DS screamed at me I'm a "stupid idiot"!

[mummyloves]

I feel absolutely dreadful as I've just screamed blue murder at DS aged 3 1/2 because he won't stay in his bed or let me go downstairs if I have dared try to get off his bed before he's fully asleep. Admittedly I'm in my pre-menstrual week but I'm just so sick and tired of never having any time in the evenings to myself that it's really winding me up. My last resort is the "shut the door" routine and it doesn't get opened until he stops crying and yelling and gets back into bed. Normally this has passed off after several attempts but eventual success and doesn't get used very often, mainly because I lay there until he IS asleep. Sometimes though I don't get downstairs until nearly 9pm. Tonight though, I went to get out of bed and he sat up to protest and I just blew my top at him. I was like a woman possessed.I went from cuddly calm mum to mad woman split personality and it must have been horrible for him. Last night I'd ended up falling asleep on his bed myself and didn't wake up till midnight. I just never get anything done and tonight I had so many important things to do. I'm ashamed to say I launched straight into the shut the door routine and he ended up throwing his bottle of milk at the door, pulling his books off his bookcase and screaming in that throaty scream, "you stupid idiot", over and over. He's unfortunately learnt this unpleasant phrase because he heard me say it about other road users, not because I've EVER called him one. After 10 - 15 minutes of this, I heard him get back into bed and he went straight to sleep. I'm mortified.He's not like this usually and now I'm crying. I know I shouldn't lose my temper like this. Does anyone else find themselves in the same position and how can I get this sorted. Please help.

[Miaou]

Mummyloves, don't feel too bad about the way you reacted. I screeched at my dds this morning for swinging my favourite mirror on its hook, and felt very bad afterwards...I'm not surprised you feel sick and tired, it must be very draining having to sit with him, all the time wishing you could get on with your life!

What I would suggest is:

• sit down with him during the day at a "good" time for him to be listening to you (ie not when tired or hungry). Explain that bedtime is going to be different from now on - that you will put him to bed, kiss him goodnight, then leave the room. And that he is going to go to sleep. If you want to, have a sticker chart or a small present for him in the morning if he manages this and tell him that this will happen when you are having this talk. Make it sound like an exciting new adventure.
  
  
• Keep reminding him during the day(when he is happy) about the special new bedtime he is getting. Don't be put off by a negative response - just keep telling him that if he complies there will be a sticker/present for him in the morning.
  
  
• At bedtime, once he is in pjs and teeth brushed, read a story (I like to do this sitting on the bed with the lights down low-ish, but you may prefer to do it in the living room if there are no distractions). Remind him again what is going to happen. Ignore any negative responses (if any). Make sure he doesn't need the toilet or a drink before you settle him.
  
  
• Put him to bed, give him a goodnight kiss, then leave the room. If he calls out for you, ignore him. If he leaves the room, calmly take him back and put him back into bed, reassure him you are still around, then leave. Keep doing that until he gets bored.
  
  
• If he is hysterical, shouting etc, ignore if you can - he has proved that once he realises that you aren't going back in then he WILL settle down!
  
  
• In the morning, give loads of praise and promised sticker/present - and tell him WHY you are so pleased with him - even if it's just that he went to sleep EVENTUALLY on his own....
  
  
• Persevere. Depending on how stubborn he is, it might take a while. But if you don't go back to lying on his bed, it will work!
  
  Mummyloves, I really hope this doesn't sound patronising or dictatorial - hope it is helpful to you.

[mummyloves]

Oh Miaou, stubborn is an understatement. When he was very little and I tried CC, I ended up giving up because he would keep going for 4hrs +. The Healthvisitor used to say it was me, I wasn't persevering etc but when she tried when it came to getting him to do various things, like take a bottle because I was going back to work, even she gave up and said she'd never known such a stubborn baby! When people say, you have to persevere and by the end of the first week etc there should be an improvement, any improvement I see only comes after a couple of months! It's taken me since the beginning of may to get him in his own bed. I suppose I've accepted that it's a long haul, everything has been with him, but I think that I'm more upset that I feel as though I've "abused" him by shouting at him complete with contorted face and clenched teeth. Not a very pleasant experience for him. I'm just so sorry if I've scared him and don't know how to respond in the morning. I'm still very angry that he's called me a stupid idiot.

[Miaou]

Wow mummyloves, that must be so hard to deal with. My advice is probably not much help then really . Do you think you could keep it up for a couple of months? It would take grit and determination on your part but perhaps would be worth it to give you a piece of your life back.

And focus on the things you HAVE managed to achieve, despite his stubbornness - you have got him into his own bed, and to take a bottle - so you can do it!

Try not to feel guilty about your reaction to him. It's normal - honestly - to react that way when under stress. He will probably not remember it in the morning.

[mummyloves]

I think I'll stop beating myself up. You're right, I've managed to get this far even though I have had to warn the neighbours that it's just bedtime and please don't call Social Services. I've had a re-think and I think I need to get to the GP and try to get something for my PMS. It's definitely a trigger time and something that I should get help controlling. Other times I get stern, cross, firm (all reasonable). Tonight I've decided mummy needs a bit of a crutch. Thanks Miaou for posting. I realise that I am quite new on here and cos I work all day and have terrible probs at night, i don't often have the time to get on. While I was browsing I came across the thread about "Suspicious first time users" and was praying that I wasn't being lumped into a "suspicious" category! Mm, PMS..... paranoid??!!

[aloha]

Think Miaou's advice is excellent and really well worth a try, starting tomorrow. You don't have to be depressed to be wound up by never having an evening to yourself. We all shout sometimes. I think it might even have been a good thing in that he went to bed by himself and slept by himself - you see, he can do it! Stop beating yourself up about this. He won't remember it in the morning and he will still love you.

[aloha]

Well, he might remember it, but this won't scar him for life!!

[Miaou]

Mummyloves, don't be put off by those threads - I've been on Mumsnet since about April this year and TBH these last couple of weeks have been a bit of a "blip" - we are not normally a suspicious lot! And don't be put off by the fact that I am the only one (so far) to have replied - different people come on to mumsnet at different times of day, so more people may see this in the morning and have some more advice for you. I'm certainly not well-placed to advise you - I've not been through what you are going through, but I couldn't bear to watch your message descend through Active Conversations without a reply when you were obviously feeling so shitty.

I'll do my best to bump this in the morning for you so you may get some more (better) advice! In the meantime, {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}, don't beat yourself up, and don't think you are doing a bad job either!!

Also, be aware there is a poster called mummylove who was posting earlier tonight, I just mention it in case there is a confusion at any time - I was posting for a couple of months before I came across Mieow, and have been mistaken for her before now!

[Miaou]

oops, crossed posts aloha.

[mummyloves]

I don't feel depressed, I just get that irritable, angry, "why will nothing go right" feeling and am unable to think logically and get very emotional. I used to have Prozac for PMS and it worked brilliantly, but I haven't taken it since DS was born. I just feel all the old symptoms coming back and it could be a help. While we're on the routine subject, the biggest problem I have is the bit where I have to put him back in bed if he gets out. I stroke his head, tuck him in, say goodnight, walk out of the door and before I'm two steps down the stairs he's on the landing. I put him back in and he doesn't even let me get a foot from the bed and he's scrambling to follow me. I've yo yo'd like this on one occasion until gone 1 in the morning. I've sat next to the bed, sat outside the room with the door open, sat at the bottom of the stairs, but it's like he's on a piece of elastic. What do you think is the best way. It would be manageable if there were gaps in between say even 5 or 10 minutes but there are no gaps!.

[Miaou]

How would you feel about shutting the door and holding it shut until he gets back in? I appreciate that you could be facing the same scenario as last night every night if you went down this route....but he DID get into bed and go to sleep after 15 mins, so it did work.....and even if he screams and cries with rage, it will not harm him in the long term, as Aloha points out.

Sorry mummyloves, this will probably be my last post of the night, power goes off at twelve (that's what comes of living on a tiny island!). I will check back in the morning. Hugs to you.

[mummyloves]

Miaou, THANK YOU. Even though I try not to let it get to this stage and have said it's a last resort, at least if you've suggested it you can't think I'm an evil monster for letting my child get into such a rage. It really hurts me, and when he does this I'm thinking, should I not be going in and calming him? Am I scaring the life out of him? Should I not be going in and dealing with the rights and wrongs of throwing things and screaming rude things to me? If I don't take him to task because he's screamed I'm a stupid idiot, will he think he can call me that other times? These are serious questions in my head and very real to me. Will ignoring this lead to him thinking this is acceptable? Night Miaou and thanks. If anyone else has any ideas though I can't face bed just yet!

[Miaou]

Bumping this up for mummyloves....

[SofiaAmes]

Hi mummyloves, you poor thing. I know how difficult it can be to work all day and then come home and still have all the household things to do, while still wanting to spend time with your children. Your ds will forget and forgive you (except for a brief period when he is a teenager when he will remember everything and blame all problems in his life on his "terrible" childhood")
I thought sallystrawberry's "door open unless you get up and then it's closed" idea very good. I do that with my ds (3.5 yrs) and it works really well.
I also remind him that if he doesn't go to bed at bedtime he will be too tired to go on an "adventure" on the weekend because he will be too tired (we always try to do an outing as a family every weekend).
Another thing I do is do the bedtime routine (reading book to him, kisses, etc. etc.) and then tell him that he can read to himself with the light on for another 10 minutes. Of course he can't read, but it's wonderful listening to him make up stories to an upside down book as he flips through the pages. Even dd who is just 2 has started to do the same.
Another thing you might try doing is putting him to bed a little later.

All of this is made more difficult by dh who insists that the only way to get ds to sleep is to lie in bed with him until he's asleep. Dh puts ds to bed about half the time, so it's taken extra long to do the training. I think ds has just about figured out what he can try on which parent.

I have found that I have to try different tactics on different nights depending on ds's mood and how tired he is (usually depending on his activities that day and whether he's had a nap or not).

On another track, it sounds like you may need to figure out how to deal with your tiredness and anger (especially the road rage) before it eats you up. Unfortunately being tired and overworked goes with small children (even if you are a SAHM). My dh has had really great results from seeing a counsellor about his road rage. It has sorted out all sorts of other things that he used to get needlessly angry about and given him healthier tools for and ways of dealing with them.

[KBear]

My DS is three and has started listening to story and nursery rhyme tapes after his usual bedtime stories - he always wants endless stories and I am only human! So I read about three or four then say "as you have been such a good boy you can listen to your tape now". So he snuggles down, has kisses etc then on goes the tape, out goes the mummy, shut goes the door and glug goes the glass of wine!

And we all shout at our kids from time to time don't we? Don't feel bad!

[Philly]

We had a little bit of a problem like this and I used a stairgate on the door ofhis roomThat way I could leave the door open but he couldn't get out.Also once we had cracked the staying in bed we were able to remove the gate as an incentive to be a "big boy".It is hard ,a couple of times he fell asleep on the floor but it did work and at least I knew he couldn't throw himself down the stairs adn also I couldn't have bourne having to shut the door on him as I do think that that can be scary for a small child
Good luck

[Miaou]

Just bumping this again for the evening crowd. Hope you're ok this evening, mummyloves.

[Issymum]

Hi MummyLoves

Sorry to hear you are having such a horrible time. I second the childgate idea. We use this with DD1 (3.5 years old) and it has pretty much solved the problems we had with her getting out of bed/coming downstairs etc.

Our rule is that once we have put her to bed, we will go back to her room once. But unless it's absolutely necessary, we won't go into the room, just give her a quick kiss over the top of the gate, watch her get into bed and tuck herself in, blow another kiss at her and tell her firmly (and with serious intent) that we are absolutely not coming back upstairs. We used to leave the door open for her, but now we close it at her request as she doesn't like the cat coming into her bedroom. [Well done Boris!]

It seems to be important to her that we go back once, maybe just so that she knows that we are there if she needs us. But she has accepted that once is it. We've had some evenings where we've been up once, she has then opened her door, stood at the gate and howled for 45 minutes and finally put herself back to bed, but they've been surprisingly few. The fact that we are not there and she can see we are not there, seems to have convinced her of the futility of calling for us.

DD1 is also a very very 'strong willed' child. Both of the nannies we've employed have described her, with a mixture of love, exasperation and admiration, as the most stubborn child they have ever come across. There is a positive side to stubborn - determination, grit, resolve - but it's tough to deal with in pre-schoolers! Our DD1 hates, hates, hates to lose a battle with us and one way in which she shows that discomfort is throwing things and screaming. It's often a sign that we've 'won'. If that is the case, I overlook if at all possible the 'throwing things' bit and let her move on. So when your DS threw things around the room and called you names, it was may be just his way of relieving the frustration of hitting a boundary, after which he was ready to calm down and go to bed.

[mummyloves]

Thanks Miaou for bumping this message and for everyone's support and advice. Sorry, I've been a fugitive all weekend! Anyway, just to let you know, yesterday I tried to get Ds all excited about his "new" bedtime routine and made sticker chart and promised him a present the following morning if he stayed in his bed. I started tonight and.... well, some success! He had seemed to accept his new routine until I actually went to leave the room. There was a bit of a protest and after a while and lots of trying to reaffirm his promise, I ended up saying that he wasn't going to get his present in the morning. A bit more protesting and I gave him the option of present or he could throw whatever he liked round the room and scream at me! Giving him the green light seemed to take the wind out of his sails. I did briefly close the door for about 30 seconds but after that he DID settle down and go to sleep while I stayed quiet outside his door. He doesn't get the present tomorrow but I'll promise it to him the next morning if he lets mummy go downstairs tomorrow night with no fuss. A minor victory methinks, it certainly wasn't world war 3. Thanks everyone. I'll keep plugging!

[Miaou]

Hi mummyloves, hope you are still going ok with the sleep routine. If you want to share, I would love to know how you are doing now - have been thinking about you over the last few days and wondered how you are getting on!

[Amfs]

Do exactly what miaou says .. I think that's excellent step by step advice

be aware that it might take a few nights ... and he won't remember it

(we actually had to stand outside DS's bedroom and hold the door closed whilst he grappled at the door knob and screamed)

its a battle of wills .. and as you are the mummy it's your job (incredibly hard job) to make sure that you win

You are not just doing it for you .. you are doing it for HIM .. sleep is really important .. and a good sleep routine is paramount

do it mummyloves .. it'll work

[hatter]

oh mummyloves - I sympathise SOOOOOO much. I've been having an awful time at bedtimes recently, and it's the last thing you need at the end of the day. I'm also capable of loosing it and it's not something to be proud of, so I really know how you feel. I haven't got time to read the other threads so apologise if I repeat. The first thing to try to remember (and it's the hardest thing, I know) is not to take it personally. If an adult treated you the way a three-year old does you'd really loose it, they would be the most inconsiderate, unreasonable, selfish person out. But they're not adults. They're still learning how to empathise, put themselves in your shoes, be considerate etc. Remebering this is, for me anyway, sometimes really hard. But it does help. The other - more practical thing - is (stuck record, I know) a star chart. We did a specific one for bedtime, put it next to the bed so she sees it last thing at night, and can put her star on first thing in the morning; and we made the reward for a line of stars something of particular relevance - dds fuss has had a lot to do with dh working longer hours so the rewards is that dh will take her to a cafe for a big piece of cake - just her and him. And it's really worked a treat. I'm sure it will pass and please never think you're the only one.

[hatter]

sorry - see you're doing the reward thing already - hope it goes ok

[hatter]

Just an extra thought - sometimes it can be good to break the present or sticker/star into 2 - then you get a warning stage. ie 2 stickers for no fuss at all, then when there's some fuss you can reduce it to 1. that way you can withdraw some of the reward, whilst still leaving an incentive to recify the situation. does that make sense?