Just ordered it, has it got anything on hitting? Him of us, not vice versa!

Me too...!

Over the past month I've started shouting at DD as talking in a normal voice gets me nowhere.

DD doesn't seem to mind too much, but its stressing me out and making me feel like an awful mum so I would love to find another way. Also, don't want DD to think this is now you should talk to people.

Have ordered 'how to talk'. Thanks for the recommendation.

Mog: I suppose they only put it the positive examples! It isn't going to work all the time or every day and I think some days you just have to keep your head down and get through, HTTing or not. I find whingeing the worst and find I don't want to acknowledge it in case it continues!

We've all been a bit ill so back a few steps. Must look again at the role bit as I think that would be v helpful atm.

Hmmm, we had a crapola day today .

DS1 v grumpy and challenging all day, stropping over silly little things, hitting DH when we had to go home from the playground, even though we'd done 5/3/2/1 minute warnings etc. And oh my god, the whingeing today. And he was quite rough with DS2, and he'd been getting so much better! feel quite despondent at the set-back - got a bit shouty with him, then tried to make amends and talk to him. Nothing changed, so I ended up shutting down and becoming minimally responsive - not v helpful, but I was just so hacked off. Now he's in bed I feel like crap, though. And really annoyed with myself.

His behaviour is just so frustrating. I try to say positive things to him (in the correct descriptive way!) - he stopped at a road, said "No cars!" and went across - I said "Well done for checking for cars, DS1 - that's very responsible" and he said "I only said it". I feel like when I praise him, he just pushes it away - if I say he's behaved nicely, he'll mention one less nice thing he's done. Honest to a fault (which may well turn out to be a good thing) but makes me feel undermined and defeated. Blah.

I think one flaw of the book for me is that the kids in the examples seem to change so quickly into the reasonable behaviour! Also, the examples don't seem to be really pertinent to the sort of behaviour I am dealing with. But I suspect the main problem is that I was up half the night with teething DS2 (1.5) - blardy molars oh-so-slowly emerging. Sigh.

Oh well, I suppose tomorrow is another day...

My book hasn't arrived yet

Bloody ebay

I really need to read it!!

Hi again. I found my book but haven't read any yet...but just reading this thread has had an effect. I have been much more successful with removing ds1 from park/shop/house etc with improvising games and imaginary things. Not sure if they're ttotally true to the bok but it has been really helpful.

Will carry on checking in here.

Please can I join too? I got my copy from Mini IQ last week and need to do the worksheets from Chapters 1 - 3. I'll watch this with interest.

hmm yes I could definately try that - I will have to get the book out again [wonders if it has come back from a friend]

kate: would the section on roles be a help? there's an eg there of a persistent liar - the aim being not to raise the issue of him lying again, focusing instead on how to solve the problem at hand. I can look it up later if that would be a help

Even though I know what I should be saying I still find it hard when I'm tired though and then feel like a complete failure.

What are the other thing apart from fantasy and one word instructions which we do a lot - oh and and acting/drawing out - acknowledgement of feelings doesnt really work here which is annoying...

What I really need is a section how to deal with constant fibbing about small things grr - why do 5 year olds love to do this? I hear 'it wasnt me' about 100 times a day.

Mantras working for us, too - ours are "Be kind and gentle" and "Speak nicely" as DS1 was getting v shouty (no doubt because we had been, too...) Things have definitely improved since we started making a big effort with this. Just hoping it will become more second-nature soon - I still have to constantly remind myself of how to behave!

Thanks so much for this thread. It reminded me that I can do things differently. So, we were walking home the other day, hurrying to get back for tea and DS (4) wanted to go down another path in the wood, and I said no, we've got to get back. And because I'm cross and tired at the moment, and he was tired, it nearly turned into a meltdown. But for one second's effort, which is me saying 'we haven't got time to go down there, but what do you think we'd find if we did?' shall we talk about it on the way home? it was all diverted, and we had a very happy time drivelling on about all the things that were in that bit of the wood. What I love about the granting their wishes thing is that, because they are so creative, it doesn't take much effort but we always end up having a really interesting conversation. Thanks again.

Now that really would tip her over the edge.

Ah, but do you sing it?

<warbles in a mockney accent>
All I want is a room somewhere...
...Wouldn't it be lurverly?

DP has already said she's going to go mad if she hears 'wouldn't it be lovely' once more! But it works, no tantrums/tears.

Wow leningrad, that's great! I find the fantasy bit a bit weird TBH but I guess it is another distraction technique.

DD is only just two so I'm not sure the techniques work on her at the moment, but I am trying the 'giving information' thing, as she is inclined to cope what we say and I am trying to create mantra's for her e.g. water stays in the bath, no throwing food on the floor.

It's very hard to stay calm when it is 6.30am and she is hitting you with a book she wants to read and you have tonisilitis so reading hurts - plus it's 6.30 in the morning!

BBF, ignore, ignore, ignore and/or distract or suggest something else to occupy her hands so she forgets.

DS loves the hand gel stuff too so he can squirt that now and then.

my dd is 2.2 but is bright enough to understand how to wind up mummy. How do you handle the total ignoring and continuing to do said thing? For example, I have swine flu at the mo and dd has not grown out of putting everything in her mouth. I have tried no dd, dirty, yucky, no, not in our mouths, out please etc etc. But now it is just seen as a challenge. Any ideas? I know she picks up more bugs as she licks everything/chews stuff her and at nursery. I just end up removing the object and shouting and she just goes and stuffs something else in?

Sitting and eating is a nightmare (no interest in food). Bath is hideous, hair washing is the total screaming end of the world and everything requires tears apparently.

I shout too much. Must try to find the book.

I did the extending the request into a fantasy the other day and it really worked. DS, 3, wants a new playmobile set. I want to wait to get him something 'from' the baby in a couple of weeks.

He went on and on about this set for a few days. Eventually I said wouldn't it be great if we could have all the playmobile sets in the world. He looked at me either like it was a possibility or I was mad and I thought I'd blown it, then he giggled and we had a long and lovely discussion about how many boxes we'd need to put all the playmobile in, how big they'd need to be and where we could store them.

I kid you not, as I'm typing this, his other obsession is hoovers and he wants a Victor green one to go with his Henry red one so he's just said, with the loveliest grin, 'wouldn't it be lovely if we had a hoover for the curtains, and a hoover for the sofa and a hoover for the tele and my toys etc, etc'. Queue me laughing and end of conversation, without him pleading or me saying 'no' or 'maybe' or 'perhaps, one day'.

This stuff works!

<waves> - who were you before? DS2 is 6 mo so we have a similar age gap

I too worry about repeating past mistakes - I find I'm happy to go with the flow while they're babies but get rather concerned once we're at the character-shaping age.

Oops DS2 just woken up, better go!

I think I'm going to like this! Am nodding & laughing sagely as I read the thread.
effie - just read your pet hate about ds1 wanting "a bit" of everything you eat! Oh how I hate this ....I'm too greedy to share!

This sounds perfect for me. I haven't read the whole thread yet but I do have the book (largely untouched). I also have the exhaustion & guilt that comes with constantly sounding like my mother & constantly regretting it and promising to do better tomorrow!

I have 2 boys now - Ds1 is 2.9 & ds2 is 4 months. effie you were on my October 2006 thread way back when! I've changed names since then though.

Will read the thread now!

Have finally shelled out for my own copy, so I can take the other one baqck to the library . And I have written crib notes on post-its round the kitchen

Told dh about the lolly incident and he suggested i should've moved onto size and colour etc rather than quantity so will save that idea for next time.

Nearly had another tantrum outside the post office when i was picking up a parcel. Ds1 had seen some toy tractors, but i had to explain to him i had no money (i deliberately don't take any sometimes so i can't give in to him!). In the end i said "I wish i could magic you some out of thin air and clicked my fingers" Obviously my magic money fingers didn't worked so ds had to try his. His didn't work either so we laughed at our silly magic fingers and went home, tractors all forgoten about. :D

How's it going, HTTalkers???

I am working my through. I get some bits, and definately trying to be more understanding of feelings, but just ready chapter about finding alternatives and realising this will take some work! I think that some bits are maybe more appropriate to older children than my ds (2.6) but am going to consolidate the points from each chapter at the end and put them on a fidge to help me remember.

Dlamis - lol at your DS1! My DS1 is very good at taking the wind out of my sails like that - he can be quite crushing sometimes when I am trying to be Mary Poppins .

I was just logging on to search for 'shouting' and this thread was at the top of active convos - can I join you? We're really struggling at the moment. At the root of it is our concerns about money (DP unemployed, I'm working f/t from home) but it's all getting on top of us a bit, I'm not sleeping well and ended up snapping at DS1 yesterday (in my defence, he was pulling ds2 off a sofa backwards by a scarf round ds2's neck), unfortunately not for the first time. Have read How to Talk, but will dig out my copy again and turn over a new leaf.

Thanks for starting the thread. And good to know it's not just me...

can I join late?

Hmm, not sure I've quite got the hang of this grant their wish in fantasy type thing.
On the way home from toddler group going past shop.

Ds1 - "I want a lolly"
Me - "No it's nearly lunch time and you don't get anything asking like that"
Ds1 (starting to get annoyed) "I would like a lolly now, PLEASE"
Me (rising to the challenge "Ooo I bet you would like a hundred lollies and......."
Ds1 (cutting me short) "No! i only want ONE lolly" with expression and frown on his face as if to say "stupid woman, why do i need 100 lollies"

Fortunately lolly shop was unexpectedly closed so instead we laughed at the silly shop and got home without much trouble.

<realises it's not enough just to watch thread>

<buys book from ebay for 99p>

Yes, thanks Effie. Funnily enough, I started the 'no roaring rule' earlier today (gosh, it all seems so ridiculous when I see myself writing all this, and I wonder if i'm being slightly over the top!) and so far it's working...

I'm quite happy with the noise outside of the house. My issue is only when it's done blatantly in someone's face & that's also only when it causes upset.

We'll see how the new rule works! Thanks everyone.

Canella: you weren't being ignored! I often don't get the chance to post at the weekends.

DS1 is 2.9 and most of what you say is pretty familiar. We've had periods of deliberate weeing, what I did (last week) was to put him in pull-ups for a few days to give us both a break *not the recommended approach). I think Filly is right in that they aren't trying to be naughty at this age, they're exploring and pushing and pushing to seewhat will happen.

MrsM - Roaring: I can see that it might be a fun thing to do, can you try a rule of no roaring (or shouting/screaming) in the house but make some time every day to go to the park/out in the garden where they can make as much noise as they like? DS1 loves screeching and shouting and I have no prob with him doing so in the wide open spaces

TBH VietnameseCobbler, I'm not sure. I think it's just that he's found a way to wind me and his brother up.

It started when ds2 was learning to say animal noises and would roar when he saw a lion, for example, but ds1 would then always roar back, louder and fiercer.

Thinking back, when ds2 would roar on seeing a lion etc, myself or dh would praise him (he's been v slow speech-wise) and when ds1 returned roar, inevitably louder and much more aggressively, again and again, we would tell him to stop it. So it's always had a negative association for him and is probably just an attention seeking act.

Giantkatestacks - he does also roar, in a slightly different way, when he's angry or frustrated. Scenario for that often goes like this:

ds1: I don't want to wear my jumper.
Mum: It's cold outside, you can take it off when you get to pre-school.
ds1: Uuuuurrrrggggghhhhhhhhh (v loud!)

At this point, I do try the HTT 'I can see you're angry. Wouldn't it be nice if it was a lovely sunny day and none of us would have to wear jumpers.......' and that works fine and we move on.

It's just the blatant attention-seeking listnessness that leads to the unprompted roaring at his brother that I don't know how to deal with.

My 4 year old used to do that when he was angry Mrsmcdreamy - it stopped of its own accord though. I think the HTT approach would be asking him to draw how cross he was instead maybe? That works well in my house.

why does he roar mrs mc D?

how is it all going guys?
any sucesses? are you calmer?
It does work! keep going

Any HTT solutions for a roaring 4 year old?

It's been going on for a while now, on and off, but my 4 year old ds has this thing about roaring very loudly in the faces of either ds2 or the dog!! It makes ds2 (1.11) cry and the dog run off cowering.

It's particularly bad at the moment, mainly, I think, because I seem to be on ds1's case a lot at the moment about not bothering ds2 constantly.

I've tried to ask him nicely to stop doing it, I've shouted at him to stop doing it, i've sent him to his room if he doesn't stop doing it and yesterday, after several incidents of either being rough with ds2 or
roaring at ds2/dog, I ended up (after threatening I'd do this if it didn't stop) taking away his favourite toy of the moment and 'putting it in the bin' (I didn't really...it's just hidden away). Cue very very upset little boy and very guilty-feeling mummy.

How can I tackle this with a HTT approach?

Can I lurk, please? I have had 2 days this week where I have felt like crying from the draining experience of dealing with a 2.6yo ds.

I noticed yesterday that when I shout at him (when the whinging won't stop and my nerves are on edge), he just shouts "raaaarrrr" back at me with a red face. So, it seems, I've taught him to shout. Last night in tears to dh, I thought I was the only one that felt like this and was The Original Crap Mummy (and not the Yunmmy Super version Ialways wanted to be). Now I have a book to buy and read (which I love...) and the knowledge that other mummies get shouty too.

Will order books and report back! Thank you!

Add thread to threads im onand watching list.

Will be back later when i've read the whole thread. Hoping it makes me feel better in that ds1 is just a normal 3yr old and i'm not really the crappest mother from planet shoutalot

I may be more of a lurker than a poster - depends what kind of day i've had, or issues i've had to deal with, i suppose - but would love to join what looks like a really supportive and helpful thread.

I have 2 ds - 4.1 and 1.10 and am in 2nd trimester of 3rd pg.

I started off with all the patience in the world but have slowly regressed to being very shouty indeed and all that wonderful patience and calmness that friends used to comment on in envious awe has almost totally disappeared.

ds1 wasn't ever too bad, but on reaching 3, coupled with ds2 being much more challenging, i find it difficult cope without barking orders or making threats or shouting them down. Like most of you, this is something I never imagined my parenting skills would become, and I often end up in tears about it after a particularly tough day.

I bought the book last Easter and gave it a cursory glance, putting into practice (for a while) those bits that seemed promising - like the wishes/fantasies - and these did appear to work with ds1.

My problem is that I buy these books wanting instant results or the perfect solution to our individual 'problems' and when I see that it requires some effort and perseverence the books get relegated back to the bookcase. With this thread and the support it offers, I hope to follow HTT through and, at times, to be able to offer some experiences and advice.

<<goes off to find and dust off the book>>

I don't get online much anymore but really need to lurk on here to get some tips for how to deal with DS 2.6.

My throat hurts from shouting most days

lol though

I don't honestly think age of potty training is anything to boast of. I mean, I don't think there is a conclusive link between it and oxbridge entry or anything.

Will also say, those kids I know who have trained later have tended (I think) not to relapse, whereas I think relapsing is quite common among kids who trained nearer the 2.0 mark.

[tries to think of nominal things to boast of]

yeah but I don't have much else to boast of

you can imagine the scenes at p&t group. "Oh yes, Fenella was reading Shakespeare at 18 months. We find she prefers the tragedies, as they are more sophisticated.".

"Arcturius is showing such musical talent, we are wondering if 6 months is too young to audition for the National Opera."

And there's me, burbling on about my kids not actually being behind the curve on potty training (incidentally, they trained themselves, I am much too lazy to faff about with such things)

Nominally dry by 2?My ds was past 3 before he really got it - although then he got it really quickly...

canella, I bet like most of us you KNOW all this, you're just having a hard time atm.

So here is what I think:

1. Some kids ime have an uncanny knack of pushing their parents buttons.

2. He is quite young not to be wetting himself imo. Mine were both nominally dry by 2, but not reliably so til much closer to 3.5, and I remember that as both got more confident and used to using the toilet they also got more complacent (i think), so actually after a few months there were more accidents. But I also remember how IRRITATING it was, this sudden regression when I was Ms Smug Mummy with these fabulously early potty trained kids.

3. OK. Window. Tricky. I don't think kids really react much to our words at his age, tbh. They react to how we are, what they see. For him to open the window-is it actually dangerous?

I'd be very very honest with him. Within reason, I'd tell him your actual fear. I think kids react well to respect and honestly. If I thought that there was an actual decent chance he could fall, I'll tell him that. If I was worried that the neighbours would be shocked if they saw him at the window, I'd tell him that. If I thought there was a TINY chance of him falling, but even that tiny chance was too much for me, I'd tell him that. In simple, and respectful, and non-manipulative language, of course.

To take it apart a bit more. you said:

"its really not a good idea to open the window - you might fall out and bang oyur head an it would be really sore. Mummy was wrong to opent he window"

so: 1. You didn't actually tell him what you wanted him to do. You just gave him some information-you don't think its a great idea. He might be thinking, "hmm, mummy doesn't think its a good idea. Interesting. I think its a great idea...".

2. He saw you do it. You didn't fall out. You were quite safe. He will take far more from what he sees you do than what he hears you do.

What I'd have done here btw is to try to circumvent the whole situation by giving him a go with opening and shutting the window. Then letting him know that I didn't want him to open the window alone, for <insert reason>, but that I would supervise him if he wanted it in future.

Its hard though, I know from my own experience (also have 3 kids!) that they are SO different in how they recieve information. With some, you can talk til you are blue in the face and they will NOT seem to take it in.

I think kids are quite different in the amount

cant believe i killed this thread with my misery yesterday!! MN full of support eh? only if you're a regular eh!!

can i lurk on this thread - i've got 3 dc (dd nearly 8, ds1 4.9 and ds2 2.11).

I dont know where ds2 came from - the other 2 dc are so well behaved - not perfect obviously - they have they're flshpoints but on the whole really good!

But ds2 is a fecking nightmare - since 6.30 yesterday eve he has peed in his pants twice (once yest eve and once this morn), when i sent him upstairs to get some clean pants yesterday he instead went into the bathroom and squirted toothpaste all over the floor. I became canella mcshouty in shouty street and sent him to bed with no stories!

this morning i opened the window in the boys room just to see if it was still raining - they're on the first floor of the house - window opens inwards and the instant i opened it i knew he would copy me later! so i said to him "its really not a good idea to open the window - you might fall out and bang oyur head an it would be really sore. Mummy was wrong to opent he window"
so what did he do - he opened it! so i became canella mcshouty AGAIN and then he wet his pants! all over their desk where he'd been standing to open the window!

it seems nothing when i've written it down but he constantly doesnt listen to me and i just felt like i couldnt take anymore this morn - i sobbed for 10 mins after - i could cry now writing this. sometimes i feel like i want someone to take him away and thats terrible - if his mum feels like this no wonder he's naughty. but he just pushes every button till that red mist descends and i lose it.

so i'll lurk on this thread and read all your good advice - thank you for sharing your good ideas! will try them out over the weekend

I'm in too. DD is 18 months today <sob> but going on 7 with pre-teen hormones and stroppiness thrown in . I am as shouty as a massive shouty thing and if I carry on she'll be stone deaf or in care before she's two. Just ordered the book.

EffieP good luck! Tiredness is definitely the enemy of patience and calm... can you organise your day to minimise likely flashpoints?

DS2 has been waking up a lot this week so I'm knackered and have been totally crap with DS1 . It just seems so much easier to shout than be patient. I know that 99% of his undesirable behaviour is down to me but I just don't seem to have the necessary energy. I recognise my triggers are tiredness and also that I'm pone to anxiety and being pre-occupied. We're off on holiday tomorrow (another current cause of stress!) but when we get back I'm going to make a real effort to slow down and also perhaps find about about some cognitive behaviour therapy for me to knock this negativity on the head once and for all.

Sorry I'm not sure there's a UK translation Everhope

Wish me luck today: no sleep thanks to DS2 being ill and DS1 waking at 5:30. And DS1 i back in trainer pants after zillions of accidents. Not feeling much like empathising today...

Knickers! Just realised what HTT stands for! OK, so I know where to find that - there isn't one in English is there? I find Yank psychs harder to bear than English ones...

God this is making me feel better - at school, I feel like I'm the only one! My dd is 7 and has A level manipulation. On a good day, I can handle it much of the time, but I don't want to tell you about bad days . We also take it in turns to be insomniacs, but she's really hard to wake in the morning and we are so often either late or nearly late for school - I'm fed up of getting letters from school about late arrivals, I KNOW we were late. I haven't got a book that gets me past about age 3 and I'm interested, but you all seem to be talking about different books, esp "HTT" - ? I'm never gonna find it! DH just reckons I spoil her, but I don't think I do, just trying to find a different way to setting a gazillion rules. We always said we'd only have a few, but it seems to me there's loads and it's all out of control.

Effie he goes to bed after DD. We all watch half of Ben 10 while the kids have bananas then I take DD upstairs for her bath and DS watched last half with instructions that he comes upstairs for bath when the programme has finished. He then comes up. I get DD out of the bath and he stays in while I feed DD and put her down. He gets out and has his story.

Same onld thing last night - got out of bed four times until DP shouted at him. Then he was up three times during the night with various excuses. Upshot is I'm totally exhausted.

I had a very shouty afternoon after no sleep last night for me (Dh away, a door kept banging somewhere and the cats were spooked so I was too!!) and then no sleep at lunch for DTs (they fell asleep in car instead - not the plan!). So all very tired and fractious. We were all winding each other up and I know I am the adult and should stop but I when I'm in it.... it's so hard to.
The worst thing is my DS seems oblivious to my shouting, so I can't stop myself (unlike with DD who gets upset which is the check I need).
I feel so ashamed of my behaviour. This is not how I want to be.

Sunshine: when does he go to bed? I've started letting DS1 stay up for an extra half hour while I get DS2 off to sleep (temporarily) and it seems to have cut down on the endless 'Mummyyyyyyy' as soon as I leave the room. I worked out that he was getting a bit cross at being put into bed while I went off and fed DS2 to sleep (fair enough I thought as he's older)

gks I've tried that before and it hasn't worked either. I'm loathe to leave his door open as if DD cries it will wake him up.

sunshine - I think thats a case for the one word approach - after one 'nice' attempt then you just put them back in and say 'bedtime' until they stop.

We also had success with the leaving door open if you stay in bed but closing it if you get up thing when ds was younger.

I'm finding the getting out of bed that DS does very wearing. It's when we first put him down and he comes up with all kinds of excuses to get up again - needing the toilet, wanting his sleeping music on/off, losing his teddy bear (or rather thrwoing it behind his bed) etc. etc. I start off really calm and get more and more wound up.

I've tried incentivising him, promising I'd go in and see him if he satyed in bed for so long, talking to him, taking toys away but it seems to be only when I shout at him that he'll finally stay there. I end up hating myself but need my evenings too.

weasle: there is a bit in the book about labelling children, which I found v helpful and a little upsetting as I could see we were heading towards seeing DS1 (who isn;t yet 3) as a problem, stubborn child rather than the lovely tho infuriating little child he is.

The fantasy thing really does work. My Ds1 (5.10) and Ds2 (3.2) were very unhappy and reluctant to leave Bubba Baloos yesterday (giant indoor play center here in Canada). We had been there for almost 2 hours and when it was time to leave, Ds2 lay on the floor, refusing to put his shoes on etc. while Ds1 started whining about how unfair it was and how he wished he could live at Bubba Baloos forever! I used that wish as fantasy by saying something like "Oh yes! Now where would be a good place for your bed ...how about in the big orange tunnel? And where would we cook? I think I'd put the stove on the pirate platform and I could toss your sausages into the ball room etc. etc." Both boys were giggling and coming up with all sorts of ungenious ideas which carried on much of the way home.

Well, some good moments today, but a couple of those red mist ones. twice today he ran off down the road as he didn't think we'd waited long enough before the green man appeared whilst waiting to cross.

The second time i did manage to say 'I don't like that, it scares me' rather then 'you naughty boy' etc. And then he did 'snap out' of the rage a bit quicker and meekly followed me home.

Have tried the online 'highly sensitive' quiz, and he comes out moderate i think, but i am very high I do remember having similar issues as a kid to the ones we are having with ds1, and was labeled awkward, daydreamer, difficult, moody, stropy, cry baby, and don't want ds1 to have the same. Shall buy book.

Has anyone also got The Pocket Parent? Similar style as HTT but is specifically designed for those emergency situations.

I had an emergency moment today and lost it my son (5-first day of hols) had built a lovely den and his 13 month sister rampaged near it and he pushed her over and she feel onto her face (not aggressively, just wanting her to get away) but seeing her hurt I grabbed him too hard and all the proper things to say went out the window as I shouted.

red mist...

Also wondering about toy-snatching problems, although since I have twins I can't expect either one of them to be better than the other!! One useful tip in my twin book which I use alot is encouraging a 'swap', so the twin trying to snatch has to give the other one a nice toy in exchange. It kind of works because often they find something better and lose interest in snatching, or the person being stolen from prefers the new toy. Or at the very least, they stop and think for a minute and think about making the other one happy too. It doesn't always work mind, often very ropey toy choices!! It also gives me something calm and fun to talk about rather than shouting 'stop snatching!!'.

I have a friend who is an elder sibling (as am I, but never felt like this), who has an abiding memory of childhood that she was always supposed to behave cos she was older, and saw her sister as the favourite as she always got away with things (in her opinion). It still bothers her now. I know that doesn't help you, but interesting how these things stick!!

Hi weasle, the HSC book is certainly very interesting though ditto your thoughts re too many parenting books!!...I have little enough time to read one let alone two. I knew this was going to happen when I ordered but HSC rand too many bells to ignore!

Tbh there is quite a bit online about the HSC including an online tick box type test to establish (in the loosest way) if there is a chance your child is HS. So I would say you can get a feel for it all before you order to see if it is really relevant. It sounds like your ds could be.

It is all relevant to this thread though as discipline presents the same but also in some ways some additional challenges and quality communication is so important.

Let us know if you get it! Perhaps we should start a HSC thread! I got it on the back of a recommendation on here!

Definate epiphany here penona DD's are 3.5 and 21 months, it does not work at all with DD2...

What is getting me is when DD's fight over a toy, it seems really unfair to expect DD1 to be all responsible and grown up and not snatch when DD2 is trying to bite her to snatch the toy. Any ideas?

Also, linserella, I am interested in the highly sensitive child book, perhaps my ds1 is this?

He doesn't like change, and unexpected events often throw him into a spin. He can be very thoughtful to others and is quite shy in group situations. What is your dd like?

I might buy the book, but i have too many parenting books already and no time to read them!

hello, i'd like to join too please.

we have had a very shouty weekend. i'm not feeling well today (a cold) and so am finding it all harder to deal with and have been in tears twice today at breakfast and bath time.

ds1 (3.3) is the main problem. His behaviour is not good and i have been trying various things for the last few months with no improvement. i have read a bit of HTTSKWL, and think it works better with ds1 than other things (bribes, punishments, withdrawing treats/toys etc). But i do find it hard to think clearly when i am angry, in a hurry etc.

So my plan is
1) Read book again (third time, but only ever got to chapter 2!)

2) Write down situations and triggers for bad behaviour to see if i can find a pattern to it and avoid full melt down.

3) Decide on a discipline strategy and stick with it. A mix of rewards/punishment, time out, go to your room, does not give consistency and is confusing. Get dh to agree also.

4) Stop saying negative things that ds1 can hear 'it's hard work being your mummy sometimes' seems to be a common, shameful one

5) Slow down, listen to them (also have ds2, 18mo) and be patient

Will check back in when i read book again and start doing it.

just came across this.... helpful guide

And what comes in the next chapter? I am trying to remember and use chapter one info.

Going to look for book in library next week and see if I can read it before it goes back!

Oh JackBauer sounds like you've had an epiphany! (I think is the spelling?) Am really pleased this is working for you. How old are your DDs again?

Have tried a bit of the describing feelings but think is too many words for them (just 2) at the moment. But we had lots of fun with wishes in fantasy which I am very much enjoying and so are they, especially during the nightmare of mealtimes. Yesterday's went:

me - would you like some fruit
DD - want peanut butter
me - would you like fruit and pnut butter?
<dd looks confused>
me - maybe you'd like to eat the cat with peanut butter (cat has just sauntered in)
DS - a pigeon! pigeon with peanut butter
DD - butterfly
DS blackbird
etc etc etc naming all the birds we know with various toast toppings

DD - can i get down now? (forgetting all about peanut butter).

The book arrived from Amazon, though I have to confess to not having started it yet due to another The Highly Sensitive Child ordered at the same time taking priority, it describes my dd (age 2.10) accurately and has me enthralled. However I'm getting a lot out of reading these posts and getting a feel for the philosophy behind this.

I find now that when I shout at my dd she shouts back at me proof if ever there was that this doesn't work.

I had a lovely, in depth two-way with her the other day playing catch with a ball. She loves to do this but on this occasion she was feeling a bit below par so that is possibly why she was less easily distracted and as we sat opposite eachother throwing the ball back and fore and laughing / joking around, I was asking her questions about all sorts and she was giving me really well thought out replies. It was lovely and felt like real golden time communicating properly. I think the ball throwing had us both focus, I'm going to try it again. Just an idea.

I'll remain lurking and perhaps put the Sensitive Child book to one side so I can actually read this other one!

Well, I still don't have the book(although it's on it's way!), but I've been making a massive effort, and I've had a fabulous few days - including 24 hours looking after my neighbours kids, and taking my two across London for a museum trip....

I'm amazed how well some really simple things work - for me, the big ones have been ackowledging feelings, and describing the problem/explaining the consequence. I really noticed it with dh around - and the extent to which me describing things actually got them moving faster (understandable really - who likes being nagged?)

I'm in. Read the book a few months ago but I need to read it again. I've had a horrible shouty few days with DS (2.4) and I hate it, especially because he finds it hilarious and deliberately does things to get a reaction out of me, which he then mimics, giggling. He's a really accurate mimic, as well, which does not help!!

It si a good hting if you can remember
I use it at work too

I got the book the other day and have skim read most of it. Am completely converted, honestly. Not to say I haven't had 'moments of screechiness' but I am gobsmacked at the co-operation I have got out of the DD@S

I have been using it a lot with DD1, my favourite thing was yesterday, just before bedtime, when al the toys needed tidying up.
I ask every day for them to help me, and they never ever do, so the conversation went like this
-Right DD1, we need to tidy all these toys before I cna get your milk for bedtime, can you help me please?
-I don't want to help, I want to watch telly.
-Hmm, I don't like tidying all by myself, what do you think we shoudl do?
-We should not tidy and then I can play with them all tomorrow?
-Ok, that's an idea, lets write that down.
Went to get pen crayon and paper envelope
wrote down
Do bugger all (DD's can't read)
-What are you doing mummy? Can I help?
-I am writing a list of how we can tidy up the toys, that was your idea, I think you shoudl do it with DD2 and I should do nothing
wrote down
child labour
DD1 started giggling and climbed up onto my lap and we ended up with a few suggestions, including my favourite one of DD's
-We should all jump up and down and the toys will bounce into the toybox!

Ended up crossing some silly ones out and the one left was, we all tidy, mummy gets the milk and we watch peppa pig before bed.

And then DD1 helped me tidy up! and properly, not just half heartedly, full on 'mummy, where shall I put this?, can this go in here?' type helping.



Definatly feeling more in control of myself and of the DD's as I am not just winging it but have an idea of where/how I want conversation to go.

DH is using the one word thing as well as he gets shouty very quickly with lots of instruction, he has found it a lot easier to just say one thing, and is really shocked at how well it works!

I started re-reading the book about two nights and am still on chapter one. However, I'm finding just changing my sentences to "I am..." is helping
i.e., "I am getting cross that you're not cleaning your teeth as I asked you to".
If this isn't enough I am then just saying "teeth" and walking away. So far, so not bad! Life has certainly been quieter and calmer in the mckenzie household these last 2 days. Personally, I think I am calmer just because now I am reading the book I feel like I am getting back in control of the situation. Does anyone else feel like that? I have been accused of being a control freak and try not to let that side of my character get involved when the DCs are concerned but it's hard. I want to have the last word and so does 4 year old DD!! .

I've made heroic efforts the last couple of days to be patient, listen and talk properly with DS1, and really play with him properly, too. We have had much easier days! I am feeling tentatively encouraged, and hoping that things will continue to improve and this way of dealing with him will start to become easier for me - it doesn't exactly come naturally to me at the moment!

I got a bit shirty with him one evening at bedtime, and as soon as my voice went up, he got really upset and screamed back at me. It was a real revelation that my shouting at him really upsets him, and just doesn't work. So am a bit worried about when PMT comes round...

<Buys Evening Primrose oil, practises deep breathing>>

I'm not sure about the emergency situations either. If DS1 were running into the traffic I'd certainly yell at him to stop. Maybe if you're not shouting the whole time it's more effective? <ponders>

Sounds like a pretty positive day JB

Meg: end of the day is a stresssful time for us as well and DS1 also does that running round naked and screeching thing . I suspect a lot of it is down to jealousy of DS2 - DS1 get stories then a firm bedtime, DS2 gets to feed and cuddle for ages if he doesn't feel like sleeping, and even comes down to watch some telly if he's really not settling. I did wonder about putting DS1's beditme a little later (older privilege?) Mayeb say 'OK you can play for 20 mins while I feed DS2 then it's bedtime (and hopefully DS2 will have dozed off by then).

<<ignores giantkatestacks>>

Honestly though, I cannot see it working with DD2, but at least I can get the practis in with DD1 as I feel I will need it more for the younger one

This is going to be really unhelpful - so much so that I have hesitated to say it but my ds only really started to respond to it when he was about 4 - earlier it wouldnt work because he just couldnt control his impulses enough. Or I couldnt control mine enough because the situations were emergencies as above.

I need to read this thread, and finish reading the book ( I put it away in despair after a long and tiring day trying to explain why dd1 couldn't have a million red balloons - I'm rubbish at coming up with the wishes infantasy thing).

Dd1 has watched/read far too much Little Princess, and spends the whole day saying " I want...." at the moment it is a scooter and daddy , she says it over andd over again, sings it, screams it and wails it. It is driving me crazy, I have started swigging rescue remedy from the bottle.

I really need help!

The rest of the day has been pretty half and half. DD's woudln't eat tea (again) and while I can explain to DD1 that she isn't getting anything else unless she eats some DD2 doesn't seem to understand or care.

On the other hand DD1 asked me for a cuddle in her bed as she was frightened and I am ashamed to say I normally pull the 'there's nothing to be frightened of' line but todya I lay down and just let her waffle for a few minutes.
I discovered that she wanted tea frist tomorrow, then breakfast, then pudding, then lunch and a chocolate bar for bed (obsessed with chocolate that child). We tried to magic up some chocolate using my wedding ring but it's broken, cue much giggling from us both and then she said 'I'm going to sleep now, you go downstairs, night night'
Score!

Hi - could I join please ?

I've been lurking for a couple of days whilst awaiting arrival of the book. I've now just got to summon the energy to read it !

DD is 2.2 and we've had a very trying few weeks. I'm 16 weeks pg and still exhausted/nauseous and neither of us have been coping particularly well with the heat the last couple of days. Consequently, we both seem to have spent the whole week either shouting/screeching or crying (I've managed to avoid throwing myself on the floor and kicking my legs, but dd hasn't )

Jack/Penona - I also wondered about the "emergency" situations. I just imagined have the fantasy conversations along the lines of "wouldn't it be lovely if we could just pinch and kick other people all day long" and then realised if anyone overheard, they might think I was training her up to be some kind of serial killer

Lets hope someone comes on and tells us what to do. They wake up shortly and the fighting will start again!

YY penona, that si what I need!

You want to smack your sister because she has a toy you want.
Not really going to work, is it?!

Am also wondering how to deal with 'emergency' situations, where one child is about to smack the other one and you aren't close enough to just move them apart? Is shouting OK then? TBH it's not terribly effective in our house, they tend to ignore me which is a bit depressing. But don't really have time to explain in great detail why they shouldn't drop something on the other's head, so end up shouting NO!

Morning/afternoon all. Well have been trying out a few things today and had a few successes...
Sainsbo's sent me blue looroll this month instead of white. DD1 does not like it and demands a wipe instead, cue argument with me saying 'it's exactly the same' when it clearly isnt
So
DD1 - I want white looroll, I don't like blue
Me <<deep breath>> - You like the white because that's what we normally have?
-Yes.
-Would you like to make everything white?
-Yes, and make chocolate white
-All chocolate?
-Yes, and Dadda likes white chocolate and he woudl eat it all?
-What, even if your pyjamas were made of chocolate?
-Bleurgh, that woudl be disgusting.
<pause>
<DD1 wipes bum with blue looroll>

I also let DD2 carry her cereal bowl to the table after realising that is why she is crying everymorning while I get breakjfast out (I thought she was just hungry) I didn't want to let her incase she spilled it, and then I clicked and gave her a bowl with no milk, so I didn't care if it spilt.

Then at soft play place DD1 wanted a chocolate egg, I started the whole 'what if everything was made of chocolate, even your thumbs' and she wandered off after chatting.
However I found her a few mibnutes later standing next to the chocolate display

I did have to yell at her when she pushed DD2 intentionally as she wanted to steal her toy, so how would I deal with that without shouting and sitting her down to think?

(have ordered book btw!)

Hello am just marking my spot on here. Sounds like exactly the place I should be, have 2.1yr old twins so life is getting very shouty indeed as they get into incredible mischief. Have DD who is quite well behaved but gets easily upset and angry and a much calmer DS who frankly ignores whatever I say and carries on regardless.
I am liking some of the early ideas, have not heard of this book but might have to invest! Some times in the month I am just hideous awful horrid mother, other times all serene and calm. Poor kids.

Was interested in someone's comment about mum being out of control = children feeling insecure. What's the thinking behind that? My DD has been v clingy recently since I totally lost it over a yogurt hurling episode a week ago. Wondering if that's why?

Yes, he has a steroid cream so he gets even more cross when I don't let him hold the tube. (I do let him hold the non-steroidal emollient and subsequently all my clothing is very well-moisturised.)

Two is lovely most of the time (it helps that DS2 is the most laidback baby ever) but bedtime is a real flash point. DS1 doesn't want to get out of the bath, then runs around like a maniac, occasionally wees on the bedroom floor, and (his latest maddening habit) bounces on the bed while I try to persuade him to get creamed/nappy on/into sleeping bag. Meanwhile DS2 is often working up to cry as he still wants to cluster-feed just before his bedtime.

Then comes storytime. DS1 gets hysterical if DS2 doesn't lie down next to him for bedtime stories. Very sweet, but DS2 hates lying down on the bed and screams as soon as you put him down. So I have one or the other (sometimes both) crying at me. This is all at the end of a long day of looking after them both, and my patience is at its thinnest, so I do sometimes get snappy.

Btw JB, can you make any sense of my vague posts on chs 1 and 2 (feelings and cooperation) or do you want me to copy bits out summarise? Am happy to do so tho I prob need to go to bed at some point so may be tomorrow

Terrible typing, sorry!

Hello Meg - you mean we both have stubborn children? . How's it going with two?

Re: age, the authors claim it's never too early or too late but then they would . As I said earlier, if it helps you keep a patient tone I think that cn have a huge difference. Really noticed it today with DS1, I lost it and shouted at him and he immediately reacted and got cross and upset.

For me the single most important thing is to listen, properly. And to respond properly rather than just carrying on.

maybe put the nappy on your head or try to put it on yourself and fall over in the process?

I guess the cream is steroid based so you can't put that on yourself in silly places like on your nose?

Meg, I think that is where Playful Parenting has some useful add ons, DS has to have a certain routine for health issues each night and if he won't comply I put the orthotics on my head and dance around and play them like a trombone and then I put them to one side and read one story and by then DS has usually made his point about doing things to his body when he wants to do them, and he then has them put on happily and willingly. We then read extra stories because he has been such a big and brave boy. Play and bribery mix.

No, that's the problem. Example from earlier, I have forewarned that it's nearly lunchtime and we have to go in, 5 min wanring, 1 min wanring, tell them to go in, DD1 goes compliantly, DD2 screeches, hits me, collapses in a dramatic heap on teh floor and then gets herself in such a state that she can't eat.
Not helped by DD1 saying 'Look, mummy, I'm good girl eating my lunch. DD2 isn't a good girl'
Which I know I never say, but still she keeps saying it.
SO if I tried 'You want to stay out all day DD2 would just want to stay out all day, surely?'

Hello can I join please? Haven't got the book yet -- will see if the library has it.

DS1 is 2.4 and incredibly stubborn bloodyminded independent of thought. Main battles are nappy-changing and putting on his eczema cream (both things which absolutely have to be done) -- ie moments when I need him to come here, lie down and stay bloody still. I do try to be patient but it often seems to end in me wrestling him to the ground .

I have the book too - does it work with a 2 yr old? I've kind of skimmed it but shelved it for later but 2 yr old is extremely tantrummy. His favourite words are "want it".

JB: would DD2 pick up on what her sister does? Also, I think one of the most important thing for me is that it changes my tone of voice as much as the words I say.

Is it worth buying the book or can I lurk and pick up tips? DD's are 3.6 and 1.10 and both very strong willed, DD2 is not verbal though she understands what I say, so how could I get it to work when she throws her mega tantrums?

uebm, I would second/third goign to your GP and asking if thewre is help available, it is good that you can see what you are doing though IYSWIM and are lookign for ways to hgelp you deal with it.

oh and one thing I am going to try (cos I suspect the wishes thing won't work always with DS1) is writing things down: so say 'I'm writing down that DS1 wants X'

would that work?

UBM: you're right about perpetuating your parents' behaviour: I find myself psrroting phrases I heard from my parents which is funny in a way, until you remember how powerless and angry they made you feel. And then you get angry and say them anyway...

because I said so
I don't care what you want, you're having...
stop shrieking/stop screaming/be quiet/calm down
it's not important

ok, so today, I should have sat down on the grass verge, and said 'yes DS, I wish we could stay and play with your friends, we could play all day and all night and drive little cars everywhere, especially diggers...'
Maybe that would have been enough, just to acknowledge his momentary sadness. Rather than start a brusque 'come on enough whinging' which then increases his distress which then winds me up further.... And we end up both getting so upset for so much longer than if I'd just taken five in the first place...

I am really going to give this a go.

I'd like to join in too please. DS1 is 4 on Saturday and for the first 3 years of his life I was patience and tolerance personified. His behaviour has become very irritating/challenging over the past year and although some of it may be attributable (is that a word btw?) to his age, starting nursery and the arrival 4 months ago of DS2, I know that really it's largely down to me (kickstarted by pregnancy and money worries) and that my behaviour is fuelling his.

I've had the book for ages and have read bits though sometimes I have felt DS has just been a bit too young for it.

Another good read is Playful Parenting by Lawrence J Cohen

thank you so much for starting this thread! I've had some hideously bad days recently (bad because I have lost my temper with the DCs, their behaviour has been trying but probably no worse than your average 4 and 8 year olds would be). I've read the thread with great interest and have been inspired to go and buy the book but then realised that I already have it!!! Bought ages and ages ago, stuck on the book shelf and forgotten. I'm off to bed now to get started on it.

Tomorrow is another day

you're right that sleep deprivation can make matters worse. When DS was a baby I went to GP and asked how to get DS adopted as I really wasn't coping then due to lack of sleep. GP said to come back when he was 2 to discuss it again and by then he was sleeping more so I felt more able to struggle on.

uebm - didnt mean to pry - i have wandered down your path due to severe sleep deprivation and wondered if it was the same boat. Admire your honesty and wish you smooth passage as you continue on your journey thro dealing with this.

friend of mine has CBT from trainee psychotherapist - cheaper (not sure how much) but obv therapist not v experienced. But maybe better than nothing?

uebm - sorry if any of this sounds way off, patronising etc - not meant to, but short on time and don't have time to vet typing for insensitivity etc...

You sound so down - please consider seeing your GP and asking for whatever help is available. I can't imagine having to carry on feeling as you do. I recognise the cycle of shout/anger, crippling guilt and weeping, and then feeling the irritation surge up again. I don't know what the answer is, but I have sought help dealing with my DS1 before and would do so again if things got very bad.

If your DS has to have regular check ups at hosp, presumably he has an ongoing condition? Any help available with that? Support groups?

It's so tough being a parent - please try not to beat yourself up. I am the queen of that, and it really doesn't help. Hope things improve soon.

sleep is fine. I have been in therapy for ten eyars and am a much more 'together' person than I was a decade ago. Intellectually I know what i'm doing and why it is wrong as I do it but I get 'flooded' and regress and act in dreadful ways. I know this is how I was treated as a child but that is no excuse. The rot has to stop with me. or DS will parent his children like this one day. Therapy is £50 once a week - I'd like some CBT too as 'mental tics' to overwrite the starting of a melt down but I can't afford it hence I thought HTTSKWL was a useful DIY form, i.e. lots of 'tricks' and mental habits to impose self control on the parent as much as the child. i know that I am the problem, not DS.

how much sleep are you getting uvbm? i shouted at ds in hospital this week. He is incapable of following any instructions at mo and he wouldnt sit in area needed to actually be seen by specialist. (if you dont come when called you dont get seen and they dont hunt for you- we'd waited 3mnths for appt) Sleep helps. Think will watch and consider if it can be addapted to ds. he is an unusual case. (Webster stratton lady said so )

I'm in, I have the book, I am sick of my behaviour. Today i lost it with DS and I knew why he was upset (leaving playgroup, he wanted to carry on being with his little friends) and he refused to walk home and I had to carry him in the heat with him wailing inconsolably - so in exasperation I threw him into someone's front garden and left him sobbing there while I stomped 10 yads down the road. Yes, I threw him. He is 2.9. You see why I chose my username. I get angry way out of proportion, my brain is telling me clearly why DS is so upset but my emotions are those of a two year old too and I am evil.
I hate myself for it.
Today the cashier in the check out commented what a sweet and well behaved child I had. I wanted to weep. I am so damned impatient with him and lose it totally when he is just being human and less than perfect.
I have considered killing myself in the past so he is free of me as his mother.
I yelled at him in hospital this week as he was having a regular check up and was probably a bit perplexed and confused and yet I threatened to slap him, roared at him that he was a 'stupid, useless cripple' and so traumatised him that he wouldn't come to me afterwards for a cuddle. Understandably so.
so, the rest of you, you are doing just fine. You could be me.

I read this book and really liked it, and have been trying v hard to put it into practice, because things were getting far too shouty and I just hated it, it's not the way i want to be with my boys...

I found the "wishes in fantasy" thing didn't work quite as quickly or smoothly as the book implied - but as someone else said earlier, if you really get into it, it helps quite a bit.

FWIW, I've just had my first truly lovely day with DS1 (3.4) and DS2 (1.4) for a while - which is a bit to admit to... I tried to really listen to DS1 and talk to him properly rather than just issuing instructions. And I played properly with him (building blocks) for 20-30 minutes after breakfast, after which he brushed his teeth and got dressed like a lamb, which is usually one of our worst flashpoints.

Also, DH and I have decided to try to reduce our house rules to just 2 - (1) Be kind and gentle (DS1 is a shover - sigh) and (2) Speak nicely (he tends to scream when angry, and it often riles me and I shout back ). I think we were trying to impose too many restrictions on him, and he was getting frustrated. And we thought that those 2 rules actually encompass quite a lot, being quite broad - that's the theory, anyway... And obviously they apply to all of us - they're on the fridge in magnetic letters (bit twee, I know) in the hope that they will sink in to my thick skull.

Trying not to get too excited, but really hoping we can all turn a corner. Will watch thread with interest!

I have no idea DEM: there are anecdotes in the book on the technique working with children who have ADHD but no idea on literal-mindedness. I guess the basic precept is fostering a culture of respect rather than 'do what I say' which would be helpful?

opps he told his dad he did, he doesn't do play.

i blame the heat.

Would this work with a literal child - ie one that has no imagination and doesn't do fantasy. Oh and is very confrontational -and gets a kick out of doing it?

<whispers very very quietly> he has never believed in father christmas I have tried to encourage it, alot, his dad told him if he didnt believe he wouldn't get presents so he told his dad but last year when told to ask fc for something he just shrugged turned round and asked grannie for it. He was only three.

We did the early years course thing but that made him worse (he does do play -dont ask). So would this work for this situation -any advice...

Sorry a bit of hijack.

I would like to join this too - will buy the book when I am next in town. I know that shouting doesnt work and in fact makes both of us miserable (DD is 2.6). The problem is that sometimes time is so short or I am so tired that I just revert to shouting because it is quicker. Have just done it now over bedtime cos she was messing about and I have chores to do and am too hot etc etc.

BUT I know all the time that it would just resolve itself much quicker if I didnt shout but tried a more gently persuasive method to get what I want.

Hadnt heard of the book before but will give it a whirl - I am so fed up of the sound of my raised voice. Am pregnant too and keep thinking that poor soon to be DD2 is lying there wondering what kind of monster mother she has let herself in for!

well I'm still having problems when I need to get him to do something NOW and can't have a big discussion about it

but I do think we are being calmer which is a good thing

must read ch. 3 soon!

GAH

Any idea how to stop a toddler trying to nreak your glasses first thing in the morning without shouting at him? Tried the HTT approach but he was about to break them and I simply can't afford a new pair at the moment . So I yelled and he cried but at least I got my glasses back unscathed

must do better

Can I be in too please - am trying to apply the techniques to my 5yo ds and they do work when I apply them but sometimes (far too often) I find myself shouting instead...

What really works well for him btw is the drawing it out approach when he's cross and also showing me how cross he is by attacking a pillow because they both turn into a fun game and defuse the situation.

Have had success with the fantasy thing as well - last night he wanted 5 mins more of bedtime reading but couldnt because he'd tarted around too long getting ready for bed and so we ended up wishing that we lived in the library in a tent so that it wouldnt be an issue...

Brill thread Effie, thanks for starting it. I am Mrs Shouty of Shouty Street so must definitely join. I have 2 DDs of 4 and 2(rather wilful, esp in the heat) and a DS of 6 mths (a wee angel (for now))

I have been trying to listen more and like the other suggestions. No doubt the school and nursery runs will give me a chanve to try them out. Will also get book from Amazon.

Re: boot camp, the book says to doa ch a week but a) I'll have to take it back to the lib halfway through and b) I need help on getting DS1 to DO things so I think I'll try chapters 1 and 2 together for the next few days - anyone else with me?

Ch 2 has some good stuff on cooperation getting them to do what you want - punishments and so on come later on. The basic skills are (not to be done in order, pick whichever works):

1. Describe what you see / the problem
(the milk is out on the table)

2. Give information (milk goes off if it's kept out of the fridge)

3. Say it with a word (milk!)

4. Describe how you feel (I don;t want to have to go and buy more milk)

5. Write a note (can't think of a milk related one here!)

The idea as far as I see is to give your children the space to see the problem and solve it by themselves, rather than telling them exactly what to do the whole time. I like the one-word thing, I find myself giving a bemused DS1 long lectures on stuff rather than keeping it simple. Notes wouldn't work yet I think, but pictures might be worth a try?

In case it helps anyone, these are the main flashpoints we have during the day in getting DS1 to cooperate (DS2 is only 6 mo and doesn;t have much of a choice yet!)

Breakfast (actually all meals): sitting at the table and eating rather than charging about/playing and then screaming when food is taken away

Getting dressed

Going to the toilet on time (in the middle of toilet training, so this is work in progress)

Getting out of the house

Getting in the pushchair

Demanding stuff in shops

Getting bored in queues (fair enough)

Wanting to walk but then taking hours to get anywhere

Not screaming/jumping/bashing stuff in the house while DH is trying to work (he works from home)

Going to sleep without demanding umpteen toys and MUMMY every 5 mins

Putting all that down, I make a lot of demands on DS1. Poor sausage. Must look at ways to but down my expectations as well.

Plus I'll be working again on the listening cos I need to.

Humm, didn't have a great day today (we were all tired and hot) but inspired to try listening tomorrow - you're right effie, parents do tend to be in talk mode...

I will lurk - I have tried this book but really don't get it. Some things I can see work - granting wishes is much the same as general distraction in my book.

The things I find just do not work are things like discribe the problem.

ie rather than 'stop jumping on the sofas'
'Sofa's are not for jumping on'

My son would reply - 'Yes they are!'

Or asking children to apply reason rather than beating each other over the head.

what a lovely conversation huffwardly Wish my convo's with dd (4) went that way...

Its so hard not to be a shouty mum...

I find these techniques really work well with my dd. She's just 3.

She doesn't respond at all to punishment or bribes, but HTT is great for her.

I shall dig out my copy and have a re-read. Could probably do with a refresher course.

The granting their wishes in fantasy thing is brilliant with dd.

Today...
Me: Come on dd we're going to get in the car now.
Her: I don't WANT to get in the carrrrrr!
Me: It would be nice to stay at home and not have to go out, wouldn't it?
Her: Yes. And never go in the car ever again.
Me: That would be lovely!
Her: I want to go in a boat.
Me: Oh that's a good idea. Much nicer than a car. Shall we go to the shops in our boat instead?
Her: [cheerfully getting in the car] Are you the captain of this boat Mummy? Shall we be priates?

oh I have just ordered the talk book and the siblings without rivalry too I was also recommended another book on my other thread which should show on my profile too. something about a strong willed child which also looked good.

I have an almost 3 year old ds and a 5 yrear old ds and at the moment I am at the end of my tether too. all the fighting, completely ignoring everything I say etc etc the list is endless.

oh and re: tantrums, there'sa useful bit about helping children express their feelings: a popular method seems to be to get them to draw how angry they are. Or if they want sometingm write it down (a handy tip for shops)

Hello everyone

A quick update from me: part of the problem is that I have NO TIME with DS1 and DS2 (6mo), one toilet training and the other weaning...

Well the listening thing has been hard hard work for me. I hadn't realised how little I actually listen to DS1. Most of the time is spent on me telling him what to do, nagging him for not doing it then exploding. It's get up, get dressed, eat your breakfast, eat your breakfast PROPERLY, sit at the table, don't bother your brother, go to the toilet, put your pants back on, get dressed, get dressed NOW, IF YOU AREN'T DRESSED YOU WILL STAY AT HOME AND DS2 AND I WILL LEAVE YOU BEHIND

and that's just the first bit of the morning

so I held back on the instructions (a bit) and listened like billy-o and some of it worked. A couple of things:

walking home from baby clinic (2 miles in the heat), I;d bought ice lollies for both of us and DS1 finished his first. Pet hate of mine: I can never finish anything cos DS1 wants 'a bit'

DS1: have some of Mummy's
Me: It's Mummy's lolly (I am hot and cross and I want this lolly, I have in fact reverted to being 2 myself)
DS1: Lolly! Want lolly!
Me: <finishes lolly>
DS1: WAAAAAHHHH!
Me: DS1 is cross because he wanted Mummy's lolly. And she finished it without giving him any.
DS1: <sniffs>
Me: would you like some juice?
DS1: OK

and in the supermarket queue:

DS1: Have lolly! (you may see a theme here, but it is HOT)
Me: You can't have one yet
DS1: WAAHHHH!
Me: (feeling a bit of an eejit) Ah, you're cross because you want your lolly now. We pay for things before we eat them, don;t we?
DS1: Yes (and no more screaming!)

We did have a meltdown over bathtime though . Lots of shouting from me and DS1 running naked all over the house...

I'd like to join in too please - thanks EffiePerine for starting this thread. I too read the book a while back and started out well but have been forgetting bits over time.

DD is 2.4 and I've gradually, over the last couple of months, slipped into too much bribery and shouting. DD2 is due tomorrow and things can only get harder...

Will try and make sure I try the wishes in fantasy today. I use the 'giving the feeling a name' a bit already.

Oh, and excuse me if I disappear for a couple of weeks; will be lurking but if I'm not posting it's because the baby's arrived

Imoverhere, we have similar issues here. It's as if nce he gets wound up about something there is an unwritten script that we have to follow whih starts with him being sulle, whiney and ignoring me, goes through several stages of arguing back and forth and ends up with me shouting and him being sent to the time out zone.

It's how to break that cycle that is my biggest challenge.

sounds like a bad morning CJ, but we have been there and things are slowly getting better for us. I'm also trying not to be so hard on him, or critical thanks to some recent advice on here. The improvement has been vast in only a week! I'll find my thread and link it

I'm in - I've done this before and found it really helpful, but could do with refocusing. Don't have the book atm, though, so will rely on effie's recap til I get a copy.

Fwiw, we have found giving wishes in fantasy hugely helpful- amazingly so. For us the key was do it straight away - don't expect it to calm down a full-blown stage 3 tantrum. And go for it big stylee. "Yeah, lets eat all the chocolates in the world, I've got a million, how many do you have?"

With the dcs, I pretend I have a magic wand and magic their wishes straight up. And then get pretend-frustrated when my wand doesn't work.
With ds (5), I also do deals - "You want an ice cream - OK, I want a convertible beatle, a holiday in barbados, and some Jimmy Choos. You get me my things, then you can have icecream. What do you mean you can't??!"

I'm going to lurk as well (don't have the book, but probably need it).

And I want a chocolate house !

having a strawberry squeezy smoothie - managed to divert to a banana instead so very happy with that!

I am going to lurk on here if that's ok. DS only 11 months but I want to try and start right. Already the 'NO!s' are feeling like hard work.

I'm in, too. Feel like I'm completely losing it with DS (6). He's too clever for me, twists me round his little finger ...

This morning I got cross and shouted. I decided to do a 'nice' thing (disaster) ie have breakfast in the garden, as it was such a nice morning. They (also have DD who is nearly 4) got completely carried away with this disruption to routine, and as soon as I went into the kitchen to clear up, they were off, on the trampoline, and refused to listen to me. Whole morning routine a disaster from then on. They were like a couple of puppies, running in all directions, and gaily saying 'no' when I asked them to put shoes on, have hair brushed etc.

On the way to school, I turned into a six-year-old myself and DS completely beat me at my own game . He asked if we could stop to look at something and I said 'no, we're late, we have to go' and kept walking. Then I tried to talk to them about drinking from their water bottles and the little shit started going 'la la la, I'm not listening'. I stood there like a twat, feeling utterly powerless. Then I stomped off back towards the house, saying 'OK, take yourselves to school, I'm out of here'. .

Walked back, they stood staring at me and DS said 'OK, I will'. At which point of course I had to turn round and fucking cave in. I feel such a bloody idiot. Took them to school, tried to make it up with him but he can see I'm weak, indecisive and he totally played me. I feel so pathetic. I didn't really shout, just lost it in terms of control and feel awful because I know this is what upsets kids most of all - they feel insecure if they see us being like this.

Sorry, that wasn't meant to be such a huge rant but I'm so cross with myself. Think it helped to get it out!

With the wishing thing, do you have to start before they've got too upset/ started crying, do you think? If so, we're a bit stuffed because dd is doing pre-emptive crying atm - starting before she's even explained what she wants or been told, no.

I bought the book on Amazon yesterday so will join in if I can. My DD is 3.8 and has always been a challenge but lately we have gone from whinging (still there but not as bad) to straight out sodding defiance and it is DRIVING ME MAD!

Like some of you I find the only time she listens is if I shout and then she shouts at me for shouting and we completely miss the point of why she was shouted at. It is all so hard work all the time. I know that she can be brilliant and funny and loving and bright and chirpy, but tbh I've lost sight of that a bit lately because it is getting to me. I've got 4mth old DS in the mix too (although he is a good baby and no bother - at the moment).

Crappy mummy I lost it with DD on Saturday and smacked her bum - we made up and I still feel bad.

I actually do the fantasy thing (didn't know that was what it was called as haven;'t read the book yet) and it does work sometimes.

what did you do it about, flick?

I'm in.
have become far too shouty over the last few months. have been on ad's and not coping so well, but do not want to have to resort to shouting which we do with ds (2.11) pretty much because he just ignores us unless we are shouting.

and have jusst done the wishing fantasy thing and it worked!!!

I like the wishes in fantasy thing

It does work for us but you have to really get into it IYSWIM

So not ' Yes well I wish you could have chocolate for breakfast but you CANT'

more, 'wow, yes, and I wish we had chocolte milk to go on the chocolate and a chocolate bowl to eat it from. And I could have a chocolate cup of tea. Do you think we could have a chocolate house?

and you can't be being sarcastic

of course they do think you're mad but joining in is fun

I'd like to join in (even though dd is only 5 months). I'm going to get the book from the library today. Start as I mean to go on!!

Have just ordered this as we are finding that DD 4 has literally stopped listening to us, leading to much frustrating repetition of requests that are descending into shouting. We have a 3 week old ds which is no doubt part of the cause. It would be great if this helps the situation.

Oh - and crappy, we all have crappy days - hope today's better for you.

That sentence looks odd. I think you need a more self-esteem building username.

Count me in.

My dd1 (3.3) has started saying she's fed up (wonder where she got that from ).

I think the giving them their wishes in fantasy is also to do with day-to-day stuff, like "I want pink youghurt", "Mmmh, I can understand that, that's really tasty. I wish we had some pink youghurt, if we had had any I would have given it to you, but unfortunately we don't". Maybe in not so many words IYSWIM. "So here's an apple instead"

Have the book, will lurk for a bit.

Agree about the "giving them their wishes in fantasy" bit. When I try that, dd (2.8) cries more. When dp points a finger in her face and says, 'Stoppit, stop crying. Stop.' She does. It's kind of depressing <thwarted hippie>.

CM - you don't sound like a crappymummy at all. We all have moments, usually when tired, when we lose it and children often keep going and going and going til you do lose it.

Have any of you read the 'Adventures in Gentle Discipline' by Hilary Flower btw?

yesterday, i smacked my 2 year old (on her back, not hard), and pushed her.

she had been pinching and slapping me and her newborn brother, throwing stuff and i lost it.

i have never lost it with her before - but she has never been agressive like this before. i was always patient enough to redirect, distract, remove her/myself from the situation.

i don't know what happened to me.

i can't stop thinking about it.

please can anyone help?

Can I just lurk for a bit? I have DS1 (3.6) and DS2 (2.0)(Ialso have DD but at 4 months she isn't a problem - yet) and while we have good and bad days at the mo it feels like more bad than good. I've read siblings without rivalry which was very useful but not read how to talk yet.

I think it will be baby steps for us Shanna, everyone is so wound up and ANGRY in this house a lot of the time. Oh and there's stuff about acknowledging your feelings later on without apportioning blame (i.e. 'I'm really angry' rather than' you are being a BRAT')

oh and some egs for this bit

listen properly when they are cross
acknowledge: 'oh' 'mmmm'
give feelings a name: 'you're having fun playing and don't want to go home'
fantasy: ' you wish you could live in the park and go to sleep here'

I looked it up from Waterstones yesterday. Next time I'm in town will buy it and definately join you. Dd is 5.8 and Ds is 2.9 and I'm shouting all the time. I hate it, leaves me feeling really depressed and useless.

Putting wishes into fantasy is ch 1, I think there's more stuff about dealing with brattish behaviour challenging situations later on!

Thanks for all the replies, nice to know there are others in the same boat. I'm tempted to try and put it all into practice at once but then we'd all get confused, so one thing at a time it is.

Today: naming feelings etc. I'm also trying not to nag (rather difficult at the mo) but that comes in ch 2

more this eve - am posting and running again!

nothing to add right now as i haven't read the book yet but put it into my amazon basket last night after reading another thread recommending it, i'll go right back and pay now!

your declarations sound just like me! i have one dd aged 2.10 and i've found her behaviour very challenging lately so it is looking increasingly like i'll have to change my attitude for my own sanity!

i'll be watching and will hopefully be able to contribute soon

I would stick with it as it has really worked for me and given me a better understanding of how ds is feeling and what he needs. For some reason, knowing I have a strategy also helps me to keep calm when things start to get difficult.

DS is 3.3 and I find that no matter how many times I ask him to do something, it's only when I shout that he actually complies. It's so frustrating and I hate the sound of me doing it.

That's my feeling daisy, it feels a bit disingenuous.

hmm, my DS1's response to that would be to hand me the phone

iswym though, but not sure it would work with him.

Child: I want a new bike!
Mum: No way you spoilt brat I wish I could give you a new bike, I wish I could call up father christmas and ask him to bring you a new bike

I am the shoutiest mum in the world apparently and my DS1 is in danger of getting out of control.....I'm in!

I have the book as well and only skimmed it when I first bought it. Remind me what "give them their wishes in fantasy" means

Hmmm, I'm just starting to read this (it's in the bathroom so a couple of pages a night). DD is only 2 though, so not sure how much to put into practice.

I'm not sure I get the wishes in fantasy thing. Does it really work?

I'll do this with you, DD is 3.0 and I never used to be shouty but it is creeping in and I don;t like it!

DS1 is 2.9 btw

I read How To Talk ages ago and thought blithely that I would apply it to DS1 as he got older, but after months of shouting and nagging and hauling him off stuff and away from stuff and declaring 'PUT THAT DOWN OR WE WILL GO HOME NOW, NOW DS1, GET INTO YOUR BUGGY WHY DO YOU NEVER LISTEN TO ME' I thought I was due a recap.

There's so much here that I need to go through it methodically. Anyone else up for a mini boot camp?

So ch 1 is helping children to deal with their feelings:

listen with full attention
acknowledge their feelings
give their feelings a name
give them their wishes in fantasy