lot from the wind so it's trying to get him to relax and stretch his back out so it's more flexible.

she did explain how the tongue is the root of a lot - peristalsis starts at the tongue and goes all the way through the digestive system. she noted that it doesn't undulate properly and is trying to lift when he cries. it is actually quite common hence only bad ties being treated. however in the past ties were routinely cut and she said s Nigeria woman she knew said the 'midwife' from her village cut all the babies tongues at birth. they used to here too.

she said lip ties can be stretched - when playing with him just flip it up. and when tt is cut we're to run fingers round gums to encourage his tongue ti follow it side to side. she said he had a high pallette too which would flatten with continued .bf and a more flexi tongue. this flattening helps space the teeth to so the mouth isn't so crowded.

tongue ties do impact on dental health as you need mobility in the tongue to remove food etc.

however g also has a water infection (newcastle screen really well) which might also be causing issues so we've got antibiotics and a trip to hospital to be screened (newcastle just do that - think it's a pilot study)

so basically we're getting it snipped though she commented our consultant is conservative in the snipping.

I'm joining the LLL.

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 16:37:40

kissy sorry not seen this page - sorry you've had a hard time. was the lactation specialist lbclc? has a tongue tie been seen? when she cries what does her tongue do?

I hope I haven't led people up wrong path with the lip tie - the tongue tie has much more of an impact on feeding. if they go hand in hand it's likely theres a tongue issue. it's just finding someone who can identify it.

ValiumQueen Thu 21-Mar-13 16:37:46

Well, I saw GP and HV today and neither had ever heard of lip tie or lactose overload. They were not in the slightest bit interested and clearly think I am neurotic. I will push for treatment if it affects his teeth or speech in the future. We have a referral to dietician. I am continuing the swap to ff and have fought today for a px for lactose free milk. I do not want to increase to full bf again as my mental health will not cope with that. I will feed him boob as long as he wants, but most of his feeds will be ff. My left boob has completely given up (it did with DD2 at 8 months too ) so I am accepting of this. He is now 5 months old so too little too late really. He will be starting solids soon, and using a cup.

I thought block feeding helped baby get the hind milk?

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 16:48:37

I'm so sorry vq. huge hugs. have you called the nct bf helpline or the lll help line? that's how I found about lactose overload and tt via lll. .gp and hv useless till saw gp who's daughter had it. this really is lbclc stuff.

I think the block feeding depends on the baby. if baby can effectively suck the breasts settle quickly. there's a different view though if you think about a hot tap. when it's not been used for a while it is cold till it runs for a bit. if it's recently been used its warm or hot even. so regularly visiting the breasts means warmer milk (warm as in hind milk, cold as in foremilk) so a baby struggling to suck might struggle to get through the fore milk. I was recently advised to let him drain one and offer second even if for a few sucks after block feeding (well generally just sticking to one side per feed). my breasts feel softer but whejbi express there's less fore milk as they're being used more frequently. iykwim.

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 17:03:35

I feel there needs to be s thread in here called - bf issues? learn about tongue tie. the guru I saw wishes it were taken more seriously

ValiumQueen Thu 21-Mar-13 17:05:50

clarella if this were happening three months ago, I would do. I am past caring now. I cannot cope with anything else. I have tried all I can. We will hobble along on one boob until he rejects that. He is big enough to cope with formula now, as am I. I need to draw a line and move on. We will be ok.

Meringue33 Thu 21-Mar-13 17:22:32

Please could someone post or PM me details of NE guru and Huddersfield consultant? Having some issues here and wonder if may be related

MsJupiterJones Thu 21-Mar-13 17:44:33

Sorry I missed this thread before Clarella et al.

I've mentioned it on other threads so sorry if I'm repeating myself but this is my experience & story in case it helps anyone:

DS (now 21wks) lost more than 10% of bodyweight after birth and I was under a lot of pressure to top up with formula which I declined. He was ebf until 11 weeks and during that time gained weight but very slowly. I had no pain other than initial sore nips which passed. He had been checked for TT at birth by a mw and his tongue and latch were checked by mws, HVs, drs, paeds even the bf counsellor at the hosp and all said he was fine despite heart shaped tongue. Eventually same bfc said maybe he did have some restriction & referred us to another hosp with TT specialists. They checked and confirmed a PTT and said he had almost no tongue function and had been sucking with his mouth and flicking his tongue to get the let down. They said it was amazing he'd put on weight at all and he must have been working really hard (I could cry thinking of that). It was snipped at 11 wks but by then he had dipped well below the 0.4 line and even the TT people said they thought he needed formula to get his strength up so we have been mixed feeding since then and he is slowly moving up the centiles (now on 2nd). I was hoping to go back to ebf but despite an improved latch from the TT division and expressing it has not yet been possible - as he is now 5 months we will be starting solids soon anyway.

So to answer the initial questions in the op it is certainly possible to have a TT without experiencing pain. Also I would say it is still worth having it snipped but it was more traumatic than the younger patients seemed to find it. However the latch is so much better, feels totally different so I am sure it was worth it.

The TT specialists said exactly what others are saying, that it is incredibly common and mws used to just snip it in hosp or at a home visit with surgical scissors, but now people are just so used to formula it is missed.

Considering how much a higher bf rate would apparently save the NHS, it seems like a no brainer that mws need to be trained on these TTs and LTs urgently.

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 17:56:17

bloody hell Mrs Jupiter. your last line definitely rings huge bells. not to mention saving many kids dental issues.

oh but wait - the makers of infacol et al and formula would see a dip in their sales <facepalm>

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 17:56:50

I worry about age of lo he'll be 15 w on Monday sad

Clarella Thu 21-Mar-13 17:57:44

merangue will try to, am on phone

kissyfur Thu 21-Mar-13 20:20:57

Glad you had a successful day clarella, your guru sounds great! Think the ladies I saw today were NHS workers, I probably should have asked! What is lblc? No tongue tie but a lip tie that they won't do anything about. I will get it done privately if LO has problems with teeth because of it.

Sorry you didn't have any success with your GP or HV VQ sad

It's been one hell of a day, feeling v emotional about BFing and the lack of support. Clarella your comment about formula companies etc is so true! It makes me so angry and sad

Pikz Thu 21-Mar-13 20:30:01

It's all training. Midwives now are expected like HV to be generalists in all and specialists in nothing.

Like you say the snip takes seconds but we had to be referred by a breastfeeding specialist to a surgeon!

So frustrating, I couldn't breastfeed as that process took 6 weeks and he couldn't latch.

VQ I am sorry but as you say, onwards and upwards, wine

ValiumQueen Thu 21-Mar-13 21:40:13

kissy it is an extremely emotional thing this feeding lark. I have been positively anxious since I got home. Quite tearful too. We should not have to fight with doctors, basically telling them their job. I was questioning my sanity at one point, and have been seeking reassurance from DH that I am not imagining things. I think it is because these little creatures are so very precious we would happily die for them. When they are threatened in any way it affects us so very deeply.

kissyfur Thu 21-Mar-13 23:35:14

Same here VQ, my DP is away at the mo and I'm finding it so tough having no-one to off load the days worries to (apart from the quiche of course). It's just awful when they scream and scream and you don't know how to help them.

Clarella Fri 22-Mar-13 00:31:32

ibclc oops I was wrong. international board of certified lactation ..... something. highest qualification

floods of tears earlier when I knew ds wanted a feed and basically gave up when let down came in sad

Clarella Fri 22-Mar-13 00:35:05

no I was right.... ibclc.... consultants.

Zemm Fri 22-Mar-13 14:26:56

Hi, I have a 17 week old just diagnosed with a tongue and lip tie. This thread sounds so familiar! She has all the normal feeding issues with poor latch/taking in +++ air, lots of wind, reflux, difficulty settling evening/night etc.
I have just booked an appointment with Dr Levinkind for Tuesday to assess her and laser both if necessary and was just wanting to know about peoples experience of his clinic, the procedure and how your baby was afterwards. I would really appreciate any information you can give me as I am feeling a little nervous as I cant find much direct information/reviews about him or the service.
Thank you very much.

capedcrusader25 Fri 22-Mar-13 19:15:55

Found it smile Although slightly different as O has been ff since the beginning. However it has been horrendous. Stressful, painful for her, constant feeding taking - taking hours to have a tiny amount, trapped wind, sick all the time. I feel like I've had a constant headache since she was born and I've found it so, so hard to cope sometimes. Spent many a day in tears. However no weight loss. In fact she's followed her line perfectly. But then I've spent the past 5 months (nearly) feeding her continuously so no surprise really!! Grr. Anyway been to the dentist. Thought after reading how seemingly useless the gp and hv can be the dentist may be a better option. He's going to support her and is with it and monitor her closely. The feeding I can manage, and I feel better knowing the dentist is ok side.

Wow that was long and self-indulgent sad

Clarella Sat 23-Mar-13 14:17:19

not at all self indulgent. we mums will do all we can to mmake sure our babies are fed. though you are ff, you describe the same issues I've had except that 1. as I had no pain to speak of it wasn't picked up and 2. I've blamed my 'over supply issues' - which think I had a bit of but also he wasn't effectively removing enough milk. so I blamed my strong let down and too much foremilk causing all the wind and green poos.

just been to an lll meeting which was great. met some other mums who are struggling and looks like there's a tt issue.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Sat 23-Mar-13 14:42:01

I'm going to book a consultation with the dentist who sorts out lip/tongue ties on Monday. It's driving me mad, we had a good feed at 12, she had a really good latch, I then winded her and she vomited up what looked like the whole lot sad.

minipie Sat 23-Mar-13 17:01:53

clarella, belated answers to your questions: yes DD had a posterior TT. and yes I did go non dairy for ages but that made no visible difference (and no difference when i recently went back on dairy) whereas getting the TT snipped made a big difference.

DD was about 15 weeks when we got the TT snipped.

if you had oversupply, that may have masked the TT as your LO didn't have to have a great latch in order to get enough to be full. same happened with me I think.

Clarella Sat 23-Mar-13 18:44:21

oh toomany - hugs. it's so frustrating. you are so delighted with a good feed and yer it shouldn't need to be like that! and then how devastating ti see them in pain.

I was delighted at the lll meeting I went to this morn I was actually able to feed up and slightly laid back through to milk drunk face - not achieved milk drunk in public for weeks and only then after an initial battle.

thanks mini - he'll beexactly 15 on Monday. did you find latch improved? how long did it take for you? I know each baby is different tho. I'm v worried! yes I wonder how much was over supply against his ability to drain the breast of normal engorgement. though I had been expressing a bit more than was needed.

kissyfur Sun 24-Mar-13 13:09:13

Hoping tomorrow goes well clarella, will be thinking of you and LO

Hugs Toomany, hope things are better today. Thinking in going to take LO to Huddersfield to get her lip tie done as well, it's a long journey for us but think it'll be worth it. Let us know how u get on x

minipie Sun 24-Mar-13 13:13:05

yes, major improvement (though still not perfect eg I still find feeds in public aren't very effective) - took about 10 days to see clear improvement and about 2/3 weeks to get the full effect.

Clarella Mon 25-Mar-13 11:29:21

thanks mini. extremely nervous about the appointment this afternoon. xx

Clarella Mon 25-Mar-13 11:29:34

lol in text mode!

minipie Mon 25-Mar-13 13:20:56

good luck! and xx back to you grin

Clarella Mon 25-Mar-13 13:52:22

thanks!

kissyfur Mon 25-Mar-13 20:34:00

How did it go clarella? Hope everything went well and G is feeding better now

Clarella Mon 25-Mar-13 20:45:02

all done - not much of a do at all - jabs are worse! he was super brave and fed within a couple of mins smile I can't be sure but latch feels deeper and less messy already but will see how next few days go. so tired, been so wound up about it. thanks for your support. how are things with you? any progress?.and toomany? x

kissyfur Mon 25-Mar-13 20:53:32

Aww so glad to hear that smile
Not much change here, LO still off feeding in the day but I think that's due to her being nosey and getting distracted more than anything else. Am going to take her to the dentist about her lip and if they think it will cause problems go to Huddersfield and get it fixed. Have HV visiting tomorrow so will see if she has any advice too

Clarella Mon 25-Mar-13 21:00:29

I feel distraction added an extra issue to the latch problem. any little peer or jerk upset everything. another reason why lying in bed got better results!

I must admit I have a lip tie and a small gap and at 36 no fillings - mine has stretched. I was fed till 2 and half though which apparently would have helped flatten my pallette and spread my teeth thus better dental health. but if you feel it's that much ofan issue when feeding its not going to harm getting cut. hope hv can help ( I often find they can't!! )

kissyfur Mon 25-Mar-13 21:17:13

I didn't manage to get her to feed for more than 5 minutes today, she kept looking at DD1 or the TV. Hopefully it's a phase she will grow out of!

It's hard to tell at the moment as their little mouths are so small but I do think it comes quite far down on her gum, just don't want it to affect her speech or anything, and id rather get it sorted while she is small. hopefully the dentist will be able to help. As for the HV, I don't hold out much hope either, but you never know smile

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor Tue 26-Mar-13 09:50:25

Glad it went well clarella smile. We seemed to have turned a corner here, B is feeding much better and her poo is a normal colour. I think it was a mammoth growth spurt that she has now come through. I don't know what she weighs now but she looks physically bigger. I'm still waiting to hear from the hospital, I've got a dentist appointment next week anyway so I'm going to ask his advice.

Clarella Tue 26-Mar-13 19:26:06

oh dear kissy - hopefully a phase! problem is I think thats why they don't sleep as well in the night and get hungry! totally understand about sorting it out while small though.

that's good toomany - I'm sure it's growth spurts that knock us sideways. both the demand fir extra calories plus the mouth and face grows and changes.

we had a funny screaming fit mid morning while trying to feed but as he's on antibiotics too which are messing up his system plus possibly teething I don't know if it was that. not branched out beyond bed since. I'm wondered if the suck seems more effective. he's certainly got a lot more movement from side to side.

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