I finished it in a matter of days (amazing what you can find the time to do even though you have a 4 month old when you really are engrossed in something!)and have quickly passed it on to a friend. A brilliant book, huge amount of knowledge in it, both political and historical, and actually quite a practical help with BF given the biological explanations of how BF works.

And of course I am utterly incensed to read about how the likes of Nestle still market their products. When I was a student in the early 1990s, everyone boycotted Nestle because of their tactics in the developing world (it was socially unacceptable to offer someone a fruit pastille and Findus Crispy pancakes were an ethical dilemma for penniless students who couldn't cook!)but I had heard that they had addressed this and it was no longer an issue. Also very, very frightening to read about what is actually in artificial milk (including the fact that it's not even sterile in powder form)and how the companies can please themselves about what they put in it.

I'm sadly reading this book. Spent a lot of the time in despair & disbelief, especially about the dumping of formula for disaster relief.

Very thought provoking book,very shocking in places. As a 2 pump owning mum with a fulltime job, I ended up feeling quite defensive about the part about expressing though. Pah, so much for feeling quite smug about exlusively BF my DS for 6 months and plans to continue pumping every working day until his 1st birthday...

Which lead me to thinking, are we all breastfeeders on this thread, smug or otherwise? Can this book actually change minds?

Hunker - it is quite shocking, isn't it. These huge international groups are put in charge of policing the world's health and telling everyone the "right" way to do everything.....but of course what is right is subjective. Shame on the people who airdropped powdered milk to "help" stressed mothers in disaster areas. Disgusting.

Thanks hunkermunker, very lazy of me not to have just googled and found that!

pinterandmartin I would also like to contact you, have an idea re Webchat. Could you PM me?

good idea - I'll have a look later on through the thread to find their email. (I'm a bit distracted by my 2 children at the mo)

It would be worth contacting P&M by email, I reckon.

hunkermunker - I just wish I could translate into a "larger" language, if you see what I mean. I can only reach speakers of Greek. Something like Spanish or French would reach far more people, but I am afraid my Spanish is very rudimentary!

APM, how wonderful!

pinterandmartin - if you are still watching this thread:

Which foreign languages are there plans to translate the book into?

Before I became a SAHM, I used to be a professional translator. I plan to translate some passages for my SIL and some friends (my SIL can understand very basic English but flounders with anything too complicated, this book would be beyond her). In my professional capacity I generally translated into English rather than the other way round, but I want to do something! I feel so helpless about the whole situation, and at least this is something I can do.

I shall take my translated passages along to the antenatal classes too (I am currently pregnant).

Any suggestions as to the most important/ best parts to translate? (I can't do the entire book!)

i believe gabrielle did a webchat or at least a q&a session on iwantmymum.com recently.

you m giht have to pay subscription to view though

I'd like to talk some more about this - anyone else?

The "Markets Are Not Created By God" chapter - about UNICEF and WHO arsing up bf and creating markets for infant formula, in particular.

Pinter & Martin, I am going to email you about something else - in the meantime, I will ask Mumsnet about the webchat, for sure!

hunkermunker and pinkfizzle We tried to get Gabrielle on a webchat, but apparently Mumsnet charge for that. Any other ideas who else might host it?

And you may be interested that we have Saggy Boobs and Other Breastfeeding Myths by Val Finigan and Lou Gardiner out now. The Facebook group is here and the Pinter & Martin page for it here.

Enough PR disguised as social networking now, I feel like I will be thrown out soon...

Martin

She'd be great for a live webchat, wouldn't she?

how cool to meet the author, maybe she should be an online guest on mumsnet?

I met Gabrielle Palmer a couple of weeks ago. She was lovely
The book is really fantastic, so thought provoking, though it has made me really angry at the baby milk companies.
With regards to what WE can do - Gabrielle Palmer said that normalising breastfeeding and writing to MPs or anyone in a position who might be interested and able to do something about some of the promotion would be a good place to start.

Thanks very much for the tip Kingrolo and you are 100% right - it isn't any of their business, I just could recall that they gave one of their friends a hard time when she was breastfeeding. X

pinkfizzle - you could try what I did and wear a vest under a top so you can pull your top down and the vest up (or vest down and top up, whatever works best!) creating a neat hole for your nipple. Your friends might not even notice you are feeding and if they do, well, they'll have to just put up. Why are they so negative? It's not really any of their business is it?

The book is fantastic, I'm about a third of the way through it now. But, like many of you, I am getting angrier as I read.

So glad this thread is still going.
banoffi lol at your mil offering to pay for a cleaner - how cool and heartening to hear!

Parenting is not the same as housekeeping and I wonder is sheer exhaustion is a reason for giving up bfing.
My sis was advised by her obstetrician to mix ff and bf when she was tired.
I've seen the tea towel covers over here!

As to modesty covers I think i will have to use some type of shawl I actually have anxiety about how some of girl friends will react and can't imagine bf in front of them, in the past I have heard them comment negatively about bfing.

Thanks for all the recommendations! :-)

Wasn't too bothered before about the sling to look into it but now quite keen to find something else that works not the HH! Baby bjorn is what I was given for baby number one and OK for carrying (though I've also heard it's not the best for that either as the weight shouldn't all be on the pelvis) but not at all designed for feeding.

I am getting closer and closer to the end of this book and get angrier and sadder all the time.

Sarraburd: look at naturalmamas as well. it is a UK based babywearing forum and they also have an active for sale or trade board where you can buy a pre-loved sling which will work out cheaper than new.

i favour wrap slings. most people seem to get on with stretchy wraps if they have a small new born and are not used to slings.

otoh some prefer ring slings or pouches. you can bf in all of them and the rather small learning curve is worth the trouble.

naturalmamas users love love talking slings so you won't bore them.

Book just arrived, am now going to have to wait for time to read! Can I just say that I have no problem flashing my boobs when feeding DS ANYWHERE but did try and rig up something for the first month or two simply to avoid soaking passers-by.. I was a veritable fountain.

Sarraburd - depends a bit on your size and boob position. Might be a Moby wrap or ring sling or a mei tai. I would check out www.thebabywearer.com and see what people are saying if they have your shape. You could even start a discussion thread and just pop back to check responses. Doesn't have to be hours of research.

Thanks so much for this thread, have ordered the book and looking forward to its arrival!

Someone gave me one of those Hooter Hiders for baby number three - I had no idea it was called that or I probably would never have used it on principal!!!! But I have to say that it is useful for certain situations. I have no problem feeding in public/answering door to delivery people with baby clamped to boob etc but if I'm going to be somewhere where I'm the guest and the hosts' feelings matter to me (eg, a wedding - lots of old people who never had people breastfeeding openly in their generation and not the time or place to try and change their minds) then I'm happy to cover up (I would never use it in the kiddies' bit of the park though or with other mothers - can't believe that the americans do that!). The hooter hider gadget is much better I think than a discreet scarf/muslin, as the baby can still see your face and you can maintain eye contact and talk to them. Also, it is very useful for feeding while walking along! With baby number three one can't just sit in feeding snuggling all day, one has to be out and about with the others. My baby bounces around so flashing is inevitable and I have to hold him on meaning its a bit complicated to manage it while walking along and a discreet scarf wouldn't work! I'm sure there are some slings where you can do a feed easily while walking along but I've got the baby bjorn and haven't had the time to research any others and in the meantime this combo works very well for me. Can anyone recommend a better sling though?

I didn't realise the hooter hider was an actual product, I thought it was just what Americans called a scarf or shawl. Horrendous! The fact that it's called a 'hooter' hider is sickening enough - surely breasts are only called hooters by 10 year old boys?

Totally get your point Foxy but until things change in society as a whole and women's breasts stop being presented purely as sexual objects some women will want to cover up.

As more women bf I suppose we'll see an increase in these 'indispensible, breast feeding must haves' in maternity and baby shops; pillows, pumps, bras, shawls and the like. Not to mention Annabel Karmel's range of breastfeeding ready meals and infused water.

hooter hider

pouch sling

i know what you mean kingrolo but the hooter hider runs the risk of telling mums that it is unacceptable to flash some breast in public in order to feed your baby and it confirms to bigots that breast feeding should be kept hidden away.

what is wrong with a pretty shawl or scarf for modesty?

I know what you mean about those 'hooter hiders' but if they make some women feel more comfortable feeding in public they are OK in my book, better than feeding in the toilets or not bfing at all.

*hooter hider*? I just googled that to find out if you were joking. To my horror you were not. What a sick world we live in....

about the American women with the tea towel thing.

In Abu Dhabi I spotted a mum under a gazebo with what I thought was a Hotsling pouch and being a sling wearer myself I beamed and strode over with crazy smile on my face.

As I got nearer, I slowly began to realise to my horror that it was a Hooter Hider in the same colour as the hotsling that Scary Spice once was photographed wearing.

There were thing chubby legs peeping out the bottom and I sat under the gazebo not knowing what to say as I was torn between laughing at this bizarre Mumsnet moment and feeling sorry for the poor baby. I said hi and other pleasantries to her but apart from that, the hooter hider just felt like an elephant in the room. (yes she was American)

the real sadness is that apart from us 2 women and babies, there was no one else around but our toddlers in this beautiful park on the sea front.

A week later in contrast, same park, same time of day 2 Emirati women sitting on a bench complete black Abayas and head scarves, one opens up her abaya, lifts her top to expose a whole boob and latches on a strapping toddler.

Who is the petition by? like to know these things before I sign 'em.

mrsgamp I totally agree with you - one of my NCT friends was adamant she would not bf because "everyone is telling me to do it" and I was also stunned by the think tank suggestion that ML is shared between partners - no mention at all of how that would really make bf difficult. The Government thinking is not joined up at all.

banoffi I am not familiar with the tea towel thingies American women wear and the very thought depresses me. Within months of getting bf sorted I was flashing my boobs accidentally whilst out and about and I didnt care one whit, which is the opposite of how I thought I would be. Bfing made me amazed and proud at how powerful womens bodies are but seems I am in the minority.

Like so many others here, I have been disturbed by reading this book and searching for ways to encouraging more mothers to b/f and make it the 'norm'.

Some years ago - before I had my own children and no real opinion/knowledge about feeding babies - I worked in a hospital with mothers and their newborns. Hardly any breastfed and if they did it was only very briefly. I frequently heard new mothers talk about the "breastfeeding nazis" on the labour wards and infer that, in some cases, not even attempting to b/f at all was almost an act of rebellion. I have often wondered since what would have made a difference to these women.

I agree with HaventSlept that there's a real fear of interfering with people's life choices, although, as Palmer says, "most women do not 'choose' how they feed their babies: they do what their culture and society expects". She also talks about how the 'benefits' of b/f-ing make it sound as though artificial feeding is normal and safe when the risks are never highlighted - just that breastfeeding is an extra advantage.

It is fantastic, of course, that women are entitled to maternity leave, but when I hear ideas such as the sharing of leave between both parents - separately - I am stunned that b/fing is not brought up as an argument against this! (Not that I've come across anyway).

Sorry if this makes no sense whatsoever!!

I have signed the petition sambo - thanks for the link.

One positive thing to do - and one which doesn't involve potentially offending friends - is to stop buying Nestle products. I think some student unions and possibly schools still ban them.

No way I can get to London on 20th July but I'll have a look at the blog and keep an eye out for anything local.

Message withdrawn

I know haventslept - I have just signed the one million campaign petition here and I want to spread the word but I'm worried about offending my friends some of whom ff and those who bf have stopped (our babies are 9/10MO). It's such an emotive issue, it's difficult to prosletyse without stepping on people's feelings.

Great thread.

I have just ordered the book from the Book depository (never knew it before so double discovery).

Just wondering how any of us "convinced" bf-ers can convince others to bf.

As a pp said, the ones who need convincing wouldn't touch the book.

I have started a thread before about this before (wanting advice about helping a friend who was using formula top-ups) and got a complete flaming from people telling me to mind my own business.

But can you really be aware of all the benefits of bf and the industry behind ff and NOT want to influence your friends just a little.

It feels WRONG not to.

finished it 2 weeks ago feeling very depressed and

what to do? And the situation in the US is so bad too - I feel like sending Barack Obama a copy of the book. It's awful to think so called 3rd world nations look to us and see ff and think, that's the thing to do.

We need a Minister for Breastfeeding at Westminster and the BBC should promote bf in all its programmes eg Eastenders. The government should advertise bf on TV to counter the artifical milk ads and all HVs and MWs need retraining (esp they stop telling bfing mothers to top up)

I've been inspired to search the web for how to take action and found this event : Breastfeeding Picnic in
Parliament Square on Monday July 20th, 2009, from noon 'till 3pm. Blog of the organiser here I invited my MP and he says he'll come along as his wife got lots of rude comments when bfing their ds.

Mine arrived today. Going to get reading...

Thanks Martin, look forward to reading it

There is an interview with Gabrielle Palmer at the Book Depository here
Martin

I just got mine, can't wait to read.

I just gave my copy to my HV to read - she's as passionate about BF as I am so we get to climb on our soap box together

dxx

Oh dear. I finished Politics last night and it all goes very gloomy at the end. Feeling decidedly glum now! What a lot of research, work and passion. I am just in awe of Gabrielle Palmer.

I'll review the book, definitely. I have become a fan on FB too, though I haven't actually read it yet! Still, shows how much I trust my fellow MNers. I know it will be good.

Pacific - your comment about men being 'fixers' reminds me of what I have just read in Dream Babies about the massive rise in advice books for new dads in the 90s and how they are marketed in a way which offers 'solutions' to problems, treating the baby like a little machine. There is a 'Babies for Dummies' which is set out like a guide for installing software and a Haynes style guide - they usually do guides on how to fix cars!

weasle This new edition is now also out in the US, and Australia, and we're hoping to license a few foreign language editions soon.
In the US it available from Amazon.com for example, and The Book Depository ship it for free to many countries.

And thanks for buying three copies!

yes pacific, it is the men from mars/women from venus thing i think, men want to provide a solution to a problem rather than empathise.

Martin, are there any plans to publish the book outside the UK? I am certainly trying to spread the word, I have bought 3 copies (so far...)!

Whoa, a good book, AND a free book thown in! I will definetely review it, thanks, Martin.

I like the idea of educating expectant fathers as much as the mothers. I think men (careful, gross generalisation coming up) being hardwired to be "fixers" very frequently tend to say "if you're tired, we'll give a bottle" rather than doing the nurturing "you're doing fine, it will pass etc". That certainly has been my experience as well, particularly with DS1 when the HV's advice was along the same lines. Clearly, both of us got better with increasing practice and experience.

I hope you don't find this posting from the publishers of The Politics of Breastfeeding too intrusive... I am really pleased that the new edition is going down so well!
We're a small company with limited resources, so I hope you don't mind me asking that if you like the new edition, please help spreading the word by reviewing it, blogging about it, telling your friends about it, or posting your comments here! Everything helps and is very much appreciated.
And if you review the new edition on Amazon.co.uk or other online retailers, you can even get a free book from Pinter & Martin (click here for details, sorry UK addresses only).
There is also a Facebook page for the book here, if you want to keep up with any news on the book.
Many thanks for your time!
Martin

my dh is not supportive of bf, and it has been the subject of many an argument. he is slowly coming round i think.

he has now given up asking me when i am going to stop bf (ds 18mo). i am going to see if he will read this book, would love him to, but he will say he is too busy i'm sure.

dawntigga, i think lots of my dh's encouragment to ff was because i had so little sleep for 15 months, and was so tired. i wanted someone supportive to say 'it will pass, you are doing such a good thing bf' etc, when what i got from dh, mum, mil etc was ' well if you are tired then ff'.

and they would all think they are pro-bf babieseverywhere!

I abandoned Dream babies half way through when my politics of bf book arrived, look forward to catching up with it and the GF/MN battle, didn't know that was in there.

Ordered both "Politics of Breastfeeding" and "Dream Babies".

Looking forward to reading them (and finally being able to show DH why he has to have Tesco "Malt Wheats" instead of "Shreddies" )

Well my mother also "professes to be pro bf," but that does not actually mean that they are truely supportive, despite their well meaning attitude.

By MrsMotMot
"Oh I detest that stupid humungous beaker of milk advert. Ugh!"
I know !!! I shout at the TV 'but the iron is breastmilk is more bioavailable and hence the better source of iron than any cow milk related product'

I must add that this book has made me feel ashamed of HCPs and recall things I did, was told to do or watched knowing they were wrong as a student mw. I can think of two abysmal situations in particular... <shudders>

Oh I detest that stupid humungous beaker of milk advert. Ugh!

dawntigga I think HCPs and ex-HCPs are sometimes the most resistant to changing their minds regarding bf. My SIL's mum used to be a children's nurse, then a HV and now works in management (i.e has been out of the 'clinical' side of things for many years).

Although she professes to be pro bf, has advised (pregnant) SIL to purchase bottles, teats and a steriliser and to have a tin of formula in the house 'just in case'. It is these sorts of things that subtly undermine bf confidence.

Kingrolo that's the SMA advert - another one which annoys me

dxx

Babieseverywhere - your DM is clearly mad. Ignore her .

I have almost finished reading Dream Babies, just got to the very interesting bit about Gina Ford suing MN a couple of years ago. I'd heartily recommend it.

I'm off to Amazon now to order Politics of Breastfeeding and I'm going to remind DH why we don't buy Nescafe. He's always sneakily putting it in the trolley when we shop and I'm always sneakily removing it. He's very supportive of me BF but only for the health benefits to DD and isn't really up on the political significance of it.

Which one is the Aptamil advert dawntigga? Is it the one about iron with the huge bottle of milk? I despise adverts for formula and think they often tread a very fine line legally in terms of what they can and cannot say about the 'benefits' of their products.

Thanks for this thread hunker, fantastic reading!

I'm very jealous of the people who's DH/P is very supportive. My DP thinks that a lot of the BF information is 'propaganda' his word not mine. If that's propaganda wtf is the advertising of not breastmilk products, I refuse to call it formula!

However, I do understand why he's concerned as I have a DS who doesn't understand he's supposed to feed in one go so I can get some sleep, although that's getting better now. He thinks that the odd night feed of not breastmilk product is ok to get me some sleep. Hopefully, now that DS is sleeping a lot more at night we won't have that argument every 2 weeks. The other fly in our ointment is that his mother use to be a school nurse and has a very dim view of hv's, my hv is absolutely supportive of exclusive bf. Unfortunately, once DP gets an idea in his head there is no shifting it. I choose my battles and this is one I'm not giving in on.

I'm going to make him read the book after I've offered it to my hv and the other mums at the baby cafe.

I'm looking forward to the follow on milk argument. When did follow on milk become appropriate for BF women and has anyone else seen the Aptamil advert? I've complained to the ASA about it as it makes the product look as good as BF which it isn't!

dxx

I too have a very supportive husband who is well versed in the importance of breastfeeding. I wonder if that is the key for many women. And if it would be more helpful to better engage expectant fathers on the issue. Information (where and when available) tends to be focussed at the expectant mother which may or may not be relayed to others. Perhaps a campaign to educate fathers first would help.

I have now just finished the book and it is very powerful. I am feeling very emotional about it! Anger, sadness and despair mainly!

How are we going to change anything? There are a few examples of good practice by countries in the book, but as she says, these are not valued by the 'global market' and i am aghast at some the actions against these things by the world bank and big business. i now understand the anti-globalisation campaigners' points of view.

I worry that the people who read this book are already 'the converted', mainly women who are bfc or interested in this issue. I hope there are some efforts to get the attention of mainstream media (i am not in UK currently).

babieseverywhere my mum is very unsuppportive too, and my mil. Latest is that i am selfish for bf as that prevents my mum 'sharing him' by putting ds2 to sleep for the 1 week/year that she visited us. And it has prevented my (very well bonded thank you) dh from bonding. All because bf is totally unnecessary, i was ff and am ok etc etc. <sigh>. She would never read this book which i think would help her understand where i am coming from.

I am now even more determined to do some more bf training to help in my local area. i am very sad that as an educated person in one of the richest countries i didn't get the help i needed to bf my ds1.

Anyone got any other ideas what i can do after reading this book? Join baby milk action? i already boycott nestle and buy as little stuff as possible.

*Hunker Munker* I really do appreciate how supportive my DH is. Like Babieseverywhere and MrsMotMot I have been reading my DH excerpts.

Also it is good to have a book with so much references to back it up. So much parenting advice and manuals seem to be opinion dressed up as a reality and it really can come across as bonkers.

Fascinating book, fascinating post, will post again soon.

I saw Dream Babies in my local bookshop yesterday, funnily enough. Feel another purchase coming on! And I'm joining Baby Milk Action as a result of reading this book.

I've not been met with disinterest, no- my DH too is receiving selected excerpts! My mum was aghast at the formula-designed hospital as well, appalling. My family are all very pro-bf and my siblings and I were bf (my mother wasn't, though) and DH and his siblings were all bf, as was his mum (quite unusual for the time/geography of where she's from). It makes such a huge difference if it is normal within your family network.

They all expect me to stop soon, though (DS is 7mo)! What is 'normal' only goes so far still...

My DH is getting an eduation whilst I read bits out to him whilst he drives. DH finds it as interesting as I do and we have had some good conversations.

On the other hand, my mother has been asking me about the book in a very negative way (I carry it with me, the only way I get chance to read it, in snatched moments)

My DM is determined to tell me how wrong it is FFS. Apparantly I can "not trsut everything that is written down" I have explained this is a world renowed author backed with good research not a badly written article in the Sun paper but that hold no water.

She told me that all third world people need is clean water and it is good that formula companies donate free powder in time of need. I explain that food for the mother is all that is needed and that breastfeeding would save more lives than ANY other measure including clean water, apparantly I am wrong. My DM is convinced that formula companies act for the good of babies and the pictures of starving older babies on the news show her <DM> that their mothers don't have enough milk. Sigh It is upsetting that she is allowed to tell me I am wrong with no backing evidence, yet when I tell her the facts she just states they are wrong !!! Argh. We will ave to agree to disagree (<again> and I might make a cover for my book ..LOL

elkiedee, Dream Babies is a great read, very interesting. I like the swaddled babies which you can hand on a nail near the fireplace !!! And all the stuff on early introduction to the potty (like I do)

Hunker, following on from your comments, have you come across the book Dream Babies on the history of parenting manuals? I bought it a few months ago and have only read about 20 pages but plan to get back to it next time I feel in the mood for a non fiction read but it's fascinating stuff. It also includes a lot of stuff on changes in attitudes to bf.

I have never even heard of it but have just ordered it on Amazon .

I am thinking about going on an ABM mother supporter course in the near future and this sounds really fascinating.

Am off to bed now, and have not read the whole thread. Thanks for starting it, Hunker. Have marked it to read tomorrow.

My copy has just arrived so I'm only just getting started but have already been at the formula company designed hospital!

Will be back to discuss when I've read a bit more, this thread has already made me want to get back to the book (in a good way because people have brought up interesting points not in an offensive, I'm out of here way!)

I am delighted to have found this thread!

I am about half way through this amazing book.

Has anyone else found themselves desperate to share with others what they've read, only to be met with total disinterest?

Incredible book. I am racing through it and will have to reread it again slowly. It's one of those I just want to make everyone read!

I'm finding the contraceptive factors of bf and its implications amazing. We hear so much about the contraceptive pill being the thing that separated sex from procreation and supposedly liberated us from the limitless drudgery of baby after baby. But it would appear from this book that pre industrialisation, women were not having zillions of children, because of bf. (Apart from the noblewomen who had to produce heirs)

So women were in control of their bodies and biological destinies, and, had this knowledge not been lost, eroded, and devalued, we wouldn't have 'needed' some doctors and drug companies to free us after all... it's so interesting!

What a lovely DH you have, Pinkfizzle!

I found the stuff about wet nursing fascinating - how it was once a respectable thing to do, how babies who'd been wet-nursed stayed in touch with their wet nurse for their whole lives - and the women who'd had their babies "swapped" at birth and how they bonded with the child they breastfed (but the mothers who hadn't breastfed seemingly just wanted their baby back - I'm paraphrasing, possibly clumsily!).

What I find so hard to understand is women who credit someone else with their efforts - so they talk about having a perfect "Gina baby", for instance - but scratch the surface and you'll find someone who's read a parenting book, taken the bits that work for them and ditched the rest as unworkable or plain bonkers - and won't then say "We do what works for us".

It's like we're so scrutinised and judged because everyone's got an opinion on parenting, generally informed by an ignorant article in the Daily Mail about how dreadful women are in general and especially when they've had a baby - so we have to hand over responsibility for the decisions we make to someone else.

Or something.

Agree with so many of the comments.

I am pg but I will not be surprised that once I have the baby if I find I get subtle pressure from friends to stop BF around 6 months.

My DH bought me this book as a surprise after I saw this post, and mentioned it, such a fascinating book and a great gift.

It really made me think just how uncomfortable culturally it can be for women to bf in the UK.

It also reinforced the consumerism of babies, all the product placements that you get bombarded with.

It made me realise that the protective power of breastfeeding is not promoted well enough.

I have just seen the Channel 4 tonight news on Somalia I have just seen images of what seemed to be a mother seemingly unable to bf, although the report pictures broke up on screen because of the thunder storms in london. Anyhow it got me thinking about the statement that during the west dafur famine in 84 and 85 infant mortality rates did not increase due to BF whereas other mortality rates -child and adult deaths did increase substantially.

I agree Weasle, it is so sad that there are so many malnourished people on this planet.

Agree with so many of the comments.

I am pg but I will not be surprised that once I have the baby if I find I get subtle pressure from friends to stop BF around 6 months.

My DH bought me this book as a surprise after I saw this post, and mentioned it, such a fascinating book and a great gift.

It really made me think just how uncomfortable culturally it can be for women to bf in the UK.

It also reinforced the consumerism of babies, all the product placements that you get bombarded with.

It made me realise that the protective power of breastfeeding is not promoted well enough.

I have just seen the Channel 4 tonight news on Somalia I have just seen images of what seemed to be a mother seemingly unable to bf, although the report pictures broke up on screen because of the thunder storms in london. Anyhow it got me thinking about the statement that during the west dafur famine in 84 and 85 infant mortality rates did not increase due to BF whereas other mortality rates -child and adult deaths did increase substantially.

I agree Weasle, it is so sad that there are so many malnourished people on this planet.

Weasle - I'm touting it to everyone I know also. Although with an 8 week old baby and a toddler I haven't had a chance to pick it up in almost two weeks.

I am totally loving this book. I cannot put it down! I am finding some bits a revelation, as i never thought of things in that way, for example about women being more autonomous before industrialisation and urban living.

Other bits I find sad, about babies dying unnecessarily because of well-meaning ignorance, or plain ignorance.

I want to make soooo many people read it (esp my family) to understand that actually in the scheme of the whole world i am not abnormal for breastfeeding a 18mo. i have bought copies for several friends (am currently in Australia and it is not published here, nor in the USA)

Gabrielle Palmer sounds fascinating. Am off to bed to read a bit more!

Tamba thanks for the link.

My local hospital stocked 2 types of formula - does anyone know if I can find out if it's subsidised under the freedom of information act?

dxx

Not yet but I've just got it from Amazon.

Will chip in when I've read some of it!

dxx

I've just finished reading it.

Kazbeth, she did acknowledge that hand expressing doesn't work for everyone. I found that bit quite interesting, I think I might ask our bf counsellor to show me how to do it again, in a few months when I have to think about whether I'm going to try to express at all when I return to work.

I noticed that picture mp, it's right at the end of the book so noticed it every time I flicked back to read the references.

I have FINALLY got mine, dunno why amazon took so long to deliver

have read about a chapter. Very good. Read the last edition a few years ago but this looks like a serious improvement.

Oh, that's great, MP! Yep, just found the pic - towards the end of the book - lovely! Reading the book, you get a sense of Gabrielle Palmer as someone who cares deeply and is generally a decent sort, definitely.

Wow cool! I will have to buy a copy and have a look. It was in the IBFAN calendar - Palmer sent me a lovely email asking if she could use it in her new book. She sounded very lovely indeed.

Yes, that photo is in there .. very agile

Ooh is the new edition out?

I think there is a photo that I took in there, of my friend breastfeeding her toddler upside-down

I've been reading this and one thing that bugged me was the emphaisis on hand expressing which she seemed to imply was easy and everyone should be doing it (assuming they want to express of course). I really struggled doing this despite being shown how. Mind you, I couldn't get much out of a pump either so maybe it's just me.

Isn't it rather sad though that nothing seems to have changed since this book was first published (haven't got to the end yet so assuming it hasn't).

<<pushes hoochie out of bed and clambers in with both>>
I have borrowed this book from my friend who is doing a community art project about breastfeeding. If you're in the right area you may even have been photographed with your norks out (with permission I hasten to add)
I'm hoping to get stuck in tomorrow

Don't get me started on Michelle. I think she's fabulous.

I would sleep with her or her husband

Actually, Hunker... One massive surprise advocate of breastfeeding is Sarah Palin! She breastfed her DC and pumped extensively. Not sure why that shocked me so much

Oh, good article! I'm yet to read anything about her I dislike - how fab to take her baby into an interview!

Hunker - I have wondered that soooo often!

I really don't think prescription-only formula is the answer - why put people who generally don't understand bf in charge of deciding which mothers can stop bfing? That way misogyny lies, I am afraid.

Unbranded, "best science we have, but without marketing bullshit" formula would be the best thing - for mothers who couldn't/won't bf for whatever reason and for their babies. Unfortunately, the formula market is worth billions annually, so that's v unlikely to happen - esp in this "big business runs Government" culture we have.

Talking of the US and the Code, I wonder if Michelle Obama bf her girls?

Reading the book has made me think that we aren't going to make much progress at making bf normal.
I reckon that unless you 1) come from a family/culture where bf is the norm 2) are prepared to put up with nonsense from others (poss inluding HVs etc) 3) have access to good support, successfully bf inf in this country is pretty tough.

I can't see how rates are going to improve while bf / ff is presented as a choice between two equal things. They just aren't the same and while no one wants to upset women who ff the huge desire not to upset them doesn't help improve bf rates. IMO.

Making formula prescription only would do the job but I can't see that happening. Using the term 'artificial feeding' in NHS leaflets and by HCPs would help too, I reckon.

All quite depressing really.

Just reading the section now on the code. How the US was initially involved and then wiggled out and started to undermine it. And I'm thinking wouldn't it be fabulous if Obama now announced the US was going to follow it.
I bought a copy of People magazine the other day and my jaw just dropped at the formula ads. One big pull-out with a huge photo of a newborn - 'strong babies start here', 'you take care of them on the outside and we'll do the inside' or something equally monstrous.

I was stunned by the stories of pockets of communities who had historically shunned breastfeeding. Really loved the stuff about 'it's not just the milk that counts'. And the comment on our Western industrialized view of parenting and the emphasis on a baby's 'independence'. Can we really ever expect to get to a 90+% bfing as long as we believe mothers who are attached to their babies are eccentric and babies should be self-reliant as soon as possible.

Anybody got any further with this?

Great post Tiger. I think the lack of confidence/instinctiveness is largely a product of the commercialisation of every area of parenting. First time parents excitedly buy parenting manuals they don't actually need and are undermined and dispirited when their baby does not fit the template. So they buy a different book and so on. I see this all too often. But that's another thread I suppose.

Tigermax, yes, that chimes with feelings I've had reading it. I think some women didn't know you were "allowed" to do things a certain way - I had a comment from an older family member I found incredibly sad when DS1 was a baby "I didn't know you were allowed to cuddle babies so much".

The stuff about immune response was fascinating - esp re transplant success being more likely between breastfed siblings.

Tigermax - i feel the same way you do.

Tamba - Thanks for the link.

I've got through the first 5 chapters and am loving this book. Not so much focusing on the outrageous facts about promotion of formula in third world, risks involved with soy-based formula etc. I'm feeling more saddened by the fact that somewhere along the line women have lost the desire, confidence or instincts to bring up our babies in a "primitive" way. As the book points out we are mammals - why do we find it necessary to challenge this? Why do we want it all (career, economic equality, expensive clothes etc) and at what cost to our children? Just look at the little KPC children highlighted in the book. Surely every little newborn deserves to be close to their mothers and fed from their mothers breast. I truely know that every mother wants to do what is best for their baby but I find it so hard to accept that some mothers put their babies in their own rooms from day one and ff without even trying to bf. I know plenty of healthy, happy, loved to bits children who were raised this way but it always makes me question the mothers who could bear to be parted from their babies when they are so tiny. How do you leave a baby that is soft, smells lovely and has strokeable angel hair? Does it feel right or is it only do-able because you have made a rational decision to parent in a certain way and this decision protects and shields your true feelings? I couldn't do it. I'm not saying I am a better mother but am I a more instinctual mother? A bit off topic maybe but these are my thoughts raised by the book so far....

Another way to help is to become a monitor for the WHO code. Abuses are still happening all over the place - not just in developing countries but in the UK right now. Just today I was looking at a magazine I bought in London (it was a US import but still) which contained advertising breaking a ton of rules. The Baby Milk Action folks need people on the ground to help them monitor what is going on especially people who have just been through maternity services and may have witnessed abuses.
And writing letters when messages are disappointing and copying it to mps, PCTS etc. For example, some registars are sending out materials with the birth certificate - envelopes with formula company logos on and vouchers.
http://www.babymilkaction.org/regs/viols.html

And if you feel really fired up and bfed for 6months why not consider training to be a breastfeeding counsellor or a peer supporter as a starting point?

Puzzle: yeah, her blood pressure was something like 240/130 or something very high. And yeah, the 6 week thing. Sad, innit?

The formula company sponsored/designed hospital made me too - so so blatant!

I almost finished with it.

It's great stuff.
My first big gasp was the thing about US Formula companies offering to cover the cost of an architect when a new hospital was being built so they could ensure hospital planning maximised mother/child separation and reduced likelihood of breastfeeding success e.g. baby nursery on different floors.

I don't think many people questioned their HV's back then. We are far more cynical now and rightly so.
Aah the 6 week thing. My mum's milk supposedly dried up at 6 weeks with her first four babies. By the her last pregnancy she had fantastic breastfeeding support and managed to feed my brother until he was a year old. It stills upsets her to this day.
And interestingly, though I may be over reaching here, my brother is significantly taller than the rest of us.

A stroke in utero. That must have been horrendous for your poor mother.

Puzzle: my poor mom didnt know any better, really, and believed what she was told by her HCPs at the time.

More heartbreaking than my soya formula (because i had no suck reflex because i'd had a stroke in utero) is my younger brother, who BF for 6 weeks, when mom claims her milk "mysteriously dried up." I wasn't there, but i'd bet dollars to doughnuts she hit the 6 week growth spurt and didn't know what it meant, and it being the late 70s, neither did anyone else.

MOAP, I think as you want to breastfeed this will certainly help motivate you for no 2. I never wanted to use formula but sadly ended up doing so with ds1 from 1 week and had to phase out top-ups forced on us by the hospital with ds2. This book certainly reinforced that feeling.

I'm not sure though that lending her this book is the best way to persuade your friend to give bf a try.

I've just ordered a copy from Amazon on the strength of this thread. I bf my DS until 7 months when (I thought) he gave up himself. He wouldn't take the breast at all (for 24 hours) but would take the bottle. I wish now I'd tried harder but we were on holiday at the time and he's always been quite slim so I was worried that he wasn't getting enough food.

I'm hoping this book will get me fired up for number 2. Also want to subtley lend to a friend who is pg and doesn't want to bf as she "doesn't like the idea of it"

That's what I want to work on PuzzleRocks, what to do?

I am boycotting Nestle, difficult after I became addicted to Milky Bars during my last trimester, but hardly earth-shattering in itself.

Sorry to hear that Leonie.
It's outrageous.

I don't want to simply read this book and be shocked though. What can I do to make a difference?

Puzzlerocks: i was fed soya formula, called Isomil, in the 70s. I stand here today with menstrual problems and thyroid problems that were unheard of in my family. I am the only one who has them, thanks to hormone overload.

And this book, omg i must go get a copy. And watch this thread. Thanks ladies!

Ah now breastpumps are far far better than hand expressing if you wish to MN at the same time!

Got the book, read first chapter!

I saw this on my friends bookshelf today so I may have to steal borrow it next time. Am still bf despite ds seemingly wanting to give up last week- he rapidly changed his mind yesterday so I am now trying to get my supply back up.

Read previous edition, have just had the new edition delivered from Amazon but it is in the queue behind my 800 page hardback Breastfeeding and Human Lactation by Jan Riordan so I dunno when I'll get round to it

I read this a couple of years back, but I might try to get a hold of the new version.

I was already aware of some of the issues after hanging about on MN for so long, but to read about it in greater detail really opened my eyes.

Oh, and the stuff about the composition of breastmilk not being the same when pumped as when fed directly - fascinating. There's already research that seems to demonstrate a link between obesity and bottlefeeding, whatever is in the bottle, after all.

Elkiedee, yes, I think there's a lot more to be said about breastpumps too - for instance, the manufacturers are often (always?) Code breakers. Mind you, Lansinoh is owned by a Code-breaking company too.

But yes, the "here is what you need in order to breastfeed" is one of the things that riled me so much about the Annabel Karmel thing - making bf sound overly complicated or like a specialist activity which is destined to fail if you don't eat a perfect diet and drink infused water(!).

So, yes, six million breastpumps sold annually when three million women initiate bf in the USA...

Why doesn't hand-expressing get more airtime? Because you don't need to buy hands, so there's nobody making money out of it? WHY do we allow ourselves to be marketed at so readily, why are we so anxious for the next device that will "solve" "problems" that we didn't even have until we were told they existed. The women who laughed when they were told that in Western countries, women read books about breastfeeding, like we might laugh at people who read books about blinking, or breathing - to think the West pities those women!

I wondered if someone was going to start this thread, I've reached the chapter on Wet Nursing.

I was particularly shocked by Chapter 7 on aid agencies and campaigns and the use of them by formula companies to sell more product.

Another bit which stood out for me personally was the bit on breast pumps in Chapter 6, though actually I think there's more to be said. The sales of breastpumps - twice as many a year in the US as women who start breastfeeding - is a really startling figure, and there's some mention of hand expression. Obviously breastpumps are very profitable - I recently noticed Mothercare selling a "breastfeeding starter kit" for £100 alongside the other feeding equipment.

Thanks for this thread. Been meaning to read this book for a while - this thread has inspired me to finally place an order with Amazon.

As i have mentioned before on MN, I was always aware of the politics surrounding breastfeeding as I grew up in Papua New Guinea, and thanks to the efforts of an incredible group called 'Susu Mama', bottles only became available on prescription.

Infant mortality rates nosedived.

Not sure why I said 'simple nutrition' there! I wish it was simple but it has become very un-simple!

I know what you mean about the shock of seeing it written. I think I was kind of aware in a fuzzy sort of way, or would have been if I'd thought about it. But yes, the thought of using precious fuel to try and make milk in conditions that you just can't get 'clean' enough is heartbreaking. I put clean in 's because I don't mean that people won't try to get stuff clean (as in germ free clean) but without the resources and education how can you? And they could have just bf'd And the powder's not sterile any way. I don't think everyone in this country realises that.

Also really interesting to read about bf as a method of family planning - child spacing, something that goes so much further than simple nutrition.

I have a horrible feeling that I may have caught the habbit of saying 'artificial feeding' and I hope I don't offend anyone. Much better term though!!

I read an earlier version of this book and found it hugely interesting and quite disturbing in places. I cried over the photo of the Indian woman with twin babies who had been told by her MIL she couldn't bf both - so bf the boy and gave formula to the girl. The boy thrived, looked fit and healthy, the girl looked like well - a concentration camp victim - no other description for it unfortunately. The girl died the day after the photo was taken apparently. We were talking about the book at my local LLL meeting and someone said that the photo in question was quite well known so perhaps others on here have seen it?

Agree with Hunker about formula feeding in t third world countries. I lived in The Gambia for a while and it would be impossible for most families to sterilize safely - no hot water, nowhere to boil water other than an open fire, nowhere to store bottles, difficult to even keep your hands properly clean, no detergent etc etc. There is cheaper formula available in Africa that costs about £3 a tin but it's basically Marvel with a bit of fat and sugar added. You could buy SMA out there in supermarkets but if I remember rightly (I used to buy it for DS1 who was mixed fed at the time) it was about £15 a tin.

I haven't read the latest version of this book as I ordered mine from the library but am definitely considering buying.

I have just read the part about soy based infant formula with my mouth open.
I only recently became aware of the potential hazards of phytoestrogens and it occurred to me that one of my nieces was given a particular infant formula exclusively from birth. Since she was a baby she has had hormone problems including excessive body hair, water retention, stomach cramps, mood swings, early onset of puberty inc. pubic hair and breast tissue at 7, menstruating at 9. The numerous consultants she has seen have never been able to offer a satisfactory explanation.
I assume it would be unwise to name the brand here but could anyone tell me where I can find a comprehensive ingredients list for popular formula milks. The company website doesn't provide much info.

OK, so some of the most thought-provoking stuff I've read so far has been around the use of bottles and the promotion of formula in Third World countries, where a tin of formula can cost more than is earnt in a month and that's WITHOUT the cost of the fuel to heat the water/sterilise the bottles. It's this last bit that I probably hadn't given much thought to - I knew formula was prohibitively expensive, I knew that it was often eked out to make a tub go further, I knew the instructions were often not printed in languages the people using it can read - but the mechanics of making it up as safely as possible - that hadn't figured as much in my thoughts as now.

I "knew" all this stuff already, but it's seeing it laid out, then seeing the cynical way the companies market their product - knowing babies will die because they aren't being breastfed - it beggars belief.

I'm planning on reading it as soon as I get hold of a copy, been wanting to read it for a while.

Me too! Have done the first couple of chapters and kept reading bits out to DH in bed. Have found it very emotive reading though, so have not been reading it lately as I've been exhausted!

Would love to discuss it though.

Just ordered it!

Marking my place! I am quite far through, but have been reading sleep-deprived for much of last week so I'm not sure how much I've taken in (which is fine - it means I'll get more out of it next time I read it, on the first reading I always rush books )

I have just finished the chapters about the Code of marketing.

Just finished it and would love to talk about it! (DH getting quite bored of quotes now!). It was very readable and angry making. Shocking how we have been duped into thinking that our lovely milk is somehow substandard or that it is wrong to bf. I was really horrified about the handing out of free samples - especially by aid agencies.

I think I read it too fast though, I'm going to re-read specific chapters again.

Yes I have read this. Inbetween dc. It had a real impact on the decisions I made with regard to feeding dd (2nd dc). I wish greatly I had read it before ds as I think he missed out due to my lack of knowledge.

I'm reading it too! Haven't got too far into it yet - the boys are keeping me busy.

Just started it and have found myself reading most of it aloud to DH.

I'm half way though mine

I have just started reading it, may take me a while but I will finish it!

I've just started chapter 3.
I'm so glad it's finally here, I ordered it in September.

I've just finished reading an earlier version, can I join in?

I read an earlier book on this about ten years ago and thought it was fantastic, but another good book is The Anthropology of Breastfeeding by Katherine Dettwyler. Even though it sounds academic it is easy to read and not dry. A lot of it is about industrialised society and male control of breast feeding. It also has lots of stuff on positive accounts of women in positions of seniority who have childcare in the workplace and breastfeed at work in Mali.

She has been involved in various campaigns and has acted as an expert witness in Northern America in court cases where ex husbands have tried to win sole custody on the basis that the mother breastfed a child over 1.

She has a site Katherinedettwyler.org

Do you know that she is speaking at ABM conference?

MD, I also can't believe I haven't read it until now.

But it is very nice to see all the stuff I've been banging on about for years laid out in book form, complete with photos and references

The parts about population control (I had NO idea Romania banned contraception and abortion and carried out obligatory pregnancy tests, for example) I am finding fascinating, also various things about the societies we in the West scorn for being primitive.

Amazon have copies

Hunker, I will discuyss it until the ows come home.
Can't believe you hven't read it until now?
It changed my life.

I've wanted to read this for ages. Who is stocking it now? Must get a copy.

I'm just reading the HIV chapter now. I'd already read the earlier edition and was in two minds whether to invest in the new one or not, glad I did as there's so much new information in there.

I'm also off to bed but will mark this thread for tomorrow!

Fabulous! Yes, I've been waiting for mine for ages, but it's been well worth the wait - I started a thread a while ago musing about the delay and the publisher posted to say Gabrielle Palmer had wanted to include the melamine contamination in China, etc, so that's why it took longer to be published.

Me. I am halfway though it, finally got it after being promised it for Christmas!

About to go to bed though. But I will gladly talk about it tomorrow

I'd like to talk about bits of it with people who are reading it/have read it/are interested in reading it/aren't currently interested in reading it, but will be once they've read the thread. And likely some other people too, but I haven't thought of their categories yet.