Mumsnet Talk

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

i'm not a child psychologist, but did ma in child dev and am spec needs teacher.

leaving to cry breaks the trust in mother and baby in that the baby realises that you won't come if he cries this makes him feel insecure in his ability to communicate and the mother feels insecure in being able to trust her own instincts with the baby, because she doesn't respond when the baby cries even though she wants to.

its effective because it only takes three days for the trust to break down

This is the theory from attatchment parenting believers.

However, it may be that cio methods in turn mean their babies are more resilient and independant.

i suppose it can't be proven as there are so many variables.
everything is a balance.
I am totally against cio but my 10 mth ds wakes every 45 mins and I have pnd so I am even considering it. But I really don't think its good

There will be many opinions on this thread. Don't slay me , this is just mine and I am just a lowly mumsnetter and these are theories thats all.

Neither am I a child psych but I am a salt in field of SN and studying for an MSc in Behaviourism.

It's not the crying that is controlled but the response to the crying. Cruel, dangerous and unnecessary in children under 12-18 months. After that,if used intelligently in context of the child's life it can be useful.Most people do it wrongly however.

Kalo - you don't have to leave your 10 month old DS to cry it out.

Controlled crying is different and it might work, you could try it.

You could do it in the day at first, at nap time, if you can't face the idea of hearing him cry in the middle of the night.

His problem is that he doesn't know how to settle himself back to sleep when he stirs in the night.

Thanks Kalo, I realise it is a touchy subject - I would never slay you!

What does cio stand for tho?

I can see what you are saying about the trust and it makes sense, but if that is true why are my babies (who I have used CC on) so happy and loving towards me if the trust has broken down. They adore me I can tell . They are nearly 7mths old (twins). My sister has used it too and her kids are just adorable and surely don't now, at 4 and 6, trust her?

My opinion is that rushing to a baby all the time, rocking them to sleep etc creates problems with self-soothing and is why many babies wake in the night. That's just my opinion and is based on no evidence, just my instinct . Don;t slay me!

Hi Moondog, thanks for your reply. x-posted there. IYE, how do you try to get a baby to, say, go to sleep at bedtime if they are just not doing it?

That is when I used CC. I was trying to get them to go to bed at 7pm but they would cry and cry so we'd get them up, let them sleep in their chairs downstairs, feed them etc. Sitting with them by their cot made no difference. What can you do if you are not going to use CC?

As I said,it's cruel to use such methods on small babies.

on an academic level I think it would be very difficult to devise a clinical trial that would accurately and ethically prove or disprove any connection between CC and any long-term effects.

On a personal level, I know for a fact that leaving DS1 for cry for 20 minutes one night, then 5 minutes the next, when he was six months old meant that I was a far better parent than had been for the previous 2 months when he was waking up every 45 minutes. In fact had I left him to continue on waking me up I think my inability to parent effectively would have been far more damaging.

i know he needs some kind of sleep training I think you're right I will start with naps which are also impossible. but I can't think clearly right now.

Neen - that is the theory with leaving to cry (cry it out)

Not sure what diff is with controlled crying.
but its a theory, Im suree your dcs do love you of course.

I'm a first time mum and I am making many mistakes.
This is just what I remember from my studies and what I'm coming to realise is that parenting has many many facets and its the combination and the whole picture that counts

Yes Noonki and therein lies the rub, you might say that any 'damage' could be counter to the positive attention you can give to play and care at other times.

I think noonki's post sums up the problems very well. First, there's no ethical way of determining all of this. The studies done (on those poor Romanian children) only show that prolonged periods of crying and lack of response are damaging to children.

Second, for some parents there is no other tolerable alternative - they simply can't manage unless they do it. And this is a consequence of modern life: we're so isolated, living, for the most part, in couples, that if we can't cope, then that's it: what else can you do? In our past, I imagine, large family groups would have been around to take the baby, rock it, whatever, when mum had had enough. Certainly, in prehistorical times, it would have been dangerous, I imagine, to leave a baby crying on its own (even if that were possible - people would've lived in one-room/cave environments).

I, for one, don't believe that always rocking a baby to sleep prevents it learning how to sleep on its own. In native cultures around the world, babies are rarely left on their own to sleep, and tend always to be in a sling with mum. I don't see millions of Africans or Asians struggling to sleep at night...

Not a professional but I have never left either of mine to cry and never could and they are both excellent sleepers (lucky, I know!) and have been from very young. This makes me think there is probably an element of genetics/luck in it so equally, perhaps there are some babies who is will not work on and it would be damaging. It just seems wrong to me to leave a small baby to cry and goes against all my instincts - but easy for me to say, I know. obviously there does come a point where allowing the parents to get some sleep is probably better in the long run.

I don't think its cruel to use a controlled crying method on babies who are weaned and eating well, getting plenty of milk, are well rested during the day, are not too hot or too cold and not ill or teething.

I did cc with my DD when she was 10 months old and my DS at around the same age.

No lack of trust from either of them towards me, I am quite certain.

the trust thing is more they don't trust themselves to be able to communicate their desires effectively that leads to feelings of insecurity in themselves, not necessarily in their relationships with their care givers

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It was when I had started to wean and felt that the DTs were definitely not hungry (six months old) that I used it. Always thought they were hungry before as doubted my supply a bit!

Allowing the baby to cry. Not making the baby cry. It was always my instinct that my babies were crying because they were frustrated at being awake when they'd much rather be asleep.

Controlled crying worked a treat for my two babies. I didn't find it particularly stressful because they didn't cry very much! It was not a long drawn out painful process.

Starlight, cos 7pm is bedtime! And because I am the parent and I am in charge. So if I say 7pm is bedtime then it is. Not saying that is right it is just my opinion and my parenting style.

Actually, since I have used CC I am MORE likely to go to them when they cry because I know there must be something up. They are so good at going to bed and staying there now that if one of them is upset I know they are not just trying to have me on.

Someone said something before about going against your instinct when you leave your baby to cry but I didn't feel it was against my instinct. I knew they were tired, I knew they were better off asleep than awake and I knew that leaving them to cry themselves to sleep was the best way (IMO) to deal with it. They were just having me on before, trying to get me to bring them downstairs when I didn't want to. Life is so much more chilled now. They chatter away to themselves in their cots when they wake in the middle of the night, then they go back to sleep. At 7pm after their last feed, they just go into their cots and go to sleep. Bliss.

How can you possibly believe a 6 mo can be having you on?
Can't think of anything more to say - this poster is so fundamentally different from me and it scares me that there are people asround who think this way.

I agree with you Katch that I don't believe a 6mo old baby is trying to manipulate its mother in any way...just wants more cuddles! However, as a mother of twins, I also know that sometimes (i.e. when you are doing the bedtime routine on your own) that rocking two babies to sleep is logistically impossible. I fed mine to sleep for quite a while, but soon got to the point when they wouldn't always drop off to sleep during a feed. As Neenz said, I knew they were tired and not hungry and so I felt it was ok to let them cry themselves to sleep for a few nights. The good thing is that they didn't really cry, just whinged a bit, which I still hated every second of, but they now go to bed happily and wake up rested, as do I.

I think that every mother has an instinct that tells you whether what you are doing is right or wrong, and Neenz it sounds as though this method has worked for you and your LOs. Don't see anything wrong with it IMO. But I'm not a psychologist .

I am quite baffled as to how you think your 6 month dts can be "having you on".

I used cc on dd1 (now 7).

She is the WORST sleeper out of my 4 dc.

I now co-sleep with my 16 month dts.

We are all much happier.

Cc made me go against all my instincts. I only did it because I was a first time mum, lacking in confidence and my hv said I should.

I still feel upset and guilty- it is torturing babies for parents convenience.

Imo, babies sleep pattens change rapidly, and by the time they are 18-24 months, most are sleeping normally without the need for cc.

Neenztwinz I am not a child psychologist but I do know one and I suspect she would support your approach, because she was supportive of mine (which is similar). I never used CC but I certainly do not think that leaving a child to cry, when that child is safe, warm, fed etc is the end of the world. I also knew that sometimes my DD needed to cry to wind down.

I sometimes think that when people read "CC" they think the child is being left cold, wet and screaming for hours. Quite possibly that could lead to a loss of trust, but a few minutes of crying when the child is dry, fed, safe, can hear that you are in the house etc is a different matter I think.

Bty way,

I think you are right about instinct.

If a baby is genuinely tired, you've done everything for it, and know it wants to sleep, then by all means put it down and see what happens.

But this is not cc, cos you are responding to what you think the baby needs, and trusting your own instincts.

I did CC as my baby would not take daytime naps even though he was incredibly tired. His crying was because he ws tired and frustrated because didn't know how to get himself off to sleep without being walked around/rocked to sleep (my fault entirely and something I won't do if I have another child). It only took 2 days and by the end of day 2 I was only going to him once after 5 minutes. I never left him to cry for more than 15 minutes and he stopped crying the second I picked him up so there was obviously nothing wrong. He then started having fantstic naps in the morning and afternoon of up to 2 hours each and woke up in a great mood, playful and happy. Prior to this he was always crying and irritable and had really worn me down. I don't think he doesn't trust me. He's the happiest baby on the planet! As another poster said 'how can a 6 month old be having you on?'. Well how can a 2 month old lose trust?

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