I believe the OP should not overlook this. Her instincts are probably right and she needs to help her dd soonest.

Sherried ,I'm sorry about your daughter and i hope she gets over it. I have a sister like that and it's very disturbing.She's 22 years old now. What bothers me most is that she seems to believe her own lies and will never accept they're lies. I think she needs a professional and it's not too late to get one for your dd too. I also have an Uncle and an Aunt like that. Could it be hereditary? Anyone else in your family like that?

Hi All. It's my first time posting here. After reading the diverse opinions I must say that I fear trouble in the future for the little liar. Our own little liar (lovingly called a pathamagical liar for most of her childhood) has grown into a 19 year old compulsive liar. She will lie about anything! All the childhood stories we told her in order to promote honesty clearly did not have the desired effect. Over these many years we've tried every approach you can imagine. No consequence ever worked for very long. If I had it to do over again I would engage the services of a professional (counselor/ therapist) early on. This can be a much bigger problem than many parents care to admit. The lies told by our young adult now have the potential to cause great harm and she has assured us repeatedly that she "gets it" and will stop. Hasn't happened yet!!

mrsruffallo, why do you call them emotionally blackmailing type games? wouldn't you act the same in the adults world? if a friend lies to you, you simply don't give him/her your trust anymore. it's not a game, it's just how life is (teaddybear or real person).
i fully agree with you about kids avoiding the inevitable telling off but they do need to start learning to take account for their own actions (i.e. lies are bad and we all need to be able to admit our bad deeds). do you think it would be better to postpone this learning for later? how late?

... oh, and i make sure i do admit my own mistakes in front of DD! i try to explain them in front of her in order for her to understand that it's ok to be wrong, to do mistakes but it is the right thing to do to admit them. she takes great pleasure in talking about it over and over again afterwards, which is damn annoying, but at least she learns that admiting things is the right thing to do.

God, joburg, sorry but I can't stand those kind of emotionally blackmailing type games with kids.

I don't find lying that shocking. Little kids are still working stuff out. They live in the moment and want to avoid the inevitable telling off, so they lie to get out of it.

I try to ask in either a big jokey way or make it a general question.

I knew and old and very experienced teacher (much loved by her pupils and parents) who convinced all her little charges that she would know whether they were lying by looking at their tongues, which would turn black.

She was very successful in getting the truth out of children!

I think you should place alot of value on telling the truth - praise and even reward her when she tells the truth, even if telling the truth could get her into trouble.

I also think that leaving a packet of chocolate brioches out, even in sight, is too much temptation for most five-year-olds [

Jix, i read through this thread and i can say i don't agree with many of the things written here. I think i know what you mean when you were shocked about the convincing face she gave to you while teling the lie. I do agree a kid on her age will certainly take the cookie and eat it if left on the counter, or even go searching through the drawers for one, but i also expect our DD to admit it if she did such a thing. lies are smth i just can't take easily.
we used to have the same issue with our daughter for more than a year and i am proud to say, she starts to realise what trust means and starts to show guilt on her face when telling a lie. she still does it from time to time but she has now learnt the guilt of such an act, so it's so much easier to spot it on her face, while previously, when she was just 'running for her life' after doing a naughty thing, she felt no remorse so she was indeed very convincing in her lieing. i think it's just about teaching the principle of truth, and the one of loosing trust.
i was desperate at one time, about a year ago, when she started with all the lies (most of the time, probably, just trying to test our limits) but then one day, when she crossed the line pretty badly, i told her i am not talking to her anymore as long as she is not telling the truth. i just don't want to talk to people who lie to me! i would rather talk to gloria (her teddybear) instead, because gloria never lies to me. then i left the room. she came after me and i insisted that i don't trust her for now and if she has something to tell me, better tell gloria, so gloria can tell it to me. it made a huge impact on DD. a few days later she lied again. i told her i know about it (didn't make a joke of it, on the contrary, i was very serious and explained that in our family we DON'T lie to eachother), then she lied again, then again. the next time she came to me (i knew she was telling the truth this time) i refused to listen to her and told her i can't trust her anymore for today (i made sure i set a time limit, and don't make her feel like she is a lier for ever!) she went back to her room. it didn't take her more than 10 minutes to come back and appologies for her lies. and she was really feeling guilty and sorry for what she did.
it won't stop here, i know it, but at least DD is learning that trust is smth valuable and worth working for and lies should not be taken easily. hope this helped a bit.

Just to clarify -- I'd left the brioche in the bread bin... She's the one who left it on the table!!!
And yes of course I don't mind accidents.
I think the reason I was shocked is because the lie was Sooooooooooooo much more convincing than I would have expected.

pmsl - i was thinking about it - i was conjuring up elaborate work related conferences that took a whole week

but fuck it never mind

aww - that sucks about the not going

going with Rhubarb next year sounds good though.

<<<<<<<<would have just gone on both and ignored DH's comments>>>>>>>>>

oh yes I agree with you on that - telling off for something that happened accidentally is a shitty thing to do.

no not going - i am going with rhubarb next year anyway so happy days!

about accidents and lying - i always said " i won't be angry at you for breaking something, but i will be cross for lying. so tell me the truth and lets see what comes of it!"

thats another thing - apart from the food thing - that gets on my tits - shouting at a kid for accidentally doing something - now if they hit little sister on the nose with a cricket bat becuase she stole his brioche (that was left on the table ) then fair enough

but accidentally dropped a bowl in the kitchen - deserves at the very very worst " oh dear! pass me the dustpan please and get some shoes on!"

so are you going or not <<<<<<<<<confused>>>>>>>

dh said no - we rowed about it various comments along the lines of " what the fuck is this 1956 - i'm not asking your permission"

and from him " i don't need to articulate it Custy, its simply a fucking pisstake!"

so we eventually both gave up after some good news from BIL regarding something totally unrelated - had a brew and a fag and had done with it!

5 yo DD1 did this today. I had just gone down the stairs with DD2 when DD1 called out to warn me there was broken glass on the stairs. I came back up and there it was on the top step near where she was playing.
To cut a long story short she had broken an (unimportant) old piece of crystal from a chandelier.

She wouldn't admit she'd dropped it even when I said I wouldn't be angry with her for breaking it.
I said 'What's worse - me getting a bit annoyed with you or one of you standing on a bit of sharp broken glass with your bare feet?

In the end she owned up.

I think most of the time when they lie they are just afraid of being told off - so maybe we should try not to be disporportionately angry about things that don't matter...

btw - have you come to a decision about your holiday? I've lost it on threads I'm on.

vive la differance!

you know custardo I usually agree with you as you speak common sense. But I honestly believe by 5yrs old a child is old enough to not touch stuff (including food) that they're not supposed to.

playhouse window - different - thats a lie

its the food thing - ooh look kid - theres some chocolate right in front of you - its mine - dont eat it not bloody likely.

i'm not saying kids don't lie - or there is a fool proof remedy to stop them

but fgs - dont put something in front of them and then tell them not to eat it

but if it was on the table - i wouldn't blame the kid - who could blame the kid - theres yummy stuff right there on the table kid - DONT EAT IT! its right there...right in front of you DONT EAT IT! your FIVE years old - show some restraint FGS, by this ripe old age you should know that you can't just eat yummy stuff left on the table and its absolutely NOT my fault for leaving it on the table right in front of you becuase your five five and should know better

bollocks.

you leave biscuits, brioche, sugar flavoured bum fluff in the reach of a five year old - they will eat it - so move it - common sense

a chair - good grief that's FAR to complicated - pots, pans, tins, packs of flour/sugar etc, Anything that can be stacked used to do DS1 at 5yrs old

Oddly DS2 (my biggest and hungriest eater) - will stand and stare at food and not touch it for HOURS (and he's 5 1/2)

Ah but Custy, what about when it's not food ...what about when it's a broken playhouse window and she has no recollection of how it could have ever possibly have been broken?? ...

you see - food always goes in the top cupboards in my house - always has done - and the fridge is too tall for a 5 year old.

so should my 5 year old gather up a chair from the living room - drag to kitchen - stand on it - stand on kitchen side - upen cupboard - find the food - open packet - then eat it.....i would be wondering whether is was actually a good idea to leave them on their own in the kitchen for so long. y'know considering the inherant dangers 'n' schniz

<<<<decides to stay out of the main of this thread because of her DS1 >>>>>

Your daughter has been caught in some untruths, that doesn't mean she is a liar. I think you should be careful not to catastrophise and not to let her think that you now see her as being deceitful and a liar.

Telling lies to get out of trouble is a very normal stage and quite distinct from telling unprovoked lies to get others into trouble or to spin fantasies.

Just be calm about it, let her know that you know when she's lied and try not to assume that every answer is a lie. There will be times when she hasn't done what you think she's done and if you assume she's lying you'll damage the trust between you.

Yes it's good to get it sorted, but she's very young and lying at this stage is not an indicator of a deceitful personality.

lol Custardo - what do you do when your 5yr old then goes HUNTING for the said hidden packet when you're out of earshot???

i am of the opinion that if you leave yummy food within the reach of a five year old - your mad to expect them not to nick it

so its your fault missus - put the packet safely away next time

"Cheer yourself up by remembering that lying is a sign of intelligence"

Well, if thats true, I'm signing my six-year-old up for MENSA right now!!

The child can't lie straight in bed, I swear!

I'm hoping it's an age-thing. She really could tell you that black is white, and then prove it. As for the doe-eyed look, oh yes, she has that down to a tee

I must admit that I too find it hard. I've also let her off several misdemeanors lately because she actually has told the truth, and just when I though I was getting through to her, she goes and lies to me again
Part of it with my dd is that she feels her life isn't 'interesting' enough, and that she needs to embellish somewhat. Kids eh?

<sigh>

"Serious and accomplished liar" is actually the kind of language you hear in courtrooms, not in kitchens.

Noonki has already said what I was just going to say - she is only a little girl and she is trying it on. She is not quite sophisticated enough to know that you would have checked the packet or that you really would just know that she was lying. She thought she could get away with it (or perhaps she thought it was no biggie) and got caught out. When dc do this to me, I tease the truth out of them. Make it into a joke and get them laughing.

She is not as calculating as you think.

i think the way you talk about this has probably impacted on why she tells lies. "I caught her out when she was 2"

"I then caught her red-Handed" she's "deceitful"

She ate a chocolate brioche without permission. If you brand toddlers as deceitful when they lack a little self control, or show natural curiosity (sand in the sitting room) then I'm not surprised she cannot admit it. I think I would lie too in her position.

Agree with Noonki, calling a five year old a serious and accomplished liar is quite strong stuff, much better to be light-hearted. It was only a brioche.

She's very young still.

My DSS lied alot from about 5 - 11, I think he said things a few times and then believed them to be true so in effect was no longer lying iyswim.

Always give her an opporunity to get out of a lie. Instead of saying 'are you telling the truth' or 'don't lie' say 'are you teasing me, cheeky?' or 'ohhh porky pies' so she can backdown.
DSS is now 13 and apart from trying to wriggle out of homework he is pretty honest.

Just keep picking her up on it. And don't be too hard as she will be afraid to speak to you.

y y, I've been convinced too. The first time. With the first child. We only found out 6 months later that we'd been comprehensively had -- iirc a toy aeroplane had got broken, we were pretty damn sure it was her, but she denied it so vehemently and so plausibly that we ended up feeling like total lowlifes for not believing her. And then months later we were moving some furniture and found the broken bits stuffed behind her chest of drawers. It was a real eye-opener, and taught me never to underestimate how plausibly they can lie. She's 14 now, and pretty trustworthy and reliable.

On the upside, it means they're bright, they have a theory of mind and is trying to see what they can do with it. I think they also lie because they know they've done something wrong (which is a good thing to realise) and panic that they're going to be discovered. Then having lied they realise they've backed themselves into a corner they can't get out of, and the lie takes on a life of its own. They'll virtually never back down once it's got to that stage. You can occasionally get lucky and call their bluff by asking the question in a way that presumes they have done it, eg. "Where did you put the wrapper after you ate the Twix that was in the cupboard?" or "Can you tell me where your brother's playmobil knight is now?"

Really, chill about it. Remind her that we all do silly things sometimes, or realise that we've made a mistake, and the best way of dealing with it is to tell people so that they can help you sort it out rather than trying to keep it a secret inside you.

Sorry .. was replying to first post of the Boy who cried Wolf story, when all your other replies came in. Thank you all so much.
Frogs- love your response. It's great to hear from people with older children, and you're right.. there's no point blowing this up into a huge confrontation.
I guess it's just been a shock to me, because I didn't expect her to be SO good at it (even given her record). She totally had me fooled.

I agree about sorting it out now Jix - it's something that you can choose to tacitly allow or put your foot down about.

I don't imagine that my dcs never lie or never will lie, but they absolutely know it's a big deal.

There have been situations which I have let go with something like "there is more to this situation than you are telling me but I am not going to pursue this now".. Which is a bit of a cop out but still lets them know that you "know"!

Mine really don't lie so much any more. They know that if they tell the truth they will get "thank you for telling the truth. I'm still extremely cross about XYZ but I appreciate you telling the truth..."

I think Frogs gave some really good advice. Keep bringing it up that you need to be able to trust her.

The problem is, whether we like it or not, people lie all the time. Does my bum look big in this? For example. But that doesn't breach trust.

I know it seems far from possible as you are still reeling. But have you considered making it a joke - what a silly cookie you have been, how could you think that mummy wouldn't know? My dd1 (aged 4.5) that works with. She admits it straight away and I thank her for telling the truth. Then do the serious bit. DD2 that woudl not work for though (aged 3) - so I do the more serious bit about the boy who cried wolf and how important it is to tell the truth. And you lose out on things if you tell mummy lies etc.

yes we've done that story, and she always nods very sagely and wisely.
she's just a bit calculating I think, and that scares me.
it's a horrible thing to find that there's something so intrinsic in your child that you don't like.
I'd almost prefer it if she was flat-out naughty but honest. At least then you can talk it through and sort it out.
Here it's hard to see any resolution.
You're right though - I can't go in heavy handed because she'll just continue to deny and deny.
She's actually been a very convincing liar from a very young age. I first caught her out when she was about 2. There was sand in the sitting room and I asked both kids what had happened. Both denied having anything to do with it... my son (who was about 4) turned bright red and couldn't look me in the eye, and seemed guilty as hell. My daughter though was calm as a cucumber and totally convincing. I believed her then too.. but then later caught her red handed!! All that's happened since then is that she's got more sophisticated.
I'm desperate to get this sorted out before she becomes a teenager!!! Yes.. I know .. I'm over-reacting now, but still .. I'm worried.
Is being deceitful something people really grow out of?

Oh all of mine can lie for England if the need arises, and have done in situations like the one you describe. They're now much older and no in juvenile detention units yet, and by and large they're trustworthy. It's not a sign that your dd has a major character defect. Cheer yourself up by remembering that lying is a sign of intelligence.

Don't freak about it, or kill yourself looking for proof. It won't be the last time she does it, however you react. Huge confrontations are utterly counterproductive -- she almost certainly won't crack and admit it regardless of what you say or do, so if you go down that route you end up with increasingly hysterical questions and denials and the whole thing just escalates.

Just say, "Oh dear, I thought I could trust you not to help yourself without asking. What a shame you couldn't manage it. Next time I'm afraid you won't be able to take your own bun, I'll have to keep them safe somewhere so that no-one can take one without asking." You can reinforce it intermittently by making comments about how you trust her when she does XYZ, and how good it is that she's a big girl who can remember to do what you've said and not to do silly things.

Really, that's all it takes. She's very small, and to expect a 5yo to resist temptation when it's put in her way is optimistic to put it mildly.

I 2nd the boy who cried wolf comment.

I think DD was about 5ish when I introduced the concept and I often bring it out again when she's trying to claim a sick day "Remember the boy who cried wolf"...

I think (hope) I've drummed it into DD that no matter what anybody tells her or how bad it is she must always tell me the truth.. I know she fibs about little things but I think that;s all part of growing up.

I have convinced ds1, also 5, that mothers have a special magic that allows us to just "know" certain things. And, to a certain extent that is true

You need to regain the upper hand so she knows that you know she's lying. Otherwise it will spin totally out of control.

I would say very gently, almost to myself, "someone has eaten this brioche, I wonder who it is, I hope nobody would lie about it because lying is much worse than just taking a brioche, if someone tells me they have taken it I won't be cross, we'll just have a chat..." etc etc, then hope it does the trick.

I have let my 5yo DD believe that mummies "just know" things in order to discourage lying. Sometimes an arch raising-of-eyebrows, followed by long eye contact and a prolonged silence can provoke guild-induced confessions.

My DD has spun some shocking tales, which I have swallowed hook line and sinker and which have got me into some embarrassing situations. I am now totally clear with dcs that lying --pisses me off-- makes me cross more than almost anything - and sometimes I have let real crime go unpunished in order to reward the truth telling that followed.

Not easy at all, good luck! Most importantly, make clear that you know what's going on...

Have you told her about the story of the boy who cried wolf?

All you can do is explain why it's good to tell the truth and it will sink in eventually. It's probably just a phase, I wouldn't be too hard on her.

My 5 year old daughter is an accomplished and serious liar. It's come to a head this evening, when she asked if she could have another chocolate brioche. I said no, but when I went through to the kitchen the packet was next to her on the kitchen table, where she'd been doing some colouring.
She assured me, serious-faced and wide-eyed, that she hadn't taken one. I believed her! Then my son came through asking for a biscuit and I gave him one. She asked for one too.. and a sliver of doubt entered my head about the brioche.
I say: "Hang on.. I can check if you had a brioche by seeing how many are left in the packet!" and I pick it up.
At this point, she breaks into hysterical crying, screaming that she didn't take one.
I look in the packet and there are only 4 left, so there is one that's unaccounted for.
I'm furious but also shocked at how convincing she was.
She's gone to bed, hysterically claiming her innocence; I don't believe her but don't have definitive proof.
Do I just drop it now?
If I do, is it just showing her that she can get away with lying.
I want to encourage her to tell the truth, and in the past have even assured her that there won't be a punishment if she just tells the truth.
She's never cracked and has always point blank denied any charges.
This latest incident has been pretty blatant though hasn't it?
Any advice pleeeeaaase!!