my 5 yr old over boistrous for his piers in school

(106 Posts)
littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 12:14:27

My 5 year old boy started a new school at the end of January and is apperntly beginning to settle. But other children are saying he is naughty and the teacher told me yesterday that he is being to boistrous for his piers and hurting them. He is big for his age, some of the children one child in particular is half is size.

A lot of the time he is joining in with rough play with the other boys one group in particular because he is the biggest the smaller ones generally end up being pushed over although he is doing the same as them (at lunchtimes) and other times he has pinched another child to stop them hurting a girl. he does that quite a lot he gets involved where he shouldnt.

he pushed over the small child in roleplay in class and he fell onto a plastic box resulting in a cut bottom. My child has had run ins with this boy previously where this boy was playing boxing and seeing who was the strongest and they grabbed each others face. The other boy got a scratch, apparently the apologised at the time to each other.

This is the one side of the problem he isnt hurting children out of anger or spite, but out of some misguided protecting them or because he is not playing gently enough and not thinking. (Not justifying what he is doing) we are constantly explaining/taking toys/early to bed etc to try and get the message through. He just does not think of the consequences, and it will begin to effect his friend making . He is really sensitive and his behaviour will spiral if he thinks he is being told off unfairly or if he is worried about getting into trouble he gets nightmares and cant sleep so we tend to have patches where he gets into a cycle of being overly boistrous and gets in trouble which increases the behaviour.

The other side is a maternal side where the mum of the small child is running to the school and have heard her forcing and leading explanations out of her child, when he clearly knows they were both playing. Because my son is so much bigger than hers i think she thinks he is bullying him when from what I can tell they are playing games they probably shouldnt be and they are both at fault.

It makes me feel isolated at the school gates and embarresed. I do speak to a couple of the other parents, but i feel like i constantly being watched. The other mum hasnt said anything to me and to be honest i wish she would so i could put people right. He has a baby sister and he is wonderful with her , he does what i say at home and is helpful, He is brilliant academically. He is mischievious and although does what i ask can struggle to stop when i tell him to stop doing something.

I dont know what to do. How can i make him be more mindful of his actions ?

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 22-Mar-13 12:19:15

I don't know, but as the mother of a 'smaller' boy in a class with a great big boy who is constantly pushing and shoving and bullying my son - and others - I really urge you to work with the school to solve the issues.

lljkk Fri 22-Mar-13 12:22:36

Sympathy, I have similar ongoing with 8yoDS.
What is his impulse control like in general?

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 12:30:43

I am in open dalogue with the school , I think its probably to early for them to do something and like I say its generally the group of them including the smaller child that are playing rough games . My child has said that he has tried to stay out of there way but they follow him and keep trying to get him to play. Thats what is making it really difficult, if he was running round terrorising them deliberatly and for no reason , there would probably be more that me and the school could do.

his impulse control is pretty bad he acts first then regrets/thinks later. I can see him fighting with himself to put whatever i told him to put down, or not swing on the chair etc. but its more a mischief type stuff.

lljkk Fri 22-Mar-13 13:47:39

You might still have a chance to teach him more about thinking before acting. Don't despair, lots of reception boys have similar issues.

DS is also easily provoked or encouraged by the others; they enjoy getting him into trouble because they can (sigh) and he wants to impress/be their friend so is inclined to go along with their suggestions. Frustrating.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 14:04:46

that sounds very familiar . I wish i could just get into his head and make him think or get him to move to differant friends.

how do you do it though. the teacher said that they speak to the other children aswell and they are aware that some children do try to goad others into getting into trouble.(not excusing his behaviour) but it doesnt make it any easier at the school gate does it

Andro Fri 22-Mar-13 16:00:15

Is part of his problem that he doesn't know his own strength? DS is big and strong for his age, this has caused issues (and still does after a growth spurt) but karate has taught him a much greater awareness of his strength.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 16:13:57

Andro- definately he has always been incredibly strong but he doesnt have the maturity to control it. when he was 2 we had a problem with him picking up other children even 4 year olds (he doesnt do it now). He also towers over most of the children in his class. I think there is also an element of showing off in the group. I think Karate could work but i dont where to start looking for local clubs that would take children his age (5)

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 16:25:48

I think 'boisterous' needs to be tackled. What have you done to calm your child down, to teach him to be gentle, to show him how to let off energy without touching others? You say he can't control it - why not?

If he is hurting people, which he is, you need to look carefully at every thing he does and assess whether he is being allowed to be rough. For example, if you let him grab you, you are giving the message he can grab others. Do you ever grab him as a game for example?

I don't think kids need to grab each other at all really, or push or jostle. I think they can be taught how to play in basically a non-contact way. Then contact is reserved for things like hand holding, a hug, teaming up, linking arms - positive stuff. Of course not all the time, but most of the time.

The size stuff is a red herring, he can't hurt anyone if he doesn't touch them.

Also if the school generally allow rough play they need to rethink IMO.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 16:26:36

When he picked kids up age 2 what did you do about it?

EggBasket Fri 22-Mar-13 16:29:19

Is he in reception or Y1? DS1 was like this in reception, struggled for a while to find the boundaries of what was acceptable play and what was too rough. We went through a LONG phase of getting notes in his contact book about pushing/shoving during playtime (his behaviour in the classroom was impeccable).

What helped? Firstly his teacher suggested a system whereby he got a smiley or sad face in his contact book every day (one for morning, one for afternoon). I backed this up at home by letting him go on the laptop after school only if he had two smiley faces. I also did a lot of talking with him about stopping and thinking before doing something, "Will this get me a sad face or a smiley face?"

Secondly, I think it was just a question of time. DS1 has always been ahead of his peers in reading/writing/maths but behind on social skills! His emotional maturity has come on loads in the last 6-12 months (he's just turned 6) and playtime behaviour has been fine since he's been in Y1.

EggBasket Fri 22-Mar-13 16:31:33

Oh and reception teacher did a lot of work with the whole class about gentle play. There was a group of boys in his class who just seemed to gee each other up into a frenzy (DS1 was one of them); the group was broken up when they went into different classes for Y1 and that helped too.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 17:03:37

when he picked up other children , we explained that he wasnt allowed to do this , we went through how people would feel if they got hurt etc andused time out step. hence he no longer does it.

if he needs to calm down he counts breathes etc and does a "turtle" technique if something has upset him. he can be gentle he is gentle with his baby sister.

The problem is when it comes to running round and playing with his piers. he may get carried away in the excitement and although he does the same as everyone else , they usually come off worse. I agree the school should not be allowing as much rough play as they do, but you cant stop 200 children playing superhero games etc.

No he doesnt play rough with me i dont allow it . I never have because i know that he will soon be able to over power me so i never wanted to get into that. he did used to play fight with his uncle and dad like most boys but we have stopped that now.

with regards to he control it - he doesnt know his own strength and doesnt understand that if he and his friends are playing a rough game he could do them more damage then they can do him, because that doesnt factor into it for him because he is not old enough to understand. At the end of the day there are grown men who cant control there own strength. for example on an none play fight note he and his friend was hugging but he squeezed to tight and hurt him.

As previously said when these things have happend we have tried various punishments taking toys time out early to bed etc. we discuss with him his actions etc.

Yes ideally children wouldnt touch each other other than for those things but if you have a group of boys together playing boxing or ben 10 or seeing who is the strongest its going to happen. Im afraid size is an issue for him, because those games do get played and i need him to learn to realise that he cannot be as boistrous as the other boys because he is so much bigger and stronger. To clarify he isnt trying to hurt anyone or push someone to the ground it happens as a consequence of the rough games he is playing and is really upset if he does hurt someone. Unless he thinks he is protecting his friends from the older children which has happened aswell.

In addition to the calming down , he does struggle too calm once he has reached a certain point its like a switch goes off. I need a way of him being able to learn to calm himself before then and be able to walk away from that particular group of children. self displine is what i need help helping him with. He does have hyperactive issues.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 17:09:44

egg basket that sounds a lot like our situation he is ahead of his piers academically but not so much socialy . he is in reception and only started there in January so was the new boy. I might suggest that to his teacher when I see her next . sounds like a really good idea about the smiley faces . it will help me monitor it.

Andro Fri 22-Mar-13 17:19:21

for example on an none play fight note he and his friend was hugging but he squeezed to tight and hurt him.

DS has had (and occasionally still has) problems like this, times where he thinks he's being gentle but he's still exerting too much force. This is likely to be a recurring issue as he grows up.

Searching for karate clubs: Google Karate + your town and then speak to the instructors/ask at sports centers about classes would be a good place to start.

It's a difficult situation because what you don't want is for him to be scared of his own strength/scared to make any physical contact at all - that just causes even more problems in the future. Does he have some really good friends who's parents you know? If so, could you get one or more of them on board with play dates where you can role play how to deal with accidental excess strength?

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 17:27:05

andro - that seems like a good idea. we have some good friends who im sure wouldnt mind us borrowing there son . there son is a couple of years older than him and they have grown up together. Is that what yo did with yours?

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 17:30:32

'like most boys' I think you need to watch phrases like that. That is an excuse for aggression based on being a boy. Maybe he has been taught he can be rough with boys/men but not girls/women hence why he is gentle with his sister but rough at school.

You make a lot of excuses for rough play. I would be mortified if my children had ever played boxing.

Sounds like both a general issue of aggressive play tolerated at school plus you excusing him beng aggressive. I repeat, he couldn't hurt anyone if he wasn't playing rough. So teach him not to play rough, stop saying 'like all boys' because it isn't all boys.

lljkk Fri 22-Mar-13 17:35:44

Or you could argue that girls need to learn how to do rough play, not be socially discouraged from it. Girls that have no physical confidence irritate me.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 17:37:41

I think physical play is not the same as aggressive play.

We should not encourage anyone to play fight. Hurting people is not fun.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 17:47:49

yellow to let you know i do not even allow boxing in our home , violent video games etc. I do not like the fact he is rough housing but I think you are being unrealistic to expect 4/5 year olds not to play rough games in the school playground. No it isnt all boys girls can play rough to, its called being a child and learning. How ever much we as parents dont like it. How can you stop a child wanting to play the same as his piers.

as i have previously said the behaviour doesnt go unpunished and i am trying to teach him that he shouldnt do it. he also couldnt hurt the other children if none of them was playing rough. i am looking for ways for him to help curb his behaviour and think about his actions and self disipline after all i am not in the playground with him. if you cant offer any useful or realistic advice then leave the thread alone,

and to let you know your kids have probably or will at some point get involved in a whole host of games which you wont like and you wont be able to do anything about.if they havent or wont depending on age then quite frankly they arent normal.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 18:04:50

Well, it seems you think being rough is normal. So why bother posting at all?

If you think it is so normal why do you say you feel embarrassed and isolated at the gates?

Andro Fri 22-Mar-13 18:06:17

Is that what yo did with yours?

Yes. Role play, karate, stop/count/think/walk (for when he was being goaded), different consistencies of play dough to help him learn how much force he was exerting with his hands...and understanding that his strength would be a problem after a growth spurt (it was important to define when he was being bad and when he was just now aware of his strength, we've never punished for what he couldn't control).

He has 2 very close friends who we worked with (explanations and role play, very much supported by their parents) and they now remind him when he's not in as much control as he needs to be. They know isn't him being mean, he knows they're not being nasty when they tell him he's hurt them - his issues are far less frequent.

Andro Fri 22-Mar-13 18:08:22

*not aware

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 18:14:41

when children play rough they dont intend to hurt one another and while rough housing is a normal part of development it is a less desirable aspect.

the embaresment is because he has hurt someone. wether accidently or not. and i do not want him to do this. As I have previously stated i do not like him playing rough and I dont encourage it. However as a sensible human being i accept it will happen,

I posted to ask for advice on getting him to realise his own stregth , and learning self disipline which everyone else has managed to grasp except you so please do me a favour and leave the thread alone . Quite frankly you are ridiculous.

Andro that sounds like a really good idea with the play dough and something we could easily do at home. Thankyou

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 18:15:39

Hmmm ds is the biggest and possibly strongest boy in his year. He's also old enough at just 6 to understand that he is bigger and can't be too rough.

It really sounds to me like you're excusing his behaviour to a certain extent. I'm afraid he isn't being boisterous IMO he's being naughty - or at least that's how I'd view it if it were my son.

Ds has a friend who his mum says is boisterous / likes rough play / doesn't know his own strength eye. Everyone else thinks he's badly behaved and tbh the kids all avoid him precisely because he is too rough. I feel sorry for him actually because he's never been challenged on it and doesn't understand why the other kids won't play with him.

I don't mean to be harsh I just think the fact that he's big is entirely irrelevant. He's hurting people . End of.

purples Fri 22-Mar-13 18:15:41

As a mum of a child who has suffered from a child "playing" rough, I have seen the other side of the story.

You say the mother of the other child hasn't spoken directly to you, but I didn't approach the other parents either, I only approached the school. This is the policy that my childs school recommends. The school wanted to sort out the issues without parents getting into discussions (and potential arguments) in the playground which may result the whole problem just escalating.

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 18:18:57

Oh and I've recently had massive issues with the boy I mentioned 'playing rough' and hurting ds. I went straight to the school not his mum even though I know her. I knew she'd do nothing and the issue was during school hours anyways. As it happens the boy is now only allowed out for half f playtime until he shoes the maturity to play nicely.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 18:24:41

I would like to point out he has actually hurt a child twice, by accident. which is why im asking for advice before it gets worse.

Bea there is as im sure you know a big differnence between a just turned 5 year old who is behind in social development and a six year old. and yes if he was still doing it in y1/2 i would say he was being naughty. and I am challenging him on it.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 18:26:13

purples the other child is also playing rough

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 22-Mar-13 18:29:03

I think you are making a lot of excuses, and not really taking this seriously.

IME, schools do not allow the kind of play that you are talking about. Running, yes, but not 'play-fighting' or 'rough-housing' as you call it.

We have rough and tumble with our boys, just like my parents did with us. Our children understand that this is a fun thing you do with your family to let off steam and that it isn't an appropriate way to behave with your friends and classmates.

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 18:30:18

I wouldn't have allowed it at 5 either, or 4 tbh and actually would be cross with my 2.5 year old doing it too.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 18:33:39

I am not sure why I get called ridiculous just because I think children should be taught not to hurt other people.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 18:37:07

so your telling me your kids have never played super heroes or power rangers ben 10 , dragons , cowboys etc. and again it is not something i am allowing it is happening at school at lunchtimes and he is being punished for it. it is also a group of them playing it including the child that he has hurt .

The advice I have been asking for has been ways to help with self displine , letting him know his own strength and how i get him to stop playing those games when i am not there or stop playing with the children rough housing.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 18:37:35

yellow that is what i am trying to teach him

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 18:38:19

Yellow - I don't know either . I agree with what you said.

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 18:42:27

Have you told him he's being naughty and that you're cross? Have you made him apologise to the kids he's hurt?

That's what I'd do. None of this 'teaching him his own strength' business, cold hard 'that's NOT ok'.

My son (and daughter) play cowboys / star wars / whatever but they don't get each other apart from the one boy I talked about earlier. Or at least f they do (eg ds got elbowed in the face the other day by a boy as he turned round - he apologised and ds let it go because he knew it wasn't meant to and it wasn't a constant thing) its accidental.

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 18:43:07

Don't hurt each other not get!

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 18:48:51

My kids played those type of games but were not allowed to be rough. The game is not the issue, it is the physical contact within the game.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 18:59:36

yes i do tell him that he has been naughty it is unacceptable and I am cross . He has any privilidges (telly treats etc) taken off him i have taken toys etc. what he has done has been by accident. The incident where he pushed was in roleplay and he should have done a light or pretend push and he did a hard push. the child fell onto a box which hurt him. That was in the class room.

the other timenot an accident th smaller child grabbed my sons face and he did it back. the other times have been where he has got involved in trying to protect his friends from an older child who was trying to hurt them. The rest is where he tells me he plays those games and with a particular group of children that keep punching him and i dont want him to get into trouble. I do need him to learn his own strength the as i have previously stated he has hurt a child giving them a hug. Also he tries to play with another friend and they follow him because they want him to play those games. which is why i want hi to learn some self dispiline

purples Fri 22-Mar-13 18:59:43

As I previously said, my child has suffered from another childs "rough" play. But, I feel its essential to work it out for the sake of all the children concerned, afterall they will be in the same playground for the next 6 years.

You say both children are playing rough, but what does the school say?
It's difficult for me to completely understand what is happening in your childs playground. However, as a parent I know it can be difficult to be neutral about your childs behaviour. Its easy as a parent to always think the best of your child.

The school is in a neutral position, and are in the best place to tell you exactly what is going on in school time. Is it just one child that there are issues with? bear in mind that if there are several children having problems, then its more likely that your child is at fault. The teachers will have seen similar problems before, they know your child (and any other children involved), they are in the best place to tell you if it is a serious problem and offer some positive advice.
My advice would be to work with the school, and keep in regular contact with the teacher.

O wow reading this sounds like my situation but reversed! My youngest son is quite small and i would say a good bit lighter than most of his friends in school. I have told him until i'm blue in the face to try and play non contact games but he loves running, chasing , rough and tumble. He has often got hurt but i know that it is not the other child's faults, he is only doing what my son is doing. I have told my son that he is not allowed any play fighting because i know he will get hurt. He is getting better.

My son's best friend is always getting into trouble in school and i have told his teacher on one occasion that i witnessed that he had only done exactly the same as the other boys were doing, yes he is the biggest in the class. My son on the other hand is so slight he never hurts anyone in play.

Your son sounds lovely and i really feel for him, my eldest son was the biggest and probably strongest in school so i know what it is like to be you. Just keep on doing what you are doing, constant reminding of the rules of playing nicely. Reward good days and chat about his mistakes on the bad days. He will get better with controlling himself when excited.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 19:07:55

What do you mean by 'role play'? You mean a teacher was asking him to act out pushing someone in a class activity? Why?

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 19:10:22

I would be very worried about a school environment where people keep punching him btw. That is not normal at all.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Fri 22-Mar-13 19:14:21

Really do feel for you. I also have a tall and very strong little boy.

He has got a lovely gentle nature and was never one of those hitters like so many are at a young age.

After school (there is absolutely no pretend super hero fighting allowed during school), I have often seen very small boys really laying in to him, and because of his nature he often just lets them carry on. However, on a couple of occasions he has probably used 50% of his strength (because he knows to be gentle) and they end up crying, but it's perfectly okay with their mothers to allow it when it's the other way round. Very uneven in my book!

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 19:23:26

purples the school have said its not just him. and the dinner ladies are aware of a few games like the boxing one that are being played. my ds has come home with bruises etc from the other child and other children. they have said that they arent overly concerned with him directly as it is a group situation, but they have said bacause of his size/strength it causes him more of a problem although he is doing the same as his friends. from what i can gather it was happening before charlie started. my concern is that i dont want him to play like this because he will get hurt/hurt someone else/get into trouble and it shouldnt be happing.

yellow ironically it was to demonstrate good/bad behaviour.

chocolate i wish the other childs mum could see that side to. i do feel terrible when he has hurt him even though i know he is doing it to him aswell. because he is tiny in comparison. and i am trying to curb it. but as i say its a group thing ike your friends boy he is just the biggest and i worry because of that he might really hurt someone. thanks you have made me feel better

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 19:26:34

keepcoolandcollected that is the other side of it charlie has come home with bite marks!

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 19:35:31

Are you saying the school are aware of boxing games resulting in bruises and are fine with that? Again, not normal.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Fri 22-Mar-13 19:36:20

Yes, sure can be a bit of a minefield with lots of double standards in the mix!

EggBasket Fri 22-Mar-13 19:37:04

The OP is clearly taking the matter seriously otherwise she wouldn't have started the thread! Ime it is totally normal behaviour for some DC - not acceptable, not desirable, but not unusual either. Some kids take a long time to walk, talk, potty train, read or ride a bike. Some take a long time to learn the rules of playground behaviour (a v different environment from home, or preschool). If Op's child was in Y1 and still doing this, it would be a different kettle of fish. But totally normal for reception.

OP, keep at it. Talk to school and work out a consistent approach that rewards gentle play and punishes rough play. He will get it as long as you are firm and consistant.

mercibucket Fri 22-Mar-13 19:38:32

There is a little boy like this at our school. He is sweet and good natured but even in nursery, looked quite literally 3 years older, he is also a bit immature for his age, so a bad combo as people expect him to act, say, 7, but he acts, say, 3 and is actually 4. I would ask the school to direct lunchtime play a bit more so the superhero games are not encouraged for a while, and yes to something that allows him to run off physical steam appropriately eg karate, or maybe judo in a year or so? Is he any good at footie as well btw? That strength could come in handy

WeAllHaveWings Fri 22-Mar-13 19:38:50

Dh has always wrestled and play fought with ds(9) but always made sure he knew when things hurt, this taught him the boundaries in physical play.

IMO kids will and should play physically, its fun! but they need to do it at home first, from an early age, where they can be taught the boundaries. This includes not being physical when upset and not being physical with someone who doesn't want to join in.

Ds's friend was over last night (after karate) and they were both play wrestling on the floor, it was very physical and competitive but not once did they hurt each over/lose their temper and cross the line. They were aware of not hurting each other, know the boundaries and know if they cross the line there will be consequences.

He knows I would come down on him like a tonne of bricks if he hurts someone else intentionally or because he wasn't thinking,especially if that person didn't want to play.

This is better than just not playing physically all. It did take time for ds to learn not to hurt or get carried away, especially when he was desperate to win when wrestling with his dad, but eventually it clicked.

Like others, also recommend karate which ds has done since he was 5.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 19:39:42

yellow - i dont think they are fine with i think they are doing things in house, in the mean time i need to try and encourage my ds not to get involved etc which is what i had been asking advice for.

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 19:43:08

Do you complain to the school about the incident with him pushing the boy! I'd have written a formal letter of complait.

Also, do you make him apologise? Whether or not he has already done so in school I'd be making him do it in the playground too.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 19:46:00

thanks egg basket and merci and wings. Im glad it doesnt seem to be a problem im just having and i have had some great advice i think the karate is well worth a look into. he hasnt started a football club yet he plays with his dad etc. thinking of sending him though. he does ice skating and swimming at the minute . but i think karate and football will get him interacting a bit more and help him control his strength

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 19:46:57

It is not hard to ensure a particular game is not played, they just ban it.

I am pretty hmm at the idea of a school in 2013 not coming down hard on boxing.

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 19:49:57

I think you're missing the point a bit tbh - he needs to control his strength why? Because he's involved in 'play ' fighting. He shouldn't be play fighting therefore shouldn't need to control his strength. If all the other boys are doing it you need to do 2 things 1/ teach your ds not to follow the crowd and 2/ kick up merry hell with the school

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 19:51:27

bea yes i make him apologise , as i say he doesnt like to hurt people he is really remorseful and he gets really upset about it if he does.
I spoke to the school directly.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 19:59:46

bea and yellow yes it is not on that these games are going on. the school are aware and dealing with it. however the situation is that they are going on and i dont want my ds following the crowd as i have said numerous times and i can tell him till i am blue in the face take all his toys etc but i cannot police him in the playground which is why i have been asking advice on his self displine. as for the strength this is needed to prevent an incident like the role play and where he has hugged his friend to hard or where he pulls his toy to hard or puts a plate down to hard. there are so many he reasons why he needs to learn to control his strength. which is why i have been asking for advice on that. and with all due respect all i have been doing is repeating myself to you both. and you havent offerd any usefull advice whatsoever.

purples Fri 22-Mar-13 20:03:56

I'm sure the karate teacher will encourages him to learn control, but the lessons may teach him how to be more aggressive, there is a very fine dividing line between the two. Is he mature enough to know the difference?

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 20:08:24

I have offered advice actually. I have Said what I'd do. I have told you I have a tall son, I have said I can see both sideS. I can't just tell you 'boys will be boys ' though which is what you seem to want.

You can say you want advice on x/y/z but people are allowed to ask questions you know? To get the full picture?

How are his motor skills in general?

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 20:10:45

purples in a controled enviroment he will. and ive done karate myself when i was younger . it wasnt aggresive at all. it taught disipline and respect which is why im quite keen on the idea. i do see what your saying though and the first signs of any trouble because of it he wouldnt be doing it any more

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 20:15:06

I am very confused. At the start you said it was normal for boys to play rough, in fact said I was ridiculous for suggesting you should teach your child not to. You said all boys play these rough games, normal part of any play ground.

Now you are saying the school shouldn't let them play these games and you don't want your son to play.

This all sounds rather odd.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 20:15:30

bea you have said you wouldnt accept it or allow it. you havent said how you would go about it.
his motor skills are fine heavy handed but that comes back to the strength thing. in fact he walked etc really early

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 20:18:57

yellow keep up . it is normal as i have previously said for these games to be played as is clear by the other people posting. it is however not desirable. i said you was ridiculous for saying children should never touch each other , other than holding hands hugs etc, and saying your children would never play rough games which you later said they did.

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 20:21:07

Interesting - my ds walked very early and is very tall but also what I assumed to be just clumsy. Turns out now there may be other issues.

I did say what I'd do eg apologise etc am not a mind reader so couldn't tell you'd already done this.

Do you have this attitude with other parents at the school gate? Perhaps that's why you feel isolated.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 20:27:22

no bea but i had already said i had made him apologise and again you havent actually said what you would do just that you wouldnt stand for it and you have presumed that i am just happily allowing him to carry on and not actually reading what i am saying or asking. you got up into your ivory tower and seem pretty comfy. so yes you have annoyed me. no i dont take this attitude i speak and say hello to most of the mums down there the majority are fine. I just feel awkward

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 20:35:35

any way thanks people for advice on getting him into karate , the roleplay and play dough. and the stickers idea. thankyou thse who have said about there similar situations. and thankyou bea and yellow if nothing else i have more strength in my convictions and wont feel so awkward at the school gate.I feel much better and in control. thanks

purples Fri 22-Mar-13 20:45:10

If your son gets a reputation with the other Mums, then you may find his social life outside school diminishing, as Mums may be reluctant to have your child round. Ultimately this may actually aggravate the situation as your son has to learn how to behave appropriately around his classmates. ( I know thats very easy to say and much harder to change).
Maybe karate is worth a shot....but I'd let his teachers (both school and katate teachers) know what you are trying to achieve, so that they can monitor how he is coping with it and give you feedback on any improvements/issues. Just be prepared to listen to what they have to say.( as I said easier to say than do)
Atleast you are trying something....

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Fri 22-Mar-13 20:52:05

Which planet are you on? From my observations most normal boys play fight. Unless they have very controlling of character mothers of course.

purples Fri 22-Mar-13 21:07:19

But....I think there is a difference between play fighting and actually hurting each other....

EggBasket Fri 22-Mar-13 21:13:12

Here is my thread from a year ago when I was going through the same with DS1 - some more good advice on it. It finally started to click about halfway through the summer term and he has had no problems since then.

Littlelyon i can totally understand you feeling uncomfortable at the school gates but try not to feel that way. Like you say in your Op you are doing the right things to let your son know that your not happy with some of his behaviour. I hope the mother of the smaller child is telling her son it's wrong too but i suspect that she thinks he is always the victim.

It is so hard when your son is seen as the problem when i'm almost sure that most of the children are doing the very same, the difference is they don't have his strength. My sons school has really had to monitor the games the children were playing because they were all getting too rough. Your son's school needs to deal with this, make an appointment and tell them how you feel. They need to help you deal with this.

As for people saying children shouldn't put their hands on each other! Thats impossible, all the children i see love playing tag, run along grabbing each others hoods, grab arms, laughing as they do. They can get rough but it's mostly excitement . It's not bullying we are talking about here, its rough and tumble that is not being monitored properly.

Redbindy Fri 22-Mar-13 21:22:05

I'd worry about him being too boisterous for his piers. We live on the Isle of Wight and Shanklin Pier got washed into the sea a few years ago by a boisterous sea.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 21:35:02

I never said they played roughly. I said 'they were not allowed to be rough'. Yes they pretended to be superheroes but that meant flying around and shooting laser beams.

My kids didn't play fight and were taught never to grab, push, kick, hit, wrestle.

You keep trying to,claim all kids do it. They don't.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 21:37:48

Ilovechocolate -I don't mean not to touch, I mean no hitting, pushing, grabbing, wrestling, kicking.

Tag etc is not rough play even in my sensitive eyes!

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 21:38:29

thank you keepcool
thanks for the thread egg basket really helpfull
thanks chocolate summed up beautifully
purples its play fighting but it goes to far . all the children apologise to each other when they have and carry on their day , actually the people with the l issue with it are probably us adultsmore than them

Soupa Fri 22-Mar-13 21:41:42

I have had boys at both ends of the spectrum for impulse control and boisterousness. They out grow either trait when appropriately encouraged, most children are more equably mellow and sociable but yes some of their parents do think they are shit hot at parenting and that you sucksmile breathe easy, it's a long game and consistency gets there in the end. most parents won't judge you and will be sympathetic if you express your concerns and worries and if they see you trying to show him the right way...

Your child is still young and still learning, when my boisterous brute was that age he was a bouncing ball of chaos and a hugely physical force dishing out hugs, squeezes and wallops without care for consequence. he grew up and eventually everyone else met the lovely thoughtful boy I knew much earlier. His other brother even mastered eye contact and minor social chat by 7 ish whilst the third grew up utterly uneventful in every social situation.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 21:51:04

cheers soupa.

ok yellow im sure you havent and never will have a child that gets carried away

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 22-Mar-13 21:59:52

My days of this stage are done, but no, I didn't. I may have just been lucky with my kids, more than happy to accept I was, but my attitude was very different to yours because I Started from the beleif that I don't think it is acceptable for kids to be rough.

I hope it works out for you.

littlelyon Fri 22-Mar-13 22:06:54

cheers i will keep posted on his turn around

BeaWheesht Fri 22-Mar-13 22:18:38

Haha at me being a controlling mother grin try telling ds that. He play fights at home with his sister and us and with friends outside of school but afaik not at school or at least we've had no complaints and I know the school tend to be quite tough on this kind of thing. I didn't assume you were doing nothing I just asked a few questions, I didn't assume either way.

Anyways I don't actually really care what you think of me but I hope you get your little boy sorted out and he's happy at school.

Oh and also I was trying to help by asking about motor skills because of personal experience as I explained - I genuinely thought it could be an issue when he's doing things like hugging too hard and also, I think you mentioned putting things down roughly etc.

cory Fri 22-Mar-13 23:17:38

I agree with other posters that the school should have stricter rules about rough games.

Also, not so sure about karate as the solution for boys already inclined to rough housing. Ime all the roughest boys I have known have done karate and there has been no evidence that it has calmed them down or taught them to control their impulses: the karate teacher is no doubt teaching them this but they simply don't take that bit on board. Boys that age can be very good at selective hearing; they get what they want from karate and miss out what adults see as the essential part.

Soupa Sat 23-Mar-13 00:13:42

Yeah my timid one did karate and enjoyed it but I wouldn't have sent the other, I would probably have made an effective ninja and caused much bruising to classmates.

purples Sun 24-Mar-13 13:56:29

Have thought over what you have said, and on consideration, think that maybe his maturity level is too low for karate, maybe try it in a few years times. At the moment it may just teach him skills that get him further into trouble.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 18:59:22

"My kids didn't play fight and were taught never to grab, push, kick, hit, wrestle."

If I had a £1.00 every time a proud parent has said this.

So many times these people never seem to see what their children are up to, and in fact they are usually the most aggressive children.

Take off your rose tinted spectacles.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Sun 24-Mar-13 19:05:56

Not all children fight. Really, they don't. I was also a teacher. Not all kids fought.

Why is it so hard to believe?

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 19:28:50

I suppose I am very cynical because I have observed so many children whose parents are totally blind to what they get up to. However, they are the first to fiercely defend those children if they themselves get hurt.

Yes, there are children with lovely meek and mild temperaments, as well as parents that want to guide their children (as littlelyon does) in the right direction, but sadly they are very much in the minority in my experience.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Sun 24-Mar-13 20:04:06

Well, the place to start is by saying it isn't normal/inevitable and not tolerating it at all. Saying 'all children play rough and if yours don't they are not normal' is not a good attitude.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 20:08:38

I have to disagree with you again.

Most normal children do play fight because it is in their genes.

As is picking up sticks in the woods and shooting at each other.

All totally normal.

Children that don't are usually not quite with it.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 20:09:39

To be clear, I am referring to boys.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 20:11:10

Another point Yellow - where do you get the 'rough' bit from?

BeaWheesht Sun 24-Mar-13 20:35:29

What does 'not usually quite with it' mean???

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 20:51:59

Slightly odd.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Sun 24-Mar-13 20:53:00

Oh my.

purples Sun 24-Mar-13 21:01:29

WOW Keepcoolcalmandcollected,
so if boys don't fight, then you are not quite with it and slightly odd?????
Thats quite an amazing statement to make!!!!
I really can't agree with such a sweeping generalisation.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 21:16:49

No please don't twist things as Yellow has tried.

Play fighting is totally normal plain and simple - no more no less.

purples Sun 24-Mar-13 21:31:47

I don't want to misunderstand you but I just think that although many boys enjoy play fighting there are some boys who don't enjoy it. There is a wide spectrum of normal behaviour and both are normal types of behaviour.
However it is never acceptable for boys to take play fighting to extremes whereby other children suffer.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sun 24-Mar-13 21:47:45

I am NOT saying it is acceptable for boys to take play fighting to extremes whereby other children suffer.

Where has that come from?

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Sun 24-Mar-13 22:30:27

The thread is about a child hurting his peers at school so the whole topic under discussion is play fighting being taken to a level where other children suffer confused.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Sun 24-Mar-13 22:38:50

I have no idea why a big grin is on that post!

purples Mon 25-Mar-13 08:25:23

Hi keepcoolcalmand collected, this thread is about a boy who is large for his age and who enjoys play fighting but he does not have the maturity of age to understand that what he regards as play is harming other children.
Even if 2 boys decide to rough play together, there has to be a certain amount of control in their behaviour towards each other.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Mon 25-Mar-13 09:36:15

Purples - Absolutely that's the whole point of this thread - his mother is asking for advice. No one on this thread is condoning rough behaviour.

purples Mon 25-Mar-13 10:47:06

Yes, and I have tried to offer the mother positive advice. Its a problem that it is in everyones interest in solving.

However, some people have tried to say that all boys enjoy play fighting, I was just pointing out that not all boys do.

littlelyon Mon 25-Mar-13 11:12:38

To confirm the boys my ds is playing with definitely like to play rough he is not doing anything different to them and he comes home with marks etc aswell.

I do try and disuade the rough play and he has tried to tell them he doesn't want to play but he ends up playing with them any how. After all there his friends.

I am want to instill some self displine in him so he can say no and mean no. And I want to know that he can be gentle when playing these games so that he doesn't inflict an injury onto his friends. Especially as one of them is tiny and my ds is so big.

This weekend we have been doing some role play and exploring how different things make us feel. I have also been playing games so he can practice controling his strength. And we have been practicing calming down when he gets to excited.

I am looking at different sports and hopefully by the end of next term he will be settled and not having these issues. I worked out he has actually only been there 6weeks.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Mon 25-Mar-13 12:04:32

With respect I think we will have to agree to disagree.

From my own personal observations, I have NEVER yet seen a boy that hasn't play/pretend fought.

(Likewise I have also seen some very potentially dangerous and malious behaviour - ie. absolutely not play/pretend fighting).

Your children must be in the few that are the exception to the rule. I am not knocking this whatsover, on the contrary it is very good.

purples Mon 25-Mar-13 13:17:32

As you say Keepcalm and cool, we must disagree ( I hate generalisations about childrens behaviour, they are all unique; to say all boys play fight, is in a similar vein to saying all girls play with doll. But lets not get into that argument on this thread, as you say we must agree to disagree.)

As I have previously said; My best advice to littlelyon, is to keep talking to the teaching staff, they are in the best position to offer good advice, they will have seen such problems before, and know your child. Keep talking to his teacher and if necessary headteacher and push for the school to offer practical help for your ds (coaching/advice/mind gym etc.etc.) Don't go into battle with teachers, but listen to their advice.
With other parents you say you feel uncomfortable but you will find more respect from other mothers if you are open about your problems (no one has a perfect child, they just have differing problems), if other mums are aware that you are trying your best to tackle any perceived problems, they may be more sympathetic.

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