ooooh, it's handbags at dawn: Daisy Goodwin thinks we're vituperative...

(51 Posts)
LupusinaLlamasuit Sun 24-May-09 21:54:23

here

Ri-i-i-i-ight. As evidence of our, ahem, 'mean girl' status.

So. Let's just get this straight. One week, she writes a column, roundly denounced as nonsense on here, spouting, no, vituperating on the "Breastfeeding Gestapo".

Coupla weeks later, we are the ones who are being vicious.

Please. Sort your own issues out love, rather than doing damage to other women struggling to breastfeed.

Voltaire Sun 24-May-09 22:02:28

Lupus, Actually the baby feeding threads on Mumsnet can be deeply unpleasant. I agree with her.

TheCrackFox Sun 24-May-09 22:13:54

I saw that and decided that she needs to toughen up. She gets paid for her articles to be published and people have the right to disagree with her views. However, we do it for free.

fishie Sun 24-May-09 22:16:48

'rachel johnson is away'

LupusinaLlamasuit Sun 24-May-09 22:20:15

Oh I agree, I have seen viciousness on this board. There are one or two posters who are awful blunt in their BF, erm, 'support'.

I have to say I have seen far more viciousness mirroring exactly Daisy's views in her previous article from those who attack those giving BF advice and support on here and in RL.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sun 24-May-09 22:20:54

That was awful grammar. But you get my drift.

MrsMotMot Sun 24-May-09 22:52:13

There are ineed one or two posters on here who have exemplified the 'Gestapo' style bf support that Goodwin believes to be rampant.

However IME they are jumped on like a ton of bricks by other posters.

Far, far more prevalent are the 'nipples still sore at 6 weeks' 'what to do with ff baby on long haul fligt' 'nursing strike! help!' '5 mo won't take a bottle- advice please' etc etc and the advice and support here I think is outstanding.

We do periodically get threads where debates rage but the majority of posts are well thought out and intelligent.

I think Goodwin's statement in the Times makes out the board is just a lot of ff bashing; it's NOT.

And as for vituperative?! Pot. Kettle. Black!

AitchTwoOh Sun 24-May-09 23:00:33

that's pretty pathetic, daisy. just because you took a bashing a couple of weeks ago... hmm

tiktok Sun 24-May-09 23:38:03

If we are going to have a line up of who is the most vituperative in this folder, then I am sorry - the nastiest posts are not from people supporting breastfeeding, but from people being nasty about breastfeeding and breastfeeding supporters.

There is no equivalent put-down to 'breastfeeding brigade', or 'breastfeeding mafia' or 'breastfeeding nazis'.

People posting asking for support with their own feeding always get sympathetic and informed help, in my experience, whatever their question.

People who want an argument will also get what they want, too.

GivePeasAChance Mon 25-May-09 00:00:31

I don't know what vituperative means. Sounds good though.

Me neither.
Has she been reading people's blogs? That's not the forum. Or is she confusing the two...
I'm just generally confused

vi*tu*perative

It was only meant to highlight two bits!

vi tu per ative!

WhatWouldtheGoatDo Mon 25-May-09 08:09:32

can't read teh article atm, but when i was bfing mumsnet was fantastically supportive adn comforting.

as for the stuff about unpleasantness - lets face it mn can get unpleasant about anything - anyone fancy fighting about knitting?

JulesJules Mon 25-May-09 08:20:34

She is complaining about the lack of female solidarity, (in the Times) when she called women who offer breastfeeding support the gestapo? (in the Mail...)

Some people will write anything for cash, eh, Daisy?

Bucharest Mon 25-May-09 08:21:12

What Tiktok said.
Perceived nastiness is just that. In the mind of the beholder.
Not just here, (actually, compared to other parenting forums, rarely here) but all over both the internet and RL, there is nothing regarding parenting choices more likely to raise the hackles of those who do not share your choices, than that of the way you decide to feed your baby.

I've lost count of the amount of people on other forums to whom I've slipped a quiet message which says "go and ask on MN and wait for Tiktok to come and answer" <arselicky emoticon> MN has given invaluable support as far as I can see, and the posters whose opinions/words are worth listening to are always supportive of, or at least sympathetic to, alternative choices as well.

AbricotsSecs Mon 25-May-09 08:40:01

MN has been an amazing source of support for me wrt breastfeeding my dts - through reflux / milk intolerance hell and out the other side. It was mn (and lovely mners) that helped me 'fix' all the awful challenges. I remarked to dh just last night that I honestly don't think I would have got through without it!

Just wish I'd known about mn with ds1 - then I wouldn't have believed the tosh from the gp / hv about dairy not being passed through bm and worsening his ezcema!

Daisy Goodwin's hardly a card-carrying member of the Sisterhood, though, is she... No surprises here hmm

This thread (and another one running at the min) have really made me question this female solidarity issue.

I am a forthright, opinionated, intelligent but empathetic person. I never try to be deliberately provocative but I always give my honest opinion without resorting to personal attacks etc.

Recently this honesty in other posters has been attacked as being unhelpful and unsupportive. I'm wondering are we supposed to reign in our honest opinions and just meekly say "each to their own" and "there there" on all topics in the name of sisterhood??

For example, I believe breastfeeding is best for a baby. I understand and accept that some women genuinely have problems bfing and also that some women make an educated choice not to. But I also know there are women who don't even consider it because they think it's weird or hippyish/their breasts are sexual objects or because it's too much like hard work. I believe this is ignorant and odious.

It's not just breasfeeding, I'm very opinionated about lots of things grin

My question is, ma I supposed to agree with what I believe is wrong on mumsnet for fear of alienating another poster? Are we all meant to skip along holding hands and congratulating each other?

If this is the case then I've seriously misjudged mn and will reconsider my place here!

Up to now I have been labouring under the idea that mn was a place for informed debate and advice!

By the way I'm not trying to start a bun fight - I'm genuinely curious about this one.

mummyfuss Mon 25-May-09 08:46:34

There is no equivalent put-down to 'breastfeeding brigade', or 'breastfeeding mafia' or 'breastfeeding nazis'.

Morgan Gallagher refers to it as lactaphobia so I suppose that would make "lactaphobes" a put down for some!

LeninGrad Mon 25-May-09 08:51:40

For me, the point is to try and see beyond the immediate appearance of an opinion or belief and see where that came from and why. Once you understand that, then a good, reasonable debate can ensure. This assumes people want a good, reasonable debate of course!

Bfing is so tied up with cultural preconceptions about what breasts are for that it can be difficult to challenge 'ignorant' opinions without touching nerves and being accused of being dismissive of RL issues and concerns.

You just have to keep calmly picking away at the obvious misinformation and gently put some ideas out there that will be making people question their ideas, whether they admit publicly to that or that.

I don't like to see women pitched against other women either but you can't just be quiet for fear of rocking the boat and playing into the hands of the 'establishment' either. We'll find a way to disagree amicably with each other, and hopefully find some common ground, and then we can really start to tackle the root causes of some of these issues.

tiktok Mon 25-May-09 09:12:54

Re DG's mention of 'bloggers' on mumsnet, I think she is using the word 'blogger' to mean anyone who writes on the internet - 'posters' might not be instantly understood, though why she couldn't say 'contributors to mumsnet.com' I don't know.

Good post, Bunny. I don't agree with your judgement of people who think bf is hippyish or weird, as I think they may be the products of their own upbringing. I am also aware that people with a history of sexual abuse may have a particular distorted view of bodies.

But of course these views should be challenged, I think, especially if they are posted to a thread which is debating and discussing issues.

Some of us got very annoyed here - Daisy might even have said vituperative - because of some very, very stupid opinions about breastfeeding in front of some infant school children.

But anyone can point to any number of threads where people are asking for support and they will find it

(thanks, Bucharest, for arse-licking post )

AitchTwoOh Mon 25-May-09 09:15:24

i would be very careful to say 'born of ignorance' rather than ignorant, bunny, as the word has developed in meaning for a lot of people. and as for odious... well yes i do think you should rein that in tbh. i find your judgement of other people's decisions (without really knowing what informed them) pretty odious. it's all about cultural norms, and if your culture finds bfing icky then it's perfectly valid to be influenced by that.

tiktok Mon 25-May-09 09:18:42

LeninGrad, I agree about correcting misinfo, too.

Best to do it calmly, as well.

Mostly, this is done.

I do think some misinfo, when it comes from people who profess some professional expertise, and who dispense their wisdom like words from Mount Olympus, and who insist they are right, needs a total hatchet job, though Blood on carpet 'n' everything.

I think this happens about once every couple of years or so - I have tussled with someone who claimed to be a breastfeeding counsellor (she wasn't), someone who was a maternity nurse, and that's about it, I think.

LeninGrad Mon 25-May-09 09:21:03

Yes, I do have to make myself be calm on some things and have failed once or twice I must admit!

tiktok Mon 25-May-09 09:22:35

LeninGrad - hatchet jobs, when deserved, can still be administered calmly

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