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Guest blog: Nigella, Saatchi and the media - it's time to call violence against women by its name

(172 Posts)
KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 18-Jun-13 10:34:12



Yesterday, following the publication of images which showed him grasping his wife Nigella Lawson by the throat, Charles Saatchi was cautioned by police for assault.

The initial publication of the photographs sparked a flurry of media comment, some of which appeared to sail perilously close to out-and-out victim blaming. Here, columnist and Mumsnet blogger Glosswitch says it's time to call violence by its name.



"When a man presses his hands around his partner?s throat, what should we call it? A 'row'? A 'violent dispute'? Or perhaps it's nothing more than a 'playful tiff'? After all, these things happen. Perhaps you've had similar 'playful tiffs' yourself.

Like most women, I've grown to be wary of the tiff, the domestic, the bust-up. Casual language masks a far more brutal reality. You don't have to see violence captured on film to witness fear around you. A friend of mine changed her name and moved to a new town, taking her daughter with her. Fifteen years on, she still lives on self-imposed witness protection, albeit minus the protection. An acquaintance of my mother's didn't leave; her violent partner left her, but only after discovering she had terminal cancer, pain and suffering that for once he couldn't control. A man in our local area stabbed his wife to death. The men said nothing while the women exchanged reassurances about the dead woman having been 'a nag. It's shocking, the things a 'playful tiff' can lead to. So let's not call it that; let's simply call it what it is, and that's violence against women.

I'm aware that this is a loaded phrase. Why not just say 'domestic violence'? 'Violence against women' can be considered disrespectful to male victims of violence, an active dismissal of their suffering, yet it doesn't need to be. It's an important way of recognising that this type of abuse takes place against a very specific cultural backdrop. Like the Mayfair diners too polite to intervene when a woman is terrorised before them, it seems we're too well-mannered to talk about gender. It's too radical, too divisive, 'a bit 1970s'. But how do you address an issue when you're constantly swerving to avoid what lies at the very heart?

In discussions of domestic violence there's an impulse to make things appear equal, as though we're trying to pacify fractious children rather than dealing with a clear-cut issue of right and wrong. We talk about provocation and willed victimhood (an Australian DJ demands people boycott Lawson's books 'until she makes a stand on domestic violence'). We mumble excuses about self-expression and different ways of arguing (Charles Saatchi claims to have 'held Nigella's neck repeatedly while attempting to emphasise [his] point' - as you do - while Christina Odone helpfully describes what occurred as 'a quarrel where the husband jokingly puts his hands round his wife's throat and accidentally hurts her' - oh yeah, one of those! So no harm done then, eh?). Over in the Guardian Roy Greenslade smugly sallies forth as the Voice of Reason, chiding us all for 'a rush to judgment' before quoting Saatchi's bizarre excuses without a trace of scepticism. It seems a woman can be abused in broad daylight and still people will try to suggest all's fair in love and war. But it's not. This isn't a competition, or at least not one that anyone should want to win. It's not about ignoring male victims of violence, but understanding that there's a specific type of fear that many women have to live with - one that's being heightened right this very minute by all those who seek to downplay scenes such as those captured by the Sunday People.

Nick Griffin's tweet in response to the Saatchi incident -If I had the opportunity to squeeze Nigella Lawson, her throat wouldn't be my first choice - is telling. It's about taking ownership of women and their bodies, diminishing them, putting them in their place. And yes, of course this is Nick Griffin, who is hardly all men (thank god). Even so, it's a response to a culture we all recognise. We can easily imagine which bits Griffin wouldn't mind squeezing. Does he mean it? Who knows? The point at which 'ironic' banter merges into out-and-out threat is never quite clear. Charles Saatchi still thinks he's being 'playful' when he's throttling the woman he claims to love.

So where do we go from here? The media that reports on incidents such as that which took place between Saatchi and Lawson is deeply sexist. It tells us what men say and do but only what women look like. It's interested in bare breasts, muffin tops, a female politician's shoes, the tears in a frightened woman's eyes. Of course it's ironic that this prurient interest in women as objects becomes the whole reason why we know of this particular assault (who do you think the camera was there to find - Saatchi or Lawson?). All the same, let's not waste this knowledge by merely skimming the surface.

This isn't about a posh couple having a fight. It isn't a tiff, that short, fluffy, one-syllable word that hides a multitude of sins. It's about power, manipulation and the way in which disrespect for women's bodies and voices is endemic and poisonous. We shouldn't be surprised when these things happen to the Rihannas and the Nigellas - that implies that being non-famous can be accepted as a natural risk factor for being abused. We should however be outraged that a distorted view of what is normal and what is equal might prevent us from tackling this problem with the honesty and compassion it deserves.

stargirl1701 Tue 18-Jun-13 10:37:13

Hear, hear.

Excellent words from Glosswitch, as always.

I have given my own tuppence in this post about how we need to stop normalising this behaviour and declare loudly what a healthy relationship involves.

eehbahmum Tue 18-Jun-13 11:30:55

I knew you'd have something brilliant to say about this.
Although I missed the Nick Griffin tweet and would have been happier if it had stayed that way.

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 11:42:44

great post

listenupnorth Tue 18-Jun-13 11:44:34

After hearing of 2 cases of domestic violence where the women were unable to escape their abusive partners despite injunctions etc & were totally failed by the system, I was inspired to write a radio play 'Oranges & Lemons' which I recorded with local actors:
Part 1: www.listenupnorth.com/drama-page/179-oranges-and-lemons-part-1
Part 2: www.listenupnorth.com/drama-page/180

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 11:49:24

<applauds>

ilovexmastime Tue 18-Jun-13 11:55:41

I completely agree, why doesn't everyone though, it seems so obvious?

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 11:58:20

Glosswitch, what are your thoughts on how the blaming of Nigella has already started ?

hang on a mo, I'll link to the thread

SageBush Tue 18-Jun-13 12:00:04

Really great post.

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 12:02:26

Here...

LeGavrOrf Tue 18-Jun-13 11:53:20
Nigella blaming has started

An Australian DJ has sparked outrage after implying that women should boycott TV cook Nigella Lawson's books until she 'makes a stand on domestic violence'.

Writing about the images on her blog, 3AW DJ Dunleavy, who is known as 'The Queen of Melbourne radio', said: "Nigella, like it or not, you're a beacon for women from all walks of life.

"If you want us to buy your books and watch your shows on how to run our kitchens, then we need you to make a stand on domestic violence."

"Why, at about the same time the pictures went viral on the internet, did Nigella post a picture of a buttered, toasted bagel on her official Twitter page, as though nothing else was on her mind but food?

That’s not the response we were after, Nigella. We think you are strong, beautiful and successful. We imagine your home is warm and smells of cinnamon, and if we dropped in we’d get a hug and a feed.

"We don’t like to think of you cowering from a thug. A man so boldly abusive he had no qualms about attacking you in public."

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigella-lawson-attacked-aussie-dj-1958106

LeGavrOrf Tue 18-Jun-13 12:03:53

I cannot believe the Nigella blaming has already started.

I posted about it yesterday, thinking that her business would suffer because of the whole 'domestic goddess' (which was intended to send herself up anyway) element.

But that Australian DJ (the link in your OP doesn't work) says "If you want us to buy your books and watch your shows on how to run our kitchens, then we need you to make a stand on domestic violence."

Nothing said to Charles Saatchi 'if you want us to attend your gallery, you need to admit that what you have done is wrong, and address your violence to your wife'

Nigella has done nothing wrong, and yet it is her name which is besmirched, her career at risk, her 'brand' devalued.

I am so furious about this. I didn't think the Nigella blaming would start so qucikly.

LeGavrOrf Tue 18-Jun-13 12:04:18

Sorry, xposts with anyfucker.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 12:19:26

Totally agree glosswitch. Great post.

Have you read Saatchi's statement about why he accepted assault.

Absolutely horrifying. It really brings home how abusers don't recognise themselves as such and think it's just how relationships are.

here

I don't like to speculate about other's marriages (but I'm going to) but the fact that everything carried on as normal for the rest of the week is not a sign that everything is OK, but a sign that it's probably not the first time she's been treated in that way.

I really hope they sack him.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/celebritynews/charles-saatchi-taking-caution-for-holding-nigellas-throat-was-better-than-it-hanging-over-all-of-us-8663235.html

KneeDeepInDaisies Tue 18-Jun-13 12:30:44

Excellent post.

Saatchi and Griffin make me angry and sad.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 12:38:50

The reason he took the caution is that he knew he wasn't going to be disadvantaged by it. angry sad Whereas he would be disadvantaged by continued speculation and barrage in the press. He has appeased the masses without any real consequences for him. Typical abuser.

Longdistance Tue 18-Jun-13 12:42:43

I wouldn't listen to any Aussie dj's, they have shit for brains!!!

I don't blame her for not saying anything yet. She's probably embarrassed. I've seen it before unfortunately. She needs her to bide her time.

Isabeller Tue 18-Jun-13 12:42:45

Brilliant Glosswitch, agree with everyone, too outraged to add anything sensible but standing up to be counted.

Wishing strength and support to Nigella and anyone else facing abuse.

That's a really good piece. Greenslade has now apologised and said he got it really, really wrong.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 18-Jun-13 12:49:32

Great post Glosswitch.

TygerTyger Tue 18-Jun-13 13:03:49

What bothers me, is that if he's cavalier enough to do that in public, what on earth is he like behind closed doors? I can understand her needing that buttered, toasted bagel. That's practically code for comfort food. And she needs plenty of comfort. Quite why anyone would boycott her products and reduce her earning power as a stance against domestic violence, I don't know. OK, she's minted; but if it were the woman at the corner shop, would we boycott her and reduce her economic independence? That wouldn't help her kick her husband out, would it? Silly Aussie DJ.

Also, I doubt very much that Nigella manages her own social media.

I hate to break it to the poor aussie DJ but it's highly unlikely that the person tweeting the bagel had the faintest idea what went on in her marriage.

Yes, lets all boycott the new Saatchi exhibition. (Not that I would have gone anyway!)

Poor Nigella, I am encouraged by reports that she and the kids have moved out somewhere. I hope she finds the strength to leave him. What a horrible man. And yes, you are absolutely right, how can any reporter or commentator find his excuses in any way convincing.

Its a shame it has been only his voice that has been reported. I am not suggesting that Nigella should have been asked to form any public words about this, I think she's got enough to be dealing with. But maybe going to Women's Aid for a quote would have been a great thing for a journalist to do.

ArtisanLentilWeaver Tue 18-Jun-13 13:14:53

I imagine that any woman who has suffered dv either in the past or recently, whether famous or not, must feel confused, bewildered and at a really low ebb.

It is shocking that so many are ready to blame Nigella, not Saatchi and thus adding to the feelings of despair.

Glosswitch's eloquent blog ought to be printed in every paper - not just in the UK, DV is global. It is time to show bullying and controlling partners that trivialising violence is a sign of denial which needs to be addressed.

nerofiend Tue 18-Jun-13 13:15:07

Excellent article. It's so true. Talking about gender these days seems too radical, too divisive in this supposed post feminist "era of equality".

I'm glad that the issue of gender is brought up, and shouted out loud. Violence comes in many forms and places, but the reality of violence against women cannot be silenced. It is silenced when we call these incidents "playful tiffs", dismiss them as normal among couples.

onedomesticgoddess Tue 18-Jun-13 13:45:42

Apols for my name- pure coincidence and can't be bothered to change for this.

I don't think anyone is blaming Nigella- what they are saying is come on, stand up in public against violence for women.

If they were blaming her, they'd be saying she perpetuated it in some way- 'asked for it'- 'deserved it' etc .

Yes there is blackmail- 'we won't buy your products unless you make a stand' which is unacceptable. But they are not blaming her for his unacceptable behaviour.

HowLongIsTooLong Tue 18-Jun-13 13:50:59

This is not a comment, but more of a question. I am sure this incident has resonated with a lot of women, and some good may come out of it in the end by exposing the unhealthy dynamics of so many interpersonal relationships. Many of us may have experienced abuse to various degrees and not recognised it as such. I was taken aback when I read a quote from a previous interview with Nigella when she described how Saatchis is "an exploder" and this makes her turn to "horrible festeringness" (or words similar). I have been struggling for years with "an exploder". It is horrible and draining. Just wondering what the professional psychological diagnosis of this problem is. I´m not looking for jokey comments like "tosser" etc. Seriously, what exactly is this about? This trait was one of the reasons I split up my family and I am still trying to figure out if my ex can get help or can evern change, as I feel it is actually some kind of personality disorder, or is it "anger management", which, let´s face it, men have very different conditioning in than women (men = healthy to express anger and be assertive in an angry way; women: suppress, suppress, suppress, hence tears and trembling lip).

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 13:54:51

I agree onedomesticgoddess. There has been a minimisation and denial of his behaviour but not much blame publicly on Nigella (other than the usual "why doesn't she leave"). I have seen it on here and on FB though.

However, I wonder if that is because she is the "right sort of victim" for the media. If it had been Kerry Katona, for example, would the media reaction have been different? <very cynical>

ouryve Tue 18-Jun-13 13:56:32

The pressure on nigella to comment is utterly unfair. Given the nature of the relationship, and whether rightly or wrongly, I'm sure she sees it as prudent to keep a diplomatic silence until there are sufficient lawyers between her ans saatchi for her to feel safe for herself and her children.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 13:58:16

HowLongIsTooLong - have you read Lundy Bancroft's Why does he do that? It is an excellent book that would probably give you the answers you are looking for. Being explosive is a form of abuse. Abusers are unlikely to change. Anger management is not the answer, generally. Most abusers don't have personality disorders. They just have a sense of entitlement that it is OK to behave like that and a need to control their partners.

Well said

HowLongIsTooLong Tue 18-Jun-13 14:07:16

Thanks for the recommendation Scallopsrgreat. Have actually got the Bancroft book "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" and this actually this suggests change can be made if the man (or the problematic party, let´s not forget abuse is not just present in heterosexual relationships) is ready to do some serious work on himself. But yes, probably the core issue has to be the person´s sense of entitlement that they have the right to do what they do, otherwise they wouldn´t have done it in the first place. It is this that is the core problem and enables them to downplay the serious damage they do. "Playful tiff" my a**e! But everyone in my ex´s family has this explosive, flying-off-the-handle tendency, including his mother and sister. So what´s that about? Can turn one into a nervous wreck being around that family...

onedomesticgoddess Tue 18-Jun-13 14:09:29

Is there pressure on her to comment? I haven't seen any despite reading the national press.

I think she is behaving very well. If she has any sense she will hide away from the media and collect her thoughts. I doubt that, even if it's her wish, she will end her marriage as a 'knee jerk reaction' and play into the media's hands/ expectations. She'll take her time to take the spotlight off herself.

Aside from the actual physical abuse, the most awful thing must be to have yourself exposed in such a manner. His behaviour was not acceptable, ever, but having said that everyone must be careful of commenting on a marriage where only the two people in it know what goes on.

Often there is mutual physical abuse- and no, it's not right. But we only have a snapshot of one incident- who knows what goes on behind closed doors. And although women all over will press Nigella to leave him, we don't know the dynamics of their relationship. Ultimately, it's 100% her choice and not for anyone else to tell her what is 'right' for her, or to be a beacon for women.

ImaHexGirl Tue 18-Jun-13 14:13:00

I complained to Absolute radio yesterday morning when they referred to the incident as "bust up" on their breakfast news as I felt it minimised the incident or at the least implied that Nigella was equally responsible. I don't know if they took my comments on board as was at work by the time of the next bulletin. I'd have been interested to see if they changed their wording.

ImaHexGirl Tue 18-Jun-13 14:17:31

Sorry doesn't really have much to do with general discussion but I felt the use of the words bust up in the media was indicative how these things can be inadvertently (or purposely) downplayed in the media and how this then impacts on women (and men) not in the public eye and who are victims of domestic abuse.

Bonsoir Tue 18-Jun-13 14:23:10

It is completely wrong for there to be any sort of public pressure on Nigella to take a stand or to leave her husband over this incident so that these events might be instrumentalised for the greater good. This is her private life.

onedomesticgoddess Tue 18-Jun-13 14:23:11

I agree. But the inaccurate vocab of local radio ( is it?) is one thing.....

But equally there are today pics of Saatchi on the front pages of the broadsheets, telling how he has been cautioned for assault. The message there seems clear: he's seriously messed up.

ouryve Tue 18-Jun-13 14:35:48

Absolute radio is a national radio station. It used to be Virgin Radio, back in the days when Chris Evans owned it.

onedomesticgoddess Tue 18-Jun-13 14:51:22

I'm a Radio 4 girl- never heard of itsmile

justanuthermanicmumsday Tue 18-Jun-13 14:57:38

ill be the last to defend domestic abusers but nigella lawson has made no statement, so why are we speculating. The media is having a field day, they love to create this frenzy of speculation, and guilt without hard facts.

The camera could be lying or telling the truth, i just don't believe nothing until i hear it from the horses mouth as it were.

also something that's not been mentioned the public or media obsession with other people's private lives, i find that cringeworthy, and disturbing. But even for someone like me with no tv or tabloids i still hear about non news like this on the radio. Why do i call it non news, well its someone private life i don't think I deserve to know about it, or care to know, unless they wish to make it public. Even then i wouldn't buy such books.

Nigella is wonderful as a tv chef and that's how I want to know her, her personal life is her personal business.

manicmumsday, do you feel this way about all abuse? Or just that between husband and wife.

A crime has been committed worthy of a police caution at the very least. That is news.

Do you really think physical violence in a public place is a "private matter" because the victim doesn't wish to talk about it?

SaintTheresa Tue 18-Jun-13 15:10:33

justanuther we are not speculating. Charles S has ADMITTED assaulting his wife. If that is not the horse's mouth, what is?

I object to the way that the newspapers headline with "Saatchi accepts caution" rather than "Saatchi admits assaulting Nigella". It's as if he has done something positive or redemptive (taking a caution) rather than focusing on his crime.

Saatchi says that he has accepted a caution rather than enduring "this hanging over us for months." No Saatchi. It would be hanging over YOU only. Why? Because you were guilty of this crime (as you have now admitted). Had you not admitted the offence today, it would indeed have trundled on for months and, if the justice system had worked properly, you would THEN have been found guilty (as you admit you are) and many more details may have come to light. The only person you were doing a favour by graciously accepting a caution, was yourself.

Nigella, I wish you strength and courage. It's not easy to know what to do.

Poor girl I feel so sorry for her in this terrible ordeal sad. This is not nice at all and what is worse is that this happened in public so people have photos and it must make it worse for her like I'm rubbish at wording stuff but I hope people know what I mean. Like I'm sure she would rather this happen in her home and so she could deal with this privately but then in a way maybe it was better this was done in public maybe he would of gone further!

mignonette Tue 18-Jun-13 15:22:57

These calls for Nigella to take a 'stand' against violence to Women seem to forget that she owes us, the public nothing.

Regardless of whether we buy her books and believe in her 'brand'....(whatever the hell that means)...

Nigella's only priority is herself and her children. Everyone and everything else is just hoo ha. To suggest that every public figure who goes through a meaningful/traumatic or whatever experience then has some kind of obligation to become a public figurehead/spokesperson for their 'cause' says more about the rampant neediness of Joe Public and their desire to see famous people 'paying the piper' for their fame and money.

Its a bit bullying to try and force Nigella to say or do anything isnt it?!

At the moment all she needs to think about is herself, it must be hard with the country talking about it, she must feel under tremendous pressure and she shouldnt. Anything she does now, must be done for her and her alone and not the public.

Hmm, perhaps `force` is too strong a word, I should probably say `want` instead.....to want Nigella to say or do anything......

Glosswitch Tue 18-Jun-13 15:47:08

Re the Australian DJ thing, I really resent the idea that because of what has happened to her Nigella Lawson should become some kind of inspiring poster girl for fighting back and face criticism if she doesn't wish to. It really is a form of victim blaming, and I'd place it alongside all those instances where women with breast cancer are ordered to be pink and smiley or else, or women whose bodies don't meet our culture's exacting standards are blamed for not "celebrating" their curves, as if the fightback's all in your own head. With violence it's worse, though, not just because you can't tell a frightened person to buck up on behalf of the rest of womankind, but because it's so personal and there are so many complex feelings involved. All this does is shame the victim. In fact, I've never bought a Nigella cookbook but now I just might, in reverse protest at the very idea of a boycott...

Glosswitch Tue 18-Jun-13 15:56:13

Manicmumsday, I agree it can be hard to make calls about people’s personal relationships, but don’t we sometimes have a responsibility to do so? And by that I don’t mean the People were acting as a moral guardian, but that in broader terms making judgment calls and intervening (which in this instance no one did) matters. Last Christmas my partner and I were staying in a hotel and ended up calling for help due to a row in the room next door. I still don’t know whether what happened was as bad as it sounded through the walls, but it was clear to me that not calling would still be making a judgment call – and that doing nothing was a far riskier route to take. I don't think outside observers were wrong in this instance, but I also think it's worth taking a chance and stepping into the complexities of other people's interactions if there's a chance someone's at risk.

SarabiDog Tue 18-Jun-13 15:56:40

mignonette, you could argue that she owes the public everything - without them she wouldn't have a global brand.

While I agree her first concerns should absolutely be herself and her children, I would say she owes it to the other victims of domestic violence to stand up and make comment. While you may not like the "rampant neediness" of the public the simple fact is that a famous victim can do a huge amount of good - look at Angelina Jolie recently; or what Jade Goody did after her cancer diagnosis.

ouryve Tue 18-Jun-13 16:13:39

Sarabi - I'm sure that if she does have a comment to make, she will make it in her own time. I'm quite sure her bullying husband would take anything she said, right now, and find a way of turning it against her. I'd be surprised if he hasn't already got some water tight gagging order on her. He's obviously not too fond of her speaking her mind - as illustrated by the hand over her mouth.

onedomesticgoddess Tue 18-Jun-13 16:35:18

shock *sarabidog
So you are arguing that if someone buys your products - or 'brand'- you then become their 'property' and are answerable to them and 'owe' them something in return?

She owes nothing to you, me or anyone.

Why should she?

Are you saying that if someone has a media status and public recognition they should then do whatever they are asked to do? Or am I right in thinking that is just another kind of abuse- forcing someone to behave in way that might make others feel better?

SarabiDog Tue 18-Jun-13 17:00:41

onedomesticgoddess
So you are arguing that if someone buys your products - or 'brand'- you then become their 'property' and are answerable to them and 'owe' them something in return?

I never said that someone in the media becomes "property". That's quite clear from the fact I didn't use the word "property".

Do they owe something? Yes, absolutely. If they use the media to promote themselves and their brand, then they do have a responsibility to their fans - the people that positioned them there. It's hardly a shocking concept - we talk about Stuart Hall and Jimmy Saville abusing their "responsibility" all the time when they used their media image to not only perform horrific crimes, but also to hide them.

In this instance, Nigella has a fantastic opportunity to reach out to those people who are caught in the grip of domestic violence and to show them that people will listen and support them.

Are you saying that if someone has a media status and public recognition they should then do whatever they are asked to do? Or am I right in thinking that is just another kind of abuse- forcing someone to behave in way that might make others feel better?

Again, that's not what I said is it, but I appreciate the effort in exaggerating my point to the nth degree.

LeGavrOrf Tue 18-Jun-13 17:18:53

She owes us fuck all.

thezebrawearspurple Tue 18-Jun-13 17:23:00

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 17:29:21

^ ^
And there we have the victim blaming onedomesticgoddess. No blame attributed to Saatchi and his appalling behaviour for putting the children through that. No expectation that Saatchi owes us to sort himself out. All about the woman's behaviour.

<sigh>

mignonette Tue 18-Jun-13 17:32:15

She owes us nothing.She wrote her books/filmed her TV shows and got paid for them. We bought them and got a great book to read and cook from and a show to be entertained by. Or not as the case may be but there is the 'contract'.
Quid pro quo.

NigellasGuest Tue 18-Jun-13 17:35:24

if you have "some twisted psychological need" then you do not have absolute control over your own destiny.

ImaHexGirl Tue 18-Jun-13 17:36:15

Onedomestic, it doesn't really matter whether it's a local, national or intergalactic radio station. The point is that if everyone just accepted the misuse of certain phrases to describe particular situations it becomes the norm and potentially trivialised. It might have only been a small thing in the grand scheme but I'm glad i pointed it out even the impact was minimal. Perhaps I should listen to Radio 4 more often but my taste in music is very immature grin

LeGavrOrf Tue 18-Jun-13 17:49:11

Good lord zebra. Where is your criticism of Saatchi in that extraordinary post of yours? You are so concentrated on lambasting Nigella Lawson's dysfunctional psyche and selfish nature that you forget that she was on the receiving end of those hands on her throat, and that is (possibly) the tip of the iceberg. Why are you concentrating on blaming her?

I have been lurking but I must post now to say to zebra that I feel sorry for you. You obviously have no empathy whatsoever.

Just because she has money does not make it any easier to leave. Have you never committed to someone who has drawn you in only for you to find out they were not the person you thought they were? Money can't protect you from that!!

Logistically, yes, with money it's easier but that is the only benefit. It doesn't bring greater understanding, support or courage. angry

We are all capable of being manipulated. You've just done it to me. The inflammatory nature of your post has compelled me to post I only intended to lurk on!

Smudging Tue 18-Jun-13 17:58:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

*post on a thread

shock zebra that is a shocking post, and not in a good way. Nice bit of victim blaming there. I cant even be bothered really to argue against your post, too much tunnel vision going on there.

thezebrawearspurple Tue 18-Jun-13 18:21:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 18:23:05

Disgusting post, zebra

Violence in a relationship breaks trust and takes away choice. I don't know whether you're deeply stupid or deeply unpleasant Zebra but either way your posts do you no credit. I have reported and hope your posts will be deleted

BasilBabyEater Tue 18-Jun-13 18:43:32

PM have really pissed me off this evening - there was this reformed abuser on talking about how he'd been to anger management to stop abusing.

It doesn't help when the media promote myths about domestic violence like it's just about men not being able to manage their anger. Charles Saatchi is brilliant at managing his anger - he only inflicts it in on people in circumstances where he won't be held accountable for it. I bet he's never actually expressed it in that way at business meetings. hmm

I totally agree Basil, its not about temper and not being able to control it.

The more I think of that man the more `red flags` there are. Wrt him not eating Nigellas food, as he prefers Weetabix, funny that, do you think Scotts have been serving him Weetabix? Not a bloody chance, just another form of bullying, put downs and control.

justanuthermanicmumsday Tue 18-Jun-13 18:49:45

Unfortunately pencil it is still a private matter apart from the fact police have the right to intervene, as they rightly have. Also bystanders have a right to intervene but they didnt either. But us mere public watching from our sofas no i don't think it's our business.

Newpencilcase: I never said i support domestic violence im just sick of this culture of speculation, sizzling gossip, poking noses into others people personal lives. Did he didn't be, aww wonder what goes on behind closed doors in the nigella lawson household, this sort of thing is disgusting. I think we are blind to the fact that the media is lapping it up for all is worth, do you really think the give a tuppence if nigella is being abused or not course they don't!

I by the wa saw domestic violence as a wee child and experiences it up until my twenties so no i, not against it, I, against everything else that comes with this nigella headline. I think she could do with the press getting off her back.

justanuthermanicmumsday Tue 18-Jun-13 18:51:25

I meant I am against it lol seriously it was a typo, what sane person would support abuse of any sort.

Viviennemary Tue 18-Jun-13 18:53:14

I was shocked by this I admit. But it was two people having a seemingly quite violent row in public. Most domestic abuse takes place behind closed doors. I think the following days and weeks will show how friendly a tiff it actually was.

Eh? Please tell me you're not saying that if a woman stays in a relationship it wasn't real dv. Just a tiff?

I can tell you what shows it wasn't a friendly tiff. The fear in her eyes in the pictures and his caution for assault.

BasilBabyEater Tue 18-Jun-13 18:59:05

Nigella didn't have her hands around Charles' throat, Vivienmary.

What you are doing, is minimising domestic violence.

That sort of minimising is precisely the reason it is so prevalent.

1 in 4 women are subjected to chronic DV in their lives. One of the major reasons it's so common, is because most people minimise it and pretend it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

It isn't. One party here was clearly abusing the other one. Yet still people queue up to pretend it was mutual.

hmm

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 19:00:20

Viv, ask yourself that as the snapper was taking pics with his very high resolution camera if he managed to capture any of Nigella putting her hands around Saatchi's throat

or tweaking his nose

or making him cry

or if the photographer caught him looking like a rabbit frozen in the headlights, resigned to what looks like simply another assault on him

no ?

thought not

bet your house if it happened, we would know about it

so, you are waaaay out of line to call this incident a "violent row"

Saatchi attacked Nigella as she tried to appease him by placing her hand on his and kissing him...let's be quite clear what we are talking about here, eh

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 19:03:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Probably a good time to link the womens aid website. For support and information for anybody who needs it.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 19:10:13

Viv it wasn't two people having

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 19:13:35

Apologies. Phone gone mad! It wasn't two people having a violent row. It was a man being violent towards a woman. Big difference.

Also linking this from the Edinburgh Zero Toerance of Violence Against Women campaign from the 90s. A very simple message - male abuse of power is a crime.

LeGavrOrf Tue 18-Jun-13 19:16:35

Oh well done northern for reporting that post, and thanks MNHQ for deleting it. I didn't think of reporting it tbh.

Fucking lovely terminology there 'friendly tiff'

BIWI Tue 18-Jun-13 19:18:25

justanuthermanicmumsday

Goodness only knows what goes on behind their closed doors. But this episode took place in public, on the pavement, for all the world to see.

Which, actually, makes it even more horrible. He was prepared to treat her that way knowing that anyone might be witnessing it.

Xenia Tue 18-Jun-13 19:24:35

He is interviewed in the Standard tonight. Apparently she wasn't hurt physically, just upset about their row about the children (hers or his?). I don't understand why in the context of his comments he then suggested she and the children go away. If they were trying to pretend all was well and wanted to escape why not he go with them to a hotel in Spain for a few days - why go separately? Does NL use twitter?

Also these marriages where you marry a man old enough to be your father (and a smoker too when her own first husband died of throat cancer) are never going to work. Also the person you love will die a lot sooner than you do - 20 - 30 years earlier so it's always a recipe for disaster.

I wonder what his definition of 'hurt physically' is? Does he mean it didn't hurt? Does he mean it didn't leave a mark? Or nothing got broken?

And by saying 'physically' is he accepting that she may have been hurt emotionally.

Or is he just referring to those 'feelings' that irrational women have.

This is making my skin crawl hmm

Xenia - not entirely sure of your point. Are all age gap relationships abusive? Or is it just her fault for choosing badly?

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 19:34:37

Xenia what the fuck does his being older and a smoker have to with the fact that he attacked her in public?

Nigella owes us nothing. I hope she gets whatever help she needs to do whatever she needs to do to find her own happiness.

Anything else is incidental.

And if the point of 'accepting the caution' was to keep it out of the public eye? Let's keep it in the public eye.

I'm about to blog about some of this stuff. I'll be back with a link.

Dozer Tue 18-Jun-13 19:47:42

It's all horrible (the incident, the reporting of it, people's minimising / victim blaming), but not surprising sad angry

Dozer Tue 18-Jun-13 19:52:36

Thinking back, there have been various press snippets , eg he's "explosive", has a temper, likes her to be heavier, doesn't like her to dress certain ways, she wore full cover-up on the beach (to be fair, could be to avoid bikini shots abd being called fat by the press).

Will other people (ex's, employees) talk about him in public now, or is he too powerful / intimidating?

onedomesticgoddess Tue 18-Jun-13 19:53:22

Xenia
You are slightly off topic with this comment

Also these marriages where you marry a man old enough to be your father (and a smoker too when her own first husband died of throat cancer) are never going to work. Also the person you love will die a lot sooner than you do - 20 - 30 years earlier so it's always a recipe for disaster.

but I really hope you will think again about your sweeping generalisation. (And the smoking observation is odd too- is it not working cos he's a smoker- or because her first husband died of cancer and therefore this guy is doomed too) hmm

I know at least 2 couples in my small social circle where there is a 20 yr ( or almost) age gap. One friend married someone 70 when she was late 40s and they are blissfully happy.

Age is just a number. Some women ( or men) are willing to trade a shorter time together even if the age difference means they are likely to be widowed first. But even having said that, no one knows how long they will live, so they?

KatyDid02 Tue 18-Jun-13 19:58:15

newpencilcase, I think your point about declaring what a normal relationship entails is still very valid. Until recently I assumed that all men were like the ones I knew before declaring independence. I am still surprised at times that most marriages are not that way.

onedomesticgoddess Tue 18-Jun-13 19:59:27

Sarabidog
I don't think I exaggerated your comments one bit. I was spot on and you don't like your post being shown for what it was.

To link Nigella with Saville is just ludicrous and crass. I don't know how you have the nerve to put them in the same category- one the abused, the other the abuser.

Sure you didn't use the word' property'- you didn't need to- the inference was there.

Just tell everyone again why you think she 'owes' us something will you?

I have a Nigella cheese grater- does that mean I should be baying for her to do what I say?

BasilBabyEater Tue 18-Jun-13 20:16:48

It's disgraceful for people to say that she has a duty to speak up about DV.

Charles Saatchi has a duty to not be a physically abusive, violent person.

Becoming the victim of a crime, does not mean you suddenly have a duty to become a spokesperson about that crime.

I cannot quite believe that people still have these terribly crass ideas in their heads. I suppose it's not surprising, given our stupid-making media, but still.

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 20:20:31

Gosh, I saw Xenia's name on the thread and what with her being a highly intelligent woman I was looking forward to the incisive commentary on the situation at hand.

How disappointed I was.

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 20:31:28

grin AF

I am having writers block on this issue for some reason so my blog post is on hold. Sorry.*

*I'm sure you're all very very disappointed.

AltogetherAndrews Tue 18-Jun-13 20:32:30

Sarabi In what universe is being physically abused a "fantastic opportunity."

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 20:33:18

Tee, I had put the rest of my evening on hold for Xenia, and for you

I might as well have sorted my cutlery drawer

< sheesh >

wink

Isabeller Tue 18-Jun-13 20:36:02

If "A crime ... is an act harmful not only to some individual, but also to the community or the state..." and CS has accepted a caution does he not owe something to the community - not just his public/clients/recipients of patronage - ie accepting his guilt at a minimum.

Or is he telling us that when he told the police that, when he told the media, that the apparent strangling gesture was worse than it looked, his statement wasn't factually accurate, but in fact what he told the police was terminologically inexact.

angry

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 20:40:14

::hangs head in shame::

I'm really stuck. I know what I want to say, but it's just not coming out of the typewriter tonight!

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 20:42:23

Go sort your cutlery drawer and try again, Tee

BIWI Tue 18-Jun-13 20:44:01

Ah. The amazing cutlery debate. Spoons on the left, knives in the middle and then forks on the right of the drawer in my house.

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 20:44:34

My cutlery drawer is spotless, thank you very much.*

*Total lie. People actually do that? Sort their cutlery drawer?

grin

BIWI Tue 18-Jun-13 20:46:48

Allegedly!

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 20:47:42

Teaspoons at the front, tablespoons on the left, knives in the middle, forks on the right.

My husband doesn't like to have to open the drawer to wide to stir his coffee. #LazyHusband

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 20:53:44

L > R

tablespoons, forks, knives

front...teaspoons

Spoons on the LEFT!!!!!

No way!

Left to right I have:

Children cutlery
Knives
Forks
Spoons
Teaspoons at the front

BIWI Tue 18-Jun-13 21:02:50

grin

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 21:03:09

Child friendly is in front with the teaspoons.

I have a very small cutlery drawer.

mrsdinklage Tue 18-Jun-13 21:03:22

In today's DF it said CS regularly threw chairs around the office, and both his previous wives divorced him for his unreasonable behaviour.

Knives on the left, then forks then spoons hmm

BasilBabyEater Tue 18-Jun-13 21:17:09

He was the boss, wasn't he?

And it was advertising, an industry that isn't exactly famous for its decent working conditions.

I worked with people like that when I was in advertising. Our MD once called his secretary a cunt. That was just the culture. (Mind you, if someone called him a cunt, I'm not sure the culture would have stood it.)

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 21:21:41

"That's just the culture" is bullshit and should be challenged.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 21:31:43

Yes the old "it's the culture" or "it's traditional". Helps maintain the status quo i.e. oppression.

I have the same drawer layout as NorthernLurker.

I felt it important to say that.

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 21:32:59

I have my own drawer layout. I am proud of that fact. smile

BasilBabyEater Tue 18-Jun-13 21:37:16

People who challenged it, got sacked.

That's how they maintain their culture.

And then the rest of the culture backs them up by minimising their behaviour and enabling it by pretending that it's an interesting character trait.

BasilBabyEater Tue 18-Jun-13 21:38:37

You are all wrong about drawers btw.

Knives go on the right.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Jun-13 21:42:46

Differences. We celebrate that AF grin

Well Saatchi certainly maintains his culture in his personal relationships too. hmm

Chubfuddler Tue 18-Jun-13 21:53:00

Mine is the same as yours AF.

I wish I could give NL a hug. I hope wherever she is she is surrounded by people listening to her and what she wants, not minimisers and appeasers.

AnyFucker Tue 18-Jun-13 21:56:18

It's a bit Emperor's New Clothes isn't it

Except a lot more fucking scary

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 18-Jun-13 22:05:36

Charles Saatchi, amongst his other character defects, is a fucking dishonest piece of shit. He is trying to crack on he accepted the caution to make the whole thing blow over. As any fule kno - except the kind of fule who writes for the standard of course - the police can only caution someone once they have made an admission of guilt. Saatchi has walked into the nick and coughed to knocking his wife about. that is a fact. he is now trying to lie about it and the credulous twats of the press are colluding with him. the whole thing is utterly disgusting. I'm boycotting any company which advertises in the Standard, as of now, til Saatchi is sacked.

Tee2072 Tue 18-Jun-13 22:06:33

Waaay more fucking scary.*

*I would like it noted that Kindle does not recognize the word fucking. Thank you and good night.

Saatchi's statements have certainly been a particularly sickening part of this whole situation. Mimising, self- excusing, dodging git.

Oh and cutlery - what's wrong about having forks in the middle. They're the middle child making the peace between knives and spoons.

Btw I am not allowed to set tables in our house because for some reason I do it wrong. always have from being a child. I hold my fork in my right hand, knife in my left. It's genetic in some way - my uncle (who died before I or my cousin was born) did this, so did my cousin, so did I and I've never changed. It seems to freak people out......dd2 does the same.

Peregrin Tue 18-Jun-13 22:29:30

I am sure Saatchi also "holds" his business partners' "neck repeatedly while attempting to emphasise [his] point". Coz that's what you do when you try to drive a point home.

TheDoctrineOfAllan Tue 18-Jun-13 23:17:25

Brilliant blog, Glosswitch.

Knives, forks/spoons, knives again. So there.

ouryve Tue 18-Jun-13 23:49:04

Knives across the front of my drawer. The only slot long enough.

Crumbs at the bottom

And I did, very rudely, forget to complement Glosswitch on her blog, earlier this evening.

Bonsoir Wed 19-Jun-13 06:19:15

"Also these marriages where you marry a man old enough to be your father (and a smoker too when her own first husband died of throat cancer) are never going to work. Also the person you love will die a lot sooner than you do - 20 - 30 years earlier so it's always a recipe for disaster."

Oh LOL Xenia, we all know you hold the secret to successful relationships hmm

TheDoctrineOfAllan Wed 19-Jun-13 06:53:04

The age difference is 17 years. Not that it's relevant to his behaviour.

Just wanted to put my support behind this blog. I've tried to make the same points on chat boards on the guardians, people spout such utter rubbish sometimes.
He is minimising it for dear life, and should not be cut any slack. "I've apologised, now we have to put this behind us", convenient, innit! Except he hasn't even apologised, he's just called it playfull tiff, and that he was emphasizing his point. It's sadly recognisable of a man who feels so entitled he is just annoyed it got out to the press. I'm sure he is completely failing to understand the outrage. Surely his wife should understand she's caused this mess by not agreeing properly in the first place, for making him have to emphasize his point in such a way etc.
Also sad about how people have described her, as weak and an enabler (on cif). Maybe these descriptions have their place, but I'm ready to scream at anyone who calls me an enabler of my xp's violence, so will extend that outrage to support anyone having been at the hands of such an attack.
And breathe.

BIWI Wed 19-Jun-13 08:39:24

Oh yes, I also forgot to say - FAB BLOG

Xenia Wed 19-Jun-13 09:03:10

(17 year age gap is old enough to be her father).

Bonsoir Wed 19-Jun-13 09:06:00

My grandparents had a 16 year age gap and were very happily married with 5 children.

onedomesticgoddess Wed 19-Jun-13 10:07:33

Yes Xenia we know that a man 17 years older is old enough to be her father.

Maybe run along and begin a thread in Relationships about The Best Age Gap for Perfect Relationship. it's clearly something that bothers you but your comments here are totally beside the point.

onedomesticgoddess Wed 19-Jun-13 10:11:03

BTW- the D Mail has new pics today which show that they were back at Scotts a week after the 'playful tiff'- eating outside etc .

I am a bit surprised because we had been led to believe that the time line was throttling/playful tiff, pics in press, and Nigella leaves.

I for one didn't appreciate that in the week since the attack, they had been seen in public again as if nothing had occurred- until it hit the media.

Which more than likely means this is not a one-off but a characteristic of their marriage.

Doesn't make it right though does it.

If everyone moved out the minute their partner assaulted them there would be no problem would there hmm

chartreuse Wed 19-Jun-13 10:33:19

In the intervening week between the chocking and the publication of the photos, her children were doing exams, she tweeted about the celebration meal she made them. For many mothers that would impact on the decision of whether to leave or whether to go on, putting up with it for the sake of her children. Not wanting to disrupt then in the middle of their exams. Having to go home after being attacked by your husband in a public place and pretend that everything is fine. How desperately sad to be put in a position like that.

Onedomestic - no it was always very clear that the pictures published on Sunday had been taken a week earlier. We don't know(nor do we need to know) if Nigella has left her marriage. Saatchi says she's 'lying low' but he would say that wouldn't he, in the words of Mae West.
What is beyond doubt though is that this incident happened and she continued living in the family home - like the majority of women who suffer abuse do. Leaving is incredibly hard and it's known to take many attempts for women to actually leave - even when they're well off and successful women like Nigella.
And that's why I have talked to my (older) daughters about abuse in relationships and urged them that if once something happens that threatens or frightens them I want them to get out then because it will only get harder to leave. I have told them to call me at any time of day or night and that there is no part of the world I wouldn't go to in order to get them out of this kind of situation. I started having these conversations after reading trial accounts of a man who strangled his 17yr old girlfriend. Evidence was given of his controlling and threatening behaviour beforehand. They had no children together, no home, no finances tied up - you would think it would have been easy for her to get away but she didn't and I think that's partly because she didn't realise how dangerous the situation was.

onedomesticgoddess Wed 19-Jun-13 10:58:09

no, no- you've misread me Northern!

I know the pics were a week old- that's always been clear. What I was adding today was the fact that the DM have NEW pics which were taken AFTER the others- a week after- with them dining again ' as if nothing had happened'.

The subtext being- had these pics not been shown, she was carrying on living with him- it's only because everyone has seen the pics that she has left, not the fact she was abused that's made her leave.

Chubfuddler Wed 19-Jun-13 11:16:18

What exactly are you trying to say onedomestic? You're sounding a little Christine Odone about this, which is slightly alarming. You appear to be suggesting NL was perfectly happy and has been driven away from her husband by the media storm. If that is what you are saying I'm not at all convinced by that version of events. It certainly doesn't chime with my experience of DV.

onedomesticgoddess Wed 19-Jun-13 12:17:45

No I am not saying that though IME Odone has talked a lot of sense in the past and her piece on this is not all that bad- there is certainly some truth in what she says ( though I wouldn't use the word 'jokingly')

All I was pointing out is that we were led to believe the timeline was 'the incident', then the media scrum over it, then Nigella leaving. What no one mentioned was that in between the incident and its appearance in the press, life for the couple appears ( and note that word, please) to have continued as before including dining out at the same restaurant.

I am not drawing any conclusions- merely pointing out what I'd seen today.

Chubfuddler Wed 19-Jun-13 12:22:58

Well I would say you, like Odone, clearly know cock all about DV.

Tee2072 Wed 19-Jun-13 12:35:27

You are drawing conclusions, onedomestic. You're concluding that if there hadn't been a media storm, she wouldn't have left. hmm

And Odone is stupid. And I never use that word. But that article? Stupid.

Chubfuddler Wed 19-Jun-13 12:52:29

I suggest you google "cycle of abuse" one domestic

Tee2072 Wed 19-Jun-13 13:02:14

I still have writer's block and I'm angry about something else and am letting it spill over, but that's what I came up with.

mrsdinklage Wed 19-Jun-13 13:07:05

Tee - but that says enough - it says everything.

Tee2072 Wed 19-Jun-13 13:15:41

Thanks mrsd. I wanted to say more, but it just wouldn't come.

I've NEVER seen Odone talk sense about anything. She's deeply dim imo.

I repeat we don't know why she left on Sunday or even if she has left the marriage. What we do know is that her going home with Saatchi on the Sunday, not leaving on the Monday morning after this incident or at any point before the publishing of the pictures means nothing. It doesn't mean everything was fine. It doesn't mean he's right in calling it a tiff. It doesn't mean Odone was right to say it was just a row in their marriage etc etc.

I agree you need to look up the cycle of abuse. If you check out the womens aid site I linked below I'm sure it's on there.

It's really important for people to understand that in an abusive relationship it isn't necessarily awful all of the time. Abusers are clever and cunning and they want to keep control over their victims. Violence and other abuse is one method but so is manipulation.

Xenia Wed 19-Jun-13 13:22:54

Saatchi spoke exclusively to last night's Standard and said he had sent NL and the children away for a bit. (a) he has sent them away ( don't like that language (b) not very supportive not to be with her unless their marriage is in trouble (c) bit strange to do that if her children are still doing public school exams (If it's true - they may still be in the house but pretending not to be to escape the press).

BIWI Wed 19-Jun-13 13:31:58

Tee - brilliant. How do I follow your blog?

somebloke123 Wed 19-Jun-13 13:40:17

To have someone hold your neck like that is disconcerting even if it's clearly in play, which this clearly wasn't.

To be grabbed by the neck by someone known to throw violent temper fits is something else entirely. I can't see how she isn't in a more or less permanent state of insecurity and fear of serious injury or worse.

(Northernlurker Sorry to be pedantic but "He would, wouldn't he?" was Mandy Rice Davies, not Mae West.)

Tee2072 Wed 19-Jun-13 13:57:52

Thanks BIWI. Sorry, my 'Give me your email to subscribe' button had gone POOF! Now it's there, right hand side. grin

WigglyBraddins Wed 19-Jun-13 14:42:43

Hear hear. This is an excellent post. I've also found this one interesting too www.julietemckenna.com/?p=1069

BIWI Wed 19-Jun-13 14:43:47

Done!

onedomesticgoddess Wed 19-Jun-13 15:29:56

Some of you have vivid imaginations- I didn't say what you seem to be crediting me with.

I simply posted about the new pics in the DMail and the timeline and what THEY were suggesting my the new pics- not ME!

Talking about dim....

Please don't patronise me Chub- I don't need to google DV thanks.

Chubfuddler Wed 19-Jun-13 15:40:19

Don't write apologist drivel if you don't want to feel patronised.

And it was a genuine suggestion actually. You seemed to be suggesting that everything in the Lawson garden appeared rosey in the week that intervened between the incident and the photos being published. If you have more than a passing acquiantance with DV you would know that's exactly how things would appear.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 19-Jun-13 20:55:59

"Odone has talked a lot of sense in the past"
Chortle
Christina Odone couldn't talk sense if her life depended on it

BasilBabyEater Wed 19-Jun-13 21:20:06

She has occasionally talked sense.

But mostly, she hasn't talked sense.

If you were to weigh it, the sense would be like a couple of tea-spoons and the total shite would be about a ship's tanker full.

I like to be fair.

AnyFucker Wed 19-Jun-13 21:24:15

arf @ BBE

BIWI Wed 19-Jun-13 22:16:04

grin

I don't recall a single example of her talking sense. Please share the quotes! Would be like seeing a unicorn....'Look there's The Odone in a highly unusual habitat....'

HowLongIsTooLong Thu 20-Jun-13 00:05:35

Don´t worry onedomesticgoddess, I understand exactly what you were saying and it wasn´t "apologist drivel" - don´t know why some people turn so nasty and attacking here. For me too it was new info to the case seeing them dining together in the same restaurant again some days after the awful abuse incident. She looked bloody miserable. I agree that this suggests that the media furore MAY have contributed to her leaving home when she did. And this is not judging her at all, just an observation.

There's no such thing as a neutral observation. So now you know she was seen eating out with him again. Given that he is known to snub her cooking that's not surprising is it? I fail to see why this 'new info in the case' is so fascinating and significant. I repeat again we don't know if she's left the marriage and of course it's possible that if she has, she had made that decision some time before the publishing of the photos. Every time somebody refers to her still dining with him afterwards or going home with him afterwards or only leaving because of the media then yes you sould like an apologist for the abuse. You appear to minimise the abuse and that's why the comments generate opposition.

Somebloke - yes you're absolutely right it was. I typed Mae West then thought hmm but was too slack to google.

BasilBabyEater Thu 20-Jun-13 10:01:58

ooh now you've put me on the spot Northernlurker.

I might have to google for hours to sift through all the shite to get to the one or two sensible comments she surely must have made in her time. grin

tripfiction Fri 21-Jun-13 17:09:16

Great blog. It is worth remembering that 2 people die per week in the UK through Domestic Violence and Abuse (DVA) and the neck is an extremely vulnerable area of the body...

SunshineBossaNova Fri 21-Jun-13 20:07:41

tripfiction are those 2 people women?

BIWI Fri 21-Jun-13 20:39:15

Does it matter what gender they are? Domestic violence is inexcusable regardless of the sex of the victim.

SunshineBossaNova Fri 21-Jun-13 21:58:01

BIWI I abhor domestic violence, no matter what the sex of the victim.

But the 2 deaths a week figure is often cited exclusively for females killed by male perpetrators, hence my question.

BasilBabyEater Sat 22-Jun-13 11:16:34

By pretending that it's 2 people a week as opposed to 2 women, we invisibilise the gender aspect of the killings.

Most victims of domestic violence are women, most perpetrators are men; it is a gendered crime.

If we know that, we can address the causes of it. If we invisibilise what we know, we can't address the causes.

One of the things the Stephen Lawrence case did, was force the police, courts, media and society in general, to acknowledge the specific problem of killings on racist grounds - acknowledging that this is a specific problem with specific causes and therefore needs to be handled differently from murder in general and be addressed differently (in terms of prevention) than murder in general, does not in any way imply that general, non-racist murder doesn't matter.

It gives us all a proper context to properly address the issue. Failing to acknowledge context, means we're doomed never to be able to address it properly.

BasilBabyEater Sat 22-Jun-13 11:17:30

Sorry that may not be clear.

My point is, that if we keep on pretending there isn't a specific context to DV murders, that number of 2 women a week will never come down.

SunshineBossaNova Sat 22-Jun-13 13:48:05

Thanks Basil for explaining so beautifully why we mustn't forget the gendered aspect of DV.

HardlyMotherTheresa Wed 26-Jun-13 15:32:34

Hear, hear Basil.

BIWI Wed 26-Jun-13 15:37:33

I'd just like to say that my comment/question was not intended to be a 'what about the menz' one!

SunshineBossaNova Wed 26-Jun-13 22:03:17

No worries BIWI smile

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