Help! 4month old wont settle at breast!

[Busyalexsmummy]

Dont know whats going on with ds, he'll be 4 months on the 27th and was exclusively breastfed for 4 wks, then I was giving a top-up bottle in the evenings as I couldnt cope with the constant feeding. He is now breastfed all day until 3pm, when he 5oz of formula-so that he will go down for a nap at the same time as my 2yr old. he then wakes at approx 5pm, and is breastfed until 8pm, when he has anougher 6oz of formula, and then usually thats it for the night and hes down until 7am or so the following morning.
The last week or so, hes becoming very difficult to feed, he starts crying because hes hungry, but then when I put him on, hes on and off and on and off.I thought initially he had wind so have tried burping him, sometimes this is the case, but he still wont settle, he just keeps coming off every few sucks. And when I do bring him off to burp him, he goes mental, screaming the house down!
Im finding it hard to deal with as my 2yr old is being very demanding lately and its hard anough trying to cope with him without a baby that wont just settle down and feed!
What could be the problem?

[tiktok]

It could be he is just being a bit 'funny' for no special reason.....on the other hand, it's worth thinking about your milk supply. He's having quite a lot of formula, but more importantly, I think he'd benefit (and your milk supply would benefit) from more feeds. By my reckoning, he's having a bf 4-5 times in 24 hours, yes? With a long gap overnight?

Sometimes, mothers' milk supply can withstand this lack of stim. for a while, and then when the baby needs a bit more (growth spurt or whatever) some weeks down the line, it's just not there in sufficient quantity...if it is this, answer is to bf more often, sorry, 'cos I bet this is not what you want to hear! It's also harder to bf a baby who is already cross....but it can be done.

[Busyalexsmummy]

is 11oz quite alot then? cant remember how much ff ds1 was having at this age...

[blueshoes]

Busy, I don't know if my experience is particularly relevant. My dd was 4 months when she started getting unsettled, crying at b-feeds. She had just had surgery and immediately after was fed expressed milk via a bottle (the hospital needed to ration her intake and therefore did not allow b-fs). I think expressing for 3 days really reduced my supply. Once the hospital gave the ok, I gave up on bottles and went back to exclusive breastfeeding. I struggled with dd for another 2 weeks, day and night, and then suddenly things were fine again.

[blueshoes]

BTW, I don't think my dd drank more than 11 oz a day of anything at 4 months. But she was a dinky doo.

[Twiga]

Are you sore at all? Fussing at the breast can sometimes be an indicator for thrush - their poor wee mouths get sore and can cause them to come on and off during feeding. If your nipples are sore then it may be worth checking out - you'd both need treatment. Probably not much help but is fresh in my mind as dd and I just getting over a bout of it.

[beartime]

Hi Busy! I mentioned this on the Nov. thread - but mine's been doing exactly the same thing, and just at the last feed at night. But what works is just switching sides when he starts popping off. He feeds for about 5-10mins then starts popping off, so I try and wind him but if he cries then I put him on the other side, and repeat. I usually change sides about 5 times! This is the only feed I have to do this but it seems to be what he wants. Maybe he's thirsty so wants just foremilk to start off with or something?

I have wondered if its milk supply too though, because they do say your evening milk supply is the lowest usually. So maybe he 'empties' one side (I know you can't totally empty) and then wants the other, and then by the time he's done with that one there's a bit more in the other side etc. Cos I have noticed that my norks are smaller at that time than any other time in the day. But I think he must be getting enough even with all that because he's not waking up in the night - I will wait for him to wake up in the night b4 I start to feed him more often I think.

The only other thing I could think of was that maybe he was overstimulated but then switching sides wouldn't help. So I think its more likely to be low milk supply in the evening.

HTH

Just thought I should add that to the thread cos your situation sounds so similar to mine.

[Busyalexsmummy]

Hmmmm, I have no idea, he doesnt just do it in the evening, in fact, the evening b/feeds are probably the most settled...one thing I am thinking is maybe its because of ds1? ds1 does tend to give a clout round the head every now and again(or at least try) and maybe thats un-nerving him?
Oh I dont know??

[tiktok]

Busy, tes, 11 ounces is qute a lot when he is only having a few breastfeeds....I think, from what you say, that it is supply.

[tiktok]

tes=yes

[Busyalexsmummy]

ok, will start evening expessing today at 3pm when he goes for nap and tonight after he goes down, that'll bring my supply back up then?

[beartime]

Also they do say babies become very distractible at this age so to feed in a quiet room?

[tiktok]

Expressing should help, but why not just feed him more? :) Wouldn't that be easier??

[genuinely puzzled]

[Elf1981]

My DD went through the same thing around this time (she's now 23 weeks). She was exclusively breastfed but would pop off all the time and then get frustrated.
I started feeding her lying down on the bed / sofa, rolling her body next to mine so she is lying on her side when feeding. Dont know why but she'd then feed properly. (Think it could be as she was getting to a nosy stage but lying down wasnt anything but me to look at?).
Most feeds now are lying down (lazy mornings in bed, feeds at night etc) but she will now settle for a feed sitting up which is handy for when we're out and about.

[Busyalexsmummy]

tiktok-not really as ive tried giving ebm at 3pm nap and at bedtime before, and it doesnt work as well at settling him as formula-ie if i give ebm he'll go from 3-3.45 pm ish, rather than till 5pm and same at bed, if i feed him/give ebm he'll go from 8pm till about 10pm rather than 8-12(dreamfeed f/f at 12, then right through the night most nights) with formula
(ps i know that sounds selfish, but with a 2yr old too, i really need a bit of time for myself, so when they go down at 3pm, its sigh of relief and relax for 5 mins!)

did 20mins pumping when he was down at 3pm, so what should I do when i put him down at 8pm? how often/how long should i express for? I was thinking for 20mins on the hr every hr till i go to bed??

[Busyalexsmummy]

beartime-cant feed in a quiet room, ds1 would have a field day, he'd be ringing 999/jumping out the window/climbing up the bookcase....etc etc etc.... just cant do that, impossible

[beartime]

can you give ds1 something special to play with while you're feeding so he's quiet and you're not stressed out? Cos I'd forgotten but me just making a determined effort to relax helps the popping off thing too - I think he senses my stress levels sometimes! (tho' if its milk supply that wouldn't help!)

[2Happy]

Busy, my ds did this, but he was older, more 5/6months ish I think ( good grief, he's only 9 months old now, you'd think I could remember!). I put it down to him just getting more interested in the outside world and being very distractable (I vividly remember bfing on Christmas day being a nightmare). He settled down by himself in time, though can still do it if there's lots going on round him. I just got a nursing necklace yesterday, and am hoping that will help a little. (Though I wouldn't for one second disagree with Tiktok, I'm just randomly posting my own experiences; she'll know if what I'm describing is common/can happen at your ds's age) If you think a nursing necklace might help, try \link{http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1910&threadid=154805\this}

[Busyalexsmummy]

ive got a nursing neclace! not helping so far, but at 15wks, hes not particulary intrested in it yet...

[2Happy]

Ah. So much for my bright ideas then!

[tiktok]

busy - the point of all this is to increase the frequency with which you 'use' your breasts, and not to leave long gaps between feeds (so don't give ebm instead of a bf - that just means there's a long gap and this will depress your supply). Still not really understanding all the parameters here, so can't help much more - but that's the principle!

[Busyalexsmummy]

sorry, that was probably unlear what i said, what i meant was from now on, to express when i give bottle at 3pm(instead of just waiting till the next feed as ive done the past 8 weeks or so) and express every night in the evenings right up till i go to bed, as to keep supply optimum?

[blueshoes]

busy, I think expressing is not as efficient at stimulating/maintaining supply than actual b-fing. It might work for you. But I expressed day and night for 3 days when dd could not bf in hospital but my supply still dipped drastically.

[beartime]

Maybe you could breastfeed him at 8pm and 10pm and then formula at 12 so you get an extra couple of breastfeeds in - a few nights might be enough to get your supply back up?

[mears]

Busyalexmummy - in my experience, the more formula you give, the more likely your breastfeeding will hit the wall. If you want to preserve breastfeeding then I would stop all formula feeds and just breastfeed to get the supply boosted. Expressing is time consuming and sould destroying at times. I would only recommend that if you have a sleeping baby and full boobs and want to build up a stock. Babies guts get irritated by chopping and changing between formula and breastmilk. Some babies cope with it, others do not.

Babies often settle for longer when they initially get formula, but when established on formula feeds they can digest it just as quick. You will be surprised at how well a baby can settle and sleep on breast milk alone.
Get someone to take your 2 year old off your hands for a couple of days and concentrate on concentrated breastfeeds for a couple of dsays. Will pay dividends in the end.

[mears]

BTW, babies get more milk out of breasts and stimulate supply much better than expressing. Sipping a nice relaxing glass of wine in the evening too boosts supply