Annabel Karmel, not content with making weaning sound complicated, has turned her hand to breastfeeding

(354 Posts)
hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 15:51:12

Words fail me

And yes, there are snippets in there that are true/useful - but HOW you dredge through the stuff that's unnecessary/nice to have but not essential - who knows?!

RealityIsMyOnlyDelusion Tue 19-May-09 15:53:05

Annabel Karmel, for example, is a twat.

notcitrus Tue 19-May-09 15:53:49

Strewth, that's put me off trying to bf and I've been doing it for 8 months!

Very glad I never saw a AK book until young A was eating with gusto!

RealityIsMyOnlyDelusion Tue 19-May-09 15:54:13

"Breastfeeding requires a lot of liquid and if you become dehydrated you'll feel tired and probably irritable or tearful too. Find out what to drink during the day. Try my recipes for Infused Waters to quench your thirst."

Oh, do fuck off AK.

FruitynNutty Tue 19-May-09 15:56:07

this is rubbish You can't gauge milk supply from a breast pump

hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 15:57:03

If she brings out a range of (incredibly expensive) breastfeeding drinks/foods for new mummies, I shall not be held responsible for my actions...

I have just read the section about low supply hmm total opposite to what I have read/been told.
I was told baby can get more than a pump so expressing not always a good indication of supply. Is that right???

McDreamy Tue 19-May-09 15:57:47

Who is Clare Byam Cook?

TotalChaos Tue 19-May-09 15:59:11

yes I spotted that one too about the Infused Waters! and PMSL at the breastfeeding recipes section. Some of this advice is merely silly and even I know some of it is pure cobblers (e.g. about how you should eat a fab balanced diet when bfing).

FruitynNutty Tue 19-May-09 15:59:37

exactly babyinthecorner

Well I can't open it so your curse has worked hunker

smellen Tue 19-May-09 16:03:19

Possibly the one area of having children that has not been commodified (if that is the right word), so ripe for someone to try and make a buck out of.

hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 16:05:05

I can't open it either now - wonder if MN has crashed the site?

TheCrackFox Tue 19-May-09 16:06:00

Does AK have any proper qualifications or did she attend the same university as "Dr" Gillian McKeith?

Alibabaandthe40nappies Tue 19-May-09 16:06:35

I can't believe she is allowed to pedal this crap, it's outrageous.

Poledra Tue 19-May-09 16:06:58

If I had gauged milk supply from what I could express, then I would have given up feeding all my babies. I can remember getting up in the morning with DD1 and milk would be dripping from my breasts. When I tried to express, I'd get 10-15 ml sad.

Fortunately, I was never told this crap, so fed DDs 1 and 2 to 12 months, and have every intention of doing so with DD3. grin

(BTW, cannot get into hunker's link, so am just going on what y'all have written here)

KayHarkerDoesNotSimper Tue 19-May-09 16:12:58

Oh, the for example, is a twat thing is making me laugh now whenever I see it. As part of MN folklore as fruitshoots and cod now.grin

hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 16:14:06
VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 16:14:19

She's a fuckwit, and if she had her way, women would be doing this to their breasts to make it more 'appealing' to babies. hmm

Makes me want to cry. Telling mothers than their supply can be gaged from expressing is irresponsible.

I exclusively breast fed by 75th centile DS for 23 weeks, but it took me half an hour to get an ounce (or if I was lucky, 2) out. He might have spent a long time at the breast, but I can be pretty sure he was more efficient than that!

Completely crazy. I'm assuming she hasn't gone out and done any BF counselor etc training if she's spouting this crap.

TheChewyToffeeMum Tue 19-May-09 16:16:11

breastfeeding recipes??? !!!!


VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 16:17:30

the terminology she uses is criminal, let along the content

AitchTwoOh Tue 19-May-09 16:19:16

lol, i got this in my inbox and thought 'well if this doesn't flush hunker out, i don't know what will...'

JeanPoole Tue 19-May-09 16:22:27

OMG that info about low supply is fucking disgraceful, alot of mother will stop bf because of damaging info like this.

hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 16:26:02

LOL Aitch grin

I'm horrendously busy atm (ironically doing decent, honest, ethical bf promotion stuff!), but this, this warranted A Thread!

mawbroon Tue 19-May-09 16:28:33

It is opening very slooooooowly on each page for me, so I only managed to look at 3 pages.

There is misleading shite on each of the three pages I have looked at.

phdlife Tue 19-May-09 16:30:07

lol at Reality grin

hiya hunker, longtome no see, mwah

think I better avoid reading AK nonsense atm hmm

TheCrackFox Tue 19-May-09 16:32:13

Clare Bryam Cook is recommending offering a top up feed after a breast feed. FFS, I am angry now. angry

wastingmyeducation Tue 19-May-09 16:33:30

Breastfeeding recipes?! I thought I'd read it wrong to start with, but then I'd just read a post on breast milk custard on the board.
Now that might be useful, unlike anything this nosy, ignorant corporation has to say. angry

tiktok Tue 19-May-09 16:34:33

Hmmmm....a quick look indicates that it's not all bad, though my taste is not for breastfeeding to be described as 'magical'. I accept tbis is just a personal thing though. But the advice in expressing is very poor - there is a page that suggests mothers concerned about supply suspend breastfededing, use bottles and then express to see how much milk they have made and subtract it from the bottles the baby has least that is what I understand it to say. This is just plain wrong and highly likely to mess up someone's bf.

dancingmummy Tue 19-May-09 16:36:50

" You can establish which it is by offering a top-up immediately after he has finished feeding on the breast; if he drinks some milk this shows that he wanted more than he got from the breast.

You should then immediately use your pump to see how much milk was left in the breast compared with how much he took from the bottle; if you can easily express the same amount your supply is fine and it is his feeding that is the problem. If you can’t express any milk, then your supply is low.

Another simple way of checking is to substitute several breast feeds with a bottle and then use the pump to see how much milk you can express at each feed compared with the amount he took from the bottle.

I think i'm going to write a book if you're allowed to simply make stuff up!!!
Chapter 1: Eating a healthy supply of chocolate is the only way to ensure that your milk is rich and calorific, thus-best for baby.

tiktok Tue 19-May-09 16:36:55

The advice to top up with a bottle of formula to check whether the baby had enough from the breast is very poor indeed.

Numerous posts on mumsnet show that this is a quick way to end up fully ff.

claireybee Tue 19-May-09 16:39:00

Bloody hell. Very angry about the expressing stuff, I've never been able to express much (other than when I has oversupply issues) but knew the dc were getting more than that

JeanPoole Tue 19-May-09 16:39:35

surely it must be illegal to give out such damaging info?

Poledra Tue 19-May-09 16:39:48

tiktok, I think you're being kind here - to say the advice on expressing is poor is an understatement!! I really am no bfeeding expert, just speaking from my own experience, but that would have killed my bfeeding of DD1 stone dead. Not only would I have been in a lot of pain from cracked nipples, but I would have believed I was starving her.sad I already had well-meaning relatives telling me that it wasn't the end of the world if I moved her onto a bottle - following 'expert' advice like this would have just finished it off.

Just goes to show, never believe what you read on t'internet.

thefortbuilder Tue 19-May-09 16:39:52

i never knew you could make beef lasagne and chicken and mange tout peas with breast milk hmm

JeanPoole Tue 19-May-09 16:41:22

poledra i totally agree.

PinkTulips Tue 19-May-09 16:46:25

that womans name brings me out in a rash. i wasn't a fan in the first place but after hearing her on gerry ryan slating blw as 'dangerous and irresponsible' and lying through her teeth about what it is to make it sound terrible to the listeners i see red whenever i hear her name or see one of her 200 million horrendous products angry

that stuff about expressing to gauge supply is truely awful advice, lets hope anyone who uses her site also has access to other information on bf-ing sad

this made me want to cry in the comments section.....''Eeeeeeeeek is all I'm saying!Without wanting to open a whole can of extremely wriggly worms again, it's stuff like this why if I had another I would go straight to bottle. I had major problems bf Finlay and even just reading the above is too much for my brain to handle and I'm way past that stage now. Such conflicting advice all the time, no wonder women get low'' sadsadsad

Alibabaandthe40nappies Tue 19-May-09 16:46:30

I am going to have to stop reading it, it's making me so angry. All that rubbish about a pump being the only way to tell if your breast is empty - WTF??

Does CBC realise that she is talking out of her backside? angry

LOL This had made me laugh. A bit angry that she is trying to make money on the basis of the myth that you need to have a healthy diet to bf.

It would have been better to say that although the bf baby will get what it needs, a healthy diet will help you to cope with life with a demanding newborn.

Perhaps someone could suggest she changes it!?

ThingOne Tue 19-May-09 16:49:06

ThingOne's Breastfeeding Website.

Have baby.
Take off clothes.
Put baby on chest.
Stay in bed for a fortnight with a slave to provide food and drink. A husband can do this job well.
If it doesn't work ask somebody who knows what they are talking about. Do not, under any circumstances seek advice from those trying to make a profit from feeding babies.

PinkTulips Tue 19-May-09 16:51:38

''The easiest way to tell if you have a fast or slow let down reflex is by using a breast pump. If you have a fast let-down, you will see your milk squirting out and you will be able to express your milk really quickly (eg.120mls in 10 minutes). If your let-down is slow, the milk will only drip out and after 10 minutes you might have expressed as little as 20mls. Having seen this, you will realise why some mothers can feed their babies much quicker than others.''


That's why ds2 damn near drowns at my right boob and i've sprayed milk up to 6 feet away when he lets go too suddenly but i have to practiaclly bruise my boob squeezing so hard for 1/2 hour to get 80ml then is it? hmm and using a pump gets even less milk, i can't pump leftie at all, not even a few drops and can barely ge any from rightie with the damn thing.... i have to be engorged to get it to work... [ouch]

claire byam cook has just been added to my 'hate' list i think.

and wtf is her obsession with freaking breast pumps... as if new moms don't have enough fiddly horrible things to be keeping clean and few enough hours in the day

MadamAnt Tue 19-May-09 16:56:17

Argh...I can't get on to it, but agree with those who have concerns about what sounds like v dodgy pumping info. My DCs only fed for literally 5 mins at a time (and not especially frequently) yet when I pumped I could only manage a couple of ounces. I would have been worried if I had been told that expressing was an indicator of milk supply.

Is someone going to contact her with a view to amending the info?

tiktok Tue 19-May-09 16:56:18

PinkTulips, that bit is really awful. 'Performance' on a pump is massively variable. Pumps are massively variable. I had a bfc colleague once who bf twins, and they were both fully bf at 6 mths. She was unable to express a drop - it just didn't happen for her. Both her twins were gi-normous.

Mothers have fragile confidence in bf, anyway. They do not need to judge themselves with a pump.

A pump is not a baby.

tiktok Tue 19-May-09 16:58:33

Clare Byam Cook reads mumsnet (I happen to know). So does AK. In any case, they both probably have Google alerts on their name. They will be aware of what's being said. Of course, someone can inform them direct as well

AitchTwoOh Tue 19-May-09 17:07:56

<waves to clare and annabel> coooooeeeeeee!

RealityIsMyOnlyDelusion Tue 19-May-09 17:09:28

Clare Byam Cook, for example, is a HUGE twat.



AK - sack the proofreader! "ingredients"
have only seen first page but "Breastfeeding offers a magical opportunity to develop a close, intimate bond with your new baby and gives him the best possible start to life"
or a practical way to feed your child?

and it does tend to imply that if you ff you can't bond!

EyeballsisonaDietAgain Tue 19-May-09 17:12:59

Well I was told that expressing is a good indicator of supply, and I managed to express about a centimetre the whole time. So dd was FF and I was a wreck. So she can fuck right off with her crap whitterings. Next time I'll ask you lot and increase my chances of a halfway helpful answer.

moondog Tue 19-May-09 17:14:08

Site won't come up for me.
Computer has obviously picked up on my Pavlovia response to mention of these charlatans' names, getting rich off people's anxieties.

'infused waters'

For fuck's sake

AitchTwoOh Tue 19-May-09 17:28:19

pavlovia? ooooh, i love pavlovia. make mine a nigella passionfruit.

PinkTulips Tue 19-May-09 17:34:24

dear god... i'm actually walking around the house muttering angrily about this angry

i've never felt so self doubting and fragile as when i was first attempting bf-ing and to have been given shocking advice like that would have completely destroyed bf-ing for me... i actually feel sick to think there are women out there who desperately want to bf and might read that, try and express and believe they have no milk at all to feed their child with sad

AitchTwoOh Tue 19-May-09 17:35:49

well the good thing is, i suppose, that most women don't come to AK until their kids are 6 mos.

wastingmyeducation Tue 19-May-09 17:41:12

So far Aitch. This could be a preliminary venture. She'll be bottling those 'infused waters'. angry

AbricotsSecs Tue 19-May-09 17:43:21

What a silly ill-informed twat. ARGH.

TheCrackFox Tue 19-May-09 17:46:00

It has put me in a bad mood too Pinktulips.

Only a matter of time before AK markets her own breast pumps, bottles, pads and nursing bras.

I could make bfing halos and sell them at £15 each! hmm

I could throw in a really disgusting free spinach drink recipe.


I could sell sample bottles for £30 plus p&p where women could express some milk into that would light up RED if not very good quality, and sparkly silver if okay and then sing 'Could it be magic!' at them!

I could sell the patents to AK?

hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 17:57:38

Oh, I do love you all.

Indignation certainly loves company, that's for sure! Thank you for keeping me company - and sorry for raising collective blood pressures!

(Tiktok, can you email me, please? Hunkermunker at gmail dot com TIA smile)

OlympedeGouges Tue 19-May-09 17:59:51

how did this woman get her career someone please tell me?

KingRolo Tue 19-May-09 18:00:12

I think her website has gone down. Could it caused by our collective wrath?

moondog Tue 19-May-09 20:07:06

What an absolute pair of tits both of them are.

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 20:14:11

Interesting that Clare Byam Cook reads MN.

choufleur Tue 19-May-09 20:22:21

the site is still down, i only got to the home page but it made be laugh (although not in a good way). it's just totally ridiculous.

my breast feeding recipes.

make huge vats of chilli, bolognase, curry, casserole etc while pregnant, freeze in plastic tubs and re-heat in microwave while sleep deprived and baby is asleep.

eat half the meal (leave the rest) as baby wakes up and needs feeding/changing/is bored/something that you can't figure out.

Drink loads of water (not infused with stuff). Water is fine on its own.

choufleur Tue 19-May-09 20:22:51

is it me or is the clock on here wrong?

catinthehat2 Tue 19-May-09 19:43:20

Do you know I'm fed up with this.

I have an old AK book which would have been passed over to the charity shop when I got round to it.

It's going in the bin now instead. The oxygen of publicity is officially exhausted.

Smellen has it:
"Possibly the one area of having children that has not been commodified (if that is the right word), so ripe for someone to try and make a buck out of. "


moondog Tue 19-May-09 19:47:15

Indeed Smellen is right.
Everything we can do for free is stolen, picked apart, repackaged and sold back to us.
Shame on these awful awful people.

That expressing to see how much left in breasts is complete shit.
How are they allowed to peddle such tripe?

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 19:56:08

She'll be publishing her own recipe for 'formula' milk next year

tiktok Tue 19-May-09 19:57:50

hunk - will try to email you....may not be tonight.

TheCrackFox Tue 19-May-09 19:59:46

Whilst I am on my high horse IMO her sodding purees led to DS1 being a total fuss pot. I BLW DS2 and he eats like a horse and will at least try anything.

I too will put her book in the bin and not take it to the charity shop.

hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 20:17:31

Cheers, Tiktok smile

elkiedee Tue 19-May-09 20:28:26

We had a bit of a discussion on here a few weeks ago when AK first announced CBC was going to answer questions on her site. I was quite surprised because AK posted in the forum on her own site responding to something I'd said on here.

Unfortunately someone else who was also critical of CBC asked some very good pointed questions to start off with and then got into a fight which made having a real debate there impossible.

We had a very interesting debate here on mn though!

morningpaper Tue 19-May-09 20:35:39

lol @ flushing out hunker

I read an interview with Annabel Karmel recently and was surprised that she still cooks her TEENAGE children "4 or 5 dishes for each meal, so they can choose"

I was all hmm

elkiedee Tue 19-May-09 20:36:07

On a more serious note, CBC is unfortunately not the only person who believes in pumping as a way to check supply - it's exactly that sort of thing from health care professionals which led to my ds1 being formula fed. It would have happened all over again if I hadn't learned (from mumsnet in fact) that other women have problems with expressing but can still bf successfully.

rubyslippers Tue 19-May-09 20:37:30

so AK has fussy eaters then

i saw her once on Saturday Kitchen making turkey meatballs which she burnt <<snigger>>

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 20:43:33

"I read an interview with Annabel Karmel recently and was surprised that she still cooks her TEENAGE children "4 or 5 dishes for each meal, so they can choose""

Does she mean a bowl of peas, a bowl of mash, a bowl of carrots, a plate of chicken nuggets and a plate of bread and butter? These authors are very good at overstating their efforts and reinventing things.....wink

MrsJamin Tue 19-May-09 20:48:31

TheCrackFox - totally agree with your (last but one) comment that AK is going to bring out her own breast pump in the next 12 months, I bet. It's tricky to see how else she can extend her market with just weaning especially now BLW is gaining apace. Please, can we stop AK spouting this rubbish about checking your supply by expressing? Total codswallop and dangerous.

AitchTwoOh Tue 19-May-09 21:09:21
smellen Tue 19-May-09 21:13:02

Oh vomit (with reference to Aitch's link).
Some people are so far up their own bottoms there's nothing left. Thank god my life is not a marketing campaign.

Poledra Tue 19-May-09 21:13:26

"We were chatting in the kitchen and I said, "It's good you've got all these recipes written down. Because when you're married, your wife will be able to cook the same food you had at home, and your children will be able to cook it and it will live on."

And wtf if the matter with him cooking the blardy meals himself for his no doubt long-suffering wife? DO you think she'll have an interfering MIL when it comes to raising the children???

thefortbuilder Tue 19-May-09 21:15:44

she'll be bringing out specially shaped bowls and containers for blw food....

no, more money in breast pumps if she carries on spouting this crap on her site

I too fell foul of the expressing as a measure of how much you are producing advice sad

AitchTwoOh Tue 19-May-09 21:19:58

she's no dummy. despite being a devout BLW denier her latest book is ... ta-dah!

liath Tue 19-May-09 21:22:59

She cooks 4 different meals and lets her kids choose?? I am gobsmaked! What a f*cking doormat.

PinkTulips Tue 19-May-09 21:24:09

thank you aitch.... i haven't laughed so hard in a while grin

how sad that she's so involved in her little baby food empire that she hasn't even taught her own kids to cook.....

she sounds pathetic quite honestly

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 21:27:34

She/her children are obviously victims of her own hype.

Do you think they were fed jars of AK food and ready/microwave meals as they were growing up?

morningpaper Tue 19-May-09 21:30:01

That interview is quite SAD isn't it?

She's raised a godawful boy who can't cook his own meals and rings her on his way home from university so she can have his dinner hot on the table


pigletmania Tue 19-May-09 21:33:05

What is Anna Karmel saying about bf is there a link anywhere.

CMOTdibbler Tue 19-May-09 21:36:14

Apart from everything else, what you can pump with different pumps is hugely variable - I pumped 5 days a week for a year with my Lactaline. Could do 240 ml in 15 min no problem. I also had an Avent pump. Never managed more than 10ml with that.

MrsPickles Tue 19-May-09 21:41:19

and in case you were really stuck as to what finger foods you could give your baby, SK's book makes suggestions such as

raw vegetables with dip [from the blurb]

no shit sherlock

hunkermunker Tue 19-May-09 21:41:19

In the OP< Piglet - but here too:

Funny, I thought CBC didn't like the walnut analogy...

"To begin with he will only take quite small amounts as his stomach is only about the size of a walnut but if your baby is allowed to feed as often as he wants he will be telling your breasts how much milk he needs." (in case it gets edited)

Interesting, eh?

theyoungvisiter Tue 19-May-09 21:42:07

Oh. My. God.

I am just. I can't. I mustn't.

I am gutted, HOW have I managed to bf for three years straight without doing a single breastfeeding recipe?

Will my breasts fall off due to dangerously low levels of beef lasagne? sad

Poledra Tue 19-May-09 21:44:08

True, CMOT - I always failed miserably with my handheld Avent pump. DD3 was in SCBU for 5 days after birth with an NGT, and I managed to pump up to 100 mls in 20 minutes with the hospital's industrial-strength Medela pumps (once my milk came in, of course smile). I'd forgotten about that till I saw your post.

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 21:49:12

Does it suggest toast as a finger food by any chance?

AitchTwoOh Tue 19-May-09 21:49:59

lolol at 'dangerously low levels of beef lasagne'

PinkTulips Tue 19-May-09 21:51:40

yes... hooray for the scary big electric medala pumps they have in scbu..... i felt like a dairy cow but by god it dragged the milk out of my boobs kicking and screaming grin

never had any luck with handheld pumps at all unless i was fit to burst from the engorgment in which case i find it as easy and less fiddly to just hand express.

mamaowl Tue 19-May-09 21:53:16

I had the unfortunate experience of having Clare Byam Cook come over to my house 3 days after I had my LO. 15 minutes later and 160 pounds poorer, I found out that I had no milk and should give my baby formula. (all this she determined from the pump). Luckily, I didn't listen to her and am still breast-feeding my DD 10 months on. She pretends to be an expert when in fact she has no idea what she is talking about. I hate her.

mummyfuss Tue 19-May-09 21:58:05

The thing to remember about CBC is she ff her children due to being a "duff milker". Whilst we all know she could genuinely be one of the tiny percentage of mums with a poor milk supply, it does suggest (imo) that she has a few personal (guilt)issues and there is a bit of projecting her own insecurities thing going on here.
Feel sorry for the woman and recycle her books is what I say.
I wonder what AK's bf background is?

Poledra Tue 19-May-09 21:58:37

PinkTulips, my DH arrived to visit one morning as I was expressing and the first I knew of it was when he went 'Moooooo!' over my shoulder. Luckily for him, DD3 was much better by this time and I was able to take a joke, rather than dissolving into a soggy heap of hormonal tears grin

theyoungvisiter Tue 19-May-09 21:59:58

thank you for your LOL Aitch grin

More seriously, how much of that advice is just WRONG WRONG WRONG, as oppose to stupid stupid stupid?

I really don't care what she says about arranging bits of haddock into smiley faces so little Foo Foo Trixibelle can hurl them onto the kitchen floor with a terrible oath, if people are silly enough to spend time on it, that's their lookout. That is, if you like, stupid advice.

But giving out advice like the stuff about expressing is dreadful, I know numerous women who simply can't express, and yet fed their children fine. And what does forcing a baby to take more milk from a bottle after he's finished his breast feed tell you, other than that you can force a baby to overfeed if you try hard enough?

It's preying on women at their most vulnerable.

Clearly there ain't no such thing as a free lunch these days, even if you are a fully breastfed baby.

moondog Tue 19-May-09 22:02:15

Lines like this from CBC's website get my thicko detector beeping madly

'Yesterday I spoke to one of London's top Consultant paediatricians.....'
Rather lkie people who describe themselves as 'fully qualified'.


snickersnack Tue 19-May-09 22:05:21

Lordy lordy. I was so baffled by dear Annabel's schedules and charts when I started weaning dd (diligently, by the book, PFB and all that) that I nearly stopped feeding her altogether. And I am a sensible woman with several degrees. I remember wailing to my mother "it's so complicated" and she looked baffled and said "just give the child some food". If Annabel had had a hand in my breastfeeding adventures, I may never have got beyond day 3 in my addled postnatal state.

VeniVidiVickiQV Tue 19-May-09 22:06:58

"By mamaowl on Tue 19-May-09 21:53:16
I had the unfortunate experience of having Clare Byam Cook come over to my house 3 days after I had my LO. 15 minutes later and 160 pounds poorer, I found out that I had no milk and should give my baby formula. (all this she determined from the pump). Luckily, I didn't listen to her and am still breast-feeding my DD 10 months on. She pretends to be an expert when in fact she has no idea what she is talking about. I hate her. "


theyoungvisiter Tue 19-May-09 22:07:04

there are some funny typos on that website - there's a special link for LETDOWN REFLUX.

Ooo, I thought, a special NEW kind of reflux!

Sadly, upon clicking, it turns out it's merely the letdown REFLEX. Same old same old.

PinkTulips Tue 19-May-09 22:09:12

poledra... poor dp had several hormonal sobbing nervous breakdown directed at him in the first few days of colostrum.... and i've bf two other kids so i knew there should only be a tiny bit and that was ok yet i still sobbed and worried!

i also cried at the social worker and waved a bottle with a measly few drops in it at her wailing 'they can't make me go home.... this is all the milk i have for him!'.... that however had the fortuitious effect of having her march down to the maternity ward and insist i be readdmitted for the night grin

Can't get the links to work but agree with general outrage. Smellen's use of the word 'commodification' to describe this bollo* is so apt.

What a pile of GHITE

HerBeatitudeLittleBella Tue 19-May-09 22:13:23

Breastfeeding recipes?

what a cunt

theyoungvisiter Tue 19-May-09 22:16:01

I have to go to bed, but I had to add this to the dubious advice (boldenings are mine)

How can I tell if he is not breastfeeding well?

Clare Byam-Cook says

If your baby is doing any of the following, he is not feeding well:-

* He keeps crying for a feed but then falls asleep after only a few sucks at the breast
* He becomes sleepy and listless and stops waking for feeds
* He is not passing much urine
* He is feeding for hours on end but never seems satisfied
* He wakes and starts crying every time you try to settle him in his own bed
* You can only stop him crying by cuddling him and / or taking him into bed with you

Now I am no expert, but I would say the last two at least CAN be perfectly normal for a baby of any age but particularly a newborn and are not necessarily any indicator at all of poor feeding. Which is not at all what CBC says/implies.

smellen Tue 19-May-09 22:16:02

Just read the CBC link ("the walnut debate"). Thank god I had never come across this woman when I BF DS1. How she can undermine breastfeeding mothers in this way is quite astonishing.

Re AK. Fellow MNers, Let's not mention firing portions of Chicken Karmel into occupied territories, could kick off a whole new round of litigation.

MamaHobgoblin Tue 19-May-09 22:16:15

lol at 'breastfeeding recipes'!

There is some good stuff there, but I agree it's all. so. complicated! Why make it such a faff?

BTW, the lovely Annabel is going to be a 'guest chef' (yup. That's what I thought) at the second Children's Food Festival which is held locally at Wittenham in Oxfordshire. I'm going because it's a local event and looks like fun (Annabel is not the only invited sleb!) but it'll be tempting to ask her about some of this, if I get the chance!

Must go now, I have a jug of water, mint leaves and gnat's piss infusing...

foxytocin Tue 19-May-09 22:20:03

2 things:

AK book cover. who needs a book to tell you how to make carrot and celery sticks?

Starlight: can i buy one of your breastfeeding halos? no to spinach recipe.

moondog Tue 19-May-09 22:21:04

Children's Food festival y'say?
I'm afariad my immediate reaction would be to boot anyone even thinking of attending such a thing up the arse.

MamaHobgoblin Tue 19-May-09 22:25:11

hmm Moondog. Sadly, my arse is far too well embedded into the sofa cushions for you to get a good aim.

Admitted, it's Wankiness objectified. But there's lots of free food, the children get to play with food and cook and stuff, and learn about where food comes from, and there're farm visits too. Aside from the wankiness, I don't see a problem.

Free food?


HerBeatitudeLittleBella Tue 19-May-09 22:28:47

ROFL at the idea of a children's food festival

Because children's food is so very different from adult's food

Yes. i think that is exactly my problem with AK. Its like kids should eat completely alien food from the rest of the family.


foxytocin Tue 19-May-09 22:31:15

lol lol
"my arse is far too well embedded into the sofa cushions for you to get a good aim."

MamaHobgoblin Tue 19-May-09 22:32:39

Oh go on, then. Here. Mock. You know you want to. grin

Not 'children's food' as in - 'special food just for children to eat', but as in 'food made interesting for children' (and not in AK's manner of making liddle faces with mashed salmon and peas, either!).
Still think it looks like an enjoyable day out.

foxytocin Tue 19-May-09 22:35:53

also telling someone that her baby is like the runt of the litter who the farmer would bottlefeed annoys me highly.

WTF?? angry

foxytocin Tue 19-May-09 22:38:16

they never have poncy food shows in my neck of the woods. more like big leek competitions.

wish i could come. looks exotic to me. grin

MamaHobgoblin Tue 19-May-09 22:38:41

Oh god, foxy, that particular quote has been bashed a lot on MN! I mean, does the mother in question have another 7 babies of identical age?? Stupid, misleading woman. Grrr. angry

MamaHobgoblin Tue 19-May-09 22:40:04

How big do the leeks get? <boggles>

We didn't go the first time (was probably pregnant or something) but it's only about 10 mins drive from us, so stupid not to go and have a nosey. And am looking forward to sniggering at AK!

moondog Tue 19-May-09 22:40:06

'Aside from the wankiness, I don't see a problem.'

But that is the problem, Mama!!
I know about this festival. That poncey kids' magazine I used to buy for some inexplicable reason, was always going on about it.

Twill be full of smug wealthy folk and thier dreadfully pampered offspring, thus reinforcing fallacy that good food is for posh people.

That is an added insult alongside the one AK peddles about special kids' food. Who the fuck buys or indeed even makes this stuff? Come to that, who makes anything from scratch? I honestly know very few people who do despite thier having lots of cookery books and watching cookery programmes.

If peopel can't be arsed to cook dfor themselves, I'm amazed they kid themselves they will for ungrateful brats.

In a way i kind of admire AK for cashing in on incredible stupidity of the great unwashed.
Do you think peopel just feel like better paretns for having broughgt the book?

foxytocin Tue 19-May-09 22:41:02

and postnatal me the first time round would have believed anything in my addled state.

foxytocin Tue 19-May-09 22:44:31
isittooearlyforgin Tue 19-May-09 22:45:52

could this thread be going the same way as Gina Ford one?

Read recently in newspaper that the wide variety of foods AK advised mums to be feeding babies were actually unhealthy for them as they bought on allegies, that we as kids were less likely to have had as hadn't been exposed to (ie Kiwi)

Still, my kids have less reason than some to be non allergy sufferers - all comes from feeding them baked beanns and sausages from day one ( nowhere near any of that disgusting M and S pasta shite)

wastingmyeducation Tue 19-May-09 22:46:01

What a pair! grin

Poledra Tue 19-May-09 22:46:17

Roffle Foxy!!

smellen Tue 19-May-09 22:47:55

Sadly I know lots of intelligent people, most of them washed, who did buy AK books, and even recommended them to me when I had DS1. I think a lot of the Baby-associated Industries play on people's fears of "doing it wrong" and so even pretty sane, rational people get suckered into buying stuff they don't really want or need.

FWIW I do cook from scatch, but not in a Tana-Ramsey-wannabe-aspirational-lifestyle way, just cause I quite enjoy it and like food. But I didn't need AK to tell me how to put smiley faces on my casseroles. (Give me Big Cook Ben anyday!)

moondog Tue 19-May-09 22:50:55

Yes Smellen, the fun and spontaneity and lack of self consciousness about doing it has gone out of the window.

MamaHobgoblin Tue 19-May-09 22:55:21

Blimey Foxy - it's not the length, it's the girth! shock

Am come over all faint and off to bed now...

CMOTdibbler Wed 20-May-09 08:58:14

Mamahobgoblin - I think I might go to that Food festival as my parents live just down the road. Maybe we can have a MNetters against w*nky food meeting

ThingOne Wed 20-May-09 13:35:05

I have a joyful snort at "chicken karmel". Today I shall offer my children "cottage pie ThingOne" and see if they eat more of it.

McDreamy Wed 20-May-09 13:49:30

Oooh I'm going to go, it's not far from me!

JulesJules Wed 20-May-09 14:14:13

What a load of crap. Am so angry about recommending expressing as a way of measuring bm to see if you have enough - I mean ffs

Was also amazed to see that you have to eat lots of red meat when you are breastfeeding. I'm a vegetarian, how on earth did I manage to bf the dds for a total of 5y6m?

Confidently expecting to see AK's range of breastfeeding drinks and red meat readymeals available at supermarkets soon, with AK branded breastpump, measuring from "Successful!" to "Unsuccessful - you must Top up with Formula!" Making money by telling people they need to buy something in order to bf successfully. I forsee another chapter in the next edition of "The Politics of Breastfeeding"...

Blimey, must stop ranting. grin

BCLass Wed 20-May-09 14:23:41

Hey JulesJules - can beat that - I am a vegan and strangely enough the lack of meat has never made a jot of difference!

BCLass Wed 20-May-09 14:28:53

tyv - I can't believe she says that!!! DD did 5&6 and we ended up co-sleeping which I love, but poor feeder? Not a chance!! Only lost 1oz of birthweight and back within 3 days and gained 11oz one week - not a poor feeder I think. But would not settle to sleep in own bed only comforted by contact.

I don't see how they are indications of poor feeding - indications of a poor understanding of babies and normal behaviour IMO.

BCLass Wed 20-May-09 14:41:04

_DH's breasteeding recipies_

Waffles and beans
Chips and veggie burgers (frozen)
Veggie bacon sandwich

Alternated ad nauseum as lunch and dinner for about 8 weeks till I got off the sofa and started cooking again......

Again, made not a jot of difference to my supply, which, though I say it myself, is magnificent, and is on the over supply end of the spectrum!

OMG - he could write a book, market it to vulnerable women who are desperete to breastfeed and make us a fortune!

weblette Wed 20-May-09 14:44:28

Actually I'm waiting for her next venture into money-making - how about in-utero nutrition.

theyoungvisiter Wed 20-May-09 16:21:23

BCLass - exactly, both my DSes fed like tiny suction pumps, gained weight hand over fist, never lost more than a few grams of their birthweight and pooed and peed for England.

Any issues I've had have usually been with over supply rather than under.

Yet both of them did their fair share of crying when newborn, rarely wanted to go down in their cots alone and frequently "fed for hours and seemed unsatisfied" (if "unsatisfied" means prepared to come off the boob).

Supply/feeding issues? No.
Normal shouty newborns who just want to be cuddled? yes smile

theyoungvisiter Wed 20-May-09 16:26:09

my breastfeeding recipes are:

Chocolate (specifically those extremely yummy gu tiffins which have lots of fat and calories important nutrients vital for breastfeeding)

Large bowls of pasta with extra cheese (which contains lots of fat and calories important nutrients vital for breastfeeding)

A chocolate digestive every morning to help combat dangerous night-time loss of fat and calories important nutrients vital for breastfeeding.

Icecream for pudding every night (which contains lots of fat and calories important nutrients vital for breastfeeding)

Can you tell why I haven't lost any weight of my important energy reserves? grin

PinkTulips Wed 20-May-09 18:47:44

pmsl TYV grin

Her instructions on how to get a good latch go pretty firmly against what I've been taught - she has the mother holding the baby's head (which tends to make the baby push back, and gets the baby feeding in a chin-down position, which is not good). She has the mother shaping her nipple and posting it into her baby's mouth.

Oh, and she says that if the baby is only sucking on the nipple, she'll be getting as much milk as she would from your finger. hmm

I mean, come on, we know sucking on just the nipple is not great, it hurts for one thing, but still, generally, some milk will come out!

PinkTulips Wed 20-May-09 20:31:00

much as i hate to defend clare whatername i have always had to shape my nipple to get a good latch.

my nipples are huge and not very pokey outy and if i let baby latch themselves they invariably get a very crooked latch and hurt like hell. i don't do the head holding but i do pinch my areola lightly between 2 fingers and offer it like that.

giraffesCantRunA10k Wed 20-May-09 20:36:20

I have never BF in my life and even I know that whats written on there is a load of shite, sadly some people will take it as fact angry

MarlaSinger Wed 20-May-09 20:43:31

They are both fucking stupid twats.

I do love the contradictions between the two of them though. Pair of knobs. CBC seems to hate babies and women.

traceface Wed 20-May-09 20:52:54

TYV your BF diet sounds very similar to mine - but I do add in the weekly occasional Macdonalds grin

Why do people have to complicate things so much? Ladies in every continent manage to BF without a recipe book!

Both my babies did the following:

* crying for a feed but then falls asleep after only a few sucks at the breast

* is feeding for hours on end but never seems satisfied

* wakes and starts crying every time you try to settle him in his own bed

* You can only stop him crying by cuddling him and / or taking him into bed with you

The first doubled his weight at 10 weeks, the second never lost any weight after the birth despite having had 2 feeds before she was even weighed.

And foxy as you'd expect, you can have a free halo!

SamJamsmum Thu 21-May-09 07:10:19

* wakes and starts crying every time you try to settle him in his own bed

* You can only stop him crying by cuddling him and / or taking him into bed with you

My baby did this while going from the 2nd to 75th percentile.

I had a very generous milk supply and also struggled to get a letdown while pumping. I would get perhaps 30mls. If I had followed this 'advice' I would unlikely to be breastfeeding today.

I really thought everyone knowledgeable about bfing with any experience of using pumps and supporting women to use pumps would know this advice to be dodgy. You just have to know a little bit about how a pump extracts differently from a baby e.g. that tongue/lower jaw wiggle that a pump can't reproduce that stimulates prolactin.

C B-C relies so much on bottles to 'solve problems' it's shocking and regularly inaccurate. A well-fed bf baby will still sometimes take a few mls from bottle at the end of a feed as the flow is so fast. It doesn't indicate starvation. It's amazing the human race is here at all by her account.

Bucharest Thu 21-May-09 07:14:31

I've always found AK acary....mainly because she maintains her own children chug liver back like it's chocolate and for her truly terrifying hair-do and Stepfordy glossy Dye-nasty style family photos. Now she's scary because of the rubbish she is spouting about breasts.

bambipie Thu 21-May-09 08:20:59

Breastfeeding recipes? How to make bf sound really off-putting. "You'll have to go to the trouble of cooking special food". And jugs of infused water, who can be bothered to do that with a new baby. Lunacy.
My recipe is CAKE.

Bucharest Thu 21-May-09 08:25:13

Yup. And hoooooooooooge family-sized packets of biscuits, perched on a chair, next to the sofa on which you're lying, and a boxed set of something like ER to while away the nursing hours.

Bucharest Thu 21-May-09 08:25:49

Anyway- any grown woman who refers to her husband in print as "Daddy" has a problem.

tiktok Thu 21-May-09 08:46:47

SamJamsMum, a well-fed breastfed baby will sometimes take quite large amounts from a bottle after a feed....more than just a few mls.

The bottle teat can give a 'super stimulus' to the baby's suck, and the baby will start to suck and swallow; babies who adore sucking will do it, because the teat is just there.

Of course a baby who's not well-fed will also take from the bottle.

It's quite wrong to suggest, as CBC does, that taking from a bottle is somehow diagnostic of overall inadequacy of breastfeeding.

pigletmania Thu 21-May-09 09:11:50

Well if you think that AK sprouts rubbish about breasts did you see the Apprentice last night and James philosophy on breastfeeding, that breastfeeding mums are happy. And that breasts have taps in them. Oh and when a woman gives birth the lid opens and a baby comes out. What a plank!

tiktok Thu 21-May-09 09:19:29

Saw it and laughed, too, pigletmania

Fortunately, James does not make a living writing for and advising parents on feeding issues

pigletmania Thu 21-May-09 09:23:36

What a idiot, he is funny though. No he doesent, i think that quite a lot of men think that way, not all know too much on a womans biology lol. I do have an AK book which i totally ignored. i am a first time mum and thought that if i got it i could cook my daughter nutricious food, well i know how to cook so just adapted what i normally cook to suit my daughter, who is just over 2 now. I have never heard of breastmilk recipies before, interesting stuff.

wasabipeanut Thu 21-May-09 09:27:43

I laughed at the recipes. What is the criteria for a breastfeeding recipe? The ability to cook it with an infant attached to ones boob?

PMSL at infused water.

Loved Jules idea of the AK branded breastpump and the unsuccessful and successful level on it. AK must be kicking herself for not already getting that baby to market.

theyoungvisiter Thu 21-May-09 13:30:35

I think a breastfeeding recipe (early days anyway) is one that you can bark to your husband from your easy chair in the living room while he slaves away, served up in triple portions, with extra cheese and icecream on the side, and eaten with one hand.

AitchTwoOh Thu 21-May-09 14:53:36

aw i thought he was just talking about how women can get a bit bunched-up with stressiness and find their let-down a bit tricky. poor sod. i actually thought he must be a nice, supportive husband tbh.

wastingmyeducation Thu 21-May-09 15:13:41

tyv - I made sure to show DH the spaghetti measuring device while pg, so there would be no excuse for him not to cook me something. grin (I don't use it btw, but he goes all incompetent when required to do anything out of the ordinary)

Poledra Thu 21-May-09 15:22:40

Aitch, so did I - I thought he said thst bfeeding mums had to be happy and that it was really important.

Bet he cried when his DC was (were?) born grin

AitchTwoOh Thu 21-May-09 15:38:59

anyway, bloody good show that he didn't just take the piss out of bfing imo, he could have done and the BBC would have gladly shown him doing it.

dorisbonkers Thu 21-May-09 15:54:47

I have recently arrived from Singapore to London in time to wean my 6-1/2 month old. I have been given or lent four of this woman's books (even though I said I planned to go straight to finger foods) and a brief glance told me she fits more in the GF mold.

Apart from the woeful expressing advice (which is incidentally the same in GF) and advice to introduce teats too early, there's rubbish about eating for the mother (I ate next to nothing after my section for three weeks). And this:

"Normal if a baby sometimes ‘cluster’ feeds (ie has lots of little feeds) at certain times of the day. This often happens in the evening when your supply might be a little bit low."

Doesn't that go against the whole way milk is made? Sorry if that is the case but I thought (and had been told on good authority) that this was wrong?

dawntigga Thu 21-May-09 16:05:37

Thank you everyone you made a very tired mum laugh a lot!

I pretty much agree with everything here and thought I was on my own thinking she's an idiot!

Tired smooches


elkiedee Thu 21-May-09 16:07:07

Doris, the woeful expressing advice comes from Clare Byam-Cook, who also works with Gina Ford. So it really is the same advice.

This thread is also being discussed on AK (they don't like us much!), though some of CB-C's advice has been criticised quite well by some AK regulars, to be fair.

PinkTulips Thu 21-May-09 16:17:14

dorisbonkers... cluster feeding is totally normal, especially in the evening but is actually due to the body producing more milky hormones at night. baby seems to sense this and feeds more, in turn triggering the production of lots more milk.

disclaimer this may be totally wrong but it's what the HCPs around here have been telling me. when i was discharged from scbu and had to stay at my parents overnight i was under strict orders to pump during the night, specifically between 2am and 5am as this is when the hormone levals peak and it would stimulate my supply hugely. i'm taking it as truth because it worked really well wink

Poledra Thu 21-May-09 16:27:49

Yes, PinkTulips, the circadian rhythm means that prolactin increases at night, in lactating and non-lactating women. Also, there is a greater increase in suckling-induced prolactin release in the afternoon than in the morning here

ruddynorah Thu 21-May-09 16:35:04

what i'd like to know is when will AK have those infused waters available in ready to buy bottles next to the frozen ready breastfeeding meals???? hmmmmm??? i think a line of breastfeeding snacks would be wise also. plus of course some specially designed utensils and bowls for feeding while you breastfeed. in fact, a special little cooker for heating your ready breastfeeding meals would be superb. i think this could really take off..

now my own personal bf recipe went something like this..

hot chocolate.

wastingmyeducation Thu 21-May-09 16:38:51

A hooter hider that doubles as a breastfeeding bib for eating your breastfeeding meals whilst protecting baby from crumbs?

ruddynorah Thu 21-May-09 16:40:57

hey now you're talking!

aurorec Thu 21-May-09 18:56:52

Surely this is the scariest quote?

4. A baby will always get more milk out of a breast than a pump.
Not true! Most good breast pumps are very effective at emptying a breast and will often do a far better job than a sleepy baby. I regularly express milk at the end of a feed when the baby won’t suck any more on the breast but is still hungry and unsettled - the baby will then take this milk from a bottle shock

PinkTulips Thu 21-May-09 19:21:54

see, i have to do the opposite, express and then get the bay to feed from that boob to properly empty it!

not really completely related but thought i'd share this story with you;

when ds2 was in scbu the consultant ordered nil by mouth as 'his irregular, too fast breathing means he is in danger of choking on the milk'. i begged and pleaded but he was insistant... no feeding. so on day two i started pumping frantically to up my supply while asking at hourly intervals 'can i feed him yet?'

that evening when the consultant went home he was still refusing to let me feed as 'it's too dangerous'. when the night nurses came on duty i went off to pump and when i came back ds2 was quite upset and irritable so they took him out of his incubator for me to cuddle... he was still a bit unsettled so one of the nurses said 'you just pumped didn't you? sure stick him on then seeing as your boobs are empty and let him comfort suck wink' and walked off!

ds2 had a great little feed and they called me every time he woke after that to feed himgrin

nest day the consultant was trying to use the excuse of 'he's not even able to feed yet' as an excuse for some other absurdity and was told by the nurses 'actually he's been feeding just fine since last night doctor'..... i really wish i'd had a camera to take a snap of his face grin

BCLass Thu 21-May-09 19:22:09

Ha! I can only get milk out when dd is sleepy! It's the only time she concentrates!

Allegrogirl Thu 21-May-09 20:04:47

I was advised to pump 'to increase supply' just one week after dd was born. Bloody MW. I then bought CBC's book in desperation which just made me feel a lot worse. Baby had lost close to 10% of weight due to jaundice and my inexperience. However she gained slowly and never lost apart from the first 4-5 days. I wasted precious time when I should've been asleep in fits of tears attached to a bloody breast pump. It's utter bollocks that a pump can get what a baby can. I was lucky to pump an oz but dd went from 2nd to 25th centile in month.

The ideas peddled by these charlatans took me to the brink of PND when there wasn't ANY problem with my milk.

A box of Thorntons and Midsomer Murders are all that is required for a happy afternoon of nursing, and who cares if it takes an hour.

I quite liked AK's baby recipe book as long as you don't follow it as gospel. She does look annoyingly smug though.

mrspooh Fri 22-May-09 19:57:16

well i'm going to be brave and say i love AK!!!!!!!!!!!!
im about to start cooking her recipes to wean ds having followed her puree guides which have been fab. having lost a 6th of my blood following an emergency c-sec, i had to have iron tablets daily for a month and was advised to eat food to build up my iron supplies. following the link i read her recipes for breast feeding etc, lasagne one is to help boost iron stores, whats so wrong with that??? yes the infusion stuff looks a little mad but the citrus one is just a posh friut juice, buy a smoothie for something similar if you want. like all advice you can take it or leave it and you all have left it. nothing wrong with that at all. am somewhat surprised at how vicious the comments have been though, oh well.

AitchTwoOh Fri 22-May-09 20:21:18

have you actually started weaning yet? smile

elkiedee Fri 22-May-09 20:38:07

AK has put another interesting post on her forum, referring to CBC's expert advice as just one point of view. ce-ak-site-5.html

elkiedee Fri 22-May-09 20:38:50

AK has put another interesting post on her forum, referring to CBC's expert advice as just one point of view. ce-ak-site-5.html

FairMidden Fri 22-May-09 20:39:55

Following an email exchange with one of AK's lackeys, where I complained about the totally potty advice and suggested they get the section reviewed by one of the BFing organisations, the woman herself sent me this today:

Many thanks for your email and comments that you sent to Laura.

In tracking and monitoring feedback on our breastfeeding content, it is clear that there has been a wide mix of responses, some positive and expressing gratitude and others raising questions about certain aspects of the information provided or adding further points.

Our aim is to provide a wide resource for our members and breastfeeding advice is the start of an exciting new launch on our site – The Expert Panel. We had initially hoped to be able to engage a panel of experts from different disciplines to provide as wide a range of views as possible but in the event time was against us and we decided that, in keeping with the timing of Breastfeeding Awareness week. We made a judgement to go ahead with Clare's content to mark this important week.

We value your feedback and acknowledge the need to cover as wide a range of views on each topic and will incorporate this in our future content planning. The content is currently being reviewed in the light of feedback, but just to ensure members are aware that Clare’s content is just one point of view - we are posting a note to this effect.

Have a fabulous bank holiday weekend

Best wishes

Annabel Karmel

I get the impression I may not have been the only one to complain to her website grin

FairMidden Fri 22-May-09 20:42:23

You mean she didn't personally pen this little spiel, just for moi? [wails and wrings hands] grin

Not much of a come down but at least the woman has the grace to realise she's published nonsense on her website.

FairMidden Fri 22-May-09 20:44:04

Also, the BFing section on her website is down now. Not sure of the significance of this.

fruitstick Fri 22-May-09 20:51:58

I ate 6 hot cross buns yesterday, and have begun to drink full fat coke for the first time in my life.

These things make me so angry. I could rant on for days about the number of friends I have who say they couldn't breastfeed because they didn't have enough milk. This is based on various books saying babies should feed every 3 hours and settle to sleep on their own.

no they shouldn't!

blueshoes Fri 22-May-09 21:58:59

I only clicked into one link.

UTTER TOSH - myths and facts about expressing

Maybe her next plan is to bring out a cookbook using breastmilk as an ingredient. Hence this unnatural obsession with expressing.

elkiedee Fri 22-May-09 22:06:10

Well done FairMidden - the wording of her email to you has also been posted on the thread I was referring to.

"Tracking and monitoring feedback" = furiously self-Googling grin

chipmonkey Fri 22-May-09 22:44:00

I have a recipe using breastmilk! grin
I used to make Breastmilk rice pudding with Strawberry puree for ds3 as he wouldn't drink from a bottle and I was expressing in work and I was damned if I wasn't going to get him to take it one way or another!

littleladybug Fri 22-May-09 23:39:34

Have you seen the edited advice? I posted it on the AK thread. Still pish, but a little better. If that area is down it means it is being reviewed or edited. Thank fcuk for that...

hunkermunker Sat 23-May-09 00:17:00

LOL at this thread making the round-up - and GOOD that AK's been doing a bit of vanity googling grin

elkiedee Sat 23-May-09 08:45:43

Well done Ladybug for pointing out the shortcomings of the advice on AK's own site forum. That probably makes a lot more difference to people who find AK's site a comfy place to hang out than us bitching here.

foxytocin Sat 23-May-09 08:55:37

i was given a hand me down and a new AK weaning book when dd1 was born.

this was a child that at no solids till she was 13 months old. I

is it norty to admit that i was quietly pleased by the turn of events on one hand because AK made weaning sound like hard work!

DD2 currently doing BLW and I just hand her bit of stuff off my plate, well what she doesn't rob, and I only worry about whether the stain will come out in the wash. grin

PinkTulips Sat 23-May-09 11:42:33

foxy... they don't sad

i'm having to buy all clothes for ds2 new from 6-9 months upwards as there isn't a single item that survived ds1's blw antics!

although i was dabbling in eco friendly detergents at the time which probably didn't help.... nuking the lot with ariel this time round grin

tiktok Sun 24-May-09 17:55:50

It's good that AK appears to have listened and agreed to check the info over - she will not want her reputation affected by poor advice.

It makes me uncomfortable to see poor information represented as 'one person's opinion' though. There are some things which are unarguably correct about the way the body makes milk, and some things which are incorrect. You have to understand the biology of it all first before you can have an 'opinion' on anything, and the biology of breastfeeding is that the pump is not a good tool to assess breastfeeding effectiveness. A baby who is not feeding very well may remove less than the pump; a baby who is feeding well may remove more. In any case, babies may remove more, or less, milk at any one time, according to appetite. It just doesn't make sense to judge someone's breastfeeding with the use of a pump

I've said before on mumsnet that CBC probably does help some women breastfeed, and that some women may welcome an approach that tells them to use formula when bf is not going well, rather than a counselling approach which is less directive.

But whatever her approach, the very basic facts need to be correct, and in the original text anyway, they just weren't.

chipmonkey Sun 24-May-09 22:05:07

I am glad that she has changed things on the site

TBH, I know a lot of people on MN don't like AK and prefer BLW but I do think she has helped people in general to see that baby food jars are not the best or only way to feed a baby. And some of her family oriented recipes are really very good and ds3 DID prefer his canneloni when it had heads and feet and looked like seven little people in bed and it took 5 minutes more to do, that's all!grin

But fgs why make bfing complicated? Mammals have managed to bf for millions of years without resorting to "infusions"

Oh god the BLW stains - I'm washing at 60 degrees for the first time in my life and she's still filthy (but at least I know she's only going to wear anything until the next meal and then we change again)!

chipmonkey Sun 24-May-09 23:15:16

Line-drying in the sun is great for stains.

AitchTwoOh Mon 25-May-09 10:59:03

i agree chip, moving away from a reliance on jars can only be a good thing.

PinkTulips Mon 25-May-09 15:01:59

lol... ds1 blw in the midst of winter... an irish winter at that so the sun was nowhere to be seen.

ds2 will be starting blw in sept so i'm hoping we have a bit of an indian summer and i can dump him half naked out in the garden to mess eat grin

i agree to a certain extent that moving away from jars being seen as a staple of child feeding is a good thing, however i feel AK has complicated things to the point of putting alot of people off making their own.... when i purree fed dd i purreed up our dinner alot of the time and fed it to her.... mothers of young babies have enugh on their plates without being made to feel they have to cook entire batches of food seperate from the family meals just for baby.
i think her methods often serve to intimidate those who aren't great cooks or who don't have alot of time into thinking 'proper' food for babies is complicated and difficult when i fact either by blw or by purreeing the family meal it can be remarkably simple to include a baby in the family's eating habits

chipmonkey Mon 25-May-09 15:36:40

I do have some friends though, who never so much as boiled an egg in their lives before they had children, lived on eating out, takeaways or freezer food and AK was the first cookbook they had ever bought! I think it can be good for people who want to do better by their children than they have done for themselves. Not so much for people who were food purists to start with.

Debs75 Mon 25-May-09 15:48:42

Not read all the thread but she is trying to make money from the one thing that is totally free. Breastfeeding doesn't require anything that you have to specifically buy so is a marketers/producers nightmare. How can they have millions of babies every year not drinking their productsshock Cow and Gate must be loving it when they hear some misguided mw or hv has put a bf off so the mum is turning to ff.
AK is just trying to make money where there is really no way to. It is the same reason she doesn't like blw because it is relatively free and simple, no stocking up on her latest organic baby foods or buying a cookbook when you already know what you are doing

elkiedee Mon 25-May-09 22:24:54

I actually think baby led weaning and trying to have meals that can be shared with a baby/toddler also work well for parents who haven't really made the effort to cook before. It's simpler to buy fruit and vegetables and to eg boil/steam veg where needed, and it's encouraged us to sit down and eat proper food more often.

chipmonkey Mon 25-May-09 23:39:48

I do see your point, elkiedee but have to say, I personally prefer a chinese ( with the western addition of a portion of chips!grin) to steamed fish and broccoli. Old habits die hard, especially the bad ones!

wastingmyeducation Tue 26-May-09 09:10:05

SIL bought an AK cookbook, but bought jars as 'it's impossible to get it smooth enough yourself.' I definitely think it puts people off!

powerkitty Tue 26-May-09 15:48:18

I find all of this personal attack a bit depressing to be honest. Surely all that AK is doing is writing books and producing products.
As a parent you don't have to buy in to what she does but I don't think that she should be attacked either.
I think that her books are great. I have two really fussy eaters and through her books I have been encouraged to try new things with them.
OK so the results are not always great but at least i am trying.
I see the breast feeding content on her site as her trying to extend the information that she is offering. Why does there always have to be some hidden agenda?

HullabaLuLu Tue 26-May-09 16:02:05

But the information she is offering is poor and undermines bf. I think making bf info accessible is great but it also needs to be correct. The stuff on pumping would have had me quitting bf in the first few weeks. I expressed to see how much I had and got less than one oz. I cried all night and posted on here the next day. Still bf at 4 months now but I wouldn't have done so had I come across the info on AK's site.

HullabaLuLu Tue 26-May-09 16:08:56

If purees and meals for fussy children is her strength then why bother adding info on bf (if she doesn't know enough about to be sure the info is sound)?

I suspect the reason for adding bf info to her site is to get mums/customers looking at it sooner. BLW must be a threat but if new mums browse AK's site for bf advice its a comfortble next step to look for weaning advice there too (and she does have a vested interest there).

If they look for bf advice elsewhere like MN for example, they may decide to wean their children in a way which is decidely less profitable to AK.

I may just be a bit cynical though.

gabygirl Tue 26-May-09 16:25:44

"I find all of this personal attack a bit depressing to be honest. Surely all that AK is doing is writing books and producing products"

Yes - all she's doing is making a HUGE amount of money from publishing information which may damage women's chances of breastfeeding their babies. hmm

Seriously - it's completely unethical.

massivebump Tue 26-May-09 16:59:58

The word BUNKUM springs to mind grin. Where did she get this pants from? I used to like her cook books but think she's gone totally bonkers in recent years with her over priced baby blenders & baby foods etc etc!!

Where on earth did she get this nonsense about expressing to see how much milk is left grin. It's absolute rubbish. To say that only a very 'few' women can't express in bollocks!! Most bf Mum's I know have said they can't seem to express, I was always the 'abnormal' one who was able to express oodles of milk. I'd like to see where she'd done her research, what a laugh.

I feel sorry for the Mums who will read this twoddle & take it as the word of god angry

GONE RIGHT OFF AK!!!!!!! Am just off to calm down a bit now

massivebump Tue 26-May-09 17:09:33

In fact, I felt so strongly that I've just used the 'contact' button on her website to state my feelings! Will be interesting to see what she says if I get a reply (she says she'd like feedback positive or negative).

Haven't read all your posts yet so maybe someone's already done this?

I'll keep you posted

gussymooloo Tue 26-May-09 19:55:44

I think the Breast feeding info is just a small part of several different specialist topics if you read the home page (i think) a sleep expert and allergy expert are also anwsering questions and providing info, so i dont think AK is branching into selling bfing merchendise (sp) she is just offering people a chance to get questions answered if they want.

wastingmyeducation Tue 26-May-09 20:07:23

But the information is wrong, gussy. That's the main problem here.

totalmisfit Tue 26-May-09 20:32:07

using a breastpump was about the most time-consuming and draining thing i did when dd was a baby, hours and hours of 'squelch, squelch, nothing, nothing...oh, ffs...nothing...nothing...squelch...nothing...'

i am not going near one of the damn things this time around.

that website is kinda unethical, really.....never bought into her crap anyway....phew

gussymooloo Tue 26-May-09 20:37:30

Why is it unethical?

because it's crap advice is potentially detrimental to a mum trying to bf......

gussymooloo Tue 26-May-09 20:42:26

What advice is so crap? They have edited the expressing advice stating that all mums cant express so it may not be the best way for everyone...

some of the other advice ive found helpful, im just wondering what is crap?

CherryChoc Tue 26-May-09 21:17:19

The advice about having to eat healthily and avoid stress to produce good quality milk is incorrect -

Quote: If you are rushing around the chances are that you will not produce sufficient milk and its possible that your baby will not thrive. This is incorrect information and may make mothers feel worried they are starving their baby, compelling them to introduce top-up feeds which can compromise breastfeeding.

The expressing advice and information has been changed

The advice about foremilk and hindmilk is a bit dodgy, I think, but I'm not sure -

Quote: <feeding from both breasts> is not necessary and can lead to the baby taking too much foremilk from each breast and not enough hind milk.

However I have a feeling this is from a different section of the website than is being discussed on this thread as I can't see any CBC references. And actually as bad bf advice goes the things I've mentioned in this post aren't the worst in the world.

MatNanPlus Tue 26-May-09 21:21:27

I have 'cared'm for 3 post CBC advice/visit mum's who were left in a heap, she went as far as to tell one mum that "if she was a dairy cow she would have neen shot" and it cost her £200 to be told that!!

Needless to say we worked at it and mum was soon feeding her ds 100% from source.

She told another mum tandem feeding (which was going well) was dangerous in front of astounded Portland Midwifes!!!

gussymooloo Tue 26-May-09 21:23:06

Thanyou Cherrychoc.

Ive found I am mega thirsty and always hungry since BFing anyway, so im sure my body has naturally increased my fluid and calorie intake! although i was poorly when DD was 4months old and didnt eat/drink for 48hrs and my milk did go down she certainly wasnt as satisfied with it lol.

It certainly isnt the worst bfing advice ive seen, and was wondering if im missing something obvious!

ilovealgreen Tue 26-May-09 21:41:07

Oh Purlease!!!

Surely we just all eat DONUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Donuts and cups of tea tra la la.

CherryChoc Tue 26-May-09 23:18:56

Oh actually have just looked at the link in the first post and yes, a lot of the information on there is very hmm, especially about expressing.

gussy, but not all mums are more hungry, etc....I mean by her theories basically mums in the 3rd world should be unable to bf, which is rubbish...

thing is, people will go oin that website not knowing what is correct and what is myth, and that is where the problem lies....and the unethical part is, that they are marketing bf to make money....I suppose....which means they are not going to be obective, are they...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 08:34:34

Arhh but if she promotes a healthy eating diet is that bad? her recipies are free of the website, and if it helps people be more food aware and healthier isnt that a good thing? especially in this age where obesity is so profound!

I know many mums bf without good diets, and yes third world countries manage it well consisdering but we do have the skills and resourses to eat better, so im all for someone who promotes a healthy diet.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 08:39:46

also isnt it the WHO who recommend an increased nurtient/calorie diet whilst bfing? for optimum milk supply.

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 08:54:44

Don't think so.

CherryChoc Wed 27-May-09 08:57:52

No, it's not bad to promote healthy eating at all - but it could be worded better IMO, ie, your body will make good quality milk whatever you eat, but all mums (or everybody) benefit from a healthy diet as it will make you more alert, resilient to colds etc - especially important when lack of sleep is an issue as you will be more run down. But really in those early days you just need to eat, not worry about what you are eating and whether it's healthy or balanced! It's too easy when your baby is tiny to go the whole day on a mouthful of tea (before it went cold) and maybe two slices of cold unbuttered toast (which you stuck in the toaster in a second when they weren't crying). And (if you have lovely friends) chocolate grin.

My health visitor said when my baby was 4 months old that he wasn't gaining weight quickly enough and asked if I was rushing about and forgetting to eat lunch or breakfast (I was missing both blush) and insinuated that my milk wouldn't be enough for him if I wasn't eating and I ought to give him baby rice. I am angry I was told this because it wasn't true! I'm sure lots of mums are told similar or come to their own conclusions and begin to use top-up feeds.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 09:46:22

theres some info in this who document about increased need for calories

powerkitty Wed 27-May-09 10:52:48

I think that any of you who care to get off your bandwagons will find that there has always been bf information on AK's site.

All she has done here is used someone else to supply the content. CBC may be controversial with her methods and I have to say that i don't agree with what she is saying but I really think that all of this personal attack of AK is out of order.
CBC has her own website and a best selling book - so the AK site can hardly be accused of being 'out there' with its content now can it?
There are plenty of places where her 'advice' can be found by mums.

I agree with gussymooloo, if you actually take the time to look the site you will see that this is just the start of a series of experts that are adding content - giving their opinion on their own 'expert' subject.

The real truth here is that no matter how we all feel about it CBC has helped mums to feed. We don't know the ins and outs of those circumstances and so should not be so scathing.

I find it very depressing that a group of 'friendly mums' can turn so readily into a lynch mob. The attacks on AK have been personal and completely unnecessary.
If you don't like what she does - simply don't buy her books. But lay off the insults - it is childish.

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 11:09:09

powerkitty, she is putting out bad information, and as responsible members of society, we care about that.

There may be mums who CBC has helped, but there are undoubtedly mums who have been put off feeding by her poor advice.

The advice on pumping by CBC, on AKs website is incorrect and damaging. Shame on them both.

gussy, thing is she only promotes her brand really....doesn't she...which is why she doesn't really care if the advice she gives is all correct....indeed, anyone wihtout the knowledge shouldn't really give it out, certainly not under the veil of proffessionism....

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 12:09:40

Fair lady, her website is full of easy to cook recipies, yes you can buy stuff for weaning if you want, but as far as cooking goes they are healthy recipies for free?? im really not seeing the issue.... her baby recipes arent just for babies either they are just normal cooked from scratch foods which unfortunately in this day and age people cant cook or dont have the time to... and yes when they start weaning they start learning to cook...

i think its positive, you can get her books out the libiary and off the website for free, so no shes not all about money or promoting her own brand... Jamie Oliver has more "merchandise" to buy at alot more money..

There is another expert advising on bfing aswell on the site, but no mention of her advise? there are links to all different bfing charities and websites for more info, and tbh alot of the info is standard practise is it not? it seems that people have a downer on the whole thing because they dont like CBC, sorry if im wrong.

the problem is, that whilst a lot of those shitey myths are being spread, by all and sundry, doesn't make them anymore factual right...but, if this info is wrapped up as part of a proffessional package, then myths become harmful, because they seem so much more believable....
if people want to promote bf and give advise they should make sure it is factually right...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 12:19:00

Have you looked at the updated site?

Whats soooo bad with the information?

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 12:59:42

And on the unicef website theres alot of info about bfing mums healthy diet and how they are promoting this in third world countries.. wow its facinating reading

direct quote:

"If your baby is unsettled and is not gaining the right amount of weight, he is not getting enough milk and you need to find out whether this is because your supply is low or because he is not sucking well enough to get all the milk out. You can establish which it is by offering a top-up immediately after he has finished feeding on the breast; if he drinks some milk this shows that he wanted more than he got from the breast. You could use a breast pump to see how much milk was left in the breast compared with how much he took from the bottle. If you can easily express the same amount your supply is fine and it is his feeding that is the problem. In this case, you need to check whether he is latched on correctly and staying awake for long enough to take a full feed. If you can’t express any milk, then your supply is almost certainly low.

If you are still struggling then a simple way of checking is to substitute several breast feeds with a bottle and then use the pump to see how much milk you can express at each feed compared with the amount he took from the bottle."

Now, I am not saying I know all there is to know...but the above is tosh and detrimental and will lead to a mum loosing confidence in her supply....
just one example...

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 13:07:10

gussy, the mum's diet will affect her own health, not the quality of the milk.

oh and this is Mythsbusting on that website hmm:
"4. A baby will always get more milk out of a breast than a pump.
Not true! Most good breast pumps are very effective at emptying a breast and will often do a far better job than a sleepy baby. I regularly express milk at the end of a feed when the baby won’t suck any more on the breast but is still hungry and unsettled - the baby will then take this milk from a bottle.

5. If you can’t express any milk, your breasts must be empty.
This is generally correct. A pump normally gives a pretty good indication of your milk supply: the more milk you can express, the more you have; the less milk you express, the less you have. But if you are one of the very few mothers can never express any milk (even before a feed when you know your breasts are full), using a pump to see how much milk is in your breasts is clearly not an option."

Both points rubbish, no...???

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 13:21:01

Ive already said that the expressing bit was dodgy, they have added abit to it now saying that some women cant get milk by pumping..

buts its not cut and dry is it? that does happen to be true for some women... btw im not saying thats the best advice but its certainly not the worst ive heard...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 13:22:40

Thats just as important Wastingmyeduation, twas my point

well...but it's kinda sad to say, well, because t isn't the worst it doesn't still cold make life harder for a desperate Breastfeeding mum....and that does matter...

on the Healthy Diet thing...well...I suppose that theoretically every human being would benefit from that, it's not exclusive to breastfeeding, is it....thing is, as a bf mum you do not necessarily eat more, because whilst you do need more calories to bf, well, most women do sort of accumulate some fat (naturally) throughout pg , which, than, theoretically should be burned off when bf grin not that that always works....

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 13:25:33

You said for optimum supply earlier.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 13:29:16

yes a healthy mum makes an optimum supply of milk, never mentioned the quality of milk

FairMidden Wed 27-May-09 13:32:03

It's nonsense, FairLady, I agree. I don't think "personal attacks" are unfair in this context - it's AK's website and so she's responsible for the information it contains. CBC is a loon but that's a side issue.

Incorrect or inaccurate information is bad, of course, but the trouble with the BF info on the website is that it is potentially harmful. And AK is in a position of responsibility because as a brand she is possibly seen as an "expert" by some mums and therefore there's likely to be an assumption that information she promotes is correct.

Personally the last place I would go for BFing advice would be a profit-making organisation, but let's be honest here - many mums won't think like that and will be quite confident that the crap advice to be had on AK's site (possibly in conjunction with the "suggestions" they've had from family, friends or less-than-knowledgeable HCPs) is correct. They then toddle off to buy some formula because they can't express a gallon within ten seconds and their poor baby is apparently starving. It's a final nail in the coffin for the process of BFing which is so easily undermined by knocks to your confidence.

Also, I am highly sceptical about this sudden interest in BFing from AK. She must really hate the new guidelines about exclusive breastfeeding until 6 months, non?

but optimum supply of milk is irrelevant to milksupply!
Otherwise 3rd world very underweight, starving women would not be able to make milk....fact is they do...because the Body will take from the mother no matter what her own nourishment status is....
It is of coursse not a optimal situation....but...

so, what you are saying is NOT the same as what wasting is saying...the healthy diet is so that the mum feels better physically, etc...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 13:34:54

im looking at the positives

lots of good advice (ok not all to everyones liking..and a different perspective on bfing advice,) great healthy recipes, links to other BF sites/info


problem is, unless you know beforehand a lot about bf, you won't be able to know which bit to take and which to throw out as bad advice...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 13:39:45

Fairlady, sorry im abit confused? (easily done..)

what i am saying is when people are healthy etc their bodies are working at an advantagein third world countrys bf rates are poor after 4-6months for many reasons but one being the mums ability to keep producing enough milk, hence the project to keep them eating well...

im not saying if people dont eat right they cant bf... im just all for everyone eating better!

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 13:43:52

The standard BF advice is out there, but it doesnt work for everyone (didnt for me) so some people value a different opinion.

I think the scary thing for me when i started was everyone elses opinios of "doing it right"..

Im all for following babies lead

actually the reason why bf problems exist in 3rd world countries is that Formula is aggessively marketed over there...but that is a whole other debate!

it is certainly better for maternal health to have a good health, but as far as I am aware it has nothing to do with supply....however, I have not really been actively interested in bf for a fair few years, as my bf'days have been over for 4 years now, so, maybe there are other statistics....

the think is, that mythical facts don't do anyone a favour, if someone has a problem with bf, they need to seek help from someone who realy knows (i.e. bfc's lactation consultant...)....halftruths aren't going to make a positive impact....there is a difference between sharing what workes for you and therefore suggesting to someone els that it could help for them and someone giving out crap advice for money...

and Fairmidden only just read your message...indeed, teh 6 month guidelines are not taken well from those that loose out because of them...which is those that make money from weaning...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 14:01:26

LOL how long has the recommendation been 6months? your all so cynical.

Why would it make a difference to people buying AK cook books? surely they would still buy them just 2 months later?

FairMidden Wed 27-May-09 14:05:19

But gussy weaning takes place over a very, very short timescale. So AK has to get in there and sell, sell, sell before people realise that, actually, it's not that hard to wean a baby without having a Magimix and a truckload of icecube trays. Plus, by 6 months babies can manage finger foods and so sidestep the whole puree malarkey anyway. That's a well kept secret, it seems (or it was 'til Aitch got wind of it grin).

AK needs people to believe that babies need purees. And that's a really tiny window in which to make a profit.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 14:08:18

her recipes arent purees lol think nonly one book is the rest is just normal food.... i did blw with both of mine and still used her books

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 14:11:10

sorry that should of read not all her recipes are purees... just one book i think is all purees..

FairMidden Wed 27-May-09 14:16:31

You miss my point, gussy. AK is part of a big commercial machine which feeds on the hormonal desperation of new parents who want to Do The Best by their child. I won't go so far as to describe it as preying grin. There's not a lot of money to be made from saying "Kids don't need special kid food, they can eat what adults eat, try and make it mainly healthy stuff". Much more profitable to make people think they need a book to keep them right.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 14:21:05

definately missing your point, i see AK cook books the same as my Jamie Oliver ones...

I think you have a very cynical view...

FairMidden Wed 27-May-09 14:27:43

You're right there grin

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 14:35:34


BelleWatling Wed 27-May-09 14:52:57

I am only just getting in on this debate but Gussy why is it so 'cynical' or difficult to believe that someone who has a big brand and company wants to maximise the profits and will use the tools she has at her disposal to build that brand and sell more products?

Website content is even more important because unlike advertising and packaging it is not regulated and the ASA / Trading Standards will not be pulling her up on the inaccuracies on there. I imagine one of her strategies is to build the AK website as the home of information about children's nutrition from birth onwards. Whether she is rubbing her hands and cackling and developing her own range of breast pumps / breastmilk foods I don't know. If you are arguing there isn't a commercial angle to what she produces...I really don't know what to say.

Given, as you point out, there are numerous not-for-profit and accountable organisations providing free evidence-based support and information about breastfeeding from WHO to NCT to LLL to the DOH and NHS - why get it from an unqualified, unregulated and partial source?

mummyfuss Wed 27-May-09 17:28:23

The woman clearly has a screw loose. Her latest little post on the CBC thread is as follows:-

"I can see that the breastfeeding feature has produced some interesting and lively debate. What is good about this country is that everyone is entitled to their opinion and an open discussion .

Some mothers find breastfeeding very easy and others find it extremely difficult and it can be a very emotionally trying time . Why should breasts be the only part of your body that works perfectly – we all have eyes but whilst some people see perfectly others need glasses so if you find breastfeeding difficult rest assured so do many other mothers. Some of you may have read recently about the mother in the US who killed herself when she failed to successfully breastfeed her child . This may be an extreme case but I do know that many mothers end up in tears and in a terrible state as they feel a failure if they are not able to breastfeed their child.

There is plenty of very good general advice on breastfeeding in books and on websites but what I have tried to do is find some methods that have worked for mothers who have tried to follow the generally available advice but have still failed to succeed. Clare has had 20 years experience in Breastfeeding and she has had remarkable success with many of the more difficult cases.

My website is here to help mums and every mother is an individual. What works for one person may not work for another. In the same way some babies are very good eaters and other are very fussy. There is no one answer on how you get your fussy child to eat – I give guidance and suggestions but I wouldn’t presume to know what might work for every single child as every child is different and so is every mum.

My aim is to help you in whatever way that I can to make looking after your baby and child as stress free and happy as possible."

FairMidden Wed 27-May-09 17:50:17

"My aim is to help you in whatever way that I can to make looking after your baby and child as stress free and happy [and profitable] as possible." grin

foxytocin Wed 27-May-09 18:37:34

no gussy, the reason bf rates are poor in 3rd world countries are some of the same reasons that they are poor over here.

they get formula companies telling them that they must have a healthy diet and show them photos of a whole fresh mackerel and supermarket perfect fruit and veg - apples, strawberries, plus milk, yoghurt etc.

these images tell 3rd world mothers that their diet of maybe, salt fish, callaloo and 'ground food' is not good enough so they supplement because after all, everything that comes from the first world is better than okra callaloo and ox tail, to give an example from the Caribbean.

it implies that diet for breastfeeding includes things like milk which is expensive to buy and expensive to keep unless it is powdered, again an imported first world food.

these misconceptions which formula companies are happy to portray is one why a lot of 3rd world women supplement with formula then begin to lose their supply.

they do the same thing over here though! a breastfeeding mum can happily breastfeed here on chinese takeaways, chips and beans and water. it isn't optimal for anyone but you can live on it in the medium to long term.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 20:02:53

I did say there was many different reasons foxy, i was just highlighting one unicef intitive to help bf mums in third word countrys eat better.

All im saying in a world of increased medical problems and obesity why would people slate someone promoting healthy family food?

If you lived on the diet your suggesting you would be a prime candidate for all the nasty unpleasent illnesses that could be avoided.... diabetes, heart dieses, strokes, high bp.... all which impact on pregnancy and bfing.

but gussy, unicef are trying to help 3rd world mothers to eat healthier, because of their situation, not because they want to undermine breastfeeding...indeed it could be said, that in those extreme situations that 3rd world countries experience on a daily basis, it is more important to feed the mothers, because the Babies/Children will than be fed automatically....
still nothing to do with quality of milk, though....

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 20:12:57

I refer back to my earlier post, the research showed that due to diet (and other etc..) they were struggling to breast feed past 4-6months (milk supply slowed down) hence the intiative... i didnt mention quality of milk...

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 20:34:30

Which research gussy?

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 20:40:06

did i link it earlier?

hang on think theres a link on this page

will check and find the research document incase its not, may take me a while, bear with me

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 20:47:45

Direct quote....

When supplies of food or vitamin supplements are available it is best to give them to the breastfeeding mother rather than the infant. This will improve the mother's health and well-being, ensure adequate vitamins in her milk, and protect the infant from the risks of artificial feeding.

The mother's dietary intake will not generally increase how much breastmilk she can produce in a day. Her nutritional status before and during pregnancy are important for milk content, but generally only of marginal impact since her body will ensure that the breastmilk receives the available vitamins and minerals. If a mother is concerned whether she is giving her baby enough milk, this can be assessed by ensuring that the infant is urinating at least 5-7 times a day, and producing stool according to age and diet. The mother should know that eating enough of the available foods, increasing variety when possible, and increasing the frequency of breastfeeding, day and night, will support and increase her breastmilk production.

UNICEF works in many areas to support maternal nutrition; one focus is a Low Birth Weight Prevention Initiative, with pilot studies on multi-micronutrient supplements for pregnant women. It will be piloted in 11 countries - Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Indonesia, Philippines, Viet Nam, China, Tanzania, Madagascar and Mozambique. The initiative will complement UNICEF’s Care for Women and Children Initiative, which focuses on women’s education, workload, physical health and nutrition status, emotional well-being, reproductive health, and care during pregnancy and lactation.

end quote...

this is what i meant by improving bfing mums diet.

ctually I read the article differently....but really got to go...

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 21:05:10

"The mother's dietary intake will not generally increase how much breastmilk she can produce in a day"

FairMidden Wed 27-May-09 21:11:51

I don't think that quote backs up your assertion (that diet has an impact on BFing) in any way gussy.

ruddynorah Wed 27-May-09 21:12:02

'Her nutritional status before and during pregnancy are important for milk content, but generally only of marginal impact since her body will ensure that the breastmilk receives the available vitamins and minerals.'

ie it doesn't matter to her milk if she eats chips and beans every tea time. however, she might feel better and more energetic if she eats well..same as anyone, bf or not.

littleladybug Wed 27-May-09 21:17:58

The nutrients and minerals in breastmilk come from stores in yer bones that've been there for some time...

feel like I recognise a couple of posters on here, ahem ahem...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 21:19:41

LOL please read my posts, i dont think i ever said it stopped people bfing, i am saying if mums health is good, its all better for her and baby and yes bfing, and i think it backs up what im saying perfectly.

im tired of banging my head against the wall now, shall leave you to return to your AK and CBC bashing in peace.... as that what seems to interest you all...

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 21:26:04

gussy, breastmilk is not affected by what the mother eats.
The mother will feel better if she eats better, but the baby is not affected.

littleladybug Wed 27-May-09 21:34:39

Yes, retreat Gussy! Much less support on here than on the AK site, eh? Get more of your pals on to agree with you...

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 21:39:07

LMAO... i think i made my point to those that listened....

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 21:44:50

What was your point though gussy? Because the evidence you quoted did not support your argument.

BelleWatling Wed 27-May-09 21:47:13

Besides...are we seriously comparing the health of women who are in third world countries at risk of malnutrition and starvation with those in the UK who eat turkey twizzlers and McDs...? There is no comparison despite what your friend Jamie Oliver says.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 21:51:39

my point was that ak promoting nutritional family recipies is a good thing.

The third world point was someone elses comparison, which had some interesting stuff about healthy eating.... there was no comparision drawn... and it became some sort of debate about bfing and diet.

i say once more all im advocating is a healthy diet... good for everyone..

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 21:55:39

Yes, a healthy diet is good for everyone, but it has nothing to do with ability to breastfeed.
AK sticking her nose won't help mothers who eat a poor diet, for whatever reason, to feel confident in their breastfeeding.

The concept of 'breastfeeding recipes' is damaging.

gussymooloo Wed 27-May-09 22:01:03

LMAO i think the general feeling on here is most things/suggestions are against breast feeding or not good for breast feeding...why twist things so negatively?
i thought this site promoted breast feeding? why does it come across so anti?

The medical recommendation in bfing is to eat more calories/iron/and drink more.... was from the BMJ recommendations... whys that so bad... doesnt say that people who dont do it cant breast feed.... its saying its best for health...

wastingmyeducation Wed 27-May-09 22:10:29

You aren't making much sense to me gussy. Who is anti-breastfeeding, MN?!

Eating healthily is better for the mother's health. It has no effect on breastfeeding.

I don't know why you find this so funny.

ruddynorah Wed 27-May-09 22:16:34

gussy a lot of bfers have found this site invaluable. all info is backed up with sources. all in easy to understand language. maybe show it to annabel next time you see her wink

littleladybug Wed 27-May-09 22:17:38

MN ladies, gussymooloo's main objective atm is to wind folks up and keep the discussion going. Her genuine interest in bf is limited.

ruddynorah Wed 27-May-09 22:20:41

'Making women think that they must maintain ‘perfect’ diets in order to have thriving breastfed babies is an unnecessary obstacle to breastfeeding.'

according to good old kellymom.

dreamylady Wed 27-May-09 22:25:16

infused water?
err i tend to find actual water quite thirst quenching myself.

dreamylady Wed 27-May-09 22:29:26

oops should have read the whole thread bet talking about infused water is sooooo 3pm this afternoon.

things look like they've got a lot more considered and serious debate style so apologies for being way out of step blush

Debs75 Wed 27-May-09 22:55:23

If you had to eat a 'helathy' diet to produce breast milk then why do I crave stodgy carbohydrates such as cereals, bread, pasta, flapjacks etc.
I am trying to eat healthily due to weight and diabetes risk but sometimes an apple or salad is so boring.

I think diet in the western world is not as important as unless you are super skinny you have reserves to fall back on (I must have enough for another 6 months). If you are only eating enough to survive and have been doing for seeveral months then being pregnant will have strained your body and bf will put another strain on it. then you need a balance diet as you are not only feeding yourself but a baby as well.
Hope that made some sense.

elkiedee Wed 27-May-09 22:55:37

I don't think most posters on this thread were impressed with the infused water, dreamy - though I think that bit of the conversation was a few days ago.

littleladybug Wed 27-May-09 23:06:40

hey deekayel, go easy, she did apologise

foxytocin Thu 28-May-09 06:37:52

gussy, the quote from the UNICEF document you gave is for all women in the world. from women in rural Pakistan, Sudan etc to the women in nanny states like the UK.

You can hardly read that document with the same interpretation for women across the spectrum with the same glasses on.

the only women in the UK who benefits from reading this document in a similar vein as those women on seriously marginal diets in the third world are those women on seriously bad diets - chips and takeaways 7 days a week, no veg and those with a history of anorexia (for example) during their adult lives.

The majority of women in the lesser developed world and the vast majority in the more developed world are on at least an adequate diet to produce breastmilk of the quality and quantity to enable her to breastfeed exclusively for 6 months.

there is no 'drop' between 4-6 months in women's milk quality or quantity as you hinted in a response to my post yesterday afternoon. the drop you speak about is normally in a woman's confidence or brought on by separation from her baby for whatever reason.

so AK producing breastfeeding recipes for women in the UK who are by and large well fed despite having days here and there of living on chocolate and cheese sarnies and weetabix, and maybe more or less wholesome the rest of the week, is just not on.

it promotes the myth that if I don't eat fresh organic balanced meals my milk will not be good enough and my baby will suffer.

we don't need to make breastfeeding hard for women. we need to make it easy.

the last lasagne I made from scratch was about 5 years ago. i am tandem feeding now.

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 07:00:28

I give up.... im really unsure to why you are all against mums eating well...

at no point did i say it affects milk directly...

My point was it affects mum which in turn can affect milk, ie dehydration and other physical illness...
i dread to think what you lot would say about smoking and breasft feeding, if your so fixed that what you eat ingest doesnt affect milk ;)

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 07:02:58

Debs.. i think you would find the carbs are good, by healthy diet its not rabbit food, its a mixed healthy diet...

DRs recommended increased calorie intake and as i said before your body normally does it naturally by making you hungry and thirsty.

wastingmyeducation Thu 28-May-09 07:46:04

But gussy, that's the point, you have to be starving before milk is affected.

We're not against mums eating well, we're against misinformation.

foxytocin Thu 28-May-09 08:50:26

ditto what wastingmyeducation said.

the calorific increase which most women in the uk need for breastfeeding is can largely be met by a bounty bar and a couple chocolate digestives. wink but seriously, yes.

btw i am no against AK peddling recipes. i am against her peddling myths n half truths in order to sell recipes. i think there is a niche for her books as chipmonkey said earlier. and i don't agree with selling them at the expense of good breastfeeding information.

tiktok Thu 28-May-09 08:53:42

gussy, your viewpoint is odd. You agree (I think) that women do not need to eat well in order to breastfeed in a perfectly healthy way (from the baby's point of view. The evidence is that even women who are chronically undernourished are perfectly able to breastfeed exclusively - this is one of the issues researchers looked at when they did the studies for the WHO (to look for evidence of the 'weanling's dilemma' of poor societies ie is it better to cease excl bf at 4 mths and supplement with other foods, or continue excl bf for the protection and other health benefits of it? They found no evidence of this dilemma - the answer was that the maj. of babies are fine with a policy of excl bf to 6 mths.

Women in developing countries do not cease to bf at 4-6 mths. Many cease to bf exclusively for all sorts of cultural reasons, inc a lack of belief in excl bf - read Politics of Breastfeeding for more info. And yes, formula promotion plays a part in this.

As for smoking - smoking affects the breastmilk, but not to the extent that the baby is better off on formula.

foxytocin Thu 28-May-09 08:54:08

gussy, i recommend listening to this lady's argument about making breastfeeding special in sort of the vein AK puts it.

elkiedee Thu 28-May-09 09:48:05

dreamy and ladybug, sorry, I wasn't meaning to criticise your post, I didn't think your apology was needed, actually - I meant to say that your opinion about infused water was similar to the others posted on the thread. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

HullabaLuLu Thu 28-May-09 10:41:34

AK is on This Morning today if anyone is interested. Not sure what she's doing...I assume cooking.

mummyfuss Thu 28-May-09 10:51:06

Maybe she's gone to speak to the agony aunt wink

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 10:53:55

Ticktok, my only argument was that i thought AK promoting healthy food was a good thing, for mum and better for baby as mum is healthier....

thats it. I dont see anything odd in that. The Third world debate started with someone else, and i was aware of unicef doing work to enable mums to keep bfing past 4-6 months as the rates are poor.. due to several reasons and one quoted was poor nutritional intake... never did i say those with a shit diet cant breastfeed.

My personal experiance of BFing is that my body natural increased my calorie/fluid intake....

wastingmyeducation Thu 28-May-09 11:17:33

Of course it's better if Mum is healthier.
Makes no difference to the breastmilk though.

It's a bad thing as it is misleading, so mothers think they have to eat well to successfully breastfeed.

FairMidden Thu 28-May-09 12:48:12

" my only argument was that i thought AK promoting healthy food was a good thing, for mum and better for baby as mum is healthier.... "

Mum's nutritional health makes no difference to the milk the baby receives (unless mum is actually about to keel over) therefore is not directly better for the baby. It makes no difference to the baby. Saying it does is likely to put people with poor diets off breastfeeding.

In fact, IIRC during periods of maternal dehydration the breastmilk actually changes its proportions to provide more fluid for the baby who will presumably be concurrently exposed to dehydrating conditions. So you don't need to drink or eat any more or differently than you want to anyway.

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 13:50:30

"In fact, IIRC during periods of maternal dehydration the breastmilk actually changes its proportions to provide more fluid for the baby who will presumably be concurrently exposed to dehydrating conditions. So you don't need to drink or eat any more or differently than you want to anyway. "

hmmm and what do you think happens to the mother if shes dehydrated? and if she doesnt drink more?

can you really not see a link to mum being healthy and well being better for baby? if you keel over from dehydration whos looking after baby? (extreme but happens..) and before you say it, im not saying bfing is responsible soley for dehydration but your right our bodys do everything to ensure babies milk is not affected and its at the cost of the mothers health... that is my point.

Healthy eating is good, im a big fan of the Nice guidelines for improving nutrition in pregnant and bfing mothers and children with low incomes, i think it can only be a good thing.

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 13:54:50

"Studies have shown that most healthy breastfeeding women maintain an abundant milk supply while taking in 1800-2200 (or more) calories per day. Consuming less than 1500-1800 calories per day (most women should stay at the high end of this range) may put your milk supply at risk, as may a sudden drop in caloric intake. "

Is this not what ive said?

again what i said was most bfing mums find they are hungrier and get thirsty more often.. so your body increases your intake naturally...

TheCrackFox Thu 28-May-09 14:02:31

"hmmm and what do you think happens to the mother if shes dehydrated? and if she doesnt drink more?"

If a breastfeeding mum is thirsty she should drink a glass of water not twat about making special infused water drinks or whatever it was that AK was touting.

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 14:07:05

I never mention infused fucking water.

I think tap water does the trick fine.

wastingmyeducation Thu 28-May-09 14:07:37

But she's aiming this at breastfeeding mothers, not mothers in general, which seems to imply that healthy eating is required for breastfeeding.

TheCrackFox Thu 28-May-09 14:12:59

Sorry Gussy I know you didn't but AK did. On her web site and this thread is about AK. Personally i think AK tries to make things far too complicated so that new mums feel the need to buy her products.

foxytocin Thu 28-May-09 14:18:08

gussy, the (vast?) majority of women in the UK eats well in excess of 2200 calories per day in the UK. that quote really doesn't back up what you are trying to put across.

no one here is saying that we don't want healthier women. we want healthier women despite their age, weight, size, no of (or no) children, breastfeeding or not.

We are saying that linking healthier eating in order to breastfeed successfully is a red herring for all but a few women in the UK out of a cohort of, say for argument, a 1000.

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 14:27:49

I concur, but i do think if theres a number of women who want to change their diet/lifestyle when pregnant/bfing then we should make the most of it.

What i had said was women need to eat more and drink more, which that quote backs up, i definately didnt eat that many calories pre bfing.. and i think its helpful for women to know that..

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 14:29:57

arhh sorry crackfox.. im only supporting healthy food not infused water (wtf) or any products... all babies need is hands...

wastingmyeducation Thu 28-May-09 14:35:08

Don't you see how linking breastfeeding with healthy eating in this way could put off women who don't want to change their diets?

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 14:39:30

no i cant Wasting, theres nothing saying you cant bfed if you dont (change your diet i mean..) so why would i put people off?

wastingmyeducation Thu 28-May-09 14:42:28

Because it says breastfeeding recipes, there is an obvious implication that a special diet is required or at least preferred.

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 14:47:44

ahhh surely a healthy diet is always preferred?

If you listen to the video link (and get past the bad hair) she does say you can eat what you want....

wastingmyeducation Thu 28-May-09 14:52:17

She may not literally say that you must eat a healthy diet, but it is implied in the same way that covering breastfeeding leaflets in pictures of whole fish and exotic fruit. It's how marketing works.

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 14:53:57

I dont suppose it would be the same with leaflets covered in pictures of cakes/marsbars/crisps.....

wastingmyeducation Thu 28-May-09 15:08:30

But why have any pictures of food when it has nothing to do with breastfeeding?!

oh dear, poor gussy, don't think you deserved the roasting you got....

but in the end, the advise on the site is not necessarily factual and s at parts misleading....which is not a good thing...however, AK doesn't care about neither, because she wants to make money....

problem with those sites is, that, truely, I doubt woman from lower socio cultural backgrounds, i.e. poorer areas, will probably NOT waste prescious time to look at the website and they certainly will not care much for the will mostly be people that have a pretty good idea it was a needs based website, it would be completely unnecessary, iykwim...

gussymooloo Thu 28-May-09 19:14:20

LOL i have thick skin fair lady, think we shall agree to disagree.

can see your POV.


earlscourtqueen Sat 30-May-09 02:15:15

I am shocked at reading all these posts. Clare Byam Cook is a super star... I was working with a lactation consultant paying a lot of money and getting the worse advice possible as I clearly was not feeding my newborn enough based on the advise i was given. I sadly had to put my child through unnecessary tests. Clare solved the problem immediately which only took her 15 mins when the other consultant was charging a large amount of money per hr and coming every week for 3 to 4 hrs at a time...and advising me to keep seeking medical help. Ridiculous. I praise clare for her advice and can not thank her enough.

HullabaLuLu Sat 30-May-09 09:31:22

That's great that she helped you to bf but you do know that you could have got help for free don't you?

I know how lost you can feel when you have problems with bf. I would have turned to anyone when I was struggling to feed dd at 3-5 weeks. I got help from a La Leche League Leader for free. She gave me her mobile number and told me to text or call her if I needed help (which I did). She let me turn up with my baby wherever she was working that day and helped me. I was worried I didn't have enough milk (after expressing to check!) and she explained supply and demand to me.

My big worry was that I might not be able to bf and I kept asking her if it was too late to "fix" my problem. She was always very calm and always said not at all. She absolutely believed that I could bf and told me abandon all thoughts of formula.

I also came on here and got help from TikTok (also free) and support from other MNers telling me I could do it. We've never looked back, still BF at 4 months now.

I have looked at CBC's book and had intended to buy it before seeing the LLL bf consultant. Lucky I was too sleep deprived to be able to cope with a trip to Borders! I would have definately given up and gone to formula. I'd have believed I had supply problems and that I was starving my baby.

I think its a shame that AK didn't think to get advice from somewhere like LLL or NCT rather than from CBC. IMHO Clare encourages mums to quit and I know that would have left me heart broken and regretful for the rest of my life.

callipop Sat 30-May-09 21:20:41

I agree with Earlscourtqueen. I breastfed my first baby for four months. He was born on the 25th percentile and due to my constant blocked milk ducts he went down to the 2nd percentile. I spoke to several NCT breastfeeding councillors and met with one who all advised me to carry on regardless although it is now clear that he was not getting enough milk. I promised myself not to breastfeed my next child as the blocked ducts had been so painful and the NCT councillors had said that I would most likely block up again. But when the time came I wanted to give it another go. I saw Clare Byam-Cook when my baby was 3 days old as it was obvious the feeding was not going well again. She immediately corrected the way my baby was latched on and for the first time since he was born he sucked properly and had a good feed. Without her I would not have been able to continue breastfeeding. I can't believe she's gets so much criticism when she is helping so many mothers.

tiktok Sun 31-May-09 00:39:47

callipop, I am certain that CBC does help mothers to breastfeed, and that some people respond well to her approach. I think it is awful you had to get private help 3 days postnatal - amending positioning to enable happy bf is basic midwifery care that should be easily available, but in too many cases is not.

I think the criticism comes because of what people have read of CBC's writing - some of it seems to be incorrect, and would actually lead people to stop bf, rather than continue.

vlc Sun 31-May-09 00:57:58

If CBC causes more damage than does good, I wish she would cease to provide her services until she is better equipped and the equation is reversed.

Based on her advice, I suspect she has destroyed bresatfeeding more times than assisted it.

Even cowboy builders probably hammer a nail in successfully once in a while.

BCLass Sun 31-May-09 15:01:24

So Callipop and earlscourtqueen both never posted on Mumsnet before, both can't write in paragraphs, both love BC, both have no profiles (well, not all of us do admittedly wink)

suspicious, moi?

BCLass Sun 31-May-09 15:02:23

love CBC, obviously, small freudian slip grin (and crumbs under keys!)

dorisbonkers Sun 31-May-09 15:30:07

earlscourtqueen and Callipop. Clare Byam-Cook is a lactaction consultant so will have helped some individual women -- if she didn't she wouldn't have succeeded in her field -- and she is to be commended for that. My posh friend used her and she's good at getting women to latch.

But the key thing here is that using her platform as a 'celebrity' breastfeeding coach she is disseminating incorrect and outdated information about breastfeeding that has the potential to fuck up many more women's breastfeeding experiences than individuals she has helped.

I never read any breastfeeding books (my baby turned up early) but had been given the Gina Ford book (by the same posh friend, er, thanks!) and although I never intended to follow the plan I did read a bit and the advice CBC gave about breastfeeding and expressing being a sign of supply really really messed with my head and almost derailed things for me. For that, and that alone, she gets a resounding two fingers up from me.

I started breastfeeding without any knowledge of how it worked and I didn't have the confidence I have now to ignore her batshit advice. Especially as I had a small baby so there wasn't a lot of margin for error.

I've since skimmed her book at a friends and there' something about the tone and the advice that makes me think she secretly despises women and motherhood.

dorisbonkers Sun 31-May-09 15:33:17

Wanted to add that my posh friend who used her only breastfed for 8 weeks after topping up and half-heartedly b/feeding before finally giving up. Mind you, she keeps hinting that I should stop b.feeding my 7-month old daughter so it's clear she isn't all that into it anyway.

CBC wasn't teh one on that god awful programme a fair while back, where they tried out different routines/childrearing techniques, with family's of new Baby's...or is she, i.e. the one with that very strict routine, thing...
anyone know what I am talking about?

tiktok Mon 01-Jun-09 14:00:37

FairLady, that was Claire Verity, not CBC.

oh right...I wasn't sure...easily confused me...

earlscourtqueen Tue 02-Jun-09 11:04:29

Just a further point, the lactation consultant I saw WAS a fully qualified IBCLC consultant.. Clare came highly reccomended by numerous people, including the midwives in my hospital. I cant thank clare enough for her help and advice. It is a real shame that to think that when seeking medical help and advice that you can be so misled, but Clare is straight forward with real sound advice that works for the indivisuals and not preaching from a text book. I can only say great things about Clare Byam Cook.

bambipie Tue 02-Jun-09 12:29:17


ruddynorah Tue 02-Jun-09 12:33:41

lol at the 2 CBC fans wink

MrsTittleMouse Tue 02-Jun-09 13:00:10

foxytocin - what a fantastic video!

mummyfuss Sat 06-Jun-09 13:40:48

Just a further point earlscourtqueen - why have you posted an almost identical post on 2 forums?.......and how much is she paying you?

kazbeth Sat 06-Jun-09 20:16:50

I don't get why anyone would spend so much money on advice when they could go to one of the charities (NCT LLL etc) and get advice for free. If they really wanted to they could donate the equivalent consultation fee to the charity .. I'm sure they'd be glad of it. Is it just that people don't know these organisations are out there?

kazbeth Sat 06-Jun-09 20:19:26

Oh, and I forgot to add that I quite liked the annabel karmel books. I've looked again at them since this thread and realised I'd not bothered reading any of the first chapters and went straight to the non puree recipes so maybe that's why. We were in a food rut at the time so it gave us some good inspiration.

loulabellecelino Sun 07-Jun-09 17:59:45

what a load of bollocks. I dont know what is worse, that she write that crap or that some poor women actually read it and take notice.

Jeeena Thu 30-Sep-10 21:36:36

AK is a total twat!

She looks like a lawyer and she definetely earns more that a lawyer.
She has always an immaculate Wella hair style and perfectly shaped finger nails... the EXACT image you would expect for someone spending endless hours in the fucking kitchen!

She can fuck right off to Legoland with her stupid recepies about frying crougettes in butter!




theyoungvisiter Thu 30-Sep-10 21:53:06

Are you enjoying the wine advanced search facilities tonight Jeema? grin

Quite like courgettes in butter meself. I mean, I'm not too fussed about AK but I've got no grudges against the courgettes confused

LBsmum Thu 30-Sep-10 21:56:43

i've already read this once ! you are cluttering up my precious mumsnet moment

so much to read.... so little time

JiggeryPopery Thu 30-Sep-10 21:57:46

Um, Jeeena you seem to hate her so much you have resurrected a year-old thread.

And you're a little bit scary, too, love.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 30-Sep-10 21:58:25

'She can fuck right off to Legoland'

Is there some significance to fucking off to Legoland rather than elsewhere? grin

I'm also quite partial to courgettes in butter, as is DS. I've never cooked an AK recipe in my life though, I think she's fairly awful.

theyoungvisiter Thu 30-Sep-10 22:04:08

I might start using that as my put-down du jour.

"Steal my parking space would you? You can fuck right off to legoland."

"Wanda's nicked my cup out of the work coffee room again. She can fuck right off to legoland."

It's got a pleasing trip-off-the-tongue quality to it.

wastingaway Thu 30-Sep-10 22:20:35


littleducks Thu 30-Sep-10 22:39:33

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