Getting a bit concerned about ds taking everything so literally and seriously

[nutcracker]

He is 5 and you simply cannot say anything to him without him taking offence.

We can be having a laugh and i will say 'harry you are so funny' and he will instantly change his face to appear angry and say quite aggresivly ' I am not funny', like it was an insult.

Whatever you say, clever, silly, lovely, happy, sad etc etc he takes it as an insult.

You simply cannot have a laugh and a joke with him because he doesn't get it at all. He just gets angry and insists what you are saying is wrong.

It is getting really hard to have a conversation with him because it turns into a minefield of me not knowing what to say so not to upset him.

I had his parents evening tonight, and they seem quite happy with him. I asked about his behaviour and they said it was fine, and that he was a typical boy . He is the first boy I have had so I have no idea if he is typical or not tbh.

Is it somthing to worry about or will he grow out of it.

[nutcracker]

Trying to think of a better example

If I told him he was a cheeky moneky for example, he would get angry and say 'I am not a monkey', like he thinks you really mean he is a monkey.

Am i making any sense ?

[nutcracker]

bump

[LittleMissNorty]

I haven't got any advice I'm afraid but will bump for you.

Has DS got any brothers or sisters? I think I recognise this feeling a little bit from when I was very small of feeling my sibling was being treated differently from me - even though they weren't IYKWIM...I realise now of course that different personalities are handled differently but at the time.....

Hope you get some good advice...

[nutcracker]

He has got 2 older sisters, but I don't think I treat them any differently really.
Not sure lol.

[StripeyMamaSpanx]

DD (4.10) is the same.

She was called a 'star' by my dad recently and got Very Cross Indeed.

As for the time I said 'Come on sausage'...

'Do I look like a sausage? Am I long and pink?' in indignant tone.

I think its just what some kids are like tbh - I'd never thought it was anything to worry about. Though if he doesn't like being told he's funny/happy/clever etc, it could suggest some sort of 'self esteem' type thing maybe?

[soph28]

What is he like in other ways? It does sound as though his thinking is a bit rigid for a 5 yr old but that may just be him. Has he always been like this or is it a recent thing. If it is recent I would say it was more just a behavioural phase and it would be best just to not pay too much attention and see if it gets better.

Does he understand abstract concepts, jokes, emotions, other people's perspectives (obviously all relative to his age)? How does he cope with new places, people, new situations/challenges, changes to his normal routines and environment?

If you think there are issues in other areas, particularly some of the ones I have mentioned it may be worth pursuing but it may just be his personality. I am going to bed soon but will check this thread tomorrow.

Hope this helps a wee bit!

[ChiefFairyCakeMaker]

DD (nearly 6) is like that too, she takes everything literally and gets angry when I tease her or try and have a laugh with her. She got upset recently because we were in a soft play area and she saw a sign saying that it was only for children under 5, it took a lot to persuade her that it was okay for her to be there. And she would also take offence to being called a monkey or a sausage!

Soph I know what you're hinting at and I have had some concerns as she doesn't seem to have any empathy at all finding it very hard to see things from someone else's perspective but then she loves anything new so I think it's just a developmental thing. School have said they think she is a bit emotionally immature, but she's doing fine there so I'm not too worried, I think she'll catch up emotionally.

[Elephantsbreath]

hmmm. Ds (4) has started doing this recently. Have to admit I haven't taken much notice, sort of assumed he was learning 'Telling Off' from his nursery teacher (or me?).

'I am NOT a PICKLE'
'Am NOT LITTLE, excuse me!'
etc etc
also
'I think you should take time to THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID MADAM!"

Agree it all gets very tiring.

[nutcracker]

Thanks for the replies.

He definatly doesn't understand abstract concepts, jokes, or other people's perspectives, infact he would get annoyed if someone had a different perspective to his.

He does understand emotions though.

He has been like this for a while but it seems to be getting worse. He seems so angry all of the time, and even having a conversation with him is getting very difficult because as soon as he thinks you are wrong, or have said something wrong, then off he goes, grumpy face, angry voice, and telling me or whoever that he isn't xyz, or something.

It is hard to explain.

He also doesn't care what he says to people. He isn't nasty and doesn't upset people deliberatly, but he seems to have no concept of what is appropriate to say and what isn't and if I tell him he shouldn't have said something, he gets angry with me.

For example, we walk with a neighbour and her dd to school. Recently though the neighbours hubby had been taking the dd as mum was ill. Ds liked walking with him as he'd talk to him about star wars, spiderman etc.
Then the one morning the mum came to the door instead as she was better, and ds said 'why are you here, i don't want you to walk with us, i want xxx'.

When i told him that it wasn't very nice to say that because it was rude, he got angry, i think because he couldn't understand what he'd said wrong, afterall, he had said what he was thinking.

[ChiefFairyCakeMaker]

DD went through a really angry phase last year when she disagreed with everything we said and had lots of tantrums and raged at us sometimes! She also got upset a lot and there were a lot of angry tears of frustration. It was upsetting to witness, but she's come through it.

I think her emotional development got out of synch with her physical development ie. she was frustrated because she wanted to do things she couldn't physically do, and she thought she was older that we were treating her and didn't like being told anything.

She's a lot better now, I hope your DS grows out of it too.

[ahundredtimes]

nutcracker - do you think he is picking up visual clues or understands them at all, such as body language and people's facial expressions?

Perhaps sit down with him and pull faces and see if he understands the 'happy' 'sad' ' thoughtful' etc.

Sometimes some children can be very literal in the words they hear - and become defensive - because they don't understand the social cues, like facial expressions, properly.

[soph28]

As I said before nutcracker, it's hard to know. The things you have mentioned are fairly typical of Autistic spectrum/Asperger's but there's a lot more to it than that.

Also it sounds as though it's fairly normal for children to go through phases like this where they are very rigid in their thinking and I'm sure lots of children that age embarrass their parents by saying what they think.

My 2yo says similar things like, 'I'm not xyz, I'm just Toby' but he is much younger which is why I thought your ds might be slightly emotionally immature or more like a younger child in his thinking, but maybe my ds will still be saying that in a few years time too!

ChiefFairyCakeMaker- I think your right not to worry too much, we can get too obsessed with these types of things. It sounds as though your dd is doing fine generally.

[ChiefFairyCakeMaker]

Soph - I work with adults with learning disabilities so that helps me keep things in perspective .

[CoteDAzur]

Difficulty understanding humour or others' feelings sounds like Asperger's. Have an assessment if you are worried, but even if so, he will get better even if only because he learns in time to function in accordance to what is expected of him (rather than what feels normal) in a given situation.

Sit down with him with a comic book for example, point at faces and ask him if each is happy/sad/worried/angry/envious/etc and how good he is at judging sentiment by facial expression.

[nutcracker]

I think he is definatly emotinolly immature, without a doubt.

That is a brilliant idea about the comic CoteDAzure, I will definatly do that.

Interacting socially with him at the moment just seems like such hard work. He gets on with children his age and slightly older, but only if they are interested in the same things as him.
He gets obssessed with things like Spiderman, Star Wars and Doctor Who and basically that is all he can talk about. If an adult asks him a general question, he ignores it completely and wil start telling them about xyz (his latest obsession).
It's like he hears them ask the question, but either can't or doesn't want to answer and so just launches off into what he is comfortable with.

Thankfully most adults humour him with this.

[Candlewax]

Nutcracker, you could have been talking about my ds at aged 5. My ds at aged 9 was given a dx of Aspergers.

[CoteDAzur]

You just ticked off two more symptoms of AS:
-Engaging in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is listening or trying to change the subject

• Showing an intense obsession with one or two specific, narrow subjects

Read a bit on AS and see if it sounds familiar. This is a very good article. AS people tend to be very intelligent and it is NOT a disability, rather a slightly different way of thinking.

[nutcracker]

Have just read a bit about Aspergers, as I don't know much about it, and the first site I went on sounded like they were talking specifically about him.

How do I now though ? I keep thinking people will think I am silly for thinking anything is wrong. I have just had his parents evening and I asked about his behaviour and was told it was absolutly fine.

I will try the emotions thing with him tommorow, although I have just remembered that he has shown some understanding of emotions with me. He once told me to smile and when i asked why, he said so you will be happy.

Candlewax, when did you start to think there was a problem ?

[nutcracker]

know not now

[nutcracker]

Just found a site with printable checklists for different parts of behaviour, ie social, motor skills etc, so I am going to orint them off and fill them in and see what I end up with.

Reading them through though, we have alot of ticks so far.

[CoteDAzur]

My expeeience of AS is limited to having a good friend with AS. And I researched it quite a bit because his way of thinking intrigued me. You could also try posting on Special Needs board. The ladies there are very helpful. Please do not worry, though. Again, AS is NOT a disability. Learning more about it would help you communicate with your ds better though.
For example, when your ds says something inappropriate, take your time explaining to him why it offends people (people want to be wanted and liked so don't like being told not to come etc) and why offending people is not a good idea (if she does not like you, she will not let her son play with you). Logical explanations work better than emotional ones.

[Candlewax]

Hi Nutcracker

I did not know what the problem was until ds was diagnosed. He was always hard work but somehow, instinctively, we knew what to do and how to handle him to make life a little easier. He was dx in December 2004, just after starting year 5 at school. He actually had a "breakdown" because he could not cope with school and somehow, he just knew he was different to his peers and basically he became very depressed.

My ds actually had social problems and other problems from a very young age. He was always in trouble at school. School could not quite put their finger on it at the time and neither could I. To be very honest, I had never heard of Aspergers until he was dx. He as also doing some of the classic autistic things, but as I said, in my ignorance, I did not appreciate it. He was my first ds and so, like you, I had nothing to compare him against. I worked, so I did not do the nursery bits and pieces, our childminder did and on the occasions I was with him when he was with other children, he would have some sort of meltdown when it all became too much and I would end up taking him home.

I have to disagree with Cote DAZuer, if someone has Aspergers, they do have a life long disability. It is a neurological condition which cannot be cured and to be honest, I would not want that, I love my ds just as he is. She is totally right though, in that logical explanations work much better than emotional ones. Be prepared though, you will have to be your ds's teacher and be prepared to anticipate a lot of situations before they happen and prepare him for them. Asperger children are very friendly, they just do not understand the social world around them and so, the more you can teach them what is appropriate, the better it will be for them. Be prepared also for them to not want to feel like taking it all in!! Stubbon little devils at the best of times. If it suits them, they will do it, if it doesn't they won't and that is NOT them being awkward on purpose. Asperger children cannot anticipate situations like you and I would and can therefore get very anxious. You need lots of patience.

Anyway, self diagnosis is of no help to you whatsoever. If I were you, and very concerned, I would go and see you GP and ask for a referral to a psychologist who is an expert in autism and who is able to make a diagnosis for you. If it is suspected that your LO may be on the spectrum, then you will go through a series of talks, assessments, views got from school etc. The professionals do not like to diagnose a child lightly, so do be prepared for a bit of a wait whilst they make their deliberations.

It may turn out that he is not on the spectrum at all and that way your mind will be put at ease too.

Good luck.

[maximummummy]

i just read the signs and syptoms for AS and that sounds exactly like my dad - how do people in later life deal with AS? do they learn to act as society expects people too?

[nutcracker]

Thank you Candlewax and everyone else.

Have just had yet another huge tantrum from ds, they seem to be getting so much worse so quickly.

He went to a party yesterday afternoon and we were the first there. He took the present up to the little girl and gave it to her, she said thank you, and he launched into teling her how he has a new character in his star wars game. She was so not interested and even turned away but he still carried on. I felt so sorry for him. As soon as another child came in, he'd start telling them all over again.

The questionaire I printed out yesterday had 5 sections. I can't type the whole thing out as it's too long, but these are the bits that I ticked as applying to Ds.

Section 1 - Social Interactions

*Monopolozing the conversation
*Obsessive conversation in one area
*Lacks ability to repair, understand or maintain conversational flow
*Unable to follow rules of game/turn taking
*Has difficulty with winning and losing
*Is unable to select activities that are of interest to others
*Displays narow play and acticity choices
*Does not know how to respond to compliments
*Does not realize that something he says or does can hurt someones feelings
*Lacks awareness if someone appears bored, angry, upset
*Averts eye contact
*Lacks awareness of facial expressions or body language
*Talks on and on about a special interest whilst unaware that the person is no longer paying attention/talks to someone obviously engaged in another activity
*Makes rude comments

Section 2 - Language skills

*Uses conversation to convey facts and info about special interests rather than thoughts, emotions and feelings
*Has difficulty in maintaining a conversation
*Focuses conversations on one narrow topic with too many details given
*Once a discussion starts it is as if there is no stop button (if talking about his fave subject)
*Knows how to greet someone but has no idea of how to continue the conversation and next comment may be one that is totally irrelavent
*Does not make conversation reciprocal, has difficulty with the back and forth aspects of conversation
*Leaves a conversation before it has concluded
*Makes comments that may embarass others
*Interupts others
*Engages in obsessive questioning or talking in one area, lacks interest in the topics of others
*Is unable to make or understand jokes/teasing
*Interprets known words on a literal level
*Has difficulty discriminating between fantasy and fact
*Displays difficulty with volume control of voice
*Has difficulty switching from one channel to another, processing is slow and easily interrupted by any environmental stimulation
*Displays a delay when answering questions

Section 3 - Interests, routines, order

*Has developed narrow and specific interests
*Anxiety, meltdowns - crying, agression, property destruction, screaming
*Non complient behaviours
*Emotional responses out of proportion to situation, responses are tense and tend to be negative

Section 4 - Motor skills

*Difficulty with writing, cutting and coluring skills
*An unusual pencil/pen grasp
*Difficulty applying sufficient pressure when writing drawing or colouring
*Difficulty with independantly seeing sequential steps to complete finished product

Section 5 - Cognitive issues

*Is unaware that others have thoughts, beliefs and desires that influence their behaviour
*Is unaware that people have different viewpoints and intentions from their own and doesn't realise that the listener is having difficulty following the conversation
*Is unaware he can say something that will hurt someone elses feelings
*Is distractable, has difficulty sustaining attention
*Has difficulty with task completion
*Has difficulty with direction following
*Displays infelxible thinking, does not learn from past mistakes
*Uses limited play themes or toys
*Attempts to control aspects of play any atempts to vary the play is met with resistance
*Engages in play that seems imaginary but is often a retelling of a favourite movie/tv show/book
*Focuses on special ineterests such that they dominate play and activity choices
*Uses visual information to help focus attention

Section 6 - Sensory sensitivities

*Avoids eye contact

• Is fearful of some sounds particular objects make ie blender
  *overreacts to pain
  
  And that is it, thats all of the things that struck a chord with me when reading the lists. There were others that sounded familiar but that I wasn't sure about and so I didn't tick those.
  
  It's a long list isn't it.

[tibni]

hi,

You obviously have concerns about your child. It is very difficult emotionally as a parent when possible problems become apparent.

All schools have SENCOs (Special educational needs co ordinators) - it would be worth talking to the SENCO in your school. Health visitors can also be worth chatting to. Schools have to follow set procedures in identifying problems and a period of observation is one of them (to see if the child just needs time to settle) so by you approaching them you can move things forward.

The Special Needs board is worth a glance at and a supportive place to post on

take care