Stroppy, demanding three yr old - is it a stage? Fine for others, not for me!

[cookiemonstress]

Just wondering if anyone has any tips for dealing with stroppy 3 year olds.. DD1 is just 3. Always been feisty and hit terrible twos somewhere around 13 months. There are various potty training and sleep challenges, at nursery and with grandparents she is co-operative and engaging and a delight to be around by all accounts but she is the opposite with me . When I am off with her she is super-demanding, irritable and whiny and I have just started to see signs of deliberate naughtiness as opposed to 'impulsive' responses.. in general really hard work. It ends up in a spiral of me loosing the plot with her and shouting then feeling guilty (and then feeling more guilty again when back at work). She is generally fearless in all respects. The naughty step doesn't seem to work, she doesn't have any strong attachment to toys etc that can be 'confiscated', any consequence I give in response to her behaviour is met with a teenage response of 'don't care' mixed with a bit of 'bring it on' style attitude. My only 'disciplinary' option appears to be to put her in her room. Is this just a stage/development thing does anyone know?? I work 4 days a week but I do my best to give her 1:1 time everyday (story, puzzles etc).. She has a younger sister who is in comparison very laid back and is 16 months and has just started to 'be interesting' in terms of walking and talking to the rest of the world. I feel like my relationship with DD1 is degenerating and it's a cycle of looking foward all week to being with them on my day off and then feeling terrible when days off are spent with me screeching at her defiance.
The potty training issue is a refusal to poo anywhere but in nappy or pants (she isn't constipated) further exacerbated by an early bowel movement that happens at 5 am every day. Pings out of bed at least once a night goes to bed 7.30 ish and wakes at 5 and is grumpy but persuading her to sleep in day to catch up is a challenge..

any thoughts greatly welcomed!

[nailpolish]

yes this is perfectly normal.

i too put my dds in their room when naughty. its seems to work and that why i do it.

when tantrum is happeneing just IGNORE. step over them as they writhe on the floor and ignore.

it doesnt last forever - my dd1 is now 5 and its a brilliant age. her 3 yr old sister however ...

[pendulum]

yes my 3 yo nearly 4) is a nightmare at times.

similarly, naughty step doesn't work. We ignore tantrums/ whining (move to another room so can't even see it) and punish deliberate naughtiness (fibbing, throwing, hitting) with removal of privileges. Have sometimes stopped en route to lunch at her fav pizza restaurant and turned back as punishment. Harsh, but necessary IMO.

[MrsMattie]

No advice, but can offer some sisterly solidarity - we are going through something very similar with our just 3 yr old DS. He sounds exactly like your DD. I'm finding it really tiring and frustrating at the moment, and get upset that the only two options I seem to have right now are to lose my cool with him (I get upset, he gets upset, we all lose out), or to let bad behaviour go when my gut instinct is that it should be challenged. Interestingly, he also had the 'poo' issue for a little while. I told him that big boys and girls didn't poo in their pants, only babies did (playing to his desire to be 'a big boy') and it really worked (took a few days and a few reminders from me). I know you're supposed to ignore accidents when potty training, but it got to the stage where it wasn't accidental, iyswim.

Await responses with interest! x

[scattyspice]

I'd say ease off the discipline and punishments.
Try to steer round trouble (avoid situations where conflict likely, distract when trouble brewing).
If something kicks off try to nip it in the bud and get on with the day (don't let situations escalate or hold grudges).
Have as much fun together as possible. Give her as much choice as possible.
Don't focus on your youngest too much.

I speak from experience.

[nailpolish]

also PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE when dd does a good job or is kind to siblings or whatever. htey love it

[cookiemonstress]

Hi
Thanks for speedy feedback! Great to know that others are in the same boat and that it is (fingers crossed) a phase! .. Supernanny makes it look way too easy in my opinion! I find it really demoralising because i like to think we are doing the right things and make lots of effort to be consistent, the right kinds of attention etc but I feel like i've turned into one of the harassed-looking shrieky parents I swore I'd never be! I know shouting has no impact other than me having a big headache but sometimes feel really powerless in terms of other options. Unfortunately our house is very open plan so it's not always easy to go into another room hence why I try to remove her to her room. I end up feeling guilty because in some way I wonder if she is like this because i work and her week feels a bit choppy-changey.. But if you have to work, what are you supposed to do?
The poo thing is another problem altogether. We have incentivised it in every possible way including the whole 'big girl' thing but I am starting to think that it might be more physiological. She is the opposite to constipated and never seems to get any warning. I have a sinking feeling that my option is to get up before she wakes (pre 5am) and put her straight on the toilet as she wakes..great!

[orangina]

I think scattyspice is spot on. I too have challenging dd (nearly3) who is a delight at nursery and with grandparents etc, and (I think) delights in tryinig to wind me (working mother) up. Cue shouting, negative atmosphere etc. I have put a household ban on shouting (she was shouting when I was shouting), and try to find the positive in everything, whilst not letting the really deliberate rubbish behaviour go unnoticed.
I do struggle with it though..... .

[orangina]

ps: could you put her in a night nappy until you can sort out her poo timetable? If you are up every morning at 5am, no wonder you arwe a bit shouty, I find I am definitely less patient when I'm tired (for tired, read more tired than usual.... )

[MrsMattie]

cookie - I'm at home most of the time and my son is just like your DD. Don't let the guilt-monster creep in! It is not your work situation! x

[orangina]

Thanks so much for saying that MrsMattie.... I was trying to say it like a mantra last night as dd was being a little * to me, but not to her (much more hard working) father....

It is totally heartbreaking when she says (I'm missing you when you're at work mama..." though

[Oblomov]

I understand. Ds is just 4. Sometimes the last year has felt like a vicious circle.

[MrsMattie]

Oh, what we do to ourselves@orangina! I often have creeping doubts that perhaps my son is acting up because he has been 'spoilt' by having me at home giving him my undivided attention . At least we know that we're all pretty much in the same boat no matter what our work/home situation is...

[BirdyArms]

You could be writing about my ds1, almost 3. Everything you describe is the same although we don't have the potty training issues. But ds1 is also quite violent towrds his brother, 12mths, starting from accidentally on purpose pushing him in the morning to full on hitting as he gets more tired. I have to really shout at him to get any kind of reaction and end up feeling bad. I will watch this thread with interest - feel like I need to rethink the way I deal with him.

[cookiemonstress]

Thanks to everyone! good to know that it happens across the board so thanks to MrsMattie for making a working mum feel less guilty!
I am definately going to try and stop shouting because i can hardly expect model behaviour if i'm in full banshee mode. Definately need to do more praising and possibly learn to feel comfortable in not giving (angelic) baby sister less attention because am sure the green eyed monster has entered dd1 world.
We do have nighttime nappy and am going to continue until poo situation resolves itself!

[orangina]

mrsmattie

[scattyspice]

Cookie, if your two are anything like mine the youngest will hit this stage too at some point, then the oldest will seem like the angelic one.
DS loves the fact that DD is now always in trouble not him.

[OneHandedTypist]

Another mom 2 threenager here. Mine is a complete control freak, always telling rest of family where 2 sit, what 2 do, etc.

[cookiemonstress]

yes, I forgot to mention the control freakery...sitting at my desk at work can seem funny but not when there are massive flids because we are not sitting in the right place, providing drinks in right colour cup

Do you think having a threenager means they have got the teen rebellion out of their system early? Mind you, at least in their teens they hopefully won't be getting up at 5 every morning!

[HairyToe]

Agree with Mrs Mattie - I am a SAHM and my DD went through some right humdinger 'stages' when she was 3 (the phrase 'super demanding, irritable and whiny' sounds particularly familiar). Meanwhile DD2 is 18 months and is already shaping up to becoming a 'challenge and an opportunity' (ahem). Nothing to do with working mums, everything to do with small children's role in life to test their devoted Mums to distraction. Hang in there!

By the way DD1 4.5 now and gets more reasonable by the day (for now anyway...)

[HairyToe]

What is it about the bl**dy colour thing - DD2 has now started refusing to drink from the blue/green plastic cups so both DDs fight over the pink/yellow/ornage ones. I've just this morning given in and bought some new 'girly' coloured cups to help ease the arguments...

[OneHandedTypist]

Threenager-ness Not an early catharsis, i rekon more like taste of what's 2 come! DS was lovely until 6 wks ago, sigh. He's my 3rd so I should b expert by now, but no such luck.
I fear 2 say this, but 4yo can b even worse, i reckon. About 4.5yo they start 2 improve.

[chrissnow]

All I can say is thank the lord I have good PIL. They have dds on a Wed pm. DD1 is 2.5 and starting threenager in a big way. DD2 is 1.5 and starting terrible two's and copying dd1's threenager shouting matches. They actually had a proper hairpulling fighting match over a piece of chewed up breakfast muffin this morning "mine" "mine" MINE MINE to admit this but I actually ate it myself and shouted "MINE" louder than the pair of them !!! I then walked out of the room and sat in the kitchen somewhere between tears and hysterics (the looks on their faces were priceless). They've been up since 5am this morning and I didn't get home from work until 1am so am amazed they are still in one piece!!! PIL are well used to me by now. I screech up outside the house. Let 'the beasts' out of the car (to much cuddling and kissing from grandad). They then make me a cuppa listen to me whinge and send me home to bed!!!! Every single time i go to pick them up I'm greeted with kisses and cuddles (from the girls) and another cuppa and feel horrible for being so stroppy in the morning!!!!
Generally I try to ignore tantrums/make them giggle/have a dance etc, but sometimes . and I've got this for at least another 2 years by my reckoning.. . . eek.

[pendulum]

scattyspice genuine question re easing off punishments- doesn't this just bank up problems for the future? Sometimes DD spends all day trying to bring our wrath down on her head. She seems almost pleased/ relieved to be punished, as if her feet have found the bottm of the pool (IYSWIM). Isn't it all about finding the boundaries?

[scattyspice]

I'd say in that case the punishments are probably working so stick with it.

With DS trouble starts when we try to control him too much, he gets frustrated and angry/defiant.

What really doesn't work for us are delayed punishments (removal of toys, treats etc when we get home or later in the day). Nor do star charts etc.

If he crosses the line I tell him off (ok shout a bit ), take him to one side until he calms down then forget all about it and carry on.

Horses for courses though.

[cookiemonstress]

Have been thinking and just want to say thanks again to Hairy Toe and mrs mattie. I have been so much at my wits end with dd1 that i have been contemplating stopping work because i'm convinced myself this is why. Not that we can afford for me to do this so it's useful to know that this is not likely to be the root cause of the problem. :-)