looking for extended BF demand feeding folk for support. - long sorry.

[Jenkeywoo]

My Dd is 22 months now and I'm happy to be breastfeeding but tbh there are some pretty crap aspects that I don't know how to deal with and anyone I ask just tells me it's time to stop. For some reason I can't seem to bf anymore without having teeth marks in my nipples - deep deep indents. I have explained to dd that it hurts, have showed her how to open her mouth really wide to latch on which she does but still the teeth. She doesn't bite but they are just kind of in the way. She does have quite big front teeth (at the top) and quite a little mouth. Every feed is painful but I have pretty tough nipples and tend to grin and bear it.

Also she has finally started sleeping a bit better - she breastfeeds to sleep by about 8pm (I know, I know, I'm the only fool in Britain still doing this at 22 months) - most nights she is then sleeping till 4.30/5am which is great but when she wakes she wakes up screaming and asking for 'mi-mi'. I get into her bed and feed her but it isn't just a quick feed - no, she wants to sleep with my nipple clamped in her mouth (and due to teeth thing it bloody hurts). If I remove myself from her mouth she goes psychotic screaming but is still kind of asleep so eventually I have to actually wake her up (usally at about 6am when I feel my nipples are about to fall off). I then hand her over to dh who tries to placate her with books etc whilst I grab a tiny bit more sleep.

Also everyone here seems to night wean first but I just can't see her ever giving up her her night feeds. In the day she can go quite a long time without even asking and also can be reasoned with when awake but at night time it's totally different. Tonight she had both sides and was nearly asleep but my nipple had such deep teeth marks in it I had to take her gently off the breast. I explained why and put on a t-shirt but it then took a full hour and half of sobbing in my arms before she went to sleep. DH and I do not feel that she has the emotional maturity to deal with any of this at the moment. She also has cerebral palsy and has only just learnt to crawl in the last few weeks - she has good language and understanding but seems to be emotionally like a much younger baby. I don't know how much her SN affect her relationship with me and with breastfeeding. I know it has always been a huge comfort at times when things have been pretty crap for her.

I'm hoping they'll be someone out there who can give me a bit of support as I am passionate about BF and want to carry on but it is a bit pants at the moment.

[policywonk]

Can I just say you are NOT the only fool in Britain bfing an older child to sleep - I'm still feeding DS2 to sleep and he's nearly three, so you have some way to go before you are as foolish as me.

To state the bleeding obvious, you need to get the latch/teeth thing sorted out and I'm guessing for that you would need to see a specialist counsellor - have you tried contacting La Leche League or Association of Btreastfeeding Mothers or one of them lot?

As to the early-morning feed stuff, this sounds a lot like DS2; he's pretty much permanently latched on from about 6am until whenever I get up. The difference for me is that I'm co-sleeping with him in a superking bed (with DP), so at least I can get some snooking in in relative comfort. Is co-sleeping an option for you?

Sorry to hear that things are difficult - lack of sleep is a complete bugger isn't it.

[policywonk]

snooking? wtf is snooking? it sounds pretty good!

But what I do is snoozing

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

DS used to leave teethmarks sometimes. Sometimes it was because he had new teeth coming through - other times it was because he had gotten lazy with his latch. It was a matter of pulling him off (sticking finger in his mouth between his teeth/jaw), nad putting him back on but yanking his chin down with my finger.

He'd get better for a few weeks and get lazy again and I'd have to do the same.

Re night feeds - DS was also like this. At 10.5 months i'd had enough of between 1 and 3 times a night. I decided to do something about it to protect my sanity (Had PND and just couldnt do it anymore). Camped out in his room one night and then prepared to stay there and and pat him to sleep if he woke - so I wasnt abandoning him - I was there - but he was in his cot and I was on the floor next to him with my arms through the bars. It only really took 1 night - the second night he woke once and went off to sleep really quickly.

HTH.

I know how annoying it is when folk flippantly say "well stop b/feeding then".

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

I thought snooking sounded quite sweet actually PW

[policywonk]

Yes, I daresay DS2 and I do snook quite a bit when there's no one looking.

[crimplene]

Hi Jenkywoo

I haven't got long this evening, but I know what you mean and I just wanted to answer your post. Your DD sounds a lot like my DS. He's 19 mo and has a visual impairment and I know where you're coming from about SN children seeming younger and needing more comforting for longer. I really think that stopping bf at this stage would set him back a lot in his confidence. He seems very capable to a lot of people so they're not exactly supportive (a teacher at the SN playgroup we go to was describing extended bfing as 'disgusting' when I said that I am still bfing DS, even though lots of the other mothers there are keeping going for the same kinds of reasons). I also know about the teeth marks on the nips and find it very frustrating at times too, esp. when DS is teething and just chews and chews when he's going to sleep - and screams if I detach him.

Will look in again tomorrow but have to go now.

[OverRated]

Can only echo what every one else on here has said but wanted to be supportive and let you know I had read this.

You are most definitley not the only person to be BF a toddler to sleep. If I hadn't been foreced to stop BF, I am sure I would be doing it too

[harpsichordcarrier]

jenky you are doing a marvellous thing, really you are.
I think you are in absolutely the best position to know what is best for your dd. she obviously gets a huge amount out of it.
really need to go to bed but really you have every support
HC xx

[kiskidee]

the teeth marks and not opening mouth wide enough - normal as dd does this too and yes, I do also yank her chin down a bit.

I seem to remember dd went through a period of bad latch when her molars were coming through. Is this happening? if so, it can explain why she won't latch on better.

I also bf a nearly 3yo to sleep so I must be a bigger fool than you. I love it.

the limpet latch happens at mine from 5am onwards. like pw said, we cosleep so it makes it easier to deal with. I seem to find that if she doesn't nap enough during the day, the limpet latch is worse.

i think it is fantastic to keep bf your dd. with her just learning to crawl, she is probably finding the development stage stressfull and this is normal. dd found her growing independence v. stressful at times right up to 2.5yo. Breastfeeding was a great way to calm her down and give her her confidence back.

[Slink]

my dd is one and i am breastfeeding her and have mastisis gp said i was mad but you know she is teething she has flu and she needs me xxxx

[VictorianSqualor]

I never managed to get to this far bfing but just wanted to say you are not a fool.

[moondog]

I am passionate about breastfeeding and aslo a salt for people with SN of various sorts. Have worked with a lot of very small babies and would say that breastfeeding is extra specially wonderful for children with SN for lots and lots of reasons.

Crimplene,it was bloody criminal of the teacher at your SN playgroup to describe extended breastfeeding as 'disgusting'. I am appalled.

[Jenkeywoo]

Thank you all for your replies. You see I knew I was not the only one left but I don't really know anyone in RL still breastfeeding and it's got to that crap stage where I can't complain about dd at all without it all being because I STILL breastfeed etc etc! Even when I go to breastfeeding group I am surrounded by new mums and I know that some of them are pro-breastfeeding but not neccessarily pro-extended breastfeeding.

I think the latch thing is our biggest problem (but I couldn't see that when I posted last night). She is teething but the fangs not molars although I'm sure it could still make a difference. I always wonder about when you hear that a poor latch stops them feeding properly - dd's poor latch does not stop her and I can often still feel the milk rushing out like when she was a newborn. I will ask at breastfeeding group although I think they don't have a lot of experience of breastfeeding toddlers and if I can't get help I'm going to get it from somewhere else. It would be daft if it all became too much over a lazy latch.

Weirdly after all of the faff last night she then went on to sleep through the night until 7am! We have co-slept fully until recently and are now in the process of moving her into her own room. I found if she was in my bed we disturbed her when we came up to bed so she was fitting in another sneaky feed at about midnight then still waking about 4am. She actually has a kingsize bed (it was what was in her room when it was still the spare room so to speak) so at least if I get into bed with her it's in relative comfort.

It's great to know that there are others out there doing the same things as me and thank you as I needed a little boost so I can be strong enough to keep doing what I know is right for my little girl.

Crimplene - thank you, sounds like you're in a very similar position.

Policywonk - snooking sounds lovely - it could be secret code for that in between sleep when you have a toddler hanging off your nipple kind of sleep that we all do!

[whomovedmychocolate]

I've also had teeth issues with molars coming through - I solved it (so far) by holding my boob in exactly the right direction and holding her head with my other hand (sounds weird I know but then I can control where her mouth goes exactly) and it stops the chewing thing.

Also I only feed lying down now, which does seem to help because DD is basically pinned to a pillow and can't drag my nipple when she pulls away.

Oh and she has NEVER come off of her own accord, since the day she was born! I think some of them are just 10% limpet that's all

[Jenkeywoo]

10% limpet... could be interesting if we looked at their DNA!

[crimplene]

Jenkeywoo

I had a think about this. DS has always had a horrible latch and he's bitten since birth; it can be good when he really wants milk and want to get it out efficiently, but the more he's sucking for psychological reasons rather then nutrition, the more likely he is to dig his teeth in or crush the end of my nip so it looks like a lipstick. I don't let him latch on by himself, I try to make him open his mouth and I always keep control of what's going where just like the instructions for a newborn; I always have to detach him and I have to do it by sliding a finger in very quick in to the gap in his teeth, not just to break the suction, but to stop his jaws clamping to 'hold on'. More gin-trap than limpet.

I detach him repeatedly until he gets it right sometimes. It's worse when he's teething and if the chewing gets too much I put on the light and administer Calpol. It has reduced me to tears on occasion, maybe once or twice, but usually just when DS's teething's very bad.

We've had some success with a last minute bedtime snack - usually yoghurt and toast so DS sleeps through for longer. I think there was a stage when he was getting peckish at night and just bfing for long periods to fill up and as he was dozing his latch would be horrible.

I really hope it gets better - it is worth it. How are you moving your DD into her own bed? we don't have the room spare yet but I'd like to get DS into a separate bed at some point. He seems to be able to vault out of a cot so a bed seems a better option.

Moondog; this teacher's well-known for being ignorant and opinionated; fortunately she's on the verge of retirement, but she comes out with such gems every week. She also feeds under-ones amongst others on crisps and long life skimmed milk for a snack. She was teaching our DCs how to get childproof lids off medicine bottles the other week. Unfortunately, because she's a teacher her words do carry too much weight with some mothers. All the bfing women at the group apart from me and one other either take a bottle just for playgroup or go and hide to bf. Nobody wants to say anything much as we all have to have a long term relationship with the service.

[whomovedmychocolate]

I have been known to smear DDs gums with teething gel before feeds (when she's teething obv.) it numbs her gums so she doesn't bite, but if she does, it also numbs your nips

[ScarlettOHairy]

Just wanted to add my support. I still bf my 3.8 year old dd and occasionally we have little discussions about how she will soon be ready to stop, but to be honest, I love bfing her. I still sometimes bf her to sleep too, although not every night. It is the most lovely cuddle in the world imo.

[Jenkeywoo]

whomovedmychocolate - great tip about the teething gel, numb nips sound quite nice at the moment compared to painful nips.

Crimplene - moving dd to a bed has been 'relatively' easy for us as she has never slept in a cot - she went from moses basket to co-sleeping and now into her big bed. Before xmas she was really not keen on her bed so we ended up letting her sleep in our superking bed and we slept in her kingsize bed for a couple of weeks till must have smelled a bit more like us and not like a new room! we then moved her back into her bed and it seems to have worked(ish). We don't have the problem of her getting out of bed as she's only just crawling but I'm sure it won't be long! with my other dd we just put spare duvets and pillows on the floor and let her get herself out of bed.

[kiskidee]

oh, yes, when the fangs were coming out, my nips were in a dreadful state. lanisoh and some coaxing of her to adjust. I don't think it is 'lazy latch' I think she'll be latching on how it is comfortable for her to feed.

[moondog]

Crimplene,I'm even more crestfallen with what you have said.
Why the hell should you be furtive about what is the best way to feed your child.
I'd be putting in an official complaint myself. I know yuo probably have a lot on your plate anyway,but honestly,nothing changes unless we challenge the status quo.

in a similar vein (sort of) I am reading a fascinating book about the history of midwifery. I was appalled to discover that the women who first made efforts to regulate midwifery were treated as lunatics and perverts with ideas above their station. Criticism came chiefly from (male) doctors who despite their lack of expertise,were making a fortune by attending births.

Do you want other women to suffer like you have done?

[crimplene]

Moondog I agree - but then the SN angle comes into play. This woman has enough influence to make it either very hard or very easy for DS to get a statement and we're applying in 6 months. It would be very easy for her to just get DS removed from the playgroup if she takes a dislike, as there's no legal right for him to be there. We know we're going to have some battles with this service in the future (and we've still got to deal with them for the next 17 years) as we clearly differ quite radically from them over the type of education that DS should have - and I want our first battle to take place after the statement's in place.

In just about any other circumstance, I'd be sorting it out so that other women don't have the take the same cr*p; but in this case I know that I'm not in a strong enough position to do it.

I do feel passionately that bfing for longer with many SN children can be very beneficial(including lots with VIs). I am involved in putting things about this together for publication in the hope that more mothers who bf SN children feel encouraged and supported. But I just know I can't tackle this one head on, however much it riles me as the potential cost to DS to too high.

[moondog]

Crimplene,I understand what you are saying.
I know only too well about the nightmare that is provision and statementing.

How about you writing a long diatribe after you have what you want (ie a statement) and after she has gone?

Are there any parent forums you can sit on?

In my area,a go-getting father found out about a place for a parent on a forum and got elected.Is now in a position to have a proper voice.Council hadn't seen fit to mention it to anyone of course.

[LiegeAndLief]

Re the teeth marks, I am having a very similar problem with 17 month old ds who has molars coming through. I always hold his head when he is latching on and force as much of my breast as I can manage into his mouth with the other hand (that's not as horrible as it sounds!), a bit like when you're first feeding a newborn and they don't have a wide enough latch, which works sometimes. But he does tend to slip down during the feed. I thought maybe it's more painful for him to open his mouth wide because of the teething, as it's quite a recent problem. Haven't dared to complain to anyone though, as like you I'm usually greeted with "why don't you stop feeding him then?"! I don't know anything about children with cerebral palsy so this advice might be inappropriate, but I think if you don't want to be feeding her at 5am you might just have to ride out the screaming for a couple of nights (maybe send dh in to comfort her) - if you don't give in chances are she will get used to it very quickly.

I think it's brilliant that you're still feeding her, and I'm sure it's a great comfort to her. I have weaned ds off his night feeds but that was because I wanted to go out over Christmas and leave dh to put him to bed ; I'm sure there is no reason to wean her at any time if you're both happy with it.