unfortunately i work in the evenings so i only have the getting ready time in the morning and then the rush after school before I leave for work at 5pm. When I get back they are all in bed.

I can see that she probably wants maximum attention in the time that I am here before I go to work.

I understand that she is not that great for her dad either.

We try and give them all equal attention at the weekend but it is hard fitting it in the two days.

Reading your posts, I'm really seeing a lot of attention seeking middle child type behaviour. But I think you know that from what you've said.

Every time they get time out they get your attention at least at the beginning and end of the time out.

How about a golden time type system as a reward alongside the time outs for really 'bad' stuff?

The incentive being your attention - you would need to be able to provide some sort of daily time just for you and them, without the others though, which might not be possible?

Fruitful you've trashed my theory that this is a girl thing . I agree that lots of positive attention helps.

Having posted, she was wonderful pretty much all evening and fell asleep sucking her thumb and smiling at me. When she's nice she's the sweetest little thing.

Cathymonkey I hope the rest of your day improved.

I've got one of these too. Another 4yo middle child I don't if that is significant but I do think "the big one" and "the baby" have it easier sometimes. Dd gets time and attention after the others are in bed, and ds2 gets me to himself during the day. Ds1 always has the others around too.

I find that shutting myself in the bathroom and muttering "and this, too, shall pass" works wonders.

And praising every tiny little thing that he does well, and seizing every chance when he does want a cuddle. Telling him how much I love him every time I get him out of time-out. Letting him overhear me telling dh or someone else all the good things he has done and how wonderful I think he is.

Being 4 is hard. Starting school is hard. When his teacher describes him I don't recognise him - he is obviously behaving so well at school that there is nothing left for home!

Oh Catchymonkey that's just the sort of thing DD1 does. It's so disheartening isn't it?

When DD1 does things like that, I can give her time out but that means standing right over her until it's over - otherwise she won't stay there. So it disintegrates into a row about time out.

If I ask her if she had a tough day she would just scream at me. If I tell her that she needs to go somewhere else until she has cheered up, she will refuse to go so I then have to ignore the others whilst I stand outside her bedroom door, preventing her from coming out.

If I walk away from her she will follow me around the house.

When she is in this sort of mood she doesn't want cuddles.Sometimes I ask her if she is enjoying shouting and if it is making her feel happy (I don't ask in a sarky way) and she generally shakes her head. I think she gets all tied up in a knot of crossness and doesn't know how to get out of it.

I've been thinking about it this evening and she's actually been in a great mood, but when we've had the odd moment where things could have gone belly-up, I've found that responding v quickly and giving her lots of attention seems to work best.

I hope you get some more responses as I could really do with it as well

Okay. You ask her to apologise to DS1, and I think physical aggression gets time out, try not to be cross just explain that hurting someone else always gets time out. In my house this is the front door, in between internal(glass window door) and external door. I would then ask her if she had a tough day?
If she's rude and unpleasant I would suggest that she finds somewhere, ie her room, to be grumpy and when she feels better she can come and join the rest of you.

We play five questions on our way home, where I ask each of the boys (6 & 7) what they did at school. This sometimes helps the telling me 'anything of interest' challenge.

So today for example. we have got in the car, there was an argument over the baby holding her book bag.

we get to the front door. she kicks ds 1 and makes him cry then barges him out of the way to use the loo.

so what do i do with this one?

I would use distraction and go back to good behaviour rewards. When my 2 yo throws one I walk away and let him get over it. If I am in a public place I take him away from area/take his mind somewhere else.

My DD aged 5 can be like this,

I just see it as a way of saying, 'I'm tired, I'm confused, I want you to cuddle me'

Maybe school is overwhelming or she is scared about something.

Ignore the angry comments, however hard it is, just keep being upbeat and positive. Remember she is only 4 and is just sad/ confused/ tired on the inside and is expressing it in a bad way.

Catchymonkey - I could have written your post, and it's so comforting to know that I'm not alone! My DD1 has just started in reception and she has 2 big brothers and a younger sister. She will be fine all day in school but as soon as she sees me she sticks out her tongue, then calls me an idiot and starts shouting that she wants a treat (obviously she doesn't get one). I find it very embarassing and upsetting. My other children would never ever behave like that. We had weeks at the beginning of term when she would start shouting and hitting the others from the moment she woke up, continue right through breakfast and all the way to school, then carry on as soon as I collected her at 3.15 and not stop until she fell asleep.

What is she like with her father and with other adults? DD1 is horrible to DH. When we went trick or treating she kept saying "why is Daddy following us?" and sometimes in the morning she'll ask "why is he in your bed?". It's very upsetting for DH but also puts a bigger burden on me.

Posieparker I think your advice is very good. DD1 is much better when I respond in a gentle way and give her lots of attention, rather than my instinctive reaction which owes more to Mrs Thatcher dealing with the IRA than to Mother Teresa . On the way home from school yesterday, in between shouting and kicking, she would yell "I'm being good, I'm trying to be good". She got more upset when I said "but you are shouting and hitting me". When I tried saying "yes you are such a good and lovely girl" after a while she started laughing and was fine.