4 yo DD being shunned at school... I'm getting tearful over it! Anyone help?

[CorduroyAngel]

My DD started school last Sept and it seemed ok at first. It's a catholic school so the other kids are very well behaved but we're not a member of any church. I thought I was imagining things when the teacher seemed to ignore her, but now I've noticed all the other girls have special friends and hang around in small groups and when DD tries to befriend them they ignore her. She's been getting very upset and moody. I think I've damaged her as I had post natal depression after DS and shouted a lot. Please help I'm getting so upset myself about it...

[Heated]

Have you spoken to the teacher about your concerns?

[pedilia]

Have you talked to DD? Is this how you are perceiving things or how she feels about it?

Could you try talking to her teacher? Or invite another girl round for tea or soemthing similar?

[intravenouscoffee]

Firstly, I'm absolutely sure you haven't 'damaged' your DD by shouting at her. My mum had PND and was convinced of the same thing but I can assure you that I never remember her shouting a lot or feeling anything other than totally loved - I'm sure your DD feels the same way. Secondly, I think you need to go and speak to DD's teacher about this. If you're worried that she's part of the problem rather than the solution then make an appointment to see the Head and talk it through. Have you spoken to your DD about why she's feeling sad?

[intravenouscoffee]

Sorry, lots of x posting. Looks lke we're all thinking along the same lines

[CorduroyAngel]

Hi, yes she mentions it all the time as it's making her so unhappy... I couldn't quite believe it until I saw it myself... kids I'd had round here just blanking her. She gets so desperately unhappy when I pick her up on anything now that I feel I'm on eggshells.

I spoke to her teacher but she said DD was popular and she hadn't noticed anything. After that day I saw her again and she said DD couldn't remember anything being wrong. Trouble is, I went through a similar thing at school as I had a lot of issues at home but I thought we were doing ok...

[intravenouscoffee]

If her class teacher isn't being any help then I really think you should see the head. If you've seen girls blanking DD, she's upset about it all the time and her class teacher can't identify a problem then something isn't right.

[CorduroyAngel]

I know, IC, but I could barely tell the teacher without feeling like I was going to burst into tears, so I don't relish seeing the Head. DD tells me that when she tries to play with the ones she likes, the other girls don't let her. From witnessing her with the others she just seems so different. Shy, moody, easily gives up... I've had such trouble coping with her challenging behaviour in the last few years that I've even wondered if she has a diagnosable condition

[neolara]

Hmm, yes we've been having the same problem with our DD. It's very upsetting. This is what I think - and I've given it a lot of thought over the last little while!

Firstly I would go in and have a proper chat with the teacher. Try to find out exactly what is going on. The teacher should be able to tell you what the problems are. It's really difficult for us as parents to know, because we're not there. I think there are two main things that are important to find out.

Firstly: how your DD is behaving. For example, does she initiate with others and what happens when she initiates? Do other children initiate contact with her? How does she respond. What is she like when she plays with others? Can she share, take turns, negotiate? Does she always want to lead etc? Is she doing anything obviously wrong that annoys the others? Is she just not included or is she actively rejected? You may be able to identify particular problem areas that you or the school could work on e.g. initiating successfully.

However, I think teachers can over-emphasise the importance of individual difficulties and social problems always need to be seen, and dealt with, within a social context, so secondly, you need to find out about the social classroom environment. For example, are the dynamics of the group such that few children in her class would be willing to be her friends? This couldl happen if the groups really tightly formed, if your child has very different interest to most of the others of if there is a particular dominant child who may have have taken a dislike to your DD. Also, I think it would be important to find out what kind of work the teacher has been doing with the class around friendships. How often do they explicitly talk about friendships and social skills in the class. What steps do they take to promote friendly behaviour in the class etc.

I think discussing the environment is really important because any social problems should be addressed by involving others. For example, a child may be reluctant to initiate contact with others because they may have learned that when they do, they are met with rejection. There is absolutely no point simply encouraging this child to initiate more because they are likely to get the same response. The teacher would have to engineer a situation involving other children so that when the child asks to join in, the child's is accepted by the others. This can be done in lots of ways e.g. talking to the whole class about what it feels like to not be allowed to play, making all children play with someone new for ten mins that breaktime, giving your child jobs to do with very friendly child so they can get to know each other better etc.

By the way, I think it's massively unlikely that your PND has anything much to do with this. Please don't beat yourself up about it. Get over to the school and try to get them to come up with a plan of action.

[CorduroyAngel]

many thanks for that, Neolara, I'm sorry to hear you've also got a similar problem. I'm way too emotional to be able to deal with this objectively. DD has now given up initiating and I want to nip this in the bud now because it's getting into a circular pattern that she won't be able to break from. What happened when you approached the school? What behaviour did you think was contributing to the issue with your DD? x

[gigglewitch]

as others have said, your PND isn't likely to be anything to do with it, but when you are feeling down yourself then everything feels like your fault. I've had [got] pnd too and feeling tired, irritable and overwhelmed is the biggest part of it for me. For you, try to stop feeling like you caused it, but take the control because you can make a difference to start something positive.
why not see anyone at the school who you feel happy approaching (head, her class teacher, another teacher) and see whether they have any sort of "buddy" system that they can put into action? lots of schools do, as you wouldn't believe how many lo's don't seem to 'know how' to make friends, if you see what i mean.
figure it all out on here (cos mumsnetters are fab) and then see what you can do to start the ball rolling. don't think anyone has a magic wand, but things really can be sorted as long as the school are on to it.

[intravenouscoffee]

Sounds like great advice from neolara. I'm not in the same situation (as a parent) but have lots of experience of Infant Schools and most are really supportive and keen to help LO's settle in. Hopefully you'll be able to work something out together and help your DD. This is obviously really upsetting you as well as your DD and any good teacher will realise that and do everything they can to sort it out. Also, I wouldn't worry about seeing the Head - my best friend is a head teacher at a primary school and can't believe the parents are nervous about coming to see her Really sorry to post and run - will check in tomorrow and see how you're feeling. Please try not to blame yourself, I'm sure you're a great mum

[CorduroyAngel]

Thanks gigglewitch. The worst part is, I don't understand why DD doesn't reply to others when they speak to her sometimes. I've seen kids say Hello and she just looks away. DH says of course they're going to ignore her if she ignores them. The school has a buddy system which worked for a while because she likes some of the girls in year 4, but they seem to have rejected her too just lately. I've tried asking the other mums if their DDs would come to tea, but so far they're all too busy with the other girls. Am I blowing this out of proportion? I'm sure it won't just 'go away'. I'll try again with the school but they do seem to do a lot concerning social relationships. Many thanks for all of you who've replied so far x

[CorduroyAngel]

Thanks IC... x

[gigglewitch]

Just wondered, are you worrying about something like your DD having difficulties with social interaction? again, the teachers should be able to help if there really is an issue there. not wanting to put ideas in your head / worry you or anything.
how good is she at understanding facial expressions (happy, sad, puzzled faces)?

the other thing is - does she do anything out of school, like swimming, dancing or whatever? She is still really young to be hunting out "special" friends, and just doing a hobby with other children might help her.

[neolara]

The teacher was very helpful but she needed a bit of a nudge to see the the impact of the environment.

I am pretty convinced that in my DD's case it is mostly to do with a slightly odd class set up (tightly formed groups that were already established when my DD joined the class, siblings and cousins who play together, children who played together out of school etc). Basically there was no-one left for my DD to hang out with. Also, some of the kids have been telling her they can't play with them so I think she has pretty much given up initiating. I saw this happen at least 4 times in the first half hour on the first day she spent at the nursery. She was initiating in an appropriate way but unfortuantely she just picked some pretty unfriendly children! She doesn't really have difficulties getting on with other children in other contexts but at nursery it seems to have become a problem.

Ive talked to the teacher about it a bit. She has said that they are going to do more stuff about friendship with the whole class and she is going to get DD to do things in small groups with others. I'm going to keep on gently prodding each week to make sure she carries on mixing the children up and talking about friendships. So far she has been very responsive. I have also encouraged DD to initiate more with children where I think she will get a positive response. I did a bit of role play with her and I wrote a very short story about her asking some girls if she could join in their game and them saying yes.

I think it will just be a long term thing to be honest and I'll just have to keep chipping away at it. I know what you mean about feeling very emotional though.

[CorduroyAngel]

Hi Gigglewitch. Yes! She only made one friend at nursery and that was a little boy. She's acts quite tomboyish and they used to run off down the street together and I think she really misses him. (He went to a different school). She seems good at understanding faces, which is probably why she understands that they don't want to include her. I've spoken to her about being friendly, and said things like "you'd want to play with someone who was friendly and chatty wouldn't you? Rather than someone miserable" but it doesn't seem to help. At a class party today the girls were calling to each other and making a fuss when anyone arrived. Apart from DD

[pedilia]

Can I just add, DS1 was having problems with one girl in his class (not quite the same but you may find the following useful)
I spoke to his teacher expressing my concerns, he had noticed the problems and had actually changed the groups within the class. He felt it was important that when doing group work he decided the gropus according to the particular personality of each child, the girl in question is quite loud and outgoing so he put her in a group with quieter children and so forth

May be worth discusiing with her teacher how she interacts in class with other children and what the teacher can do to help that interaction

[neolara]

Just seen the bit about your DD not responding when children say hello to her. I wouldn't automatically think that is do to any medical problem. I someone who had previously ignored me said hello to me, I might feel pretty fed up with them and confused about their motive. I would not necessarily want to give them a big smile and say hello back. Sometimes seemingly odd behaviour is a very rational response to an extremely unpleasant situation.

[gigglewitch]

neolara you talk heaps of sense. fab post.

[CorduroyAngel]

Neolara I know what you mean about tightly knit classes... all the mums seem to have known each other for years. It's must be so horrible for DDs to be told they can't join in. DD has started saying she doesn't want to go to school and tbh I really wouldn't want to force her. She seemed to have same issue at nursery but I thought it was just her age as she did have her boy friend.

[CorduroyAngel]

Agree Gigglewitch, Neolara has hit the button. Thank you so much everyone for your messages of support... much needed right now. Think I need a dose of Roseanne to lighten me up x

[CorduroyAngel]

Pedilia, I'm going to try to get teacher on her own (last time I think DD overheard and it made her feel worse). If not, I'll try the Head but think I'll need to gee myself up a bit first!! I'm not the most outgoing person myself but certainly not the most shy. Just overly weepy right now.

[neolara]

It's just horrible, isn't it. I really would go back and talk to the teacher. Put the ball in their court, explain how upset your DD is and get them to come up with a plan. Then suggest that you meet up with them in a week or two to see how things are going. I really wouldn't let it go. I'm not convinced things like this spontaneously resolve themselves and even if they did, it might take a few months or years. There is absolutely heaps the school can do if they take it seriously. You absolutely have to get them to start changing the behaviour of the others in the class - it sounds like some of them are being absolutely vile to her. If it gets really bad, there is a thing called Circle of Friends which can work absolutely brilliantly to encourage friendships of excluded children. The school may need to involve their ed psych to move forward with it, but it really can change lives.

[CorduroyAngel]

Hugs for the advice! I've heard of Circle of Friends... what is it (if you have time to elaborate)

[CorduroyAngel]

hang on, obvious really, just Googled it! Seems a great idea. DD ran up to one of the year 4 girls last week, threw her arms round her and kissed her over and over. The girl just stood there with her arms by her side and looked embarrassed, which I can understand. Nearly killed me to see it.