DD (5 months) wants to live on thin air... depressed and anxious... long post, sorry... but help, please!

[designerbaby]

Hi all,

My DD (5months, 1 week) has always been tricky to feed - after a good start (breastfeeding came quite naturally, no pain or anything, good initial weight gain) by about 2.5 / 3 months she has been very difficult to feed, sucks for a couple of minutes, (5 tops), pulls off, won't be coaxed back on, wait a bit, try again, another couple of minutes... but just recently she's been getting a lot worse. It feels like every meal time is a battle, and I keep trying for about an hour each time before giving up.

She rarely cries for food - I just feed her 31/2 to 4 hourly anyway... I tried just leaving it until she asked once, but after 5 1/2 hours without her being even remotely bothered I gave in and fed her. She fed for about 3 minutes...

She has been gradually dropping down the centiles for weight - at a 9lb 8oz birthweight she was on the 98th centile - now she's on the 10th.

I spoke at length to my HV about the problems I was having getting her to feed - she just nodded, said "well lets weigh her and see where she is", did so, noted that her weight gain wasn't great and helpfully said "hmm yes, she's dropped down a bit - er, you should probably try and feed her more."

WTF?

I've tried replacing the 2.30/3pm feed with a bottle of formula to try and see if it was a problem with my milk/letdown. On a good day she'll take 120ml, om a bad day only about 60ml. Yesterday she took 160ml and I did a dance around the house for half an hour I was so happy... but then she wouldn't feed at all at bedtime which kind of canceled it out.

Because she's not feeding properly I feel like my supply is getting less and less - should I go over to bottles entirely to rule out at least one variable? (ie I know then it's nothing to to with the supply/taste/letdown) At least then I know that it's there if she wants it and there's nothing stopping her from getting it (she takes a bottle no problem). Also I've been told that formula is more calorific...

Father in law, who's a GP, suggested trying her on some solids about 3 weeks ago, which I did, she finds the whole experience quite fun, and initially took to them with gusto, but now the amount she's taking of solids is getting less and less too, and I feel like I've f*cked it all up even more by giving her solids too early.

Otherwise she's a dream baby, sleeps well at night (has been sleeping through since about 3 months of her own accord). She has a dream feed at 10.30/11pm where she will regularly take 120mls - TBH this is the easiest feed of the day.

She's perfectly happy and contented, so long as I'm not trying to get food of any kind into her... it's the only time we have tears, really. People say, "well don't worry, she'll take what she needs" but I can't help but think this is rubbish, because she's clearly not gaining as she should.

I just feel like we should be over this erratic behaviour by now... I get so envious when I see friend's babies feeding contentedly for 20 minutes or so, while I'm trying to wrestle my little girl onto the boob to get her to feed for 5 minutes...

It's been months of this now, and frankly I'm at the end of my tether. I dread each feed time.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

DB
xx

[cockles]

Oh that is so hard. I wish I had some helpful advice but I don't. It may well just be the distractability of this age. My son did exactly the same thing, and it was so upsetting. Except he was feeding at night so I felt that made up. He did drop through the centiles BUT so did loads of breastfed babies - I'm not a great believer in this 'keeping their line' thing. I would offer milk at least every 2 hours, and feed particularly as soon as she wakes up, before and after naps - that should give you 3 decent feeds during the day. Remember you can't tell how much she is getting - breastfeeding gets really efficient at this age, and she is probably getting much more than you think in her 3 mins. I also don't think your supply should be too affected, esp if she is still having a good dreamfeed - by 5-6 months it is well established. COuld she conceivably be teething? Worth trying teething powders to calm her down before feed if so. Also, this sounds mad, but for us what worked when my son simply wouldn't latch on was getting him to latch onto a dummy then changing - he seemed not to mind. Also, feeding in a different position (lying down/walking around). It's really really hard, I hope things improve for you soon.

[tiktok]

DB - talk to someone in real life about this, someone who knows a range of options and who understands your concerns and your wish to have a happy, breasfeeding relationship that doesn't involve struggles and fights. You've had a really hard time

Formula is about the same calorie value as breastmilk in terms of volume - that is, 100 mls of formula is about the same as 100 mls of breastmilk (actually, formula has fewer cals, but there's not much in it). But clearly, 100 mls of formula has more calories than 50 mls of breastmilk....

Solids are not calorie dense - at least most of them are not. You'd have to get a lot of solids into a baby to equate to a typical bottle or breastfeed (do the maths - 100 mls of breastmilk is about 70 calories, and that's about an apple and a half, which you would never expect a 5 mth old to eat!).

It is true that most healthy babies take what they need. It's also true that some babies - especially those at the top of the centile charts at birth - may have a perfectly physiological period of catch-down growth, so going from 98th to 10th in five months is not in itself a cause for concern.

Some babies don't 'ask' for food and are laid back enough to accept it when it is given. 3.5-4 hrly is not often, and I agree with your HV to offer her more feeds to see what happens....lots of small feeds of 2-5 mins long are fine and on the normal spectrum. Just don't fight with her to have more than this - accept her preference to stop. Feeds of just 30 seconds or a minute can also be normal as well.

She's happy, healthy and contented, you say, and developing normally. There is clearly not much wrong with her

[MrsBadger]

it will be hell if she's been sleeping through, but if she eats well when she's sleppy, what about some more dream feeds?
If you can't face a 2/3am one try a 5/6am, then at least it's just an 'early start' rather than a full-on night feed.

Does she nap at all during the day? Could you sneak the boob in after she's dropped off, for a 'daytime dreamfeed'?

[designerbaby]

Hi all, thanks so much for the responses

Dreamfeed has pretty much always been formula, because she'll happily guzzle a bottle in her sleep but i couldn't rouse her sufficiently to take a decent breastfeed at this time, without turning lights on jiggling her etc, which just made her cry and then impossible to settle for another 2 hours, which didn't seem to help anyone. I started by giving her EBM, but found pumping difficult and disruptive to my supply, so switched to formula.

I've tried offering more frequently, but she just looks at me as if to say "What the bloody hell do you think you're doing? I've only just eaten! And lying there with her little mouth tightly pursed shut." Admittely though this is after the last feed being an hour or so of battling, so maybe she 'd just had enough fighting.

I've considered teething, she's drooling a lot and chewing on everything she can get her hands n (except my boobs...). Tried giving some gel before feeds - didn't make much difference apart from I ended up with a numb nipple...

Treid the dummy thing - sometimes it will get her to latch - but only for a matter of seconds before she realises what I've done.

How do you feed walking around? I fear I'm simply not butch enough to carry her in a feeding position for long - I still rely on pillows etc to support her when feeding, and muddle through uncomfortably when out and about.

Re: the solids - I'm only giving them when she's taken as much milk as I can get her to - with the thought that they are supplementary to rather than replacing milk feeds. But maybe she's not hungry enough to take them then...

I'd always been led to believe that for a baby to 'snack' many times a day was bad, and that it was important to get them feeding properly every 3-4 hours when they were a bit older?

God, I don't know...

[designerbaby]

OK... well we've just tried to feed again - at 10.30 - it's now 11.55. Tried on the boob to begin with - did about a minute wriggled, pulled off. Tried other side - about 30 seconds and pulled off. Made bottle of formula. Drank 60 mls and then refused any more. Tried some mashed banana. Refused.

I've had to leave her squalking downstairs on her rug because after an hour and a half of trying to get any form of nourishment into her I'm just feeling desperate and crying, and I don't want her to share my anxiety.

I'll pull myself together and then put her down for a nap and try again when she wakes up. i just feel like I spend half the day trying to feed her. I've tried 3 times to talk to the health visitor about this, and even been to see the GP. They just see a smiley (albeit skinny and smiley) baby and tell me 'she seems fine'.

But I'm not bloody fine. I'm going slowly f*cking bonkers.

Dbxx

[designerbaby]

Feeding all night instead of in the day can't be a long-term solution can it?

[tiktok]

Forget the anti- 'snacking' thing - rubbish, and harmful and distressing rubbish, at that. Some babies need to feed little and often. It's perfectly normal for grown ups to feed/drink more often than 3-4 hourly, as well

I think it will help to see someone, DB...messing about with pillows at 5 mths is a Big Bore and makes the whole thing even more stressful if you have had to 'set up' your feeding position only for her to fight!

I also think it will help to chill and just avoid the fighting. Giving as much formula and solids are you are doing may have had an effect on your supply - not sure as it's not clear how much she is having - and making bf relaxing and stress-free may really help you both.

[tiktok]

Just read you last 2 posts.

This is not good and to be as anxious and stressed as this is not helping - an hour and a half struggling to feed your baby is horrible, and you need more help than the HVs are giving you. You're crying out for help, literally, and they are not even touching the situation.

Can you find a time to talk to them not about the 'problem' of your dd not eating, but about your feelings and response to it?

You deserve help and support that really works

[Monkeybird]

I'm a bit obsessed about this since i've been going through this so I see it everywhere (in other words, feel free to ignore me!), but do you think it could be a nursing strike? Was she feeding well at any point? You said 'recently she's got a lot worse - can you say a bit more about that and whether there are more details? The fact that she fusses at the breast but then takes a reasonable amount of milk might be an indication. does she show any signs of aversion to your breasts - eg unhappiness if you bring them near to her mouth, arching or turning away, getting more and more unhappy if you try to feed her?

Tiktok may well be right - she usually is. And your baby just doesn't need as much food as you think. But if you think there has been a definite change in feeding pattern and she seems unhappy, I would definitely contact a BF counsellor to talk it through more. I found the LLL counsellor I spoke to to be very knowledgable about nursing strikes..

[cockles]

Try Boots/Nelsons teething powders anyway - it might be that - though I think teething pain hurts when they start feeding not 5 mins in. And try not fighting her -just stop when she wants to, then try again half/an hour later.
Tbh that idea of 'settling into longer-spaced feeds' is derived from foormula feeding and can be quite inimical to good breastfeeding (as well as appetite, etc for a normal baby - do you eat only every 4 hrs?) Other relaxation/feed-encouragement tactics might include bathing together, and general naked time.
feeding walking around I used a sling - basic ring sling. But by this age she should be able to feed sitting up on your knee, or any wacky position you can think of - a good bf group ought to be able to help. Keep your spirits up and try not to worry

[Monkeybird]

sorry meant reasonable amount of formula

[zuzkah]

Don't worry, you have a happy and content baby. My ds is 20 weeks and dosn't feed longer than 2-4min. At first, when he was tiny, my HV said he should feed for at least 20 min. Then I worried he's not getting enough...bla bla bla...every child is different and you as a mum know best. So forget what other people say re. lots of feeds=bad and tune in with your baby.

As long as she is gaining weight, I wouldn't worry. I agree with offering her breast more often during the day, but don't push it on her. Feeding should be a happy fun time. They do take as much as they need. You are clearly doing a great job so enjoy your DD and RELAX!

[designerbaby]

I don't honestly know where to go... the HV are just dismissive and haven't really had anything useful to say or suggest other than to 'feed her more' which if I could I obviously f*cking would, wouldn't I...

Another suggested that I 'feed on demand' when I'd just been explaining that she never asks for food...

I could go back again, but there doesn't seem much point...

I really feel like just offering bottle instead of boob to at least cut out some of the variables, at the same time the thought of giving up breastfeeding makes me feel so upset - which is weird because it's such a struggle it stopped being a pleasurable experience a while ago.

I can't believe she's now refusing solids as well...

[designerbaby]

Sorry about meltdown - it's just been 2 months of this or more, and I've just reached the end of my rope...

[zuzkah]

Well I'd call one of the breastfeeding lines and speak to a breastfeeding councellor. Giving up breastfeeding would be a pity and as you said you don't want to.
HAng in there, your DD is fine.

[Monkeybird]

db, we're all pretty much saying please speak to the BF helplines, not necessarily the HV... Do you have their numbers?

[tiktok]

DB - the HVs may not understand that the problem is not that your baby isn't eating (clearly she is, but there are struggles and fights) but that you are upset and it's affecting your life every day...today is, as you say, the point at which it's all got too much. Can you spell it out to the HVs - you do not want to hear problem-solving about feeding her more often, or reassurance that she is fine (or not just that - I think your dd probably is fine from what you say, and it's good for you to know that but it does not reach your concern). You have had the problem-solving approach and it does not solve it. You need to see someone else if they are unable to help. Can you take your partner to this consult?

HVs are the gateway to other help - it doesn't all stop there.

You are worried, I think, about not meeting your dd's needs, and scared of not understanding what they are, and that's a horrible feeling. All mothers have a bit of it, but as time goes on, it gets better and confidence grows. Your feelings like this are growing - you are being brave to express how difficult it is at the moment, and the next step is to recognise that the feeding 'thing' is only a symbol of this, feeding is a platform where these fears become visible...and the people caring for you need to know.

[tiktok]

Try the bf lines by all means....but I suspect there will be a limit to how far they can help. They will listen and will not judge, but I do think this is more than a volunteer on a phoneline can handle, beyond a certain point, anyway.

Hope you find the right help and support, DB, and keep posting.

[wb]

If your dd is happy and healthy and energetic then I suggest you stop weighing her.

My ds1 was born on the 80th percentile and very gradually dropped to the 9th (the hv wasn't bothered cause it was a long, slow descent). Bw 9 and 12 months he barely put on weight at all (tho did get longer). All through this time I had him weighed regularly and worried and worried and worried.

Now at 2.5 he is still on the 9th percentile but I have finally accepted this is where he's supposed to be. He eats like a sparrow but obviously needs no more - he may not weigh much or be very tall but he runs around all day and is rarely ill.

Obviously if your dd appears ill or lethargic then ignore this post and keep hassling doctor/hv. But otherwise it may just be that she needs less food or at least prefers to snack all day.

Incidentally, my 9 week old ds2 fed for a couple of minutes the other day then was immediately sick (head cold) and I was amazed at the volume of milk that came out. It may be that your dd is very efficient at getting milk from you.

[designerbaby]

Hi al, thanks so much for all your support yesterday... just an update:

Well first thing this morning it all started again - DD wasn't having anything to do with my boobs - even though they were so full (well left was, I think right may have given up) they were leaking and squirting everywhere. Just refused to stay put and only drank for a total of about 5-6 minutes spread over an hour and a half (she woke early this morning). I tried to keep calm and relaxed, thinking I had plenty of time, but she really wasn't interested, no matter how much I coaxed.

Then at 10.30 she was looking like she might be hungry, so I thought I'd just see what happened if I just offered a bottle. After just a little coaxing she took 180ml (!!!!!) in 3 spurts over about 20 minutes. I was so incredibly happy to see stuff going into her...

Tried a BF at 2.30ish, wasn't interested at all, but again, I was able to get her to take about 170ml from a bottle.

Tried BF AGAIN at about 6.15 (her bedtime feed). Again not interested, fed only about 3 minutes from the boob but managed to get her to take a further 150ml from a bottle.

She's just had her dream feed and only took 90mls, but she's done so well otherwise I'm not stressing too much about that.

It just seems like she's preferring bottle to boob, suddenly... maybe it's easier for her, I don't know.

I had honestly hoped to breastfeed for longer than this, at least partially, if not completely (I had an idea of giving her bottles in the daytime and a morning and evening BF and was thinking about instigating that gradually).

Feel very sad that she just doesn't seem interested anymore... feel a bit like I'm losing her somehow, which is daft, I know... especially as BF has been so stressful these past months, trying to get her to eat, you'd think I'd be grateful to give it up. But on the rare ocassions when she did feed nicely, and in the first 3 months, it was just so... delicious (?) a feeling.

But I guess there's no going back now... I can already feel my supply dwindling these past few days, and I don't suppose I'll get it back now she's not interested, I can't see me getting her back on the boob again - I have really tried this afternoon/evening, but she's having none of it.

Is it common for a BF baby to give it up at a point in favour of the bottle? I've never heard of this... Feel a bit rejected and down, allbeit somewhat relieved that at least I know she's had 4 decent feeds today.

Still feeing gutted though...

db

[StealthPolarBear]

you poor thing although I'm glad to read she is feeding at all, what a relief
no advice, sorry, just a bump

[designerbaby]

She just downed 230mls form a bottle in 15 minutes flat...

I guess that's a decision made then, isn't it - even though it's hers and not mine.

It's obviously what she wants, and maybe she'll put some weight on now... I'm obviously relieved that she's eating, so why do I feel so, so gutted?

It's not like I'm losing her - quite the opposite probably, maybe I can enjoy her more now rather than constantly battling to feed her.

I can hear her downstairs laughing with her daddy... I'm up here howling my eyes out.



db

[StealthPolarBear]

db
Does your DP know you are upstairs crying?
FWIW I don't think you should assume anything - maybe just try offering the breast before each feed, but then offer formula if you need to? If you think that would make life harder than it needs to be then ignore that!Sorry, hopefully someone with better advice will be on soon.
What's the weather like there? Can you all get out for a walk if it's bright?
You have been bf her for almost 6 months - that is fantastic!!