Help!!!clueless mum of non sleeping 5 day d

(32 Posts)
apachepony Fri 11-Jan-13 03:28:07

My 5 day old won't go to sleep in his cot for me. I am breastfeeding but as he has jaundice have been told to supplement with formula. I am worried that this will prevent my milk coming in. My milk came in late and he ended up dehydrated due to really bad advice on day 2 about not waking him every 3 hours to sleep.
He is quite a windy baby (especially after formula) and I am really crap at winding him. He seems to go into his cot a lot easier for my dh.
He has just refused to go into his cot for me, crying with his legs and face screwed up, then also chewing his hand - due to this last cue, I keep on putting him to my breast but I'm worried I'm not making enough/any milk.
So do you think he sounds windy, or hungry, or just refusing to leave his mum? He is currently sleeping on my shoulder. My dh really doesn't want to co-sleep. I really don't want to feed formula but looks like I'm going to be hit with supply issues that will make bf impossible

adagio Fri 11-Jan-13 03:41:28

Hi, I am a lurker here having had my baby girl three weeks ago.

I am breastfeeding and my baby lost weight for first two weeks. I was having visits from a variety of midwifes/lactation consultants/community assistants every other day to weigh the baby. I was loaned a breast pump and expressed along with every feed (on the other boob) to make more milk, which DH gave her at night - last feed before 'bed' (ha) and she started to gain weight at the end of last week. I was told that if we needed to top up with formula so long as i expressed too then my milk would increase and formula could therefore decrease as your body catches up.

Have you tried calling one of the helplines or you midwife unit for advice?

Weekipper Fri 11-Jan-13 03:49:58

I'd put him to the breast whenever he seemed hungry that will stimulate your supply.(Hopefully someone else with more experience will come along but didn't want to read and run)

At 5 days old our DD spent a lot of time sleeping on us and we nearly always only put her in her Moses basket when she was already asleep. Now she's 21weeks unless its 7pm she won't just drop off in her cot but sleeps on the move or after a feed on me.

At that stage I just went with my gut instinct so I'd recommend trusting what you feel is right

LadyWidmerpool Fri 11-Jan-13 03:51:19

He sounds hungry to me. I would BF as much as possible if I were you. The more you BF the more milk you will have. There are lots of experts on this board who will be along in a while and who can give brilliant advice but for now I wouldn't worry about trying to put him down awake. Can you transfer him once he's asleep? Failing that could you co-sleep tonight at least before ringing one of the BF helplines tomorrow? With a jaundiced five day old baby your DH needs to be flexible. Good luck and congratulations!

OddFrog Fri 11-Jan-13 04:19:05

My dd is just 5 weeks and is bf. seems like she's never off the breast! If your ds is hungry, keep him close to you and keep feeding. It's exhausting, but it will ease off. At 5 days, your milk supply is still just coming in so don't panic. Just keep going. Co sleep if you need to as you might get more rest that way and it won't be long. You're not setting 'routines' at this stage; you're just getting by as best you can! Try to eat well and keep up your own energy as much as you can.

If you can get hold of a copy of book it has great advice on jaundice, winding and all sorts. It's my current go - to guide.

Hope you find a way that works for you.

jaggythistle Chile Fri 11-Jan-13 04:36:22

The more you put baby to the breast the more milk you make. Try not to use too much formula as this will not help your milk coming in. Lots and lots of feeding id normal for tiny new babies.

The breast and bottle feeding board on here is great and you can also try a help line as mentioned above. Maybe repost this on that board for expert help.

Congratulations on your new baby!

Cosmostocupcakes Fri 11-Jan-13 04:59:44

I am sure this cycle has been mentioned to you re jaundice -

jaundice = sleepy baby = not feeding properly by falling asleep after a few mins = hungry = crying = wind = crying = sleepy

I totally get the breast is best BUT not to the detriment of your baby or mummy!

this is from my experience - I ended up combination feeding both mine - 1st son did not get back to birth wait for over 3 weeks and looked like a skeleton before I introduced formula - my 2nd lost 13% body weight and was going the same way so introduced after a week. I found (personally) that when they were stronger they were more interested in feeding and not just suckling!

Also can recommend Co-sleeping to help you get some rest - which is required to increase your supply (aslo good for sticking them on breat during the night - pumping will also help!

re wind try pumping legs, also keep an eye on such things as silent reflux and refulx as this also can become an issue (and nothing is ever mentioned until you have both been suffering for a while!)

It gets easier as you gain more knowledge and understanding - try to enjoy!

apachepony Fri 11-Jan-13 06:03:57

He was hungry. At the next feed he took 60ml of formula, which is by far the most he has taken to date. Now he asked to go back on the boob although usually he is zonked by 20 mins boob and 35ml formula. I think my breasts may have feck all in them. I have not been able to express, and last time I tried, think I tenderised a nipple which is now badly cracked. I'm really disappointed but I think it will be difficult to keeps supply up.
We were kept in hospital til yesterday because of his jaundice and have another appointment this morning as they are still concerned. I guess his health is the main thing. I really wanted to make bf work though:.:
We are currently cosleeping though as dh realised how much quieter the room became!

jaggythistle Chile Fri 11-Jan-13 06:18:55

the amount you express bears no relation to the amount of milk you are producing - some people just can't express successfuly even when feeding is fine.

Please repost here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding or try the helplines for real life advice It is hard work getting feeding started, but frequent feeding will help both with establishing supply and clearing teh jaundice more quickly.

My DS2 was a bit jaundiced at 3 days and I encouraged him to feed more by cuddling him in under a blanket skin to skin as he was getting sleepy. It sound like yours is more erious if hospital involved, but feeding as much as possible will stll help.

good luck. smile

jaggythistle Chile Fri 11-Jan-13 06:21:36

*serious not erious blush

awful typing all over that post, sorry! can't even blame my phone today.

preggersshock Fri 11-Jan-13 06:46:32

The helplines are brilliant, call and chat to someone and ask for a lactation consultant to come out to you. Get to as many breast feeding clinics as you can, honestly it really helps (even if it is a huge phaff at the time)!

I had trouble getting bf going and as first time mum you of course have no idea what to do for the best. I left it too late (determined to sort it myself and it myself and too embarrassed to go to a clinic), in hindsight I wish I had gone earlier and at 5 days you still have time.

mummy2benji Fri 11-Jan-13 09:22:52

Don't assume you have no supply because you don't get much / any when expressing - the let down reflex is bizarre and some women won't produce any milk for a pump yet make copious amounts for baby when breastfeeding. Just using the pump will stimulate supply even if you don't make anything. Do you find your boobs get tingly or hard overnight between feeds, or leak any milk? Assuming baby gives you 2-3 hours break between feeds, that is. If you don't get much break between feeds you might not notice that as much.

The main way of knowing if baby is getting enough milk from you is weight. Your midwife should be coming out to you regularly - give her a call and ask for advice. There is a very strict protocol in the uk regarding weight and feeding advice - how much weight loss is acceptable, when you need to top up etc. Also wet nappies and poos. Check no orange crystals in nappies - these are normal for first few days but not after that, and can indicate a bit of dehydration. Baby should be pooing every day. Ask you midwife about local breastfeeding cafes - they are excellent. Go and spend a few hours there just getting support and advice - they are usually health visitors or midwives who run them.

Breastfeeding can be VERY hard to get established! You are NOT a failure in any way if you decide it isn't working for you and you do end up changing to formula. You need to do what's right for you and baby and at the end of the day a stressed and anxious mum isn't what is best for either of you. x

JiltedJohnsJulie Fri 11-Jan-13 11:04:53

Haven't got much time to post just wondered if you'd called a bfing helpline or read this?

Keep posting and let us know how you get on smile

Oh and you might want to ask Mn to move this to the Breeast & bottle section. There are a couple of HFCs who post in there [smike]

lola88 Fri 11-Jan-13 13:47:10

I can't help with th BF as i always FF apart from to say don't worry to much about if you do need to FF it's not the end of the world.

With DS i started by putting him on my lap to sleep, then moved him laying pressed against my leg on the sofa, then next to me on the sofa, then next to me in the moses basket over a few days then he got used to sleeping alone after about 2 weeks old i never held him while he slept anymore (even when i wanted too) he's always slept in his buggy or cot from then on.

JiltedJohnsJulie Fri 11-Jan-13 21:40:41

How are you getting on now apache?

apachepony Sat 12-Jan-13 00:12:13

Well, he has been v sleepy all day as when we went for his appointment, although he was below intervention levels, they still weren't happy, and want us to feed a lot of formula. So he's v sleepy from all the milk and jaundice (I'm breastfeeding him first too) and either my mum or dh are putting him down so I haven't had to deal with sleep issues . The midwife there was b reassuring about breastfeeding, showing me new positions and advising on pumping to get my supply up, also reminding me that although bf may make jaundice more difficult to recover from, it's best for baby in the long run. So here's hoping when this is all over I can get my supply. Back in tomorrow for another check, fingers crossed all this feeding will have helped clear it. Meant to post this on the breastfeeding section today but never had time! Hopefully things will resolve and my dh has come round to the cosleeping idea - though he is so tiny I would be scared of squashing him!

apachepony Sat 12-Jan-13 00:21:20

Also I know ff is not the end of the world, but he has a lovely latch, I enjoy him cuddling in, us both learning a new skill, and I was so determined to bf - I caught toxoplasmosis in pregnancy that put his life at severe risk, I felt so responsible and was determined that he would get breast milk as being the very best start I could do for him. So a bit distraught that I may have contributed to his first week being spent sick

ifso Sat 12-Jan-13 00:22:14

just wanted to say, for me I had an awful supply, but they recommended taking herbal tablet Fenugreek, which miraculously stimulated my previously non existent supply within 2 days, much more milk. Apparently they used it in Egyptian times. I took 2 tablets per day, but check. Google it for more info. Good luck OP x

ifso Sat 12-Jan-13 00:23:57

also, they told me tomkeep my water intake high, as the water in my body helps milk production also. as does rest, eating well, taking a 'babymoon' where you rest in bed, with bub close to you and feed on demand for a full couple of days. surround yourself with magazines, books, tv, water, snacks etc and just nest with your precious new baby!

TheFallenNinja Sat 12-Jan-13 00:25:58

Don't worry, you don't sound clueless at all, now is when all the advice and opinions come in and it's a heap of information to take in.

Babies gain lots of fat before birth to prepare for this.

Expressing will stimulate your milk and day by day you will recognise patterns beginning to form with feeds, cues, changes and (dare i say) sleep. It's a tough time but you can do it. smilesmile

He sounds like he needs to be close to you and bfing tbh.

Just stay in bed with your baby this weekend, get others to bring you food. Keep formula to a minimum and cuddle and feed with no regard for time.

Day 5 is crap. It just is. Hormone crash and deprived of sleep plus the realisation of your responsibility. Just get through it.

ohforfoxsake Sat 12-Jan-13 00:33:11

I wouldn't worry about a cot at this stage - at 5 days old all you need to do is feed and gaze, feed and gaze. smile

Can't recommend Lansinoh cream enough for cracked nipples, and cabbage leaves for engorgement.

Take to your bed, or sofa, and establish breast feeding. (What's it caled -a 'baby moon'?) Do you swaddle him? The cot might be too big for him, so if you have a Moses basket you could put that in the cot.

It's still early days, do whatever works for you and try not to worry too much. Good luck smile

keep getting help irl! breast feeding groups/cafes/clinics are all fab.
ds only had mild jaundice but i was advised to feed feed feed and stick him in front of the window grin
for the first 4 weeks he would only sleep ON me then at week 5 he decided he would only nap in his pram (on me at night) and he has continued to distance himself (sleepwise only!) and at 21 months now the swine wont even room shareshock with sleep, take the path of least resistence grin

OliviaPeacein2013Mumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 12-Jan-13 01:00:00

<oooh teeny tiny baby> <cluck cluck>
Congrats OP grin
We shall move this to the breastfeeding topic but whoever said earlier, it's early days - do whatever works for you was probably right grin

<leaves thread sharpish before she gets broody>

grin

Ontesterhooks Sat 12-Jan-13 01:57:36

Hi have windy baby 2 weeks here and found success with infacol - took about 3/4 feeds using it then I noticed big improvement. Also found putting ds over a pillow on my knee on his tummy cradling his head to side with one hand and rubbing his back really helps too!

PiccadillyCervix Sat 12-Jan-13 02:38:48

get a co-sleeper if you are worried about the safety issue of the baby coming in to bed- they are amazing mine even had a detachable night light for night feeds

Clarella Sat 12-Jan-13 06:49:58

another secret to winding I've just been told by nursery nurse who came to teach massage for colic and wind is keeping their back very straight - we find stroking down rather then patting v effective and if you keep changing positions while trying ti straighten back it really helps. keep at utterly fir a good 20 or even 30 mins - good luck!

Loislane78 Sat 12-Jan-13 08:56:05

Hey apache sorry to hear you've had a tough start. I would never go against medical advice, just wanted to share my experience.

When I came home LO became too sleepy to feed and on visit from MW next morning (day 3) she was v jaundice. Was on the line for hospitalization but when the MW called the paediatrician from my house they were basically full. Was told to initiate a feeding plan and retest in 24 hours. Luckily she had lost v little weight which may have swayed their decision for us to stay at home.

Anyway, the MW was confident enough to let us continue BF. I hand expressed a bit and syringe fed a couple of times to try and rouse her. Also stripped her off for lots of skin to skin, cool water and cotton wool on the face etc. and had to feed every 2 hours. MW phoned later that day to see if she was feeding and came for the next few days to check the bilirubin levels. Whilst they weren't actually going down, every 24 hours the baby can tolerate more I think so it stabilized.

It took longer for her jaundice to go because she was BF (maybe 4/5 weeks) but no one seemed worried (apart from me cos I thought she was orange and looked like an umpalumpa!)

My point is, you can successfully exclusively BF through jaundice in some circumstances (if you want to that is, I'm not in anyway suggesting formula is bad in case anyone thinks that) so be sure to phone the helplines as others have said if you don't want to top up longer term.

Very best of luck smile

tiktok Sat 12-Jan-13 09:07:11

Apache - what a dififcult start. Particularly difficult hauling a tiny baby to and from appointments sad sad

I'm not going to add anything to the stuff here - except to say talk to someone about this, on the bf helplines and/or with a midwife you trust.

There is honestly no such thing as a sleeping issue with a tiny baby (you may be tired of course and stressed....but the baby just needs to be close to you, and may well not want to sleep apart, and this is normal not something to be fixed at this stage). Frequent feeds, offering both breasts at least at each session = normal and good smile

VegemiteSandwich Sat 12-Jan-13 09:22:20

Hi, I'm afraid I've not read the whole thread (v tired with a 3 week old baby!) but wanted to reassure you that I had a similar problem.

My baby lost 11% of his birthweight, my milk took 8 days to come in and we had to do top ups. I was distraught that this would affect supply, and yes possibly top ups delayed my milk, but it got his weight up and saved our sanity. We're now breast feeding with no probs at all.

apachepony Sat 12-Jan-13 19:34:54

Thanks everybody. Good news at the appointment - his bilirubin has gone down and they're not really worried any more. In fact the doctor was delayed, I spent the time bf and his levels had dropped further when doctor retested. I've bought a pump, and will try to express while phasing out the formula

JiltedJohnsJulie Sat 12-Jan-13 21:55:31

That's good news apache. Have you spoken to a BFC about phasing out the top ups? You might also find this article useful smile

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