Help me start as I mean to go on - bedtime routine

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

Looking for ideas and suggestions please to help us start a framework of bedtime routine for our sleep-resistant 16 week old baby.

At the moment we have no routine, he's overtired and overstimulated by the end of the day, he only naps on the move or on my shoulder and not for more than 45 minutes (but needs longer than this as is perpetually tired). Come 5 I am making dinner, with him in the sling shouting and straining and whingeing (and rocking, even as I type, impressed?! ) to keep him calm while DP gets in (lights/noise when darkness falls and another person arrives cause great excitement), then darkened room for BF and grobag. It can take around 2 hours rocking/feeding before I can leave him, sometimes more, and then he wakes again after 45 minutes usually.

He sleeps in a cotbed sidecar next to our bed(often only way to get him asleep lying down is feeding him to sleep). I've tried leaving him alone to see if he'll nod off - this is generally met with hysterical escalating screaming which then takes an age to calm him down from. Twice recently he's woken from sleep at night but settled himself with just my hand on him, but although crying/shouting I don't think he's been properly awake on these occasions.

We had a few days a month ago now where I managed to feed him to sleep on our bed then come downstairs for the night, but this has not happened since with any success. He wakes after 45 minutes unfailingy. I have tried hovering as the critical time approaches but maybe not tried hard enough, my nerves and patience are shot and I'm kind of sick of it all .

I feel like it takes so long to get him to sleep, and I do much of it because (A) He often needs fed to sleep (B) DP gets him wound up and (C) DP doesn't seem to have the precise swaying motion required to get him off to sleep. I therefore resent DS for taking up all of my day and all of my night, I have no time alone, and if I want a quiet night I have to go to bed with him .

Therefore maybe a routine whereby he knows what happens when, and can predict it, and knows it will end in sleep, will over time help him to wind down a bit. He has hysterical crying most evenings at some point because he's just too tired and overstimulated to switch off, and I'm honestly worried DP or I will end up hurting him because our patience is shot to bits and he's so very, very frustrating. At least with steps of a routine to follow we have something concrete, and are doing something more than merely surviving day to day as we are just now. I go back to work in a couple of months and really need this to be improving by then or I think we're heading for serious problems between DP and I and between DS and both of us.

So, what would you knowledgeable and experienced people suggest? Baths are great cos he loves them, but I think he gets way too wound up by them, cue lots of kicking/shouting/mad eyes by the time he's getting his PJs on. Ditto massage. Might cope with a story or song provided in darkness, but not sure. Need to DO something, but not enough to excite him IYSWIM?

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

DP is currently walking round the kitchen with the cooker hood on (white noise!) chanting 'fucking go to sleep, fucking go to sleep' while DS groans and cries and whines and refuses to sleep. This is a totally normal evening in this household and we're all really miserable about it, and our short tempers and patience are not helping DS at all, I admit.

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

God that first post is so long and rambly, sorry :mutters about lack of edit button:

[NineUnlikelyTales]

Ooh 16 weeks, he is still very young. I think you are being quite hard on yourself. I know that some babies of the same age are sleeping 42 hours a night etc etc but most of the ones I know who have been treated with gentleness behave exactly the same as your DS. So it isn't anything you have/haven't done.

The most important thing I think you need to do is to stop thinking that you are the only person who can get your DS to sleep. Your DP doesn't have the right swaying action? Well he'll have to find a flipping sway/swing/pat/song that works for him won't he? You need a break not only physically from your DS but also from the complete responsibility of saying how everything must be done.

How about if you try

Very quiet bath with lights low if possible and only one toy, not much stimulation

Into babygrow

3 gentle storybooks

Huge feed

Into bedroom with lights already low

Shush-pat to sleep

Play music in the room to drown out background noises

If he wakes up after 45 minutes, more shush-pat

Be kind to yourself. It is hard when you don't have a natural sleeper but it will get better.

[NineUnlikelyTales]

OK I just read your second post and I think it would help a lot if you could all just calm down. Your DS will be picking up on the anger and frustration. When I feel like saying what your DH has been saying, I try really hard to keep calm because otherwise it just escalates. Even just saying those words is winding you all up. I'm not trying to make you feel bad because believe me, I have been there too.

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

You're right, totally right, about stress. We're all so tired and stressed and everyone's always said 'it gets better, wait for 3 months, it will be better' and really it isn't better in the evenings, although I so hoped it would be (because the HV called it 'colic').

I know myself when I get worked up it makes DS worse, but he's just so frustrating and can cry for hours out of tiredness. Have looked on eBay for patience but nothing doing! I do take on your point though, we need to just stop anticipating a nightmare every night and stay calm.

[steph101]

Call your HV and tell her what is going on - take all the help you can get. Go for long walks (if you can manage to stay awake!) which is good air for your baby and apparently proven that babys sleep better when they have had fresh air during the day. I take it a dummy wont be had by your little man then?

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

JABTN I am not personally keen for this approach, partly due to concerns about his developing sense of trust and security but also because he doesn't 'cry down', he gets himself sickeningly upset. DP, on the other hand, would do it, but I'm really not keen. Thanks for taking the time to post though, and I'm glad it works for you .

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

Steph, my HV is talking us through gradual retreat and is coming tomorrow to advise further but I don't think she realises that we can't 'just sit by him' because he gets himself manic. She reckons I should leave DP to it at night but I'm scared DS would spend all night crying and I cannot tolerate that. He also has a little reflux which isn't helped by lying in his cot howling. Dummy - in my dreams!

[NineUnlikelyTales]

My DS was rubbish in the evenings until about 4-5 months. It is hell, especially when you have friends whose babies are sleeping through.

We didn't try and put our DS to bed in the evening before us until he was 6 months and had shown signs of being ready for it. I know it's not for everyone but I didn't feel we had a choice as I couldn't do what justaboutnormal suggests (each to their own). When we did it went very smoothly. I found it helped to put on an act of being a calm, together parent. It soothed all of us.

In the early evening are you sitting in bright lights with the television on? That alone can be very stimulating to a baby.

[steph101]

CSB - I cant do it either - my dd is 16 months old now and its only now ( i am the person who posted " not sleeping Please help) that I am beginning to harden up to her screaming,.. mainly because i am to tired to get up and i have learnt the difference between being angry and upset that she is not being fed or whatever to help me im ill crys etc...
I too have a dp who would willing leave her allnight - all this aside thou at somepoint you have to give in and put him down a little while at a time because 1. he is now used to you guys rocking him/cuddling him to sleep and that will continue forever and 2. if you dont have personal time by yourself you will become more and more irratable and then that doesnt help with the relationship with dp. It really is better to try and start to put him down for just 5 mins at a time so he knows you do come back when he is left alone. I have a dd who goes to sleep happy as larry in her cot now at 8 every night - but the night itself is still a bit of a mare. You just have to stick with a routine - or so ive ben told! Good luck xxx

[MrsBadger]

dd is only 12wks but the thing that really makes a difference to the waily overtired evenings is her getting a decent nap during the day.

[steph101]

In response to NUT (Sorry sounds awful i had my dd downstairs asleep with us up until 10 months old when we had 3 bad nights until she was ok to go in a cot byherself. It was easier for me to have her where i could see her!!!

[MrsBadger]

oh, and us 9UT says, dd stays up with us and generally goes down ok at 10-11 after the last feed.

[RubySlippers]

if your DS has reflux he will have trouble settling laying flat on his back

try elevating the head of the cot (a phone book under each cot leg is enough)

upright for as long as you can stand after feeds

sounds like your DS is very over-tired - an you get in a cycle of an over-tired baby being harder to settle so won't and so on ...

i woudl try swaddling in the day for naps - very comforting - will he sleep in the sling on you at all or in a bouncy chair?

[Amberjee]

CSB, you are doing brilliantly love in particularly trying circumstances. here are my thoughts in no particular order

• ds is very little, he probably won't sleep any better, even if you had a good routine, but a routine may be a very good thing to introduce as it won't be too long before he will start to make associations and understand cues etc.

• let DP do his share (or more than his share if you need it) and don't worry if his swaying action is not right, i think dps can be very ingenius if left to their own devices. he will figure it out soon enough.

• don't worry about feeding to sleep at this stage. do what you can to get him to sleep.

• waking up 30-45mins after going to sleep is really really common. i don't know why it happens and i don't know how to fix it. it seems likethey know just whne you've sat down to dinner.

• baths. yes they seem to get my ds excited too, but i think in a way he gets to let out some energy and then when he comes out he actually seems calmer even though he was madly splashing about and laughing etc in the bath iyswim.

• our routine is pretty much bath, book, boob, bed. i'd say in the early days it doesn't make much sense to them, but as they get older i think they know what to expect.

• take care of yourself. this is a trying time. get any help you can. friends/ relatives etc. by 4 months often people think it's easier for you, but it can actually be harder. don't be afraid to ask people to drop around home cooked food or something. i know the few times my friends did this, it was absolute bliss and meant i could get to bed just that little bit earlier on those nights.

((hugs))

[Spoo]

I think settling at night time has a lot to do with your day time routine. The whoile 24 hours need sorting. Not sure how well he sleeping during the day, but I would recommend that you try a half hour or hour sleep in the morning 9-10. ONe at around lunchtime for 2 hours then maybe one early evening - say not after 4. Then keep you feeding t oa schedule. ALways wake the baby in the morning at 7. He will then get used to what is expected of him at different times of the day. I would try calm bath, followed by milk in the dark and cuddles, then a strong 'night night - mummy and daddy love you lots and put him down.
This is very similar to a routine by an unmentionable person that might be worth looking at if you are trying to get your house more in order - just take it all with a pinch of salt.

P.S. RELAX ! It WILL come and you will have your evenings back. Anyway off to bathtime!!

[Amberjee]

and this 3 months magic you'll have a better baby promise - it's a complete joke. and not a very funny one at that. i guess at least it got my through the first 3 months with a modicum of hope, before my dreams of sleep were shattered.

here is a non-sleepers blog for anyone interested (shameless plug!)

[Maveta]

I´m not really that experienced (my only ds is 6mo) but I think we started trying to organise a bedtime routine about the same time as you are now thinking about it. We found that, for us, the best way to take the stress out of it all was to do the routine (slowly calm the playing down, naked time on the change mat, bath, then I´d feed him lying down and dh would read him some stories) but then not stress about when he went to sleep after that. We did go through a process of trying to put him in his cot and let him drop off and it was all too stressful. We started just letting him hang out on the sofa with us, just for cuddles and quiet time and we´d only put him in the cot when we were pretty sure he was tired enough to nod off. He might whimper a little bit but would normally settle himself. Does he use a dummy? Our ds sucks his thumb but we often found he would stress himself out looking for it and not finding it so when he was this tired giving him a dummy could help. We also give him a muslin blanket or his cuddly rabbit that he stroked between his fingers and seemed to calm him.

You have to tell your dh that when he comes home it is QUIET TIME. I had to ram this message home with my dh who would come in (understandably) excited to see his ds. At the weekend he often tried to say we didn´t need bathtime every night (because this was the only time he had to do it ) but I insisted, ditto letting him fall asleep on his chest instead of following through with putting him in his cot. I have really perservered and (touch wood) now the routine is like clockwork.

I nearly always take him for a 30mins-40mins walk in the sling just before the bedtime routine too, I´m sure this blast of fresh air helps and the motion and being close to me probably helps him relax and wind down. Within 15mins of getting in (during which time I leave him to play quietly on the floor) it´s time for bath etc etc. By the time I put his pjs on he starts a little tired whinging, might get a little hint of a cry as I put his grobag on, then I lie down to feed him and as he gets half sleepy I bung him in the cot, blanket, rabbit, kiss, close door

He still doesn´t sleep all night but hey, can´t have it all oh, and we don´t do stories anymore because he simply doesn´t stay awake long enough to hear them! lol.

[Amberjee]

spoo, i'd love ds to have a nap for 2 hours at lunchtime, but it just aint going to happen!!

[Maveta]

sorry I´ve caught up with all the x-posts (well mine was a big long so I missed loads) and should point out that when I say when we started we just let him hang out with us and put him in his cot when we were sure he would sleep - that sometimes that would be not long before we went to bed ourselves!! That´s an important point, right? I don´t want to mislead you.. I think like most other people have said, the important thing is for all of you to try and calm down and relax about it, not fight against it. We very much go by the ´he´s a baby and we can´t force him to do anything he doesn´t want to´ school and we find everything that little bit easier when we aren´t stressing about changing it.

I personally just hold on to knowing they are so little for such a short time and ´this too shall pass´ LOL.

I´m sure you are doing really well, it´s all so hard sometimes, isn´t it?!

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

Thanks all. I'd be happy to have him downstairs with us but he's just such a misery, he can't possibly nap in the bright lights etc downstairs, he'd go mental! He's is definitely chronically overtired, and yes, he desperately needs more naptime, but as it is I spend 45 minute chunks of most days with him snoozing on my chest, scared to move and wake him.

I saw him next to some babies of a similar age the other day and he's extremely bright compared to the others in that he's wide-eyed and interested in everything and 'talking' to everyone (not starting a G&T row here, promise , and this really brought home to me how stimulating he finds the world. Very hard to find a routine which isn't counterproductive in this sense.

DP eating and rocking now ... :sigh: ... LO still wailing ... my turn now though! Thanks for all your help and kindness so far.

[jazzandh]

We had similar problems with Ds when he was tiny - so {{{hugs}}}} to you - hang in there.

In retrospect and after much reading up- it came down to overtiredness, and the waking after 30/45 mins at night is a huge pointer to this.

I second Spoo in looking at your whole routine, and getting the naps in during the day - however you can. If you can get out in the fresh air so much the better. Too long between wake-up and the next sleep will cause overtiredess, and perversley in some los make it sooo much harder for them to get to sleep.

What got me through was the babywhisperer books and website. Whole boards devoted to your problems and moderators to help you out. Post your routine in detail and they will get you through it. Also you will get plenty of examples of routines.

Good luck.

[ChubbyScotsBurd]

Thanks jazz, I agree very much with what you say re overtiredness. It's a chronic thing but so hard to get out of ths cycle.

I was very anti-routine but feel strongly now that he needs some sort of structure to his day so he knows what's happening when. He gets so easily worked up (for example, can't sit him in bouncy chair with toy for entertainment, he'd be wired within a minute or two!).

So, more naps (don't know how to do this TBH, am already totally living around his naps and doing all sorts of crazy stuff in order to eke more out of him!) and a gentle quiet routine. Bath definitely out though, sends him mental excited to the extent that he's crying hysterically before he's even dressed, which sucks because he really enjoys it.