HELP!! I really, REALLY need some words of wisdom..

[crystalpony]

My dd is four and is very hard work to the point that I hate to say it but I get almost no enjoyment whatsoever out of being in her company. She is bolshy and bad tempered and every day feels like I'm tiptoeing through a minefield. She is wonderfully behaved at school and in company.

I have done everything I can to try and modify her behaviour (and mine) so that we can get along. She is bright and confident, has bags of character and is often hysterically funny and I'm thankful for that but she debates everything I say and it always escalates as she cannot leave well alone when I start getting cross. I walk away but she will follow me and actually begin to berate me and insult me and I know I need to be the adult but it feels like continual abuse.

There is tension every day. I wake up feeling that today will be a good day but it nearly always ends with me wanting to or actually crying because we have had words. Twice this week she has thrown food at me whilst I've been driving. Once because I had taken the wrapper of the biscuit - she wanted to do it - so she said "I'm not eating THAT!' and threw it at me. Then I had a little bite of a cheese thing she was eating, which she offered - as I passed it back she burst into furious tear because I had put my germs on it and again threw it at me. I just cannot do anything right for her, I get upset then really cross that she came into my life and makes me so miserable.(I'm sorry, I know it sounds self-absorbed) Even the good times are hard to enjoy sometimes as there is resentment hanging over them (on my part)from an earlier confrontation. She is also very finicky, with everything having to be just so and with the rules constantly changing so basically any intervention from me causes hysterics - I have no idea from one day to the next what her new methods of needing to do things are. It makes me so anxious. Some might say perhaps she needs to be like this for security or whatever but why? She has a secure family in me and her dad who are desperately trying to make her childhood happy.

I love this child so much and I desperately want to love the experience of being her mother but it is so hard.

How can I sort this out? Sorry for long post and thanks xx

[sunnysideup]

Crystal, have to say that I think your DD is at the height of a bossy phase, this seems really really common with girls; I posted on a thread the other day where a mum was asking "are all 4 yr old girls bossy?"; concensus was yes they ALL are!! It is a phase though, as everything is I bet you she will become less controlling over things as she gets older. My neice was extremely bossy at 4, really quite insufferable, poor girl, but she's six now and a delight.


As I'm sure you're already trying to do, don't get into arguments and debates with her. If you are saying no to something, explain why, repeat once, then simply tell her that you are not talking about it any further (and stick to it!)

Once with my ds I had to do this, my refusal to discuss it made him mad and he followed me around the house ranting at me, so I went to my bedroom and shut the door on him for a couple of minutes, calmed myself, and thought about what I would do with him when I opened the door; finger painting on our patio doors was always a favourite activity of ds', so I just came out planning to do that, got started, and eventually ds couldn't resist joining in and we moved on.

It really, really is key to be able to move on. I know that feeling of burning with internal anger but breathe deeply, visualise your glass of wine and mag waiting for you after bedtime, and MOVE ON.

Your dd as a child, as all children, is reactive and will endlessly react....it's up to you to give her different stuff to react to, to stop the arguments dead so that she can move on.

If she's completely changing the rules all the time, let her do things for herself - just tell her that you can't know what she wants done as she changes the rules, she must show you....

[crystalpony]

Thanks sunny. Of course, when it all subsides, we spend ages hugging and talking about how much we love each other and don't want to fight etc. People do say it's a phase and hope they are right because there are always those who say "Ooh it only gets worse you know, ha, ha!!" and really, that can make me feel quite sick on the really bad days.

My dh is always saying she's not the only four year old to behave this way, which is of course true, but I want her to have really happy memories of her childhood and worry that all she remember is the constant hassle (although she instigates it). It is such a battle and she will say 'come on mummy, lets get over it now' which makes me feel even worse because you're right about needing to move on.

Thanks for the encouragement, I appreciate it. Today feels a bit like the darkest hour TBH, I have cried my eyes out so hopefully, it can only improve with a bit more of a positive attitude on my part

[Balls]

Sounds to me like you are getting the tail end of a very tired child after a day of effort at school to be perfect. In a way it is a compliment because she feels she can relax around you! Do you give her a snack and some water when you pick her up from school? It can save lives....

[crystalpony]

I'd like to think she may be tired after school but it's the fact that the day starts the same way... she is fine for a few minutes whilst she comes around from sleep then she will start whingeing about something or other and it degenerates from there. Of course, she's fine when everything goes her way. I was away last week without her (first time ever) and my dh said she was fine, which of course she was because she had all her own way plus presents from daddy as bribery all week (sweets, new toys etc) and no bedtime routine. He admitted it would be difficult to get her back into her routine after the cushy week she'd had, to wish I obviously replied 'well why didn't you keep up her sodding routine then!!' He really does not help the situation but that is another story.

He thinks I am too emotional and should be able to distance myself from that side of things when dealing with her.

Oh to be a bloody robot like him eh?!

[Balls]

Actually I think you've hit on something there about the robot thing. There was a TV docu about managing child behaviour a few years back where the therapist recommended a system that remove all emotion from the battles. It involved setting out simple rules. Teh child started with x pence a day. More could be earned or deducted according to compliance with rules. No banter allowed, just enforcement of rule. Had an AMAZING effect - tricky at first, but gave both parent and child some mental space to work out their issues.

Another thing - have you tried this:
IGNORE all bad behaviour
PRAISE/REWARD any good behaviour
INTERRUPT dangerous behaviour
OFFER CHOICES

BOL

[crystalpony]

Think I have tried all of that but it always, always degenerates - usually ends up with me being called 'stupid mummy' or some such, which I try to ignore, but if I don't react, she often gets more abusive, it's as if she needs to know that she has hit the target. I don't know why. It can't be attention seeking as she genuinely gets my undivided attention 99 per cent of the possible time. She may say shes loves me one minute and turn on me the next and I'm afraid I do find that hurtful.

I would love to adopt that detatched robot stance to it but I want her to understand that it's ok to show your emotions and that you shouldn't bottle things up, but I don't know, as her mum, I suppose I should set more of an example as someone in control and strong or whatever. It's so difficult to know what is the right approach and it may sound silly but it feels like everyday spent like this is precious time forever lost from her childhood y'know?

[crystalpony]

I have to say, when she's being nice, she really is a wonderful gregarious child and I just wish she was on a even keel more often and that I could find a way to show her how to chill, but I just can't seem to get anywhere at all.

[Balls]

Doesn't sound silly at all. My middle one odes this to me quite often and I find it distressing as I feel I invest most time and emotion on her. Strangely she is far worse when I spend more time exclusively with ehr eg after illness or special treat - it's as thought she is fighting to gain ultimate control of my attention to her exclusively. so what you say really rings a bell with me.

Do you have any chance to sepnd a day or two away from her just to get some respite - these things can spiral downwards unless you get headspace?

[crystalpony]

Yes, now and again and I really do enjoy being away to be honest. I think the whole control thing is key really, she so used to my being at her beck and call that she almost treats me like staff! As I said to my dh, if I was treated like this in the workplace (because caring for her is my full-time job) I would have left long ago (and she would have been sued!! )

I think that perhaps I should back off and let her fend for herself for a bit - perhaps I coddle her too much. Let he be frustrated and give up trying to read her moods (she's a woman like me after all!!)

Do you know, I feel much more optimistic for talking about it, thank you!

[Balls]

Talking things out can help clarify things. I don't understand how that works but it seems to. Anyway, have a good night's sleep - I know I need to before my little tyrants jump on me in the wee hours!

[crystalpony]

Yes, thanks Balls, night x

[colditz]

Personally, any referrance to stupid mummy in this house would result in 4 minutes in his bedroom, because I am not staff, I am in charge, because I am 26 and he is 4.

Don't let her speak to you like this, it's appalling. Make her leave the room and go be rude to her teddies.

But I would also say - she shouldn't be able to change the rules, because children need rules to stay the same, and they need mummy and daddy to be in charge, not utterly bendable to the will of a 4 year old. She will get more abusive if you don't react, that just means she is fighting to make you react to her. I think 4 year olds are not so much attention seeking as reaction seeking.

Good luck with this, 4 year olds are very difficult, aren't they?

[sunnysideup]

I agree colditz; there's bad behaviour you can ignore, but insults like name calling etc, genuinely nasty stuff, she needs strong boundaries; as you say, four minutes in her room each and every time. We only had to put ds in his room a few times ever, and now if he's being really impossible, just asking him if he wants to go to his room on his own is enough to stop him.

I do agree about not letting her change rules; even though kids try to bend them and change them all the time, they do respond extremely well in the end, to knowing exactly what the boundaries are.

And yes crystal, do much less FOR her, then she has less to moan about if you do things 'wrong'; I saw my dh helping ds to dress one morning, and he was getting crosser and crosser as ds flopped around, banged him on the head and generally became irritating, dh started to raise his voice etc etc etc. All DH needed to do was let ds know, if you want my help, stand up so I can help. Then if silliness continued, DH just needed to say "OK, you do it yourself then". They need to know you have a limit on how much you will help and that depends on them meeting you halfway.

Good luck x

[dejags]

CP you DD sounds so like my DS at a similar age in many respects. Although has never called me names he is very challenging and at nearly 6 years old the challenges are becoming more complicated.

Respect and consistency are key in these types of situations imo. I agree with Colditz that a four minute time out would be a good way of handling this.

Whilst walking away is a very good course of action for you (it allows you to regroup) I think it tells the older toddler/child that they have the upper hand as there is no consequence to their behaviour. In fact, if I walk away with my DS he often just gets louder and louder in order to be heard.

Good luck.

[crystalpony]

Thanks all for your advice. It helps just to know that others have experienced it and your endorsement of the rules I am trying to enforce gives me extra confidence to just knuckle down and show her how things are going to be around here from now on!!

This morning I was purposely light hearted with her and encouraged her to do stuff herself, find her own shoes, pour her own milk (she spilt it and was about to meltdown but I just busied her on her way, tidied it up and got on with it.
Just need to remember to be positive and not let her get to me. We both spoke to her and explained what the actual consequences of her actions will be from now on, we've never actually set out our rules to her before, it's always been quite reactionary as the day went on but now I believe she knows what's at stake and hopefully, with time, this will address her behaviour and give me back the lovely little girl that she can be, more of the time.

Thanks again you lot XX

[MMG]

this is an intresting read.....my ds is a bit younger, he is approching 3 but he seems to now seek a reaction rather than the attention, its as if he tries to wind me up to get me cross especially when his is tired or hungry. At times i just walk away and ignore him but he follows and ask me if i`m happy! He does have rules and bounderies but likes to push to see how far he can go....little rascles hey!

[crystalpony]

Got to say, its been better today simply because I've kind of took the heat off myself, stopped doing myself down and now intend to stop tiptoeing around her - let the storm kick up and pray for the sunshine afterwards!!!!

[Othersideofthechannel]

"I want her to have really happy memories of her childhood and worry that all she remember is the constant hassle (although she instigates it)"

I wonder how much they remember this sort of stuff. DS is 4 and has an amazing memory about places we've been to once before a year ago but when I ask him at bedtime, 'what was the best part about today' he always says, 'all of it' even if it has been one of those days where things between us have been very like your description in your OP.

[crystalpony]

Yes, she's always gets over stuff a lot quicker than I do..it tends to fester in me but I do worry because she will refer to something that happened say a year ago, just little details and I think if she remembers that she might remember what I perceive to be bad stuff too if you see what I mean?

I don't remember much about my early childhood to be honest, certainly nothing really negative but it's just that so many days are the same, it's starting to feel like the majority of her childhood so far has been like this.

BUT! Like I said, I am determined to focus. At dinner tonight, she was refusing to eat and when dh insisted she tried her food she said (and it embarrasses me to say this but..) "If you don't stop trying to tell me what to do daddy I will get your wine and pour it on your head, would you like that!!" (she also reached for his glass) Well!!!!! She was taken directly to her bedroom and she wouldn't apologise so her dinner was taken up too..she shouted for several minutes that she wasn't allowed to eat in her bedroom (damn!) but we said she would be doing on this occasion. Anyway, she cooled off, ate all her dinner, apologised and was back to model child in a matter of 15 minutes. Result!!!!

[crystalpony]

Got to say, I had to stifle a laugh when she threatened to winewash dh as I've often been tempted myself! , but glad I didn't and that we took a stand.

[Balls]

Sorry, going to butt in here. Choice is important to all of us, as is the feeling of being in control. Actually it is quite easy to bend children to our will because we are bigger and stronger than them etc. But the outcome we want to achieve is not just compliant behaviour is it/ We want the child to recognise why one choice is more appropriate and desirable than another one. So, (and this may sound like pandering, but believe me it isn't and it works like a dream), offer choices. E.g. in response to an insult: "I don't like being spoken to in that way. So please don't talk to me like that. If you feel cross, go and shout at your football or other inanimate object (please not teddies!). If you want to spend time with me then you need to find another way of talking to me." If the child is in a temper this is too long-winded so "Either go somewhere else or be polite to me". Consequences need to be relevant or they are simply a punishment. E.g. If you want to stay at the table with us, then you need to behave politely. Otherwise please go and play quietly somewhere else. And I would be much happier if you would eat your food. - No outcome if child chooses to not eat it. Just ignore it as it is reaction-seeking.

Phew, big lecture, sorry!

[Sossy]

Sorry, I'd just like to add my opinion too, and I hope it doesn't offend you. I agree fully with Balls, personally I'd favour her approach.

I hope you don't mind me saying, (hopefully you wont mind an outsiders view) but I think your approach was far too harsh for a 4 yr old, but I also think your general reaction to her behaviour is slightly OTT. My little girl has just turned 5, and she acted in the same way as this when she was 4. But I have no desire to turn her into a robotic creature... you know, the type who's forced to apologise when it really isn't sincere, just to save face. I'm not as sensitive to her behaviour, I let it run its course and she soon gets over it. Busy busy seems to be the key too, as soon as it starts busy her with something else and completly ignore the outburts. I know this isn't always the solution, and although of course I could be completely wrong, it almost seems as if your inner fears encourage it.Children are clever little buggers and really can sense any fear or insecurity you think you are hiding!

[CoteDAzur]

My dd is not even 2, so feel free to ignore this, but I feel my own experience (and current relationship) with my mother bears some relevance:

You say she is "wonderfully behaved in school and in company" so the problem is when she is alone with you. This sounds like what I was like with my mother as a child, and the reason was that I felt she was weak, and that there would be no grave consequences for being generally disrespectful to her. For comparison, I would never behave this way to my father, who I knew would never take it.

What I am trying to say is, maybe you could try putting more strict rules of behaviour, and sticking to them: if you insult mommy you go to your room until you are ready to speak respectfully, if you throw your food at mommy you don't get anything else to eat until next mealtime, etc.

I don't believe this would be akin to turning her into a robot. This is about basic rules of behaviour, not to mention respect, especially towards her parents. Ignoring her bad behaviour might not be the best way of teaching her good behaviour.

I hope that helps. Good luck xxx

[crystalpony]

Thanks for these views.. I believe the problems are down to my insecurity in dealing with her to an extent in that there are cycles when her behaviour is so off that I get more and more timid in taking her to task because I just can't bear another meltdown. Sossy, I appreciate you felt I was a bit harsh with her. I think it was a case of drawing a line in the sand that would stand out to her as the day when mummy and daddy took control again IYSWIM? We have let her behaviour slide but decided that it was time to knuckle down again.

I also think that my own childhood experience has a lot to do with my parenting. I remember distinctly if I was naughty or whatever, my mum and dad, instead of just berating me and getting on with it, it would be "oh, we don't like little girls who do this or that" I always felt it was cruel to say they didn't like me so I've always been careful not to treat my dd like that and probably I've gone to far the other way and talked her up so much that she's over confident of what she can get away with.. also my mum and dad say stuff like that to her now - it REALLY winds me up!! Obviously, they dont mean it, but I just think it's mean. Either that or my dad especially will just ignore her completely if she speaks out of turn, which is fair enough, but that will go on ALL DAY. (HE didn't speak to me for six months when I was 15 for coming in half an hour late) so, this is the example I have had and like I say, think I've gone too far the other way to try and avoid those emotional blackmail type tactics.

Having said all this, we've had a brill weekend, so I think we're coming out of the abyss!!!!!