Please don't promote blogs that aren't in the Mumsnet Bloggers Network. Join the network

Guest Blog: we can't end violence against women by kicking men out of feminism

(95 Posts)
KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 05-Dec-12 11:38:37

This week's guest blog is from Holly Baxter, who is co-editor of The Vagenda. Initially set up to call out women's magazines for limiting women's horizons, The Vagenda has helped to popularise feminism for a new generation of young women, and this week the team signed a book-deal.

In this guest blog, which is part of the #16days of activism to eliminate violence against women, Holly argues that the battle can't be won if we won't allow men to fight beside us. Her post is partly in response to recent events at the London Feminist Film Festival, where activist and panellist Julia Long asked all the men to leave a post-screening talk.

Read the blog, and do tell us what you think.

FYI, StewieGriffinsMom has set up a bloghop for #16days posts, so if you post about the 16 days of activism to eliminate violence against women, do add your URL on her blog, and tweet us @mumsnetbloggers too - we'll RT you if you do.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 12:25:01

I completely agree. I understand why women-only 'spaces' are necessary in support situations - ie when women are present who have been abused or otherwise victimised, and the presence of men might prevent them from coming forward to actually use that support.

But in politics and in activism we look like hypocrites, fools - or worst of all - bullies, when we exclude men.

I'd be really angry if I went to an event which billed itself as a feminist - not separatist - one, which allowed a separatist to hijack the agenda like this. I'd be there to try and build a better future for my sons as wells as my daughters - and Julia Long does NOT speak for me.

poppyseeds99 Wed 05-Dec-12 12:29:05

Haha, Julia Long may be waiting for the day when men no longer roam the earth and we use selection methods and sperm-in-test-tubes to procreate, in a women-only world. But that's not the world we live in now... doesn't make sense to chuck any gender out of any meeting, surely? hmm

chocomolic Wed 05-Dec-12 17:28:57

What would the reaction have been if a male at a film festival asked all women to leave?! I know what my reaction would be to him anyway and it wouldn't be pleasant!

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 18:27:57

I have heard (from SGM's blog) that Long may have been misrepresented, and I don't feel terribly comfortable commenting when the only media reports I can find are not by her, and seem very negative towards her.

Just thought that was worth flagging up.

I am really angry that this is being presented as some kind of 'mean' move by nasty feminists excluding men.

My DH, who I'm mentioning because he happens to be a bloke I know well, would not think twice if he were politely asked to leave a feminist event, especially one discussing separatism. That's because he doesn't assume he's entitled to be involved in every single discussion ever - and he understands that women-only spaces matter.

I'm kinda pissed off I'm rolling out my DH's words here, as if I can't use my own, but hey, it sounds as if that's what's important, right? Julia Long (or anyone else who asks men to leave should not even be allowed to ask, because her right to express herself as a woman is less important than worrying that men might be offended by her request. Not that they might refuse (it seems they didn't): but that they might be offended to be asked.

angry

This is not the same as men excluding women, so it is not on to say 'oh, but if men did it it'd be uproar'. Yes: because there is a context to all of this. Women are frequently excluded, especially lesbians, who were the subject of that film. Even in our nice 'equal' UK society we are excluded economically and politically and educationally. In an average gathering, men will dominate the conversation.

So is it really so much to ask that occasionally, there's some space for women on their own?!

That's before I even get into the crap of that blogpost, which reads awfully like saying: 'shit, ladies, best include the menfolks or they might kill us!'

I know that's not the message the author hopes to get across, but she is citing an appalling example of violence by a man targeting women. The vast majority of violence is enacted by men, against women. More women have been killed by domestic violence in the US, than troops have been killed in the Afghan war over the same time (6,614 against 11,766, if you're interested). The author of this blog seems to be claiming that we must ignore these statistics, we must never treat men as the perpetrators of gendered violence, and we must file away people like the man she describes in her article as isolated madmen.

Well, no.

There is a pattern here. Women should not have to be too 'nice' and gentle and sweet to see it. Women are entitled to say, no, we are not being treated as equal. Yes, maybe some of us do want women-only spaces. We shouldn't be vilified for asking for them.

We certainly shouldn't have words put into our mouths. Claiming 'Julia Long things men are the enemy' without the courtesy of a quotation is bullshit. Misrepresenting what happened - which I do believe has happened in the mainstream media reporting of this event - is bullshit.

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 18:33:48

No time for a long post, but I agree with Julia about the vital importance of all-women spaces in activism.

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 18:36:03

I also think it is really shoddy of MNHQ to do this without actually making sure that the facts are straight first.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 18:43:23

Having done a load of googling, TBF, I'm not sure how easy the facts are to come at. What I know is private stuff from chatting to people (which obviously I'm not going to repeat), and SGM's warning on her blog. Which is here:

therealsgm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/a-bunch-of-men-were-asked-to-leave-movie.html

What I am confused by is the mention of stewie in the title, as if she supports this guest blog post, when it's pretty obvious from her blog she has her own view.

KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 05-Dec-12 18:45:01

Which facts aren't straight, Tunip? We want to encourage all voices to contribute, but if we've got facts wrong we'd definitely want to put it right asap.

KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 05-Dec-12 18:49:48

LRD, that's a good point about how we include stewie in the OP - we've just edited to reflect that.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 18:54:17

Thanks Kate. Sorry, I was about to report but you are already on it.

I don't want to speak for tunip but since she mentions she doesn't have much time (and may have disappeared off already) - she might be referring to the warning on SGM's post, which I've linked to.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Wed 05-Dec-12 18:57:39

I do feel I can't comment until I hear the facts, which don't seem to be here.

Have HQ tried contacting Julia to see what she has to say?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 19:27:03

Baxter says that Long sees men as the enemy. I'm not sure that asking some people to leave a panel discussion is a sufficient pointer to you thinking they are the enemy.

Also the panel discussion wasn't about gendered violence, it was about a film about lesbian separatism. Why is it being brought up in Baxter's blog? I think it wasn't right to ask men to leave that particular event because it hadn't been billed as a women only event, but it just doesn't seem relevant. She might as well have said "and here's something Greer said about equal pay or Fine said about gender development that I disagree with" in there.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 19:27:50

I agree with Julia as well. The film was about female separatism. Why should men be involved in that discussion? Surely that would negate the point of the film?

I also agree with LRD. In trying to eradicate the problem of violence against women you have to name the problem. And the problem is male violence.

What LRD said, with bells on.

JuliaScurr Wed 05-Dec-12 19:43:24

www.janeelliott.com/

the blue eyes/brown eyes exercise gives blue eyed people an experience of how it feels to be unprepared for arbitrary discrimination and exclusion based on physical characteristics. Whether or not Julia Long intended something similar, it certainly had an impact words alone would not have had.
The men lost an opportunity to discuss a film. Women routinely lose a lot more than that.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 19:46:16

doctrine - I don't see how asking someone to leave (and I'm still worried this isn't what happened - I know it's what's been reported) is making the 'the enemy'.

Until we know why Long did it, I don't think it's fair to second-guess her motivations.

The reason I mentioned gendered violence is the blog post.

The film, being about lesbian separatism, sounds to me like a good context for asking men to leave a discussion. If nothing else, it'd be a good social experiment to see how it worked. Sadly it seems the men took it in good part but many others didn't.

If it had been set up as a women-only event (which is extremely difficult to do atm, after Conway Hall), there would have been no scope to make the political point you make by asking men to leave. I don't see what's wrong with that.

emskaboo Wed 05-Dec-12 19:47:11

Another vote for LRD. I hate this idea that women only spaces are oppressing men or that we should be forced to include them.

As a white able bodied woman I am pretty sure I would, quite rightly, get very short shrift if I attempted to attend the BME or disabled workers forums at my workplace without an explicit invitation, and if I had been invited I would in no way be offended if I was asked at a certain point to leave as someone felt uncomfortable about me being there, what is the difference?

WidowWadman Wed 05-Dec-12 19:54:10

So why should men not learn about lesbian separatism? And if men weren't welcome, why hasn't it been advertised as women only event?

Frankly this sounds exactly like the sort of thing why so many women declare that they're not feminists.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 19:54:41

Sorry, re-read my post to you doctrine and realized how antagonistic it sounds! blush

I'm fired up, but not at you.

Hope that is clear.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 19:56:07

WW - I suspect (practically) it wasn't a woman-only event because they've become effectively impossible to organize, because they get derailed and the organizers get targeted.

But also, if it had been a woman-only event, then a different sort of political point is made - as juliascurr's link illustrates.

Frankly, this sounds like the sort of thing (to me) that demonstrates which women weren't feminists in the first place.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 20:03:59

LRD, my post was in response to Baxter's blog. As a post itself, regardless of topic, it doesn't seem very good.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:07:44

YY, I know ... I was going off on a rant after your post, rather than ranting at you. I'm not the most coherent when I'm angry.

Maybe that is one thing that makes me feel some sympathy for someone asking to make a discussion women-only. I can imagine that if you were in a room, you might be looking round, working out whether you'd feel able to speak confidently.

If I think of this from the point of view of women in the audience, some of those women presumably were there because they wanted to see this screening, and if it was mixed, that's what they had to go to. I would think you might be glad of someone suggesting maybe the men should leave, if you'd felt uncomfortable in a mixed viewing.

But I am speculating on what one might do in a context like this, because I still don't reckon we know what did happen, quite.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 20:12:03

Fair enough smile

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Wed 05-Dec-12 20:13:30

Okay so I've read a bit further and most of what I am reading doesn't seem to be anger that she said (supposedly, I also can't find definite proof of this) 'men leave' but that she made the decision apparently on her own without consulting anyone else on the panel.

Either way, why shouldn't she, or anyone, be able to make that point, that the discussion was for women only. It wasn't a discussion on men in feminism. It was about lesbian separatism. So why did men need to be there?

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:15:08

Sorry to post and run, I had bedtimes/tea to deal with.

As I understand it Julia Long says that she did not ask all the men to leave. I hope something will appear at some point giving her side of things, either in CiF or elsewhere (and I'm sure when it does it will be well worth reading).

RadFems do tend to get misrepresented a lot so I think you need to be a bit careful when basing a blog post, as Baxter did, on something a prominent radical feminist is reported to have done or said, when the person saying they did this (ie the author of the original CiF piece) is clearly hostile to the person in the first place. It's a bit disappointing Mumsnet nailed its colours to their mast without checking the person being talked about agreed with that version of events.

I like Vagenda v much, and this is clearly a good discussion to be having, but by presenting Baxter's side of the story as if it is simple fact, it makes it look as if MNHQ is taking the anti-radfem line from the start, and I'm sure you don't mean to give this impression and want to continue to be open to all viewpoints.

WidowWadman Wed 05-Dec-12 20:28:23

"Frankly, this sounds like the sort of thing (to me) that demonstrates which women weren't feminists in the first place. "

You can be a feminist and not subscribe to separatism.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:30:38

I never suggested you couldn't.

I'm not a separatist (FWIW).

WidowWadman Wed 05-Dec-12 20:35:05

So why do you suggest then that those women who object to kicking men out aren't feminists?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:36:01

No, that's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Wed 05-Dec-12 20:39:06

Then could you expand on what you meant by that LRD? Because I read it the same way WW does.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 05-Dec-12 20:42:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Wed 05-Dec-12 20:45:35

Bravo Stewie.

HQ...seriously you need to think this one through more. You've done this very very badly.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:46:40

Sorry Tee.

I think it's annoying when people claim that someone else's actions 'are the sort of thing that puts women off feminism'. It may put them off feminism, if Long asked men to leave.

But given that we don't quite know what she said, and given there could, I would argue, be some very good reasons to make a request of the male members of the audience, I am slightly suspicious.

I'd say if someone considers they're 'put off feminism', and they're so sure this is a typical experience they're prepared to say 'this is the sort of thing that puts women off', I would expect the thing that happened to be huge.

I wouldn't expect that response to a couple of hostile media reports that allege something, which don't include response or explanation from the woman who allegedly said it. And I wouldn't expect that response to one small question from one feminist, even if she's a prominent feminist.

I'm sorry, but it sounds to me like the rhetoric the anti-feminists constantly come out with, which insist we should all speak just as they'd like in case we 'put women off feminism'.

The sort of women who'd be put off - were they that convinced before!?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:48:06

Cross post. Well said SGM. If I may:

Geneviève Bergeron, aged 21;
Hélène Colgan, 23;
Nathalie Croteau, 23;
Barbara Daigneault, 22;
Anne-Marie Edward, 21;
Maud Haviernick, 29;
Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31;
Maryse Leclair, 23;
Annie St.-Arneault, 23;
Michèle Richard, 21;
Maryse Laganière, 25;
Anne-Marie Lemay, 22;
Sonia Pelletier, 28; and
Annie Turcotte, aged 21.

Je me souviens.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Wed 05-Dec-12 20:50:51

I follow now, LRD. And I agree with you.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:51:16

Thanks, and thanks for being understanding. Sorry I didn't put it better first off.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Wed 05-Dec-12 20:52:06

I think your meaning got swallowed by cross posts.

I really would love to hear what Julia has to say about this.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 20:54:30

Me too.

Tricky, I guess - it's not great she's been put into a position with blog posts like this one accusing her without quoting her or attempting to put across her reasons for what she did. It seems like another way of putting constraints on how she expresses herself, doesn't it, which isn't easy.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 05-Dec-12 20:54:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:07:29

SGM: "I do not want to betray personal confidences of those who have messaged me to correct my original blog post but I can say that the men were not asked to leave before the movie."
Sorry, don't know how to do quotes, but I think, if you know what was said and it's tangibly different from the OP and the Guardian article, you should tell us. I can't see how that could break a confidence, it's a matter of public record.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 21:08:22

Geneviève Bergeron, aged 21;
Hélène Colgan, 23;
Nathalie Croteau, 23;
Barbara Daigneault, 22;
Anne-Marie Edward, 21;
Maud Haviernick, 29;
Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31;
Maryse Leclair, 23;
Annie St.-Arneault, 23;
Michèle Richard, 21;
Maryse Laganière, 25;
Anne-Marie Lemay, 22;
Sonia Pelletier, 28; and
Annie Turcotte, aged 21.

Je me souviens.

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:09:55

Geneviève Bergeron, aged 21;
Hélène Colgan, 23;
Nathalie Croteau, 23;
Barbara Daigneault, 22;
Anne-Marie Edward, 21;
Maud Haviernick, 29;
Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31;
Maryse Leclair, 23;
Annie St.-Arneault, 23;
Michèle Richard, 21;
Maryse Laganière, 25;
Anne-Marie Lemay, 22;
Sonia Pelletier, 28; and
Annie Turcotte, aged 21.

Je me souviens.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:11:14

Plain, you are at liberty not to take SGM's word for what was said to her without further detail, of course. If she feels she'd be breaching a confidence by providing further detail, that is entirely up to her.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 05-Dec-12 21:12:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:16:59

Abigail Adams: "The film was about female separatism. Why should men be involved in that discussion?"

Um, all voices are necessary for yer actual discussion, innit? Unless you're saying "MY discussion". Which would be just a broadcast/propaganda.

As an aside - because it's logically irrelevant - IME, feminist men are very able to imagine/justify/hope for the various female-onlyspaces that might be desirable or possible.

Before you all hate on me, I'm v aware of the MRA issues. I'm trying to point out, from a 'women we'd like to get onside perspective', how genuinely offensive this sounds (as reported).

Unless you only care about 'people's front of judea' stuff, you need to step back and consider whether you're pissing away an opportunity. TBH, by the time you're into Julia Long's message, you're plenty empowered, and you're just cock-slamming.

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:17:03

PlainBellySneetch, we don't have an absolute right to discuss this tonight. Why not just wait until Julia is in a position to share her own version of events? Then once that's out in the public eye, anyone who wants to can come back and discuss it.
Makes more sense than second-guessing or playing Chinese Whispers IMO.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:19:59

Cock-slamming?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:22:04

plain - you don't see why SGM shouldn't break a confidence?

Doesn't this go to the heart of the matter. Why do some people believe their right to hear or be part of a conversation must take precedence over the rights of others?

I am not certain all voices are necessary for 'yer actual discussion' (whatever you mean by that).

If you have a situation where women feel unable to speak, is that really a discussion, just because you've not excluded men from speaking?

I don't think so.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 21:23:31

I don't think I am the one being offensive here <shrugs>

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:23:42

"Cock-slamming"
I'm sure there's a special phrase for it, that I'v missed. I mean wacking your privilege on the table and saying "TOP THAT"

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 05-Dec-12 21:23:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:27:24

plain - you don't see why SGM shouldn't break a confidence?
How can it be a confidence? It was a public event.
Things which were discussed in confidence are entirely irrelevant to this event as a thing. It's not a collection of behind-the-scene scuttlings. It's a public event, and can only be discussed as such. In fact, it only has meaning as such. Otherwise, it's just your book club.

WidowWadman Wed 05-Dec-12 21:27:55

Where's the rule that says that you can only blog about mumsnet members when doing a guest post?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:27:56

I've got to say, desite having heard Julia Long speak, I have no idea what her 'message' is and didn't realize it was reducible to something so simple as you suggest. Nor do I think one has to be 'privileged' to accept the very simple concept that, sometimes, it is good to have women-only spaces.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:28:33

plain - she's not talking about the conference, she's talking about a confidence concerning the conference. As she said.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:32:54

So Julia long is slamming her privilege on the table, in a cock-slammy way?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:34:06

Now there's an implausible image.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 21:38:54

I thought PlainBellySneetch was accusing me of cock-slamming?? Rather ironic either way, really.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:39:17

LRD: " Why do some people believe their right to hear or be part of a conversation must take precedence over the rights of others?"

Well, why do some people believe their right to cock-slam takes precedence over the rights of others? Especially when they've got the precious name of 'feminism' in their hands, which they hold on behalf of all women everywhere?

As described, Julia's call at the London Feminist Film Festival was an exercise in shaming. She made the men present do the walk of shame. That's horrific. Can you not see that most women who identify as feminists recoil from this?

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:41:17

I hope MNHQ is going to delete all these personal attacks.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:41:35

" So Julia long is slamming her privilege on the table, in a cock-slammy way?"

Precisely. Privilege doesn't have to be decades-old to be privilege. She's privileged, and she threw it around at that event.

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:43:36

Were you there, PlainBellySneetch, or are you basing this on what you read in the CiF article which seems to have got some things wrong in any case?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:45:04

Wow. Ok. Err.

confused

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:49:37

I wasn't there - and neither, as far as I can tell, were others on the thread. But I will gladly correct if it's not the case that a panellist aske the male attendees to leave a session.

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:53:16

It just seems plain daft to me to be banging on about what Julia Long did until we actually know what she did.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:09

plain - I don't know what 'cock slamming' is, but I'm a woman. I don't have a cock, and I don't 'slam' anyone else's. Ok?

If you notice, the info we have suggests men were asked to leave. What is wrong with that?

What is shameful about men getting up to leave a room? Do you honestly believe it's shameful for me to be silent, or not to participate? What kind of narrow-minded sense of masculinity is that?

My DH would happily leave a room if he thought it'd facilitate a discussion on a subject - such as the subject of this film - that was concerned with women-only spaces.

Just like if someone had said to me, as a non-lesbian woman, that they'd rather I leave, I would go. And just as, if I went to an event to learn about ethnic minorities in Britain, I would not consider it 'shameful' to be asked if I'd leave during part of the event.

I would be happy to do that and I would feel respected - that people had let me be part of a debate as a guest in an issue that primarily does not concern me.

I think this attempt to make out that Long and others were portraying men as 'the enemy' is a ridiculous last-ditch attempt to gain what you see to be the necessary stature for men. The men at the even do not seem to have minded. But you feel you must find some kind of identity for them that isn't just not-quite-welcome. You've got to dignifty them with the status of Public Enemy No 1.

It is daft and derails the debate.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:27

I'm guessing that there is another agenda going on here with PlainBellySneetch.

Discussions don't have to include all voices otherwise all discussions everywhere would have to involve the entire world. Which would be a little ridiculous. Discussions are routinely run within parameters and the parameters for this discussion, it seems, was for it to be women-only. Which was highly relevant and appropriate considering the film content.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:31

I'm pretty sure that she'd have sprung up somewhere online by now, if she was going to.

The fact that she hasn't blogged/guest-blogged/CiF'd it makes me suspect that she's wanting to be a bit backwards in coming forwards.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:57

Ah. Many cross posts.

Yes, tunip, you're right.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 21:57:24

That last was to Tunip. I have to duck out for a minute.

chibi Wed 05-Dec-12 21:57:59

i am pretty gobsmacked at the way in which this blogger has used the montreal massacre to make a point about men (maybe) being asked to leave a film or discussion or whatever.

i am canadian. i was a 14 year old girl on 6 december, 1989 and it was a huge fucking deal that young women not much older than myself were murdered because of misogyny.

i can't articulate how it was to be a young woman in canada on that day, and the days after.

it was shocking to realise that it didn't matter who they were, only that they were women, and in a place where someone felt they shouldn't be. the coupling of their tragedy to make some crummy point in some blog dehumanises them again - their stories don't matter, who they were doesn't matter, only that they are women, and there to be used to make some kind of point.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 21:59:03

That's awful chibi. sad And I completely see your point. While wondering what the heck Baxter was thinking.

chibi Wed 05-Dec-12 21:59:39

Geneviève Bergeron, aged 21; Hélène Colgan, 23; Nathalie Croteau, 23; Barbara Daigneault, 22; Anne-Marie Edward, 21; Maud Haviernick, 29; Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31; Maryse Leclair, 23; Annie St.-Arneault, 23; Michèle Richard, 21; Maryse Laganière, 25; Anne-Marie Lemay, 22; Sonia Pelletier, 28; and Annie Turcotte, aged 21.

i remember.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 22:00:12

"I'm guessing that there is another agenda going on here with PlainBellySneetch. "

Um, no. I am a person, on my own, unsupported, connected or funded by any other person or thing.

I'd just like feminism to be owned by women generally, rather than by groups of narrow interest. I think more good will be done that way.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 05-Dec-12 22:04:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 22:05:33

So if you want feminism to be owned by women what is the problem with excluding men from certain discussions?

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 22:06:34

chibi sad

TunipTheVegedude Wed 05-Dec-12 22:08:07

Women who agree with PlainBellySneetch get defined as 'women generally' and women who disagree with her get defined as a narrow interest group and accused of cock slamming. That seems to be how it works....

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 22:13:46

"So if you want feminism to be owned by women what is the problem with excluding men from certain discussions?"
When I say women, I don't mean 'you', I mean 'women'.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 22:19:14

hmm Are you being deliberately offensive?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 22:19:33

Oh, I see, you mean you exclude us. Thanks for that.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 22:20:56

I'm off to bed. Thanks SGM and Chibi for your posts about these women and their memory.

It would be nice to keep that part of the thread going, instead of letting these women's names get sidelined yet again.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 22:21:20

I don't see how women can "own" feminism whilst having to include men (our oppressors) in every discussion.

WidowWadman Wed 05-Dec-12 22:22:42

"I don't see how women can "own" feminism whilst having to include men (our oppressors) in every discussion."

Are all men one homogenous group of oppressors? I find it pretty sexist to judge men by their sex instead of what they do/say.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 22:26:36

Off to bed, but a clarion call from the colonies [those who identify as feminists, but don't agree with you]

Politics is about people - that's all. Feminism only exists to make a difference, not to make careers. Stop shutting people out.

My mother, who did all that Seventies stuff, would turn in her grave at how you define 'a good feminist'.

Crucially: a 'female space' is best defined by the number of females that are in the space. There are NO FUCKING FEMALES IN YOUR SPACE. Why don't you aim to bring the thousands of women who are angry, into your space, before you claim it?

NIght all. Lalala I can't hear you.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 22:28:10

Argh massive edit fail. Please lose "There are NO FUCKING FEMALES IN YOUR SPACE. " with my apols.
But srsly, goodnight.

AbigailAdams Wed 05-Dec-12 22:30:25

Geneviève Bergeron, aged 21; Hélène Colgan, 23; Nathalie Croteau, 23; Barbara Daigneault, 22; Anne-Marie Edward, 21; Maud Haviernick, 29; Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31; Maryse Leclair, 23; Annie St.-Arneault, 23; Michèle Richard, 21; Maryse Laganière, 25; Anne-Marie Lemay, 22; Sonia Pelletier, 28; and Annie Turcotte, aged 21.

Je me souviens.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 22:31:07

'Are all men one homogenous group of oppressors? I find it pretty sexist to judge men by their sex instead of what they do/say.'

Yeah, cos it'd be much better to go back to not realizing women are oppressing on the basis of gender. If only we pesky feminists would do that, why, I bet we'd have no more of this 'sexism' malarky, right? hmm

Honestly.

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 22:32:29

Oh for fucks sake.
This naming of the dead could be applied to any political argument. Cf syria, cf FGM in Africa. Do we want to change things, or do we want to emote?

PlainBellySneetch Wed 05-Dec-12 22:35:34

Or, do we want to deal with the fact that some figures in our activist world are keener to create a self-publicising moment than use their currency to draw attention to (for eg) FGM.

chibi Wed 05-Dec-12 22:38:59

i disagree. naming the women is not emoting when they have been used to score cheap points in a blog. i named them because they were real, they were here, and they weren't abstractions for people to theorise over.

there is a discussion to be had about the role men might have as allies in feminism, but the crass way in which murdered women have been used here makes me not want to have that discussion with anyone who thinks that it is ok to do that.

WidowWadman Wed 05-Dec-12 22:39:09

I haven't said that women aren't oppressed on the basis of their gender. They're oppressed by both men and women because of their gender.

The answer - in my opinion - is to break down the barriers of sexism, to stop judging people by their sex, but instead focus on their opinions, what they say, and what they do.

You can't combat sexism by exercising it yourself.

OliviaPeaceOnMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 05-Dec-12 22:39:52

Hello there
Thanks for the reports regarding this thread. We're just going to take a pause until the morning when we can chat with the blogging team.
Night all
Thanks
MNHQ

LittleTownofBethleHelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 14-Dec-12 15:12:08

Hello. Just posting to say a mahoosive apology for not having re-opened this thread.

Massive cock-up at MNHQ blush

Please be assured that our policy about suspending threads is only to do so temporarily - and then to re-open with an explanation as soon as possible.

That didn't happen in this case, and it should have. Very sorry.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now