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Behaviour/development

How to help curb ds's competetive and leadership traits?

31 replies

DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 11:37

Ds is 5, after a meeting with his headteacher and teacher it is clear they have issues with this part of his behaviour.

Academically there are no issues. The concerns they have are of a social nature. For example, he leads really good games at playtime (tig/simon says etc) this works when he is leader. If someone challenges him if they want to be in charge he will thump them.

He also appears not to listen in class, chats to his friends and stares out of the window, yet when she questions him he always has the correct answer. Also if somone has something he wants and he can't get it he will ask a friend to get it, they snatch it then they are in trouble. So they alos are worrying about him 'manipulating' others.

So the upshot is, if he is first in line, in cgarge and winnning all is well. If not it all goes a bit Pete Tong......

Any thoughts, stratergies much appreciated.

Thanks.

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exbury · 08/05/2007 11:40

the challenge is how to make him a "good" member of the school without squashing it entirely - as it will actually get him a long way in life.

Sorry not sure I have much constructive to add - DS has the same issues although not quite to the same extent - he is a bad winner and a worse loser...will watch with interest

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Piffle · 08/05/2007 11:41

Gosh he sounds like one very very clever little lad.
Does he thump anyone when he is with you?
If not then the school needs to use its own policy and then you follow it up at home - privileges withdrawls etc Show him better ways to resolve the situation himself. Rewards/praise for changing behaviours.the school and you need to be united though.

Good luck, i'm sure such a clever lad will understand and make some adjustments.

Is he sporty? Might be top candidate for mini/tag rugby - not at all brutal or some judo/karate which also teaches self discipline?

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Porpoise · 08/05/2007 11:42

Will have to have a little ponder, DrN, before I can suggest a strategy.
BUT thought I'd say first that the competitive thing is incredibly common in 5/6 year-old boys.
Alos think it rather OTT than he is thought to be 'manipulating' others at 5. Rather strong language to use, I think.
Shall return to the this thread in a sec..

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PrettyCandles · 08/05/2007 11:42

Channel, not curb!

Also google NAGC (National assoc of gifted childrn). He sounds like a candidate!

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DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 11:47

Yes you are right - channel not curb!! He is sporty but as yet does no out of school sport like activities. I need to put that into place.

I too thought manupulation was rather strong for a 5 year old, but it goes back to me feeling that ds's teacher has an issue with him personally. But that's another story, the meeting was going well and I don't want to be seen as having a personal issue with his teacher.

Not only did they mention manipulation but also low self esteem, which as far as my ds is concerned can not be further away from the truth.

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Lazycow · 08/05/2007 11:48

sorry I know it isn't funny but I find myself lol at 'asking others to get it for him' The boy will go far!!

Seriously though - he does seem bright if he always gets the right answer when he doesn't seem to be paying attention. Maybe he is a bored accademically.

I do think the 'thumping' when someone challenges him needs to be addressed, the rest is actually quite funny. Is he the same at home? - i.e if he loses does he get really upset ? (mind you what 5 year old boy doesn't?)

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Nikki76 · 08/05/2007 11:49

Line him up for future series of the Apprentice and have very proud mummy emoticon when he wins! Nowt wrong with leadership - it gets you places these days! Look at the Sugarman!!

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thedogsbollox · 08/05/2007 11:49

My DD was very like this - used to hate losing at anything.

We addressed it by becoming a board game playing family and making sure that she lost regularly. We then taught her to manage her anger in this scenario in a safe home environment.

Having said that, DD is a highly compliant child in a school setting. It was more that she became emotionally upset than physically violent.

I think you have to start by addressing the violence. Any incidents where he kicks out must be dealt with severely by you even if they occur at school.

In essence what you need to lose at home is any indication at all that he is 'top dog'. So you need to look closely at the way in which family decisions are taken, whose demands take priority, whether he is manipulating you and his environment to feed his need to be on top. Then you need to counteract this with strategies which put him at the bottom. So he is served dinner last when you eat together. His tv programs are not automatically selected by the family. His desire for a game of football doesn't get met ahead of your need to sit and read the newspaper etc.

I suspect it will be pretty brutal in the early days, with lots of tantrums etc but you need to reassure him of your love and then move swiftly on.

There is a book called 'The manipulative child' which is very very good with tips for managing high maintenance children, despite its awful title!

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Porpoise · 08/05/2007 11:51

Ok, have dredged memory for our tactics when ds1 turned super-competitive:

  1. Play lots of 'chance' games at home - like Uno, Ludo etc ? and don't let him win all the time. If he does win, 'model' gracious losing (Oh dear, I lost - well done, ds. I enjoyed playing with you). If he loses, ride out the storm as best you can and praise any microscopic attempt to keep a lid on his disappointment.
  2. Get involved in a sport where losing is common - like tennis.
  3. Separate the competitiveness thing from the aggression thing. It's OK to be upset that you've lost/you're not in charge but it's not OK to push/hit anyone else. Maybe help him by coming up with a form of words/non-aggressive action he can use when he feels cross. Ds1 used to clench and unclench his fist (inside his trouser pocket) until he felt the anger go.

Any help?
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exbury · 08/05/2007 11:54

I wasn't going to say, but..

manipulation? seems v. strong - I would say that personal issue (like he's brighter than his teacher and she can't deal with it) is closer to the mark. DS's brilliant teacher seems to have no issues - she explains what they want him to do (put your hand up and wait even though you always know the answer) why (give other people a chance) and what's in it for him (star chart) and seems to get results. If DS is not paying attention in class could it be that she needs to find ways of challenging him more?

Did the school have any constructive suggestions, or are they trying to dump the "problem" on you?

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DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 12:13

thedogsbollox - alot of your post hit home actually. He is top dog at home. He is an obly child and we allow him to watch his TV pogrammes over and above ours, we play with him when he asks etc etc.

Poropise - the game playing suggesstion is good. Will put this into practice and try to help him come to terms with his fear of losing!! And yes, I need to reiterate that being disapointed in losing is good, but being agressive is not. Thank you.

Exbury - the school were actually very positive. She did talk about his good points, his excellent imagination, fantastic general knowledge and his enthusiasm, but she does come down quite hard on him regrding his negative points. I sense she thinks he is cocky and arrogant. She did mention that he quite often comments on what she is saying when she is teaching

She asked me how he bahaves on play dates and I said no major problems. She mentioned that she had heard that at the last birthday party he attended he was the one that was dificult to control, which kind of confirms to me that there is an element of playground gossp here as she wasn't even there!

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exbury · 08/05/2007 12:14

...but I do agree with the previous posters about making sure he loses at things (games of chance, etc) - we are getting there slowly with DS - win or lose if he does it well we play again (assuming he wants to )- if he gloats on winning or strops about losing then the game goes away.

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exbury · 08/05/2007 12:18

sounds like some taking turns is needed at home as well, then - especially if he is similarly "assertive" at parties. I sometimes think we have sat on DS too hard as all the other mothers at school seem to think he is shy and retiring (they obviously haven't asked their DCs ) but he does get the concept of taking turns now.

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DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 12:21

Lol at 'assertive' It wasn't even a game playing party, just a bouncy castle type thing, lots of E numbers and running around.....

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Porpoise · 08/05/2007 12:23

DrN, you know what? Although it must be horrible to hear these things from your ds's teacher right now, please take some comfort from the fact that she's raising these concerns now before they become a real, embedded issue in the class.
Your ds is very young and all the things you described can, I'm sure, be sorted out quite quickly.
In contrast, there is one boy in ds1 class whose aggressive /difficult behavour has been a problem since Reception. The school did v. little about it. They are all now in Yr 4 and this boy is now 'typecast' as the troublemaker: almost impossible for him to change now.
So, in a weird kind of way, you have cause to be grateful. I'm sure, by the end of term, things will be very different

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DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 12:25

Yes I know. It is too easy to get defensive I guess when it comes to your kids. I will think positively!!

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thedogsbollox · 08/05/2007 12:25

Northener - I think the book would be interesting for you in that case

The book starts from the premise that some children (usually highly intelligent ones) learn quickly as young children how to modify their environment to suit their needs rather than the other way round. These children then move into an environment which they cannot manipulate to suit them (like school!) and their skills at coping and modifying their own behaviour to fit in, aren;t well enough developed and so all hell brakes loose.

The other kicking off point can be a campaign of sibling rivalry when new babe comes along and 1st child can't get everything on demand in the way they used to and frustration spills out and family life becomes a battle field.

The book gives some excellent and very practical guidance as to how to deal with this and to help these children acquire the skills they need to work with, rather than against the environments they are placed in.

Good luck

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exbury · 08/05/2007 12:29

So if the party was a general riot (the best kind at 5, I think) then how was your DS "difficult to control"?

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DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 12:33

Off to amazon to look for that book. It's not one I will display on my bookshelf though!!!

Exbury yes the party was a general riot, and I certainly don't think my ds was any worse then some of the other boys. Infact he sat for about 15 minutes playing with the babies in the soft play section.

But there does seem to be a contigency of Mums with SMUG written accross there foreheads at this school.

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Porpoise · 08/05/2007 12:34

Don't you worry about them, DrN - they will get their comeuppance at some point!

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exbury · 08/05/2007 13:58

they must be v. secure in their smugness if they reported back to the teacher - even if someone else's DC was being a monster at a party (and it doesn't sound as if your DS was) I would think "there but for the grace of god...." - and I certainly wouldn't be looking to pass it on!

Just picture the reunions when DS is running the world and their DC have boring, conformist jobs

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DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 14:09

the more I reflect on this comment the angrier I am tbh. It confirms that ds's teacher has been chatting about my ds's behaviour with other mums. How unprofessional is that? And even more so to pass on that little gem to me.

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exbury · 08/05/2007 14:19

It would be interesting to know how it came about - but at the same time you don't want to pick a fight... DS's teacher has DCs in the school so she is often in the situation of being both a mother and a teacher and I am sure she hears stuff about the children in her class. As you say, your DS's teacher shouldn't have passed it on, though!

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DrNortherner · 08/05/2007 14:31

I know, how much it pissed me off I must put it to one side I guess.

Next step is ds has a birthday party this month for 4 girls in his class (3 of which I suspect have smug mums)

I am wondering now if it's a good thing to let him go.....

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carocaro · 08/05/2007 18:47

A book called Come on Digby by Jane Church might help, it's about a dog on a farm who bosses the sheep about and shouts at them froma helicopter as they won't listen to him and do what he wants, then he realises that when he asks/plays nicely he learns that minding you manners can help you get what you want! The right age for a 5 year old

Just an idea!

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