Close to giving up with 4month old ds2, using nipple shields, dreadful latch, help!

[accessorizewithbabysick]

Please, I do want to be persuaded to keep on with this, I find some things about breastfeeding really lovely but nearly every feed is uncomfortable because he just won't latch properly & never really has. I was in tears today and yesterday because of this, it's like an endurance contest & my neck, shoulders & back (and nipples of course) are aching so much I'm taking pain killers every day.

I started using nipple shields from birth nearly because they're flat, managed to get him off them to some extent but can't get him to gape properly so often end up going back to shields as my nipples hurt so much. Have rung the NCT 3 times, had a BFC come to see me and also rang La Leche last week. They've suggested lots of things, and I've tried them all but I really feel that now it's either put up with the pain & discomfort or go onto formula. I want to keep onto until 6 months because of asthma & eczema in the family, but this is just ruling my life & I can't take any more of it like this. He feeds about 7 times during the day & sleeps 12 hours at night which is my salvation thus far.

Any more advice, can I pay for a bfc to come and see me as the NCT one just suggested lying back on lots of pillows & letting him crawl up me. Which was fine, but doesn't really work in a cafe on a straight backed chair. Thanks so much

[Lazycow]

This sounds pretty awful for you

I assume someone has checked for tongue tie. Other than that I am at a bit of a loss really as to what to suggest. By now the pain should really be better. Maybe someone who knows more will come along and help.

Having said that I breastfed ds for two years and it was pretty painful for the whole time. Of course it was not agony otherwise I'd have stopped but I almost never had a feed which wasn't painful on my nipples - sometimes very painful. No-one ever solved the problem (Ds has now weaned) and as I said although the first few weeks were agony it definitely improved so that it was bearable later (though tbh I never really enjoyed a feed except for a handful of occasions when it didn't hurt and then I remember thinking 'ahh so that's what everyone means by it being enjoyable')

I now belive this was a combination of ds's mild tongue tie and small mouth and my large flat nipples.

[Lazycow]

Just wanted to add- my experience is unusaul - most women find that any pain on breastfeeind stops well before 4 months.

You have done an amazing job continuing so far - I take my hat off to you !!

[determination]

All i would suggest is silverette from breastfeedingheaven.co.uk i used themwhen i had major, deep, open gashes on my nipples and i was completely healed within 48 hours. They are sterling silver and are worn in between feeds. they r for healing damaged nipples and also can be used to prevent damage. They are £24.99 so aare quite pricey but then how many tins of formula could that buy?... prob just 1-2 weeks worth? this could mean u bf for another 6 months.. i would swear by them.

good luck, hope u can continue and bf painfree.

[KatieMorag]

sorry no advice, just admiration for sticking with it so long

and bumping for you

[margo1974]

tiktok?

[Mojomummy]

have you thought of taking him to a cranial osteopath ? sometimes babies can't actually open their mouths enough to get a good latch & the osteopath may be able to help with any tension he has in his jaw area.

Well done for keeping going

I friend of mine has flat nipples, I'm sure she said she used something to help hers 'pop' out. I can ask her & get back to you.

[Rumpel]

I've got flat nips too - I caved in at 31/2 weeks and gave her 1 bottle of formula at night (she had lost so much weight it was terrible). I kept this up until she was about 2 months and then started giving her bf and ff together. I know it makes you feel really guilty but you need to do what is best for you and baby surely. If you are in pain all the time it can't be nice for you or baby - you've done it for a good few months and should congratulate yourself for that. Why don't you think about trying both - at least it would take some of the pressure off of you. I still bf morning and night and we are both quite happy with that she is 6 months now. best luck whatever you decide to do.

[accessorizewithbabysick]

Thanks for all the support, I really appreciate that. I really don't know how you managed it for 2 years lazycow, why did you keep on for so long if it was painful (if you don't mind my asking)?
No-one has checked for tongue tie, what would be the thing to look out for? I guess I've assumed that coz he's managed a few times to get a proper gape/latch, that it's just being used to the shields/dummy that's made him lazy and now I can't retrain him! Hadn't thought that it was something wrong with his tongue or mouth. He can open his mouth pretty wide the rest of the time, tho...
Flat nips aren't really such a problem anymore, he can latch on despite them it's just he does it in such a crap way.
I have used a bit of formula, but cos I mixed-fed with ds1 for a few weeks & my supply dwindled I'm a bit wary of it. I try to express so's to get a break now and again but he feeds so much during the day there's little opportunity esp with a 3yo requiring my attention too.
I'll wait and see if any more helpful responses on here, and ring la leche again after easter. I just so want to keep going, largely because he loves it so much, he seems so happy with it and we've bonded so well. I feed him on the bed just before bathtime nearly every night & that's not painful or uncomfortable for some reason (although he still doesn't latch properly) and gives me hope.
Writing all of this & reading other posts makes me realise that I've got it fairly easy compared to others, never had bleeding nips for a start. I guess I just expected it to be easier by now, not the daily struggle I find it to be.

[gybegirl]

I had a load of problems with latching on when my DD was a newborn... to cut a long story short try looking at www.drjacknewman.com On his website are video clips you can download and look at when it's convenient to you. I spent about 2 hours one evening just looking at two 3 minute clips over and over again. By the end of that I really found I knew when my DD was on properly and when I had to take her off and start again. (It took about another 3 weeks after that to become completely comfortable). My BF counsellor knew about his website and approved so it's not like he's telling you stuff which is against all the other advice. Good luck, my DD has just turned one and we're still at it!

[Lazycow]

Ahh a good question - Why did I keep doing it? Probably a combination of factors

1 - I am pretty bloody minded when I set my mind to something

2 I had PND which made bonding with ds difficult and some part of me understood that I needed to make myself indispensible at first otherwise there was a real danger I might walk away. Later when the PND eased and I could have given up on bfeeding I geniunely could never work out how to be organised enough to do formula and bottles etc. All the advice about switching to formula was of the 'replace one feed at a time type. Well ds's feeds were pretty unpredictable so I also could never work out how to make the change.

3 Despite giving one bottle of ebm a day from early on (4 weeks old) ds just got more and more reluctant to take a bottle so giving him milk from a bottle started taking ages just when the breastfeeding starting taking less time.

As I say the pain wasn't bad all the time though occasionally it was bordering on unbearable. I would say though that most feeds were uncomfortable or worse.

I never really loved it but I kept doing it because ds liked it (though thankfully he was never a cluster feeding type baby) and because as he got older it got more enjoyable. It always hurt but I liked feeding a toddler more than a baby. I didn't have to do it all the time and ds was just more fun to feed as he got older.

I suppose that as ds got to 1 year old I was reluctant to stop just when it was slightly more enjoyable. My feeling was kind of 'Well I did it for a year and I really didn't like it, I'm certainly not stopping now that it is more fun'


You have used shields for quite a long time (I only used them for about 5-6 weeks I think) so he may have got lazy in his latch.

Funnily enough the occasions when when it didn't hurt for me tended to be the late night feeds (Not early evening or middle of the night as those were often the worst) and sometimes the first feed of the morning wasn't too bad either.

[accessorizewithbabysick]

Lazycow, I can why it just snowballed for you. I never thought to get to 4 months quite frankly, managed 8 or 9 weeks with ds1, was so miserable with it. I do see about the pnd, I had it too with ds1 & I'd read enough to think that bf might help me avoid it 2nd time round.

I think he is lazy with the latch, most definitely, I just can't figure out how to solve that. I often take him on and off several times & try not to put up with a really painful latch. I did look at the newman site a while back, ggirl, I'll go back to it & see if there are any ideas. I did stare at one video over and over trying to figure it out to no avail.

I guess that if I really want to keep on I'll find ways to do it & I do feel proud to have made it this far.

[KatyR]

Hi there
Firstly well done for perservering for so long, I thought I was stubborn! I had similar problems to you when I first started and was stubborn about it and am almost happily bfing 5 month old. (I say almost she has developed an annoying habit of pulling her head away whilst firmly latched, yeeeech!!!) However I could not have done it without my cranial osteopath, as mm mentioned earlier. My dd wouldn't open her mouth enough to latch properly and was making my nips (also flat!) very very sore. Took her to osteopath (theres a brilliant mother and baby one on harley street if you are in London and not as expensive as you are imagining probably as I said 'harley street'!Or can get a name for you if you like?) who said her birth (three days of having her head bashed against my pelvis with contractions - I didn't enjoy it much either!) made her head a bit squashed up and it was hard for her to open her mouth properly, due to misaligned things, sorry for vague ness, tired and don't understand the ins and outs of it fully, just know its brilliant! I can't recommend it highly enough if you can. I also had the baby climbing up me advice from NCT councillor, didn't actually get round to it though. Best of luck and let me know if you need the number of an approved osteo near you

[gybegirl]

Accessorize... wishing you lots of luck. Bumping in case anyone else has some more ideas.

[lillochum]

Well done Accessorize hanging in there so long. I had short nipples, and used a nipple shield for 3 months with DD1. I tried giving up at 2 weeks, but even with help couldn't manage it, but DD1 suddenly latched on like a pro at 3 months while I was still trying to get the nipple shield out of the sterilising solution. I fed her until she was 13 months, without the shield. With my 3rd child I managed without nipple shields, though painfully to start with. However, with DD2 I fed with nipple shields right until she gave up at 15 months. She is a heart child, and was quite weak until her surgery, with a small mouth and jaw too. If nipple shields have worked for you, why not carry on? I stubbornly resisted any formula because there are shed-loads of allergies in both families. I like to think it at least contributed to the fact that none of my kids have any allergies so far, (now 8, 7, and 4yrs). Best of luck whatever you decide.

[margo1974]

And don't get disheartened about the formula. I mix fed for a while (From 2 x 4 oz bottles to just one a night) and now I am back to exclusively b/f. It didn't affect my supply, I think she b/f a bit more the first few days but settled down after that.

I do admire you. I had sore nipples for about 2 weeks and it was agony.

Your DS is very lucky to have a mum who loves him so much.

[KatyR]

Hi
Also meant to say don't beat yourself up about giving bottles of formula too, I did it too and am now back to exclusive bfing.
Info for Osteopathic centre for children at www.occ.uk.com/ its a charity and you give what you can afford...
Best of luck, x

[accessorizewithbabysick]

Thanks Katy and Margo. Did give him a little bit of formula last week and tried not to feel guilty about it, it was so I could put my other son to bed for once! When I ring la leche back, I'll ask about the osteopath thing as well. I am actually more determined now to solve the problems and stick with it as I'm convinced ff would be the wrong way to go for us and cause more probs than it solves.

[Runninglate]

You have probably tried this anyway but I had flat nipples when I started bfing DD (for some reason they are not so flat now 4 months on, although occasionally I have to give them a twiddle) but one of my many helpers got me holding and squeezing my boob so that the nipple and areola were more flat (a bit like you are squeezing one end of a balloon to force the air right to the the very end) and then DD could latch on to the whole 'end section'. When they are sucking it all falls flat against the roof of their mouth anyway. Have you tried this and does it make any difference?

[twinklemeagain]

Accessorize - big hugs coming your way. I was in the same position as you and it was only just starting to get better by 4 months, but I was using a lot of formula as well by then. I was in tears at nearly every feed.

It is true that the nipple shields might have made him lazy with his latch. I'd also say though that if you're still going strong at 4 months then they can't be affecting your supply too much, which would be the main reason for not using them as I understand it.

It really is worth getting your DS checked for tongue tie as my DS's was only discovered at 5 months when it was already too late to save our breastfeeding . The NCT BFC didn't spot it, neither did any of the midwives or doctors. The main things to look for would be whether his tongue looks "heart-shaped" with a kind of notch at the end when he cries - that's caused by the piece of skin (frenulum) that attaches the tongue to the bottom of the mouth being too short. It really can interfere with the latch and make breastfeeding extremely painful. FWIW, my DS never opened his mouth properly to feed either which can also be related to tongue tie.

this article on the Babyfriendly website has a lot of information. There are other articles on the site as well which you can find by searching on tongue tie.

I do hope your LO hasn't got tongue tie, and do be aware that it may not be possible to have anything done if he does have it. But FWIW I found it helpful to have a reason for our problems, even though it was too late.

HTH!

[accessorizewithbabysick]

Thanks so much twinkle and runninglate. I don't have so much of a problem with him latching onto flat nipples anymore, they have come out a bit as time went on luckily, it's just turned into another problem!
Twinkle, will go and have a look at his tongue and see if it is tongue tie, would be good in a way as the problem might be solved then. I don't have a supply problem at all, I just find nipple shields are a PITA and they make the feeds soooo much longer. If I manage without them on some feeds, they're more like 15 mins as opposed to 30 min. I'd like to able to spend more time with my 3 year old and I'm sat feeding a lot at present and sometimes in tears so that's no good.

[thehairybabysmum]

Hello accessorize...i had the same problem as you, BF always painful with my DS and i eventually gave up at 4.5 months. Like you i really wanted to bf until at least 6 months as i was really worried about eczema.

As it happened he got eczema anyway although now he is 16 mths it has nearly cleared up as long as we cream him twice a day.

I found it really hard to make the decision to give up, was guilt stricken about it and it really upset me at the time worrying about doing what was best for ds and feeling selfish.

Once i did actually give up it was such an immediate relief though...the joy of feeding him without it hurting and not sitting there in tears was heaven. I was pleasantly surprised to find it wasnt the end of the world as id been expecting.

Im not trying to be controversial or saying you should stop, just that overall if giving up means that you are happier and that you also have more time for your older child then that is a good thing too and should be ballanced into your decision. I think the hormonal side of bf has a massive effect on how you feel and making you feel guilty for thinking about stopping.

BF for as long as you have will have given your baby lots of benefits already.

I do sympathise, i remember how hard it was for me (and i only had one at the time) and really feel for you. Good luck if you do carry on.

[Lazycow]

accessorise

One last thing. As everyone has said you have done fantastically so far and I hope you get this problem sorted as it seems you want to continue breastfeeding.

If however bfeeding continues to be unenjoyable but bearable (as it was for me), one of the ways I coped was to try and forget all the things about how breastfeding was supposedd to be enjoyable.

Dh and I started to have a running joke about it and this made it easier to cope with. I let go of the 'ideal' of breastfeeding and just dealt with the reality of it for me. I still got upset sometimes and found it difficult but I did just get on with it (a bit like the sleepless nights) and that seemed to help a bit.

Remember if it gets really unbearable you can give up and it really is OK. Anyone who is finding it difficult and hard work after 4 months has tried very hard to make it work.

I am hoping you solve it though. If it is tongue tie, do try and get it sorted sooner rather than later. With ds I tried at 8 months to get it sorted (have the tie divided) but was told that after about 6/7 months they would want to use an anaesthetic so it would have to wait until he was over two as they felt a general anaesthetic was an unacceptable risk in a young baby unless really essential (dividing a tongue tie isn't). A very young baby can have it done without a general anaesthetic.

Your baby is probably still young enough to have a tongue tie snip without a general but you will need to be quite insistent with your doctor as the general rule now is that tongue tie isn't something to do anything aboout despite the fact that many women find it interfers with breastfeeding.

Of course it may not be a tongue tie in which case (as I've said) I'm not sure what else it could be.

[wigglebum]

Hi wanted to say re the eczema I bf my dd and she is covered in it, so don't beat yourself up about it at all...
Best of luck and hope you find a solution soon

[Lio]

Hi, I actually think that until my nipples 'came out' a bit (after weeks of bf) it all went much more smoothly. I used a hand pump before feeds to give both dc's at least something to aim for Might that help? And apart from that, I kept on going to see a bf counsellor for the first 5 months or so as well, just to keep on the straight and narrow. She never got sick of me

[lillochum]

Hi Accessorize, I hope you get back to comfy boobs with or without formula.
I suppose the pain is strictly in your nipple? If you get stabbing sensations radiating from the nipple right into your breast when you feed it might be thrush. I had thrush in my left breast when my son was about 6 months - absolute agony feeding while it lasted. There were no external signs of thrush with either of us, though it can give babies thrush in their mouths. Getting medication can be very difficult because the treatment isn't licensed for breastfeeding mums, but it did go away on it's own eventually. Best of luck.