Nightmare evening

(39 Posts)
Jims Tue 20-Nov-12 22:51:00

So bf my 11 day old has been going well, although he's v clicky when he feeds there's no apparent obvious Tt but maybe a lip tie. But this evening i just haven't managed to let down properly and he's not sucking properly either to get things going. Have finally given him a couple of oz out of the freezer (but there are only a couple left now) and tried to express without success.

I'm so paranoid about bf having had issues with ds1 and pnd the first time. Ds2 also lost 40g between day 5-10 so i know it's important to get milk into him but we've een having loads of wet and dirty nappies and i can trll if he's had a good drink ehich he does mostly.

Any suggestions? My only thought was to just see
how it goes next feed and hope he can latch on again...
But the chances of me sleeping whilst worryingvhim are a bit slim...!

HeffalumpsAndWoozles Tue 20-Nov-12 22:59:58

Hi Jims, Have you tried skin to skin to encourage him to feed? Even getting in the bath together can be helpful. I'm sure there'll be loads of good advice on here soon but didn't want to read and run.

Jims Tue 20-Nov-12 23:16:48

He's latching on, when not frantic, but not managing to get a let down other than a couple of times when he took about 6 sucks and came off again. My boobs are getting a bit sore so that and my stress is probably not helping

HeffalumpsAndWoozles Tue 20-Nov-12 23:58:29

Stress is a bastard because it impedes the let down, which makes you stress more etc etc. I imagine that's why skin contact works because its something else stimulating the let down and encouraging LO to keep feeding.

How are things now? Have you tried different positions? Is he falling asleep?

Doodlekitty Wed 21-Nov-12 00:01:25

Lave you considered contacting la leche league for advice? My ds had feeding issues (which unfortunately resulted in us having to go back onto hospital) and a lll advisor has pretty much saved us. If you search there is a 24 hour helpline

Jims Wed 21-Nov-12 02:15:42

I woke him to feed after a couple of hours asleep and he latched on and tool a boobfull - thank goodness! Will wake him again in 3 hours if he hasn't woken himself i think.

Thanks for the Lll tip, i didn't know their helpline was 24 hours

NervousAt20 Wed 21-Nov-12 02:26:28

Hi Jim' smile this is my first DC so not all of this is tried and tested but just advice that's been given to me, not sure if its good ect

The breast feeding women I spoke to said gave lots of skin to skin and also to take LO in the bath with me and lie her on my chest (so were both chest to chest) she said this is a position that should encourage her to search for a nipple and feed, if this takes a while then use a flannel or something to wet and out across DCs back to keep them warm

I struggle to express but the other day I was feeding DX on one side do pumped the other and hot 3oz off in 10min so I'd you wanted to pump you could maybe try that

My nipples get sore and I use lashion and that helps them heal quite quickly, have you thought about using nipple shields? I don't know anything about them but I've spoken to someone who said they helped alot when getting there LO to latch on as she could never get on enough

I'm sorry if its all useless but thought but could be witth a try x

Are you sure you're not worrying unduly about getting let-down? I know I can't feel a let-down half the time and I'm pretty sure I couldn't feel it at all in the first couple of months.

Jims Wed 21-Nov-12 05:38:55

He's definitely not swallowing which he has been doing until now. Having mjor issues latching him again now, he just pops on and off and won't stay in to suck properly sad

Welovecouscous Wed 21-Nov-12 05:54:24

Jims are you using a dummy or bottles with him?

Sometimes that can confuse very young babies and make it hard for them to suck at the breast as the physical movement and Flow rate are very different.

If you talk to LLL they will be able to give ideas. Phasing out dummy and bottles can help and lots of skin to skin time, feeding in the biological nurturing position (you can google this), feeding lying down and feeding while baby is sleepy also help.

Jims Wed 21-Nov-12 06:08:53

No dummies and no bottles. I wanted to get Bf edtablisged first. He has the 2 oz last night from a syringe. I'm eondering whether he's got a posterior TT although my husband says i'm just looking for problems. But he hadn't fed properly again for 4 hours now sad

Welovecouscous Wed 21-Nov-12 06:18:41

You sound like a very determined and well informed lady!

A couple of ideas between now and when you manage to speak to LLL. The clickiness suggests that the latch might not be right. Had anyone looked at the latch? There is info on the LLL site about how to get a nice deep latch.

When he comes off is he always upset or is he sometimes going to sleep at the breast?

Welovecouscous Wed 21-Nov-12 06:20:41

Are you still getting mw visits? If so can you ask for one this morning? alternatively is there a bf drop in you can go to this morning?

With a baby this age I think you need to get this problem sorted ASAP.

afterdinnerkiss Wed 21-Nov-12 06:47:49

in this stressfull situation where you are worried but intent on bf, could you maybe manage to lie down together all day/night till you have managed a good feed. you will be more relaxed and baby will free to latch on in peace, maybe nap in between, and latch on 10min later. wearing clothes that leave your chest free. and this makes for a very happy, snug, contented cuddled baby (i hope).

if you are worried about sleeping beside him you could remove the quit, put baby in a sleeping bag and dress yourself snugly /blanet round your legs.

(hugs OP) for managing so well and being so determined.

afterdinnerkiss Wed 21-Nov-12 07:12:23

quilt and blanket

Jims Wed 21-Nov-12 08:11:31

Sleeping next to him already smile

so this morning since trying after 5am, he's had a drink off 1 boob and i expressed off the other and gave him an oz from that. Kept 2 for next feed incase goes wrong again. Think he's still hungry as frantic but tired as latches and doesn't suck. Will let him have a little sleep. Have contacted specialist tt/bf clinic and hopefully they'll ring back soon.

I hate breastfeeding when it goes wrong but don't want to give up as it's so convenient and good for him when it goes right

Jims Wed 21-Nov-12 10:33:40

Still no joy. Had to syringe in another couple of oz but he barely woke. Am going to hospital bf clinic shortly and also have a LC consultant who may be able to see us tomorrow. Hate all this stress esp as baby v sleepy which is scaring me. On the plus side there was a v wet nappy this morning so something has gone in. How can it go from feeding fine at 4pm yesterday to this??!

Jims Wed 21-Nov-12 14:44:29

So now expressing after feeds as baby getting maybe one short let down and getting frustrated. But not getting muchbout. Is there anyone out there who's managed to come back from somethingblike this?

Welovecouscous Wed 21-Nov-12 14:49:43

Jims there have been posters on here who have fed for a good long while after initial difficulties. You will do it - just remember mums are some of the strongest people around - we have to be!

Just wanted to say you don't need to worry too much about how much comes out when you pump - it is not an indication of how much milk you have. Amounts vary with tiredness and according to how tense you are.

Glad you have lots of good help around you. If little one is only feeding for short periods I would keep offering often and gently keep baby awake if the feed is only moments. You can do breast compressions to keep milk flowing and baby actively feeding - if you google you will find instructions.

Welovecouscous Wed 21-Nov-12 14:52:43
Welovecouscous Wed 21-Nov-12 14:55:22
Welovecouscous Wed 21-Nov-12 14:55:49

Sorry for double post blush

AngelDog Thu 22-Nov-12 20:03:01

Yes, if you suspect a lip tie (and clicking makes me suspicious), I'd get him checked for tongue tie by someone who knows what they're talking about. Lip ties almost always go with posterior tongue ties. PTT is difficult to diagnose unless by someone with plenty of experience.

Biological nurturing positions may help you, as might feeding in the bath. Lots of skin to skin may help too.

Breast compressions (google Jack Newman breast compressions) are good for getting milk into a sleepy baby, or one who's at the breast but not really swallowing.

As PP said, expressing really isn't a good indicator of supply (article here on this).

Jims Thu 22-Nov-12 20:15:55

I've been trying to feed then express as much as poss today. He had some ok feeds but not since about 4pm again when i've resorted to ebm. Going to see ann dobson in london tomorrow and see whether there's a posterior tt. Just hope it's not too late to get my milk properly moving again if it was that. My DH is concerned more about me stressing though and thinks i'm just looking for problems. I just have an instinct things aren't right though

AngelDog Thu 22-Nov-12 21:12:00

Ah, Ann Dobson is supposed to be very good. smile

Definitely not too late to be able to recover supply.

I think it's important to listen to instincts telling you something isn't right. I thought something wasn't right with DS1's feeding - thought it might be thrush, then TT, but didn't know how to get help. Bf groups, GP and (to an extent) our paediatrician made me feel like I was a paranoid mother. Now at nearly 3 y.o. he's been identified as having poor tongue movement which is causing fairly significant speech problems. I suspect it's posterior TT and we're getting it assessed next week.

Welovecouscous Thu 22-Nov-12 21:33:03

Jims, Angel has given some really good advice already.

Two things really strike me from your posts so far - you are well informed and highly highly motivated to bf. I think your baby is very very lucky to have you as a mum.

Hopefully tomorrow you will get clarity on potential tt. I think you are dead right to follow your instinct - often mothers just know things and you are the expert on your own baby.

It will definitely not be too late to rescue supply. Keep going with the expressing - if you are pumping round the clock when not feeding then there will still be milk when the bf gets sorted. Someone on here managed to relactate even, when they were sorry they had given up bf. They couldn't fully bf but they continued giving some feeds for months iirc.

Please keep us posted.

thanks

AngelDog Thu 22-Nov-12 21:45:22

More ideas here from Kellymom.

Yes, even relactation from having completely stopped is possible (though hard work). Don't despair.

Jims Thu 22-Nov-12 23:13:28

Thanks. Will see how goes tomorrow. Even with strong desire to bf, v nearly threw in the towel several times today. My husband is lovely but still thinks i'm a bit crackers.. He's going to come with me tomorrow although that means bringing our 2.5ds as he's worried about me and the journey. There's a park opposite the clinic at least.

Biological position working a bit better at the moment... Well at least for the first side! Too sleepy for the second so top up time required. I really don't think he's had enough milk over the last 48 hours and has prob just had enough to sustain him and that's all. Maybe more top ups are requ...

I am hoping for either a small miracle or a reason why it's not working. Do wonder if i'm just looking for an excuse to give up so i don't feel too guilty. I

Jims Fri 23-Nov-12 21:08:57

So we made it to ann's clinic but fred having been ok this morning, had gone really unresponsive and floppy. I freaked out and took him to a&e in london. Where all his tests were initially clear, he had put on weight - poss due to the ebm i had given him this am - but they thought he was showing some signs of dehydration. So we've been admitted overnight.
But the blood tests actually didn't show he was particularly dehydrated. So we're in for observation and they're tube feeding him every 2 hours (so far ebm) incase it was that. Except they forgot his second feed and i ended up feeding him myself for a bit, much better than he has done in a while - little pest!! I'm glad he seems ok as i'd find it hard to forgive myself if i'd caused him to go hungry in an attempt to avoid formula

I'm just taking it as it comes now and if he ends up on formula so be it.

Never did get that assessment from ann! The prof here saw no signs of TT although i still think he shows some signs like a heart shaped tongue. Oh well.

Apologies for the stream of consciousness post, bit tired now.

AngelDog Fri 23-Nov-12 22:21:55

Oh, that sounds like a scary situation to have gone through.

Hope you get some sleep and that things improve.

thanks

Welovecouscous Fri 23-Nov-12 23:10:40

Oh Jims so sorry to hear you had such a horrible time today sad hoping they will give you the all clear tomorrow.

xx

Jims Sat 24-Nov-12 13:14:50

We're being allowed home. Just need to check in with hv next week. If he does have a posterior tt, it's been missed by the midwives, bf clinic at the hospital and the prof on the children's ward here who have all had a look. Save for that i think i'll just top up if he's not nursing effectively.

AngelDog Sat 24-Nov-12 21:04:00

Glad you're going home. Sadly it's possible for that many people to miss TT (there was a thread here about it, but hope that's not been the case for you.

Hope things improve.

Seriouslysleepdeprived Sat 24-Nov-12 22:27:16

Pleased all is ok smile.

Ann Dobson & Katie Fisher are both brilliant. I was 6 HCP before Katie sorted DS's TT. She was so lovely & helped us loads.

Jims Mon 26-Nov-12 14:44:26

We're back in hospital. Turns out fred had an infection. He'a not back on a nasal tube but bf and top ups. A bit sadly he only feeds properly from me at night and doesn't work for it in the day apparently preferring the bottle. Keep being told to see how it goes when he'a well but getting tired now. Bit sad

He also clicks when freedi g from the bottle. Hmm

AngelDog Mon 26-Nov-12 20:30:12

Poor love. sad

Clicking is one of the signs off TT, although I don't know if it can be caused by other things. TT can cause bottle feeding problems as well as bf ones.

Have you seen the Kellymom info on helping babies who are reluctant to bf? Here.

Seriouslysleepdeprived Tue 27-Nov-12 12:59:15

Sounds like you're having a rough time if it all. DS would feed much better at night with he's TT, the day feeds were always a battle.

Hope you make a speedy recovery smile

Jims Wed 28-Nov-12 13:58:51

Well the short version of a v long story is F has an appointment to have his newly diagnosed posterior TT snipped a week on friday at the hospital. Or i could have it done at home by ann dobson on monday but mybhusban is leas keen on that option. Why does a week of feeding and expressing seem a really long time though...!

It's manageable in hospital with nothing else to do but i'll have way less support next week.

AngelDog Wed 28-Nov-12 18:49:07

Great that you've got a diagnosis at last. smile

A week is indeed a very long time to wait - angry at your hospital.

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