Vaccinations

(94 Posts)
redkaybee Wed 12-Dec-12 03:09:20

Quick question on the controversial topic of vaccinations. I suggested to my gp I would like to consider a delayed vaccination schedule for my daughter. After the 5 in 1 she was inconsolable and now suffers reflux. I do want to vaccinate but not so many all at once. The Ho consulted with st thomases children's hospital and was apparently advised against a spread out schedule so I have been told follow the nhs schedule or I must go private for an alternative schedule. Is there anyone out there in london who has managed an alternative vacc schedule from an nhs gp?
Many thanks in advance

redkaybee Wed 12-Dec-12 03:10:52

Oops didn't check for mistakes. 'Ho' should read 'gp' and no it wasn't a Freudian slip!

ZuleikaD Wed 12-Dec-12 06:25:40

The reflux is unlikely to be connected to the vaccination, it's probably just coincidence.

Cupcakemummy85 Wed 12-Dec-12 08:21:34

This is so interesting because my dd was the same after her one year jabs. It was awful, like they injected her with a whole new personality. 5 in 1 is sometimes a bit too much for some children in my opinion. She was sort of back to normal after six weeks but my husband is considering going private too. Id be interested to know if u manage to find a suitable clinic. smile

Welovecouscous Wed 12-Dec-12 08:27:06

Baby jabs is the private option we are considering.

sashh Wed 12-Dec-12 08:29:06

Well go along with the NHS schedule but when it is time for the jab phone the GP and say "Sorry dc has a fever" and then keep doing it.

redkaybee Wed 12-Dec-12 09:59:06

Baby jabs is where the alternative schedule came from. Unfortunately their jabs are over £100 each and that is prohibitive for me (single mum with no income at present) I was hoping my nhs gp would follow this schedule as I am only asking for nhs vaccines just in a spaced out order but they have refused. Daughter has had 2 jabs already started her late and managed to wangle them separately. She is now 4 months old. Of I keep calling saying she has a fever when do I stop doing that?

ZuleikaD Wed 12-Dec-12 11:16:19

As long as she's had all her whooping cough jabs. There's an epidemic at the moment.

bruffin Wed 12-Dec-12 11:23:13

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ZuleikaD Wed 12-Dec-12 11:30:08

I am so happy that's true - I'd heard it but I wasn't sure. So - scaring parents into forking out £100 per jab. Probably makes a mint.

Welovecouscous Wed 12-Dec-12 12:05:27

Bruffin, wasn't it that the advertising standards agency asked that info saying mmr was linked with issues was removed? Not the same as saying he lied.

Red they can't really stop you spacing vax. We had some of DS's jabs late as he had been ill at the time that were due. No one has ever criticised us.

sh77 Wed 12-Dec-12 12:17:21

I delayed and spread out all vaccs

sh77 Wed 12-Dec-12 12:19:23

Oops sorry pressed send too soon. I delayed and spread them out On nhs with no problem. The nurse was fine with it and did not question my choice.

bruffin Wed 12-Dec-12 12:21:35

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

stargirl1701 Wed 12-Dec-12 12:30:48

Our LO was the same. Reflux diagnosed following 8 week vaccination. I went ahead with the 12 week vaccination. She got a rash after that. These seem like normal things to me though. I wouldn't choose to delay vaccination unless she had had a serious allergic reaction. If she had stopped breathing then I would've reconsidered. The risk of death or disability from tetanus, diphtheria, polio, whooping cough, meningitis, influenza, pneumococcal, etc. much higher than the risk of vaccination IMO.

redkaybee Wed 12-Dec-12 12:53:58

Hi thanks for the responses - i understand it to be a controversial topic. I'm not really looking to open the vaccination/ non vaccination debate.I understand there is a whooping cough outbreak. I understand there has been a recent measles outbreak. I understand thimerosal was only removed from vaccinations in recent years. I understand the 5 in 1 vaccine was only introduced in 2004. I have done a lot of research. I am asking if people have managed to find gps within the london area who have agreed to space out vaccinations.
Many thanks in advance.

sh77 Wed 12-Dec-12 15:14:21

no need to go private. the nhs vaccination schedule is not law. i cant see how a gp can refuse. i deliberately delayed and spaced out but the spacings became even wider as ds was teething or ill for a number of weeks. just book them in when you want to have them done. where in london are you?

bruffin Wed 12-Dec-12 15:22:15

As others have said just make the appointment when you want it done, dont waste money on places like babyjabs.

radicalsubstitution Wed 12-Dec-12 16:04:52

If I understand the concerns redkaybee has, it's not about timing the vaccinations, but more about not having all the scheduled vaccinations in one go.

Thus, if you say 'DC has a fever, I need to cancel' then all you are doing is shifting all the vaccinations backwards - not just one or two. This sort of defeats the object really?

Whilst I am sure you have done lots of research, there really is no scientifically reliable evidence that multiple vaccinations in one go cause any more severe a reaction than single vaccinations on their own. Everyone knows someone whose DC had a hideous reaction following a vaccination, but there is no evidence that the number of vaccinations given in one go is the actual cause.

Also remember that a single dose of the PCV vaccine in itself is protecting against 17 different types of pneumococcus.

notcitrus Wed 12-Dec-12 17:29:42

Your baby will be exposed to way more types of antigen in the doc's waiting room than the five in the vaccine! Your immune system reacts to thousands of antigens a day - five rather than one or three is nothing.
All the research suggests that the number of adverse events after jabs is no more than before them, but it's in our nature to look for possible causes, ie anything that happened recently that sounds plausible.

incywincyspideragain Wed 12-Dec-12 22:52:37

There is nothing wrong with delaying your babies vaccincies - vaccination in the UK isn't mandetory and you still have free, informed choice.
Your GP will get paid for each vaccination whenever they give them.
Do what you think is best for your baby not what everyone thinks on here.

redkaybee Thu 13-Dec-12 04:21:18

Hi sh77 I am in stockwell sw8. I have been with the same surgery for 8 years and am currently looking for a different surgery. I was under the impression vaccination is by choice. (There are severe immune diseases on both sides of the family and seeing my daughters immediate physical reaction to the 5 in 1 , which she is still experiencing now , makes me recognise just how potent these jabs are.) each child is different. I should be able to make a clear informed decision. This topic is controversial - for a reason . Information is biased / not readily available - for a reason. I am not refusing vaccines - we live in a large city. I am doing what I see fit for my daughter considering her history. I just cannot comprehend why the surgery would alienate in this way.

bruffin Thu 13-Dec-12 08:10:04

Your gp has taken the time to consult St Thomas for advice, doesn't sound like are doing anything to alienate you.
The only thing seem to have done wrong is give you different advice to what you want to hear.
As said above they are not going to refuse to vaccinate if you make an appointment late.
The information is very readily available just look on pub med or google scholar.

bruffin Thu 13-Dec-12 08:17:11

I can't link but Google the IOM
Vaccines adverse events and casualty.
It has looked at all the research available on side effects of the various vaccines.

bruffin Thu 13-Dec-12 08:20:15
redkaybee Thu 13-Dec-12 09:29:33

Bruffin - encephalitis would be a major concern to me . This study seems to show this has been caused by many if the vaccines on the market

sh77 Thu 13-Dec-12 10:26:00

I understand your concerns. I too am not anti-vacc but was concerned with giving ds so many so early. He had none until he was 18 months but has almost caught up. The nurse did not question my decision. I am in w9 and would have suggested my surgery if you were closer. Have you asked on the vaccinations board? Good luck.

bruffin Thu 13-Dec-12 13:33:21

Encephalitis caused by vaccines is much rarer than caused by the disease.

redkaybee Thu 13-Dec-12 13:50:25

Bruffin which disease are you referring to? I would not choose for my daughter to get encephalitis through either disease or vaccine. Vaccines are not 100% effective yet I as a patent choose to put these antigens into my daughters system . If she caught a disease her body would produce its own antibodies to fight the disease - these antibodies are a far higher level of immunity than is provided by a synthetic version. As I said previously I am not looking at the pro/ anti vaccine debate but at where I can possibly get a spread out vaccination schedule. St thomases is also a highly reputable hospital with some very proficient staff. I was told by a consultant there when my pregnancy was overdue by their scans by 4 days( not overdue in the least by my cycle) that and I quote 'we don't want another dead baby on our hands' and ' I used to recommend a balti a bonk and a bottle of red' .

bruffin Thu 13-Dec-12 14:07:28

hmm

ZuleikaD Thu 13-Dec-12 14:28:05

Their scans would be a lot more accurate than your cycle. Though I wouldn't have phrased it quite like that, myself.

redkaybee Thu 13-Dec-12 16:02:10

I was consciously trying to get pregnant so I knew exactly the date I conceived. The scans dictated I conceived prior to my period - their scans go by size of the foetus, and are inaccurate. They are used because the majority of women do not know their conception date.

Welovecouscous Thu 13-Dec-12 16:19:26

I know, red - I was also told my baby was conceived early than we had swi grin

ArthurPewty Thu 13-Dec-12 16:46:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ZuleikaD Thu 13-Dec-12 16:58:13

You can know when you had sex, but unless it was IVF you can't know the exact date of conception - sperm lives in the vagina or fallopian tubes for up to four days and conception can occur at any point in those days.

bruffin Thu 13-Dec-12 17:28:20

Its not libellous, everything i have said us documented by the Asa ruling.

ZuleikaD Thu 13-Dec-12 17:36:54

The ASA ruled that the website "breached CAP Code rules on misleading advertising, substantiation, exaggeration, harm and offence, and medicines, medical devices, health-related products and beauty products." In essence Dr Halvorsen has been called a liar by far more authoritative people than bruffin.

Welovecouscous Thu 13-Dec-12 18:34:49

Yes Zulieka, but it can't occur before there is any sperm in there at all! I did find it hilarious that my scan put me pg 5 days before any swi.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 00:24:25

yes couscous - it must happen a lot without women knowing and they are too quick to induce - all those undercooked babies being born before their time. As for the ASA - I would not class them as authoritative - they are a body that has to deal with public complaint. If someone were to lodge a complaint concerning dr halvorsens website - I wonder who would want to do a thing like that - then the ASA will explore the complaint and act accordingly. Because the record runs that there is no scientific evidence that mmr causes autism then any wording to that effect upon the website will be deemed inappropriate and removed. I am sure once upon a time the world was flat and smoking was good for you........

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 00:59:53

There is no evidence, there has been paper after paper looking for the connection and they can't find it. The papers used by Halvorsen to back his claims to the ASAP certainly didn't say what he claimed they did, just an example of the cherry picking he uses to scaremonger. Your obviously not interested in the real research, you just want a yes man who give you want you want regardless. Your gp is not going to refuse to vaccinate because you are late with the next appointment.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 03:58:08

Bruffin each to their own opinion. Again - a debate is not what I was looking for. I have done extensive research. The link to autism is in the vaccination causing a leaky gut. A leaky gut at infant age can cause a whole host of problems. An infant not ingesting the correct nutrients over a prolonged period is going to fall short developmentally. The outcome is a set of problems that when examined fall under the spectrum of autism. Wakefields research methodology was seen as unethical. The wording mmr causes autism was rejected. It is my understanding that vaccines are not 100% either safe or effective. I do not vaccinate myself. I would never choose to have a flu jab - I know someone who recently had the flu jab and has been ill for a month post jab. With the flu. My daughter is 4 months old - vaccines are an assault on an immature nervous system/ digestive system/ neurological system/ immune system . Why would I choose to put so many in at once? At such early stages? Certainly not because I am still going to baby weighing clinic and am therefore more likely to get the jabs which the gp is in turn paid for providing. Why do America and Australia have different schedules? Why were thimerosal jabs removed? Why has the 5 in 1 only been around for 8 years introduced in 2004 - is that long enough to know that it is safe? Why are the FDA now claiming there are still traces of thimerosal in vaccinations? Why is the house of commons currently discussing the provision of single vaccines. You are right. I am looking for a yes man - someone to say yes vaccination is your choice and if you choose to have it done you do not have to follow such an aggressive schedule as is provided by the nhs where babies are not treated as individuals, genetic history is not considered, neither is weight or the fact a baby is prem.Where a 6 lb baby can receive the same amount of antigens as a 16lb baby .

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 08:09:01

You may have "extensive research" but its not "good" research and you are perpetuating every dodgy myth surrounding vaccines going.

As I said previously use pubmed, google scholar, the IOM. All the answers are there but no wonder your doctor wont listen to you if you say you have done your research then start going on about thermisal and nonsense about leaky guts.

radicalsubstitution Fri 14-Dec-12 08:27:10

redkaybee your extensive research is thoroughly flawed.

For all those exercising their 'personal choice' not to vaccinate, please remember that you are mostly protected from the potential harm caused by childhood infectious diseases simply because most people follow the recommended vaccination schedule.

There are children with serious health issues who cannot be vaccinated on schedule. They deserve to be protected by the herd immunity offered by children who have no genuine reason not to be vaccinated.

Some people, however, have no interest in sound scientific evidence regarding vaccines if it does not fit in with their preconceived ideas.

If I released a bogus, crap 'scientific' study saying that extended breastfeeding psychologically damaged children then they would usually be the first to jump up and down and claim it was rubbish. Why, then, put so much faith in Wakefield's utter rubbish.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 08:31:08

Bruffin it's not nonsense . I came here hoping for intelligent advice on spreading vaccines. Yet I am faced with comments like your last which i would classify as ignorant. I would also go as far as to say the FDA and the house of commons may know a little about thimerosal and it's dangers. Yet this was in vaccines up until 12 years ago and deemed as safe. It was subsequently removed and deemed as dangerous. That's science for you!!

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 08:35:53

And radical substitution thanks for your kind informative non emotional or aggressive words.

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 08:39:00

I am really not the one who is being ignorant here. Yes it is complete nonsense. Thermisal was removed because of scaremongering not because it was deemed unsafe, and it made not the slightest difference to the rates of autism and FWIW thermisal was never in MMR. As I said read proper research not the first thing that google throws up.

You were given safe advice about the spread of vaccines from your gp but you chose to ignore it.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 08:45:06

As stated in my initial post the topic of vaccination is controversial. I was looking for help about SPACING vaccines. I don't see anywhere in any of these posts where I am asking to NOT VACCINATE but if I did it would be MY CHOICE. Herd immunity is a CONCEPT. Leaky gut is real. Thimerosal is also real. Autism is on the increase. The topic of vaccinations is a controversial one. Wakefield provided an examination . There are mothers and fathers who deal with autism on a daily basis for life who claim the change happened after a vaccination. Please stop with the 'one size fits all' mentality and science is 2000% correct. I don't buy it and neither do thousands of other parents. I am looking to protect my child according to her genetic predisposition . And also to do this using nhs vaccines. But spaces out. Any advice on this topic would Be useful.

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 08:47:46

There is more thermisol in your breastmilk than there ever was in vaccines.

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 08:55:04

Really odd we can't criticise a public figure on his published works - threads have been deleted about Halvorsen the GP (note not an immunologist).

Vaccines in the olden days had many more antigens in them so even though the 5:1 sounds like an 'assault', it isn't really.

We would all love that our DC were never ill - through vaccines or disease - but we don't have the luxury of choice.

MMR is not linked to autism. To date, given the extensive research out there, this is considered pretty much as fact.

For a thorough account of the Wakefield story I would recommend the wiki entry very highly.

ZuleikaD Fri 14-Dec-12 09:14:29

redkaybee your friend could not possibly have caught flu from her flu vaccine, so let's check our facts, shall we? Flu vaccine is a 'dead' vaccine - it has no live virus in it therefore it is impossible for it to give you flu. It takes 10 days to give you immunity, however, so the straightforward fact is that she caught it from somewhere else.

Also, you're wrong about babies who were premature being given the jabs at the same time as others who were full term. Certainly around here their jabs are given corrected for their adjusted birthdate.

I have no beef with someone wanting to work with their own schedule for their children's vaccinations (as long as they are given eventually) but that decision should be backed up by properly researched facts, not by some random googling.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 09:39:45

Bruffin ethyl and methyl are different and absorbed in different ways and build up/ clear the system differently. Zuleikad - why do you believe I have done some 'random googling' as you put it and not read any literature? Also - why the barrage when looking for advice on spacing vaccines? Do you work for pharmaceutical companies....?

ArthurPewty Fri 14-Dec-12 09:40:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 09:44:54

Oh not at all an unbiased account of Wakefield and his research then Leonie hmm. Do people really still trust doctors that have been struck-off then?

ArthurPewty Fri 14-Dec-12 09:48:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 10:05:17

Never read the memories...does he go into much detail about the MMR research?

Spacing out vaccines with no good reason is surely not in the best interests of the child? I think most doctors would see allowing a child to go unvaccinated over a longer period than neccessary is bone fide not acting in the best interests of that child.

But there. I've had this argument many times. If people really want to trust what they find on the internet, the opinion of one GP and place faith in unproven theories over the current advice based on good science, good intentions and backed by nearly all doctors, specialists and others, then best of luck to them. I hope they won't need it.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 10:15:38

LeBFG - what in your opinion is classified as 'good reason' - did you read the previous posts which indicate part of my reasoning?

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 10:32:04

redkay, you've been advised to vaccinate according to the regular schedule. So I'm assuming there is no good reason to spread. I've never been told of a convincing reason to spread actually though some must exist. I've asked on MN many times - I'm genuinely interested to know. I'm not against spreading out per se, just never seen good reasons to do so and so the cost of not vaccinating is simply much greater.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 10:41:24

LeBFG I was advised to vaccinate according to schedule. My daughters genetic history wasn't even looked at or taken into account. I don't buy the one size fits all in any area of medicine. There are no guarantees with vaccinations and my gps main concern is herd immunity. I would prefer a proper dialogue to discuss pros and cons that is unbiased but I can't find that anywhere.

JassyRadlett Fri 14-Dec-12 10:54:34

Redkaybee, why didn't your GP take genetic history into account - I assume you asked for it to be considered?

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 11:08:29

I'm not sure what you mean by genetic 'history' redkey.

It is a bit annoying to hear how many HCPs go on about herd immunity with the idea they are guilt-tripping people into vaccinating. The facts are the facts. Immunisation is done (for almost all vaccines) for the benefit of the vacinee. I agree that, given the concerns of a very small but resistant number of families, there should be more support and information available.

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 11:27:39

"Bruffin ethyl and methyl are different and absorbed in different ways and build up/ clear the system differently"

I do know the difference, it is ethylmercury that is found in vaccines. It is the one that does not build up in the system the same way methyl mercury does.

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 11:31:12

I would prefer a proper dialogue to discuss pros and cons that is unbiased but I can't find that anywhere. Actually redkey, there are some pretty interesting discussions on the Vaccination board - there are always plenty of posters arguing pros and cons - enough to give you a fair overview of each issue/vaccine to help you make up your own mind.

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 12:01:03

well then bruffin you will also know that the toxicity for ethyl mercury has not been properly researched. methyl mercury findings have been applied to ethyl mercury - even though the two compounds are obviously different. so what is found in vaccines= not properly investigated.

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 12:33:19

From the CDC

"Data from many studies show no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines."

from the FDA website

"Data reviewed did not demonstrate convincing evidence of toxicity from doses of thimerosal used in vaccines. In case reports of accidental high-dose exposures in humans to thimerosal or ethyl mercury toxicity was demonstrated only at exposures that were 100 or 1000 times that found in vaccines."

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 12:40:23

Data from EVERY studY show no evidence of harm caused by the doses of thimerosal in vaccines."

"ALL EXISTING data did not demonstrate ANY evidence of toxicity from doses of thimerosal used in vaccines. In EVERY case report of accidental high-dose exposures in humans to thimerosal or ethyl mercury toxicity was demonstrated only at exposures that were 100 or 1000 times that found in vaccines."

these would be statements I would be interested in

sh77 Fri 14-Dec-12 12:40:59

There are previous threads on the vaccination board re spacing. Catherinajtv (or similar name) is helpful on this topic.

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 13:51:56

What has 'genetic history' got to do with spreading vaccines?

The only example I've been given is if DC1 has a severe reaction to a combined vaccine then you may want to space out vaccines for DC2+ to see, possibly, which one it was (if the reaction causes the same effect in subsequent children and if you're prepared to take that risk which I'm not sure I would tbh).

redkaybee Fri 14-Dec-12 14:42:52

a history of serious autoimmune diseases on both parents sides. The concern is that her immune system is very immature hence wanting to space vaccines and vaccinate on a slightly later schedule.

LeBFG Fri 14-Dec-12 14:46:40

Do you have any real evidence her immune system is immature or is this speculation?

bruffin Fri 14-Dec-12 14:53:28
ArthurPewty Fri 14-Dec-12 20:43:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

redkaybee Sat 15-Dec-12 02:21:59

LeBFG - her age is an indication, the reflux she developed after her 5 in 1 indicates to me that her gut cannot take it. It's incredibly hard to watch a content happy baby turn into a baby screaming with pain on a daily basis - when one can do nothing to help.
Leoni do you believe the autism symptoms would have been the same with vaccinations ? My daughters father has terrible ADHD - his life is severely compromised. She has a one in three chance of developing it. Trials indicate vaccinations are linked to ADHD. I would like to do anything in my capability to prevent the ADHD occurring/becoming pronounced. How has the health of your children been besides the autism?

ArthurPewty Sat 15-Dec-12 07:12:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArthurPewty Sat 15-Dec-12 07:14:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 07:21:49

Well, age isn't an indication (Bruffin's link is really informative). Reflux? I don't think anyone would say this was an indication to not vaccinate tbh (vaccines are intramuscular). I'm even surprised you made the link - it would never have occured to me.

So much changes so quickly when they're little - I'm in the middle of terrible time at the moment - no sleep, moaning and whining, totally out of character, all started overnight and still going on weeks later....but DS is 21 mo and hasn't seen a vax for ages. I'm just trying to make the point that even when things seem correlated, it's not proof they are.

I think you know the research on autism. I've not seen/looked for any research on vaccines and ADHD - perhaps you could link? I know very little about ADHD so correct me if I'm wrong but I've always thought ADHD was exclusively a brain disorder/imbalance not an immune one.

In any case, if I was really worried vaccines would trigger autism/ADHD in my DS, I wouldn't vaccinate....or I would avoid only those vaccines supposedly linked...or I would vaccinate considering the risks from disease were greater. I wouldn't choose to spread vaccines. Worst of both worlds surely.

redkaybee Sat 15-Dec-12 10:16:48

http://69.164.208.4/files/Nutritional%20and%20Environmental%20Approaches%20to%20Preventing%20and%20Treating%20Autism%20and%20Attention%20Deficit%20Hyperactivity%20Disorder_0.pdf

This link should give you the information you are lacking on autism and ADHD, the facts are that a child with these difficulties has problems detoxifying heavy metals. nutrition plays a great part in welfare and health. And I could not agree less with your thinking that something is exclusively neurological when a holistic approach can alleviate so many symptoms. Alopecia and vitiligo are the autoimmune diseases - and heavily medicated asthma is another problem. As i stated in my original post I was never looking for a debate but help trying to space vaccines - space to allow time for metals to leave the system , space to allow my child to recover from the immune trickery which can always have a negative response ( this is why i can't find a doctor who will give any guarantees - and before you jump in I know there is no guarantee my child will not catch a disease but it is I who is choosing to inject her with antigens - she is not catching a vaccine)
So no, I disagree , spacing vaccines is not the worst of both worlds. It should be an option available to thos who have considered the vaccine/ non vaccine debate who want to protect their child but in a less aggressive mode.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 10:46:00

redkaybee Are there any multi's you want to spread out as singles, or is it just that you want to have the remaining vaccinations at dates later than scheduled? If it's the latter then I can't see that the practice can stop you. It is personal choice and whatever the opinions of anyone else - whether pro or anti - you can choose when or even if you want your children to be vaccinated. And if you do choose to delay, the practice/GP will still get it included in their financial incentive, just not at the time initially scheduled.

I know you are not looking for advice on whether to vaccinate or not, but you have received lots of comments regardless - I guess it's such an emotive subject for every single one of us that people can't help but share their thoughts and info. I have my own thoughts from info I have read and am certainly glad to read additional data and comments as without new info I can't learn more. I am a bit horrified to read for instance that the manufacturer's whooping cough vaccine information leaflet says it is not to be used on pregnant women, yet the NHS is recommending it and this is their logic : www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/whooping-cough-vaccination-pregnant.aspx#patient

It does seem there is a mixed message here. On one hand we get told 'there's no evidence for that, it cannot be recommended' (chiropractic for certain conditions for example) but on the other hand we get told 'there is no evidence for that but we have decided it is safe' (the latter being true for many drugs as well as vaccines, when they are prescribed to an age group or population group that the drug or vaccine has not been trialled on).

Sorry, off at a tangent!

The best advice I ever received was from a GP who told me she was not anti-vaccination but pro-information and pro-safety and she told me to read all the NHS information and to also ensure I read non-government sources aswell, as, by her own admission, the NHS information would not convey the complete picture.

Which also leads me to ask, what vaccination studies have ever been carried out by anyone who did not have a vested financial interest? I can't find many/any (?) other than the Wakefield investigation, and when I've delved deeper into that one the findings don't seem to actually find fault with his information but the complaint seems to have initially derived from the root of his funding. He also didn't seem to be claiming the direct 'cause' that the press reported him as claiming, but more of an association that ought to be investigated further.

Back to one of the earlier comments, on the subject of gut problems, this thread might be of interest: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs_recommendations/1636936-Behavioural-learning-probs-inc-ADHD-gut-dysbiosis-gut-fermentation

The problem can be accessing the alternatives as the only options on the NHS are all at once. I had a GP willing to provide a single tetanus but he couldn't get it so ds2 and ds3 have had nothing, as the NHS ones are not an option for them.

I did find a clinic cheaper than baby jabs and located throughout the uk (they go to different places on different days). Maybe google. I have no idea whether they're reliable though - you do know what you're getting with Halvorsen's clinic (we just can't manage trips to London really).

Oh yes as previous poster said if you want to give standard jabs just with longer gaps that's no problem. They used to be given later and more spread out anyway -you just have to be a little careful about gaps between tetanus jabs, but ask your GP (hopefully they can find out if they don't know).

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 10:58:26

redkaybee re. heavily medicated asthma - have you seen this RCT. Very interesting www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23211647

redkaybee Sat 15-Dec-12 12:01:06

Thank you saintly and sipper. I will have a look for the alternative clinic. And sipper those links are incredibly interesting . Your experience with your LO is astonishing - so good that you managed to find a way to combat this and prevent a life of difficulties. You are an impressive parent!! Thanks for the insights.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 12:33:33

Thank you redkaybee very kind of you but I can't take the credit. (As much as I'd love to!). Am very fortunate that my DH, who works in healthcare, is v knowledgeable in these matters. Thank goodness or we'd probably be having to manage a label for life.

If anyone wants to know anything about testing for this prob please do say as am very happy to share the info. The more this is known about the more children might benefit.

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 12:34:51

Good to see you are getting what you want OP. I shalln't get involved in the nitty gritty as you clearly aren't interested in the debate. Just read through the review from the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine that you link to. Under ADHD and toxic chemicals there is no mention of vaccines [shrug] though indeed autism and ADHD are dealt with. If I was worried about toxic metals in these vaccines I would prefer one jab to five separate ones. But there....not what you want to hear. Hope you are happy with your choices.

Welovecouscous Sat 15-Dec-12 13:04:35

Bruffin that Uni publication is very interesting. I learned a lot from reading it.

Fascinating to read that mmr is more effective after 15 months. Why does the uk give it at 12 months then? I know this is not true of all pcts, but that is what they do where we live.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 14:20:25

Hi Bruffin please can you give more info on this comment from one of your earlier posts? "There is more thermisol in your breastmilk than there ever was in vaccines." Would be really interested to read more; thanks for any info.

Maybe I've misread redkaybee's post but I didn't think it read as saying that the review (from the Journal of Alt and Comp Medicine) stated that vaccines and their toxicity caused autism and ADHD, but more that they the metals is a concern as there does appear to be a link and therefore is keen to consider the pros and cons of putting into the body anything with heavy metals in (such as some vaccinations).

The University of Auckland document is interesting (thank you Bruffin) but is does contain a number of points I find worrying and quite irresponsible/untrue. For one, the document claims absolute safety for immunising infants as young as six weeks. It then adds these infants are at no more adverse risk than older children (so that's not an absolute safety then....) and says the problems are of lower responses to vaccines and therefore reduced protection.

The US vaccination damage programme has paid out billions since its inception. I don't think these payouts are simply for reduced protection. However, sadly it is protected by a separate law that prevents recipients from disclosing details. Interestingly it is also funded by money from the pharmaceutical companies who, instead of being sued directly, have any damage claimants go through this separate system and neatly away from them as manufacturers. Has anyone seen the recent film 'Doctored'? It's makes for interesting viewing.

The Uni doc also mentions that most vaccines are injected directly into muscle tissue. So this would mean it then goes into the lymphatic system and eventually into the bloodstream. Not an idea every parent would relish for their LO so I can quite understand people wanting to know more or not being keen.

It also says 'briefly the following occurs: vaccine antigen disassociates from adjuvant (e.g. aluminium hydroxide). So where does this go? What happens to the aluminium hydroxide? Unless there is absolute proof that this adjuvant is wholly ejected by the body then this is a worrying little fact and with aluminium being implicated in Alzheimers and found in children with autism, it's another area it would be nice to have more research on.

On the subject of the research, the University of Auckland's research institute says this : We have increased our research revenue and capability by developing innovative and strategic partnerships particularly in the food and pharmaceutical industries.

Apologies for typos.... must get back to being Christmassy - decs to put up, tree to admire!

They used to give MMR at 15 months welove (and prior to that 18 months where it works slightly better still).

I think it was moved because Hib was found to need a booster. So it is now given at the same visit as Hib/men C. Presumably this is cheaper that 2 visits, although yes it is a little bit less effective.

bruffin Sat 15-Dec-12 15:20:14

My ds's blue book from 1995 advises between 12 and 18 months, my DD who was born in 97 red book just says one year, but the booster in those days were advised for pre school ie 4/5.

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 16:44:24

Lots for Bruffin to answer sipper - wrt the vaccine/ADHD link I think it's important to rationalise this a bit. The review cites mainly reports about lead and ADHD (one study did look at mercury). The role of aluminium and vaccines have been extensively discussed on MN here. The muscle tissue retains some of the aluminium and with time (6 months from memory) the aluminium is eliminated by the body. I'm inferring a similar thing happens with other heavy metal adjuvants. The doses we are talking about are extremely small (hence I assume they don't need to do smaller doses for premmies/low birth weight babies). We ingest orally far, far more.

Of course the ability of the body to excrete metals etc is dependent on properly functioning metabolic pathways

My friend's autistic dd's lead levels were so high they had to move out of their house immediately (the exposure) and she was chelated on the NHS. Her younger NT brother's levels were high as well, but nowhere near as high as hers and he did not need chelation. May indicate an individual difference in ability to excrete metals I guess which might be relevant elsewhere. Who knows.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 17:07:54

Thanks LeBFG. As aluminium is not a great thing to have in the body, even in small amounts, I reduce exposure wherever possible e.g. choose products that don't contain it, don't cook with aluminium pans. Once you (and by that I mean 'one', but that sounds too pretentious for what I'm trying to say!) start looking at avoiding it, it's staggering to discover just how many products do contain it. Thankfully a lot can be avoided.

LeBFG Sat 15-Dec-12 17:35:20

THe thing with aluminium pans is no longer a problem in fact (DH was worried about this one). In any case, the dose maketh the poison (doesn't homeopathy work by diluting the poison to infinitesimal quantities?)...The thing with metabolic pathways is not all heavy metals will be eliminated with the same pathway (I imagine). A lead and ADHD link may exist. But lead isn't in vaccines. And this tells us nothing about aluminium and ADHD.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 17:45:51

Did I miss something....are we talking about homeopathy now?!! Thanks for the info LeBFG. My POV is that info is key and health & safety, (and not in a hard hat clipboard sort of way...but in a staying healthy and knowing about the safety or lack of safety of things), are vital. Keep an eye on what we are putting into our bodies and weigh up the risks. I hope redkaybee has found the answer to the original question. Such an emotive topic - understandable we've all gone off in various directions!

Unfortunately I can only get the abstract of this atm but it looks like the sort of thing that might be interesting to read. Looks as if it generates quite a few further questions though.

sipper Sat 15-Dec-12 18:19:04

saintlyjimjams that is interesting. Thank you. Will read again tomorrow in more detail as am currently getting ready to go out so I must go and put on my aluminium-free deodorant, chemical free make up....

I have also read somewhere (will have to try and find again) about aluminium and autism - but Al doesn't seem to have been detected in the findings of this particular study. Nonetheless, aluminium has been found in the brains of Alzheimers sufferers so Al still sounds pretty awful to me and I'll still avoid the pans! sad

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